A poll

[Kyosanim]

Hello everyone I have been doing some thinking lately, and I want to get a feel of what everyone else has to say. Think of this as a pole if you will. I would like to get opinions on the matter as well as anything else you feel relevant. Please leave your rank and the art you practice in your post. I am curious to see how varying levels of us through out the ranks think on these matters.

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal? Like eye gouging for instance. If someone assaults me can I really poke out their eye from a legal perspective? That is permanent damage!!! Can anyone spell law suite? If not you will after that. (This is just a thought if you can prove me wrong please do)
Personally I have a hard time wanting to do that to anyone. This would really change their life IE no more driving. At least shooting them in the leg prevents you from getting arrested for attempted murder, perhaps not other things but at least you wont end up in prison for attempted murder.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!

I recently found myself in a bad situation where I was nearly forced to fight three persons at once. I found my self at a loss. Kicks were to risky, a punch wouldn't put them down fast enough, joint locks would have been to time consuming, and I could not afford to get tied up with one while two others were free to move. Eye gouging seemed unnecessary for three drunk morons with something to prove but still where did that leave me? luckily it was outside my house so the police got there before I was forced to do something. It seems to me better to pull a small pocket knife and cut someone up a little than to take an eye or worse both of them. At least cuts heal. Eyes don't grow back. Then there is the issue of my black belt. Why is it that people think being a black belt makes you a super human killing machine?
Anyone can break a bored! Two or three is not really different. Cement yes that is hard to do, but back to the point. I feel like I no longer have the right to defend myself because I'm a black belt. Are we really counted as being armed without a weapon? That just does not seem reasonable to me!!!

All of this has brought me to this. How much is to much? What techniques are going to be useful? of these which ones are legal? I am especially curious about what practitioners of other arts think.

I practice TKD and so far I am not convinced this art has much for defense unless your planning on killing them.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I am a tkd black belt.
1. No , I wont question my instructor , he is a 7th dan and has been instructing for over 30 years and I am yet to see anything in his teachings that I would question.
2. Everything taught to us teaches methods/ideas etc that can be used to improve self defence. About 70% of what Im taught is directly practical self defence.
3. No assault is legal irrespective of what strikes you use but I can see where you are coming from. About half of what we learn is 'illegal' eye gouges , groin strikes etc and even our basic strikes (kicks and punches) we are taught to do to cause maximum damage. We can alter the way we do them to make them part of a combo or something but ultimately we are taught that if you strike it is to mame.
4. Multiple attackers means you're screwed no matter what martial art you know. People only win against multiple attackers in kung fu movies. Personally , id run for my life and would kick if I had to strike to maintain some distance so I can eventually run. Tkd , like all arts , if taught correctly from a self defence perspective is very useful in self defence. Unfortunately "sport" tkd is of little help when defending yourself.

 

[Blade96]

Shotokan karate, 8th kyu, yellow belt, been training almost 8 months

No I wouldn't question my sensei either. He is 7th dan and been doing it and training a very long time, he is in his sixties and i respect him a lot and we are friends and there's nothing about his teaching that i would wanna question either.

2. what ralph said, only about my style

3. I would disagree with ralph here, I mean lets face it. If you were attacked and you HAD to go for somebody's eye and you hurt them (like if you were gonna get raped or something) You did it to defend yourself, and the law says that is legal. Technically i dont believe there are 'illegal methods' when you are trying to save your life.

Multiple attackers - You'd have to be some good karateka (or w/e your art is) to be able to do well against like he said, 8 punches at once? holy crap! lol.

Kyo, you have the right to defend yourself if you got attacked. Black belt shmack belt. Its legal to use self defence if you were going to get hurt by some evil shmucks.

 

[Bruno@MT]

3d kyu modern jj a long time ago
9th kyu Genbukan ninpo

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? It is good to ask questions, but you discuss concerns in private, not in public, and you either respect his authority or you get out. Presumable your sensei knows what he is doing.

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations? That depends On how you are using your knowledge and how you trained.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal? Like eye gouging for instance. If someone assaults me can I really poke out their eye from a legal perspective? That is permanent damage!!! Can anyone spell law suite? If not you will after that. (This is just a thought if you can prove me wrong please do) Everything is legal if it is life or death. If you try to stab me to death, I won't get into trouble for gouging out your eyes. If you just shove me, gouging out your eyes is illegal for me. Know the law and make sure the response is warranted by the attack.


