A Reason Why Rank Might Be Important

Gerry Seymour

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There are plenty of car collectors who would vehemently disagree with you.
And while I can't see myself ever owning a car just for looking at (I'd always want to be able to drive it), a car that looks nice but doesn't run fits their needs if that's all they want it for. It feels like it's stretching the analogy a bit (since the car presumably wasn't made that way), but it makes the point.
 

Dirty Dog

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And while I can't see myself ever owning a car just for looking at (I'd always want to be able to drive it), a car that looks nice but doesn't run fits their needs if that's all they want it for. It feels like it's stretching the analogy a bit (since the car presumably wasn't made that way), but it makes the point.

I drive mine, too. But that's me.
Go find the owner of the one and only High Impact Vitamin C Hemi Cuda Convertible build in 1970 and tell him he should be driving it. Don't be surprised if his response isn't friendly.
There is only one 1983 Corvette in the world. Go find it and try to drive it. Wear a vest though.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I drive mine, too. But that's me.
Go find the owner of the one and only High Impact Vitamin C Hemi Cuda Convertible build in 1970 and tell him he should be driving it. Don't be surprised if his response isn't friendly.
There is only one 1983 Corvette in the world. Go find it and try to drive it. Wear a vest though.
Agreed. And this is where the analogy actually stops being stretched. I wouldn't buy either of those cars (assuming I had enough money to comfortably do so), because they simply wouldn't meet my need. But they work for those folks, even though "work" isn't the same thing to them it would be to me.
 

Martial D

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I drive mine, too. But that's me.
Go find the owner of the one and only High Impact Vitamin C Hemi Cuda Convertible build in 1970 and tell him he should be driving it. Don't be surprised if his response isn't friendly.
There is only one 1983 Corvette in the world. Go find it and try to drive it. Wear a vest though.

I guarantee that car runs. In fact, I've never met anyone that collected cars that would be satisfied with a non running vehicle.

If anything collectors spend more time and love maintaining the functionality of their vehicles.
 

Dirty Dog

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I guarantee that car runs. In fact, I've never met anyone that collected cars that would be satisfied with a non running vehicle.

If anything collectors spend more time and love maintaining the functionality of their vehicles.

Speaking only of the Corvette (because I don't know where the 'Cuda is) I will say you can guarantee that it could be made to run. But I'm quite sure it will not run without a little work. Because it's in the National Corvette Museum, and has been for quite some time. Seals and such break down faster when the car is not used. So the cars in this environment are 'clean' in the sense that they have no fluids in them. No functioning battery. So at the least, it would need new seals, plugs, wires, a battery, and all the fluids replaced before it could be made to run. It would probably need new rubber, since there's a really really good chance that the original rubber from 1983 is dry rotted beyond the point of safety. Same thing applies to things like brake lines and fuel lines.
You can also pull an awful lot of cars out of a junkyard, do exactly the same thing, and make them run. There's a show called Roadkill that routinely does just that. So in many ways, some of the rarest collector cars are functionally the same as a junkyard car.
 
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PhotonGuy

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grade not rank. rank has hierarchy built into it. its a military term. and a vestige of Japanese Karate and Judo (from a karate viewpoint)
Rank, grade, level, whatever you want to call it. Although I see why you might want to call it grade instead of rank for the reasons you mention.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Indeed. And if that same person tells me they have a black belt, nothing changes. There are a ton of 'black belts' with next to 0 practical fighting ability.
That depends where they got their black belt. A black belt in BJJ you would probably want to take seriously.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Seeing someone in action is not necessary to evaluate how long they've been training and thus their knowledge level. It is fairly simple to converse with someone and figure out how experienced they are based on their responses and understanding.

You'll understand this better later on in your martial arts journey. :)
Nevertheless somebody might ask you first about your rank and style, before they get into detailed conversation with you about the arts. Not everybody might ask you that first but some people will.
 
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PhotonGuy

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No. you dont have a lot of seniors telling juniors what to do (rank). A junior ask the liberty to ask qualified people for help.

Its a heirachy of competence vs a hierarchy of mere tradition and rank. You can get rank and be incompetent. Thats what politics often is about in kodansha level stuff.