Personally I have a hard time wanting to do that to anyone. This would really change their life IE no more driving. At least shooting them in the leg prevents you from getting arrested for attempted murder, perhaps not other things but at least you wont end up in prison for attempted murder.
I don't even have a gun, but even I know that you NEVER fire a gun if you have no intention to kill. The whole 'shooting the leg' thing is invented either by someone who has never fired a gun, or a truly outstanding marksman. Because with a moving target, chances of actually hitting the leg are slim. It's much harder than it looks. and at close range, if you don't hit you are dead.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!
You run. Unless you have the fighting skills of Bas Rutten or Tanemura sensei, fighting multiple attackers is pretty much impossible if the attackers know what they are doing.

I recently found myself in a bad situation where I was nearly forced to fight three persons at once. I found my self at a loss. Kicks were to risky, a punch wouldn't put them down fast enough, joint locks would have been to time consuming, and I could not afford to get tied up with one while two others were free to move. Eye gouging seemed unnecessary for three drunk morons with something to prove but still where did that leave me?

You could run.

luckily it was outside my house so the police got there before I was forced to do something. It seems to me better to pull a small pocket knife and cut
someone up a little than to take an eye or worse both of them. At least cuts heal. Eyes don't grow back. Then there is the issue of my black belt. Why is it that people think being a black belt makes you a super human killing machine?

Uhuh. So then you will be charged with ASSAULTING a couple of drunks with a knife. As long as they don't attack, they are annoying drunks and YOU will be the one doing time.

Anyone can break a bored! Two or three is not really different. Cement yes that is hard to do, but back to the point. I feel like I no longer have the right to defend myself because I'm a black belt. Are we really counted as being armed without a weapon? That just does not seem reasonable to me!!!

Reasonable? You are not talking about defending yourself. You are talking about attacking a couple of drunks with a knife. Defense is where someone is attacking you. How can you have a black belt and not know this fundamental difference? And as a black belt, you should also know that from a SD pov, the defense should be warranted by the attack. A drunk yelling at you does not warrant attacking that person with a knife.

All of this has brought me to this. How much is to much? What techniques are going to be useful? of these which ones are legal? I am especially curious about what practitioners of other arts think.

I practice TKD and so far I am not convinced this art has much for defense unless your planning on killing them.

Sports TKD?

 

[MJS]

Hello everyone I have been doing some thinking lately, and I want to get a feel of what everyone else has to say. Think of this as a pole if you will. I would like to get opinions on the matter as well as anything else you feel relevant. Please leave your rank and the art you practice in your post. I am curious to see how varying levels of us through out the ranks think on these matters.

Kenpo: 3rd degree Black Belt, Modern Arnis: 1st degree Black Belt. Training: 24yrs.

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.

Sure, IMO, I see nothing wrong with asking questions. I dont think that we, as students, should fear our teachers, nor do I think that teachers should make us fear them. If I'm doing something, be it a technique, a kata, whatever, and I'm not sure of something, if I dont understand why we're doing a particular move, then yes, I'm going to ask, and yes, I'd like an answer.

I had a teacher way back, and I'd ask questions about kata. I'd ask about a particular move and what it was exactly that we were doing. Know what my answer was? "Well, we do that move because.................because thats the way its done in the kata." BZZZZZZZZ...sorry, wrong answer.

Now, I think it depends on the way the question is asked and what the situation is. For example: If he's showing me something, and its giving me a hard time, I'll ask what it is that I'm doing wrong. If you ask, in the middle of class, "I dont like this, I think it should be done this way." well, that wording probably isn't the best choice. I've had people question me and things that I've taught in the middle of a class. I always do my best to provide an answer, but I dont want to spend 3/4 of the class on that question, so there have been times when I've told the student to wait until after class and I'd help them then. Of course, my teachers and I have a very good relationship, so yes, many times during private lessons, I'll comment on techs. as will they.

Things should be relaxed and enjoyable. It shouldn't be a dictatorship.

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?

I'm going to be honest....there are things that are effective, and there are things that will get you hurt or killed. Sad part is, there're people who try to pass off everything as effective. Now, what I may feel to be ineffective, someone else may find effective, so to each his/her own. I'm honest when I teach. If there is something that I personally dont like, I tell them, but I also tell them that that is MY opinion...theres may differ. IMHO, things should follow the KISS principle.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal? Like eye gouging for instance. If someone assaults me can I really poke out their eye from a legal perspective? That is permanent damage!!! Can anyone spell law suite? If not you will after that. (This is just a thought if you can prove me wrong please do)
Personally I have a hard time wanting to do that to anyone. This would really change their life IE no more driving. At least shooting them in the leg prevents you from getting arrested for attempted murder, perhaps not other things but at least you wont end up in prison for attempted murder.

I had an interesting discussion with my Arnis inst. about this topic just last week. He's been training for quite some time, has 20+ yrs in the Dept. Of Corrections, and is pretty up to date of use of force laws.

I've started threads on here about this very topic....what we can/can't do in SD. If we look at many of our techs., what we see is pretty violent. Take Kenpo for example....techs. for a lapel grab, have the defender breaking/dislocating/hyperextending the arm. Is that necessary? Probably not. This is why I say that we should always assess the situation, and adjust our response accordingly.

So, can you poke someones eye? Sure, but again, the situation better warrant that response. If someone simply pushes me, no. If someone pulls a knife on me, sure, I'd take their eye. 2 different situations.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!

How many people are we talking here? 2? 10? Weapons? If you can get away by running, do so. However, that is the safe answer, the answer that everyone falls back on, but its not the best answer. What if you can't run? I'm no track star, so running will work for so long. My wife can't run as fast as I can, and I'm not leaving her behind. My mom can't run, so running is out there.

Back to your question...my suggestion would be to get aggressive. The odds are already stacked against you. If possible, pick up something to use as a weapon. If possible, try to stack them against each other. In other words, try to use one as a shield.

I recently found myself in a bad situation where I was nearly forced to fight three persons at once. I found my self at a loss. Kicks were to risky, a punch wouldn't put them down fast enough, joint locks would have been to time consuming, and I could not afford to get tied up with one while two others were free to move. Eye gouging seemed unnecessary for three drunk morons with something to prove but still where did that leave me? luckily it was outside my house so the police got there before I was forced to do something. It seems to me better to pull a small pocket knife and cut someone up a little than to take an eye or worse both of them. At least cuts heal. Eyes don't grow back. Then there is the issue of my black belt. Why is it that people think being a black belt makes you a super human killing machine?
Anyone can break a bored! Two or three is not really different. Cement yes that is hard to do, but back to the point. I feel like I no longer have the right to defend myself because I'm a black belt. Are we really counted as being armed without a weapon? That just does not seem reasonable to me!!!

All of this has brought me to this. How much is to much? What techniques are going to be useful? of these which ones are legal? I am especially curious about what practitioners of other arts think.

I practice TKD and so far I am not convinced this art has much for defense unless your planning on killing them.

How long have you been training? I ask this because if you've been training for a short time, you need to give it some time. If you've been training for 10yrs and you still feel you can't defend yourself, then IMO, theres a problem. I dont think that it should take 20yrs to learn to defend yourself, but on the other hand, you should be able, within a few months, be able to learn some effective skills.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello everyone I have been doing some thinking lately, and I want to get a feel of what everyone else has to say. Think of this as a pole if you will. I would like to get opinions on the matter as well as anything else you feel relevant. Please leave your rank and the art you practice in your post. I am curious to see how varying levels of us through out the ranks think on these matters.

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.
As others have stated, voice concerns in private and outside of class.

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?
Varies from school to school. It is important to understand the difference between specialized sport, cool arty stuff, stuff used to increase flexibility and strengthen the body, drills used for various training ends, and actual practical techniques.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal?

You need to ask someone versed in self defense laws in your area about that, someone qualified to answer the question.

Like eye gouging for instance. If someone assaults me can I really poke out their eye from a legal perspective? That is permanent damage!!! Can anyone spell law suite?

Yes, I can: L-a-w S-u-i-t, law suit. You spelled law suite, perhaps a term for the hotel suite rented by two lawyers?

If not you will after that. (This is just a thought if you can prove me wrong please do)
Personally I have a hard time wanting to do that to anyone. This would really change their life IE no more driving. At least shooting them in the leg prevents you from getting arrested for attempted murder, perhaps not other things but at least you wont end up in prison for attempted murder.

I don't know. If changing their life means preserving my own, then so be it. Certainly, I don't want to, but I also don't want to die or have my life changed on their account. The main issue is making sure that you are in need of preserving your life and making sure that you cannot resolve the conflict without resorting to that level of force. Avoidance is far more effective than fighting, and I find that many victims in crime are victims of their own lack of exercising common sense.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!
Position yourself accordingly and retreat. You are outnumbered. Don't let them flank you. Use their numbers against them. All eight cannot punch you at once unless you are flanked and encircled. Taking on eight guys is the stuff of movies. Bruce Lee never did it in real life (students don't count). Oh, and it isn't punches you need to be worried about, but weapons, so yes, retreat and escape.

I recently found myself in a bad situation where I was nearly forced to fight three persons at once. I found my self at a loss. Kicks were to risky, a punch wouldn't put them down fast enough, joint locks would have been to time consuming, and I could not afford to get tied up with one while two others were free to move. Eye gouging seemed unnecessary for three drunk morons with something to prove but still where did that leave me? luckily it was outside my house so the police got there before I was forced to do something.