Leave your org... join mine... i will give you your next dan. JC Shin stole a teacher from someone, in exchange for his next dan rank. It happens far too often.

Their are always going to be heirachies. But there are different types of heirachy and culture.

Itosu backwards... we didnt have the military culture rank type heirachy. It was heirachy of competance.
All martial arts schools have a hierarchy even those that don't use ranks or grades. I once had a friend who trained in a chinese style where you started on day one with a uniform and a red belt. Your belt color did not change and your uniform did not change. You started with a red belt and you finished with a red belt. There were no patches or anything to denote any kind of rank or grade. But there was a hierarchy. There was the hierarchy of instructor-student. So all martial arts schools do have a hierarchy, if nothing else the instructor-student hierarchy.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Or school has a culture of encouraging people to achieve things. You walk away with the belt. You walk away with the new job. Or ten kilos lighter or whatever you have set as goal for yourself.

Good work. Be proud of that.

Belts are an achievement of years of blood sweat and tears. They are important.
That's a good way to run a martial arts school if you ask me. And that's why its important for an instructor to know a student's goals.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Unless they aren't. There's more than a few FasTrack/online school/mail-order/mcdojo black belts out there.
That's why when asking about what rank or grade you've earned lots of people will also ask where and how you got it.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Well, I was trying to avoid calling out specific brands of karate... You have done the favor for me. Shotokan could be an exemplar of this. But it is certainly not exclusive to Shotokan.

"Is There FEAR, in THIS Dojo?"
[Class in unison]:
"NO SENSEI!!!"


While it is a movie, Tang Soo Do had a number of influences upon its creation. The Cobra Kai maybe hyperbolic in nature... but it wasn't too far off from a number of dojang and dojo that I have seen and heard about.
John Kreese is an excellent example of why martial arts classes should not be run like the military.
 
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PhotonGuy

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When I was young going into a taekwodo school with a white belt and showing up the black belts caused problems.
In BJJ that's called sandbagging and its frowned upon.
 
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PhotonGuy

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To me it's no different than keeping a car around that doesn't run because you enjoy waxing the thing.
Maybe you want to get good at blocking, the same reason why you might enjoy sanding decks and painting fences and houses.
 
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PhotonGuy

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And while I can't see myself ever owning a car just for looking at (I'd always want to be able to drive it), a car that looks nice but doesn't run fits their needs if that's all they want it for. It feels like it's stretching the analogy a bit (since the car presumably wasn't made that way), but it makes the point.
Well there are some people who collect guns and never fire them.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Well there are some people who collect guns and never fire them.
I happen to have one of that nature. It's from the Spanish-American war (I think), and belonged to my Great-Grandfather (though I don't think he was the original user if it was from the Spanish-American war - he wasn't that old). It's a cool old gun. I doubt I could get ammo for it without having someone custom-load some.
 

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For those who don't actually care about fighting ability, I don't think it does destroy their brand. If someone's intention is to train specifically for WT(F) competition, because they think it looks like a bunch of fun and they like the competitive element, then why should they train somewhere that's going to try to teach them to do something different? If someone just wants to learn to do floor gymnastics, still ring is a distraction from what they want to do.

So, yeah, in some cases it's really only about what the participants want from it. It used to drive me nuts (and still makes me itch) to see what I consider bad martial arts. But if the people aren't being told it's effective for some other purpose and aren't being taught things that will harm their body (bad technique that exposes joints to RSI, for instance), then really, why should I get any say in the matter?

Where people are trying to make money and deliver skills though. And where they have no clue.

We have created the vehicle for them to do that in our acceptance of everything being basically equivalent.

All systems are equal. Rank doesn't matter. Everyone gets a medal.
 

Gerry Seymour

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In that case, I agree. I think it's a good idea (for programs that aim to teach for competition or for self-defense) if the rank (at least early on) means something observable about your ability. I won't award a rank to someone just because they can do the techniques I test for - they need to be able to handle sparring and such at a reasonable level. Barring outside training and extremes of personal aggression, I'd expect one of my green belts (third belt) to be able to "beat" one of my yellow belts (first belt) on a regular basis in sparring/rolling. Due to size differences, there might be some discrepancies in adjacent ranks, but not across two ranks (again, barring those exceptional cases).
 

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