Well, you could have gone inside and called the police. Or, you could, again, retreat. If they were drunk, you could probably have outrun them fairly easily. Let me ask you: were these three drunk morons whom you had never seen before or people that you knew or had had an earlier encounter with? This next part of your narrative leads me to believe the latter:

It seems to me better to pull a small pocket knife and cut someone up a little than to take an eye or worse both of them. At least cuts heal. Eyes don't grow back. Then there is the issue of my black belt. Why is it that people think being a black belt makes you a super human killing machine?

Suppose they pull out a large pocket knife (ever see Crocodile Dundee)? What then? Or suppose you get that major artery shot by accident and the man bleeds out in front of your house? Or suppose you have no clue as to how to fight with a knife? You have just given legal justification to one of these morons to defend himself against an armed attacker. If you are lousy with the knife and he gets control of the weapon (not that difficult a concept to grasp), now you have an armed opponent and two unarmed opponents, all of whom will be more likely to want to attack you.

And do they know that you have a black belt? Just curious because of your last question. If not, then why is your black belt an issue?

Anyone can break a bored! Two or three is not really different. Cement yes that is hard to do, but back to the point. I feel like I no longer have the right to defend myself because I'm a black belt. Are we really counted as being armed without a weapon? That just does not seem reasonable to me!!!

All of this has brought me to this. How much is to much? What techniques are going to be useful? of these which ones are legal? I am especially curious about what practitioners of other arts think.

I practice TKD and so far I am not convinced this art has much for defense unless your planning on killing them.

Wow! Now this is a first! TKD being poor for self defense because it is too deadly. Usually TKD is criticized for being worthless on the street because all taekwondoists do is spar in hogu with their hands down and throw kicks. Or criticized for instructors saying that it's too deadly for the ring to explain why taekwondoists lose in MMA fights or something along those lines. I've heard of people saying 'too deadly for competition' but I've never heard too deadly for the deadly street.

I think that the whole 'blackbelt = armed and dangerous in court' is more urban legend than fact, though I'll leave that for someone with a legal background to tackle.

I must say that I find it odd to be answering these questions to a poster called kyosanim. That kind of implies that you're the one running the class, not just a black-belt student. At your level, you should not have to be asking what you can and cannot do to defend yourself without killing or permanently injuring an opponent. What's with the eye gouges and pocket knives??? Whatever happened to maneuvering and maintaining distance while opening up an escape? Or taking out the knee of one of them with a low kick and thus impairing his mobility, allowing you to concentrate on the other two as you retreat?

Or just accepting that you may have to actually hurt them in order to avoid permanent injury to yourself, or worse?

Daniel

I practice hapkido, kumdo, and taekwondo, and hold a black belt in each. In taekwondo, which is the subject of your OP, I am second dan. My Kumdo rank is higher, but non-applicable to this discussion, as it is a sword art.

 

[dancingalone]

Please leave your rank and the art you practice in your post.

Yondan, Okinawan Goju-ryu. Nidan, Aikido (Aikikai)

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.

Yes. Part of learning is to think things through critically for oneself. I do not mind the occasional question, even during class. My own teacher is considerably less relaxed, and his teacher did not allow talking during class at all.

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?

Depends on the school and instructor really. ALL of the things I teach have self-defense application, but it's true enough that some of it won't work until one has years and years of practicing and conditioning. Heck, it takes a long time just to learn how to punch correctly with power and accuracy. Anything fancier will undoubtedly take longer and longer to master and be able to use effectively.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal?

I do teach the occasional eye jab or gauge since they are implied in some some of the kata or forms I teach. Legally speaking any self-defense move could get you in trouble, depending on the context your fight is in. Even a seemingly innocuous technique like palm heel can bring you jail time.

To restate another way, I teach karate bunkai which can often be brutal, but karate was and is a brutal fighting system. It's only in studying the more recent philosophical additions to karate that an attempt to mitigate the violence is made.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!

This is a longer exposition that I care to get into right now, but the key is not to treat the multiple attackers as separate people you have to defeat. The goal is to keep moving in a centered fashion, preferably on the edge of the group and interchange places time and time again with each attacker so that the group is constricted by their own numbers and their numerical advantage is lessened. You are really treating the group as one entity albeit one with octopus arm potential in attacks.

Clear as mud, I know.

All of this has brought me to this. How much is to much? What techniques are going to be useful? of these which ones are legal? I am especially curious about what practitioners of other arts think.

I practice TKD and so far I am not convinced this art has much for defense unless your planning on killing them.

You don't need a lot of techniques, if you understand each one highly and can use them appropriately with power at the right range. I've said before that knowing Pinan Yondan/Pyung Ahn Sa Dan (Won Hyo is probably the closest TKD hyung to this) is sufficient for self-defense.

The kata includes a front or side kick, elbows, sword hands, punches, inside blocks, grabs and pulls, and even a shoulder throw.

TKD can be an effective self-defense art. Unfortunately, it's not taught to be a self-defense art in many studios in the US today. It's become somewhat of a kiddie activity with self-improvement as a primary goal.

 

[blindsage]

Old brown belt in Kyokushin Karate, and some unranked training in Small Circle JJ. Currently 1 1/2 years into Bagua and Xingyi (no ranks).

Sounds to me that the problem isn't in the questions you've asked, but in the training you've had. To me it sounds like a lack of quality sparring and a severe lack of actual self-defense scenario training. It doesn't sound like a lack of quality technique or ability per se, but a lack of the awareness of real world situations and how your techniques can be applied realistically.

Punches and kicks can be totally realistic for SD, even multiple attackers, but you have to train them properly for that.

Joint locks can be totally realistic for SD, even multiple attackers, but you have to train them properly for that.

Plenty of very harmful, direct methods are legal and appopriate for SD, but it depends on the situation, and you have to train them properly for that.

My instructors says it is a requirement of a student to question what he is learning, not necessarily in class and/or rudely, but in general. I absolutely agree.

None of this means that you need to quit what you do, or that your instructor is necessarily bad, but it may mean that you need to supplement your current training, and it definitely means that you need to adjust your perception of SD and to use that new perception as a lens for learning MA from now on.

 

[Malleus]

Hello everyone I have been doing some thinking lately, and I want to get a feel of what everyone else has to say. Think of this as a pole if you will. I would like to get opinions on the matter as well as anything else you feel relevant. Please leave your rank and the art you practice in your post. I am curious to see how varying levels of us through out the ranks think on these matters.

Tang Soo Do-6 years, Boxing- 4 years, Muay Thai-1 year, BJJ- 2 years

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.

Yes. Blind faith is dangerous, no matter the arena. If you're concerned about the practicality of a technique, you're more than free to raise that concern. The teacher is not doing you a favour by teaching you, you're doing them a favour by being there. If you're worried about the teaching methods of your teacher, by all means raise them. You may be better off moving somewhere else though.


2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?

Depends on the school I suppose. RBSD is doubtlessly more effective than taking TSD three-step approaches to single moves. I think that any school that doesn't brutally pressure test their RBSD techniques against an angry, aggressive, resisting opponent (as far as possible) isn't worth attending. That goes double for TMA schools.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal? Like eye gouging for instance. If someone assaults me can I really poke out their eye from a legal perspective? That is permanent damage!!! Can anyone spell law suite? If not you will after that. (This is just a thought if you can prove me wrong please do)
Personally I have a hard time wanting to do that to anyone. This would really change their life IE no more driving. At least shooting them in the leg prevents you from getting arrested for attempted murder, perhaps not other things but at least you wont end up in prison for attempted murder.

I'm not very knowledgable on the law, but I'll say this: better to be sued than dead.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!

The trite answer is to avoid getting into that situation, or run if it develops. If you're back's to the wall, I think you have to stay on your feet. You have to be able to hit harder, more accurately and faster than the other guys. You have to be able to take a lot of hits and keep functioning. You have to go feral and bite someones ear off, gouge their eyes out, whatever it takes. You'll still probably lose, but bring a few of them to the hospital with you.

.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Yandan in iaido and jodo.
Plus kenjitsu, tanjo, niten ichi ryu.
11 years all in.

My MA is strictly weapons, while I have a good sense of timing and distancing, in a real fight without weapons I would be at a serious disadvantage. Against multiple attackers, I’ll be royally ****ed. If I couldn’t out run them, I’d make sure I put a few in hospital before it was over, by whatever means necessary. We are taught to take on one opponent at a time, but keeping a wide vision to see the next attacker.

My sensei encourages us to ask questions, and challenge him, it helps us all progress in the arts. He admits sometimes the questions we ask him, force him to think about things in ways he never considered before. Sometimes in class we get into real good discussions, but generally we save the heavy talks for beer afterwards.

My sensei and I disagree on many things outside the dojo, politics being one, but he knows and I know we would do anything for each other.

 

[Blade96]

My sensei and I disagree on many things outside the dojo, politics being one, but he knows and I know we would do anything for each other.

Just like me and my sensei!

 

[Haze]

Goju Ryu and training on and off for twenty years.

Much of what I have learned is directly related to self defense. What is illegal? Depends on what force is deemed needed to walk away alive.
Should I question my instructor? Yes I do. I can not just take any info as gospel just because my instructor is a 7th or 8th Dan. I even question what his instructor does. At a point in your training you can not remain being spoon fed by someone. You need to question things, you need to do your own research. You need to answer your own questions if an instructor can not

What do you do when you ask a question about something and the instructor says "because that's the way it was taught to me"

Not a good answer. What is there to say what he was taught is valid, is correct pertaining to the style/system he calaims to be teaching.

I've seen goju schools that have added 20 kata to the curriculum. Why? I have seen schools that have changed kata because they want theirs to be different from another school. Not a good reason.

The style listed on the door may not be what is realy being taught.

Question everything!

 

[Kyosanim]

The discussion was mostly on a philosophical basis. I know very well that pulling a knife is a bad idea, and for the record I do not own one or a gun for that matter though I used to be a pretty good shot.

The point I was trying to make was that we need to consider the moral implications of self defense.

Now as for TKD being to lethal. No its no different than any other martial art, however when You learn traditional TKD it is very focused on its how shall we say? Military history. The moves taught are more for a soldier in combat than a civilian defending their person. Striking the throat, eyes, ribs, knees, groin, back and sides of neck. This is fine when you have a psychopath out to take your life
, but not so good for drunks. Where does that leave you when thats what your taught? Now as for my account three men simply decided they wanted to fight me. They threatened me, and took aggressive postures while surrounding me, and continuing to threaten me.

Now they saw me come out of my apartment door so they knew where I lived.
What would running gain me? Being that I never trained to fight multiple enemies how do I make it out of this? I don't know if they know Jujitsu, or maybe did some boxing. I don't know if they have weapons, all I know is I have never met them before, and they are threatening me. Sometimes running will not save you as You can not out run a bullet, or a thrown knife for that matter.


" In any of the fights I have been in I knew one thing for certain. That I was going to get hurt". Bruce Lee

If one person can hurt you what can three do? Its not that hard to break floating ribs. How do you survive this encounter when forced to fight? I am simply looking for the input of those more experienced than I to create a method of minimized risk to your person, while not over doing it to someone else, and still surviving.


For quick reference (answers.com) has many definitions of the word fight here are a few.

To set (a boxer, for example) in combat with another.

A confrontation between opposing groups in which each attempts to harm or gain power over the other, as with bodily force or weapons.

Combat

To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.


Fighting, especially armed battle; strife. See synonyms at conflict.

This is obviously undesirable, but sometimes it happens.

So to get to my point I was looking for constructive input on the matter about how we should prepare for these situations as well as teach about them. Not telling me what I should and should not know from someone who did not fully understand the post. It is not up to you what I should and should not know it is up to my instructor, and the world mooye federation. If you have any constructive advice it is welcome such as techniques you believe that would be extra effective in this type of situation.

 

[Kyosanim]

Goju Ryu and training on and off for twenty years.

Much of what I have learned is directly related to self defense. What is illegal? Depends on what force is deemed needed to walk away alive.
Should I question my instructor? Yes I do. I can not just take any info as gospel just because my instructor is a 7th or 8th Dan. I even question what his instructor does. At a point in your training you can not remain being spoon fed by someone. You need to question things, you need to do your own research. You need to answer your own questions if an instructor can not

What do you do when you ask a question about something and the instructor says "because that's the way it was taught to me"

Not a good answer. What is there to say what he was taught is valid, is correct pertaining to the style/system he calaims to be teaching.

I've seen goju schools that have added 20 kata to the curriculum. Why? I have seen schools that have changed kata because they want theirs to be different from another school. Not a good reason.

The style listed on the door may not be what is realy being taught.

Question everything!

I would just like to thank you for this excellent reply, as well as all the others. I hope this thread is able to find a positive solution to questions here, but it is ultimately the journey that matters, or in this case the thought process.

 

[Sukerkin]

Kyosanim, would you like me to edit the thread title so as to prevent possible confusion? I think the word you wanted to use was "Poll" rather than "Pole".

 

[MJS]

The discussion was mostly on a philosophical basis. I know very well that pulling a knife is a bad idea, and for the record I do not own one or a gun for that matter though I used to be a pretty good shot.

The point I was trying to make was that we need to consider the moral implications of self defense.

Now as for TKD being to lethal. No its no different than any other martial art, however when You learn traditional TKD it is very focused on its how shall we say? Military history. The moves taught are more for a soldier in combat than a civilian defending their person. Striking the throat, eyes, ribs, knees, groin, back and sides of neck. This is fine when you have a psychopath out to take your life
, but not so good for drunks. Where does that leave you when thats what your taught? Now as for my account three men simply decided they wanted to fight me. They threatened me, and took aggressive postures while surrounding me, and continuing to threaten me.

If we look at any art, we'll see things that would/could be considered 'overkill', so its not limited to TKD. This is why I always say that we a) need to assess each situation accordingly and b) we should, as martial artists, be able to adjust what we do.

Now they saw me come out of my apartment door so they knew where I lived.
What would running gain me? Being that I never trained to fight multiple enemies how do I make it out of this? I don't know if they know Jujitsu, or maybe did some boxing. I don't know if they have weapons, all I know is I have never met them before, and they are threatening me. Sometimes running will not save you as You can not out run a bullet, or a thrown knife for that matter.

Are you just making a statement with this or are you looking for suggestions? I ask, because further down, it seemed to me that you were only interested in what your teacher was teaching you, not what anyone else thought that you should be doing. Either way, I'll offer my suggestion...IMO, if someone really wants to be prepared, you should make sure your training covers all areas. If something is lacking, do something to fix it.



If one person can hurt you what can three do? Its not that hard to break floating ribs. How do you survive this encounter when forced to fight? I am simply looking for the input of those more experienced than I to create a method of minimized risk to your person, while not over doing it to someone else, and still surviving.

So to get to my point I was looking for constructive input on the matter about how we should prepare for these situations as well as teach about them. Not telling me what I should and should not know from someone who did not fully understand the post. It is not up to you what I should and should not know it is up to my instructor, and the world mooye federation. If you have any constructive advice it is welcome such as techniques you believe that would be extra effective in this type of situation.

Hopefully you got what you were looking for in the replies that you received.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

1. Is it a good thing to question your teacher? This applies to more than technique.
As others have stated, voice concerns in private and outside of class.

2. Martial arts schools sell us on self defense. How much of what is taught is really useful in self defense situations?
Varies from school to school. It is important to understand the difference between specialized sport, cool arty stuff, stuff used to increase flexibility and strengthen the body, drills used for various training ends, and actual practical techniques.

3. How much of what is taught as self defense is legal?

You need to ask someone versed in self defense laws in your area about that, someone qualified to answer the question.


Yes, I can: L-a-w S-u-i-t, law suit. You spelled law suite, perhaps a term for the hotel suite rented by two lawyers?


I don't know. If changing their life means preserving my own, then so be it. Certainly, I don't want to, but I also don't want to die or have my life changed on their account. The main issue is making sure that you are in need of preserving your life and making sure that you cannot resolve the conflict without resorting to that level of force. Avoidance is far more effective than fighting, and I find that many victims in crime are victims of their own lack of exercising common sense.

4. When faced with multiple opponents just what are you supposed to do? You can't block eight punches at once!
Position yourself accordingly and retreat. You are outnumbered. Don't let them flank you. Use their numbers against them. All eight cannot punch you at once unless you are flanked and encircled. Taking on eight guys is the stuff of movies. Bruce Lee never did it in real life (students don't count). Oh, and it isn't punches you need to be worried about, but weapons, so yes, retreat and escape.


Well, you could have gone inside and called the police. Or, you could, again, retreat. If they were drunk, you could probably have outrun them fairly easily. Let me ask you: were these three drunk morons whom you had never seen before or people that you knew or had had an earlier encounter with? This next part of your narrative leads me to believe the latter:


Suppose they pull out a large pocket knife (ever see Crocodile Dundee)? What then? Or suppose you get that major artery shot by accident and the man bleeds out in front of your house? Or suppose you have no clue as to how to fight with a knife? You have just given legal justification to one of these morons to defend himself against an armed attacker. If you are lousy with the knife and he gets control of the weapon (not that difficult a concept to grasp), now you have an armed opponent and two unarmed opponents, all of whom will be more likely to want to attack you.

And do they know that you have a black belt? Just curious because of your last question. If not, then why is your black belt an issue?


Wow! Now this is a first! TKD being poor for self defense because it is too deadly. Usually TKD is criticized for being worthless on the street because all taekwondoists do is spar in hogu with their hands down and throw kicks. Or criticized for instructors saying that it's too deadly for the ring to explain why taekwondoists lose in MMA fights or something along those lines. I've heard of people saying 'too deadly for competition' but I've never heard too deadly for the deadly street.

I think that the whole 'blackbelt = armed and dangerous in court' is more urban legend than fact, though I'll leave that for someone with a legal background to tackle.

I must say that I find it odd to be answering these questions to a poster called kyosanim. That kind of implies that you're the one running the class, not just a black-belt student. At your level, you should not have to be asking what you can and cannot do to defend yourself without killing or permanently injuring an opponent. What's with the eye gouges and pocket knives??? Whatever happened to maneuvering and maintaining distance while opening up an escape? Or taking out the knee of one of them with a low kick and thus impairing his mobility, allowing you to concentrate on the other two as you retreat?

Or just accepting that you may have to actually hurt them in order to avoid permanent injury to yourself, or worse?

Daniel

I practice hapkido, kumdo, and taekwondo, and hold a black belt in each. In taekwondo, which is the subject of your OP, I am second dan. My Kumdo rank is higher, but non-applicable to this discussion, as it is a sword art.

whilst I do believe the "black belt = armed and dangerous in a court of law" theory is urban legend , I also wouldnt put it past a crafty lawyer to rub his hands together upon finding out his client was bashed by a black belt. People in general not only believe black belts have super powers but they also believe a black belt can put an end to a conflict causing as little damage as possibe. Therefore if you have poked someones eyes out , ruptured their testicles and smashed their wind pipe it may not look good in court particularly once the defence brings up the fact you are a practicing black belt. The defence can also put a good spin on weather or not you really had to defend yourself as the only people present at the time of the conflict were you and the person (or persons) you defended yourself against and their version of events may differ a little to yours once it gets to court and the lawyer their rich daddy got them has had time to play with the facts a little. Dont get me wrong , if my life is at risk I will do whatever is necessary to defend it but I do think in certain circumstances your black belt may get used against you.

 

[Kyosanim]

If we look at any art, we'll see things that would/could be considered 'overkill', so its not limited to TKD. This is why I always say that we a) need to assess each situation accordingly and b) we should, as martial artists, be able to adjust what we do.



Are you just making a statement with this or are you looking for suggestions? I ask, because further down, it seemed to me that you were only interested in what your teacher was teaching you, not what anyone else thought that you should be doing. Either way, I'll offer my suggestion...IMO, if someone really wants to be prepared, you should make sure your training covers all areas. If something is lacking, do something to fix it.



If one person can hurt you what can three do? Its not that hard to break floating ribs. How do you survive this encounter when forced to fight? I am simply looking for the input of those more experienced than I to create a method of minimized risk to your person, while not over doing it to someone else, and still surviving.





Hopefully you got what you were looking for in the replies that you received.

Yes I would very much like to hear anything that you think would be helpful as well as anything others think would be helpful. When training we program ourselves to do things. When I was punched in the face my first reaction was to strike the throat. I stopped myself, but the point is our first reaction is what we train ourselves to do. This was my first reaction. I don't really think that is a good thing, but it still leaves me wondering how to even the odds against multiple opponents.

The person who trained me did so in the same way they were taught. Which is if someone attacks you end it. I am not bragging but I only need about 3 or 4 inches to break a board with my hands. More than enough to crush a human throat which really any one can do either one of these easily as its really not hard.

So please contribute anything you think useful I am anything but closed minded, though I am a bit on the skeptical.

I'm sure you have much to contribute to the discussion, and I am sure you are a fine martial artist who likely knows much more than I do.

I also would like to apologize if anything is poorly worded or not clear sometimes I don't organize things the best because of a learning disability, so if anyone has trouble understanding anything please ask me to clarify and I will do so. I also want to apologize sometimes I get mad at people when they do not understand me as I forget my ability to convey information is sometimes poor at best, so if I said anything harsh I apologize.

 

[Kyosanim]

whilst I do believe the "black belt = armed and dangerous in a court of law" theory is urban legend , I also wouldnt put it past a crafty lawyer to rub his hands together upon finding out his client was bashed by a black belt. People in general not only believe black belts have super powers but they also believe a black belt can put an end to a conflict causing as little damage as possibe. Therefore if you have poked someones eyes out , ruptured their testicles and smashed their wind pipe it may not look good in court particularly once the defence brings up the fact you are a practicing black belt. The defence can also put a good spin on weather or not you really had to defend yourself as the only people present at the time of the conflict were you and the person (or persons) you defended yourself against and their version of events may differ a little to yours once it gets to court and the lawyer their rich daddy got them has had time to play with the facts a little. Dont get me wrong , if my life is at risk I will do whatever is necessary to defend it but I do think in certain circumstances your black belt may get used against you.

Thats what I thought. This is something we really need to address on a national level.

These urban legends really do us a disservice. I don't think it is fair that because of some preconceived notion of a black belt being super human.

I honestly regret testing in someways at this point.

I guess I would that someone else in my position would have the fact it was three on one weigh in their favor were it to go to court.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thats what I thought. This is something we really need to address on a national level.

These urban legends really do us a disservice. I don't think it is fair that because of some preconceived notion of a black belt being super human.

I honestly regret testing in someways at this point.

I guess I would that someone else in my position would have the fact it was three on one weigh in their favor were it to go to court.

I certainly wouldnt regret grading for black belt because of this. However , due to the world we live in if something goes to court people will dig up whatever info they can find so it is something we should be aware of.