A "lost" technique?

[Dudi Nisan]

Hi guys



Do you recognize the technique in the illustration?



Bruce Lee is using this technique in Way of the Dragon but I don’t know of gongfu styles which still use this technique.

The Chinese says:



(Right): stirring-water-looking-for-fish hand loses. 撥水求魚手敗



(Left): Falling to the ground, intersecting scissors, wins! 落地交剪勝





Happy New Year!

 

[Flying Crane]

Why do you think it is lost?

 

[Dudi Nisan]

Hi Flying Crane

As I said, Bruce Lee is using this technique in Way of the Dragon. But I never saw anyone still teaching/practicing it.

do you know of any style which officially teaches it?

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi Flying Crane

As I said, Bruce Lee is using this technique in Way of the Dragon. But I never saw anyone still teaching/practicing it.

do you know of any style which officially teaches it?

Depends on how it is applied. As a leg sissors it is pretty common, we did it in Tracy kenpo and in capoeira we did it a lot.

As a hook with one foot and kick the knee with the other variation, that too is pretty common as a useful tech if you have fallen and are fending off an attacker who is trying to get in on you. I would think that most systems that work on solutions to that kind of scenario would have some version of this.

I guess i can't name a specific system that I know has this formally, but it is familiar enough that I didn't blink twice over it.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

we did it in Tracy kenpo and in capoeira we did it a lot

It is interesting to know that in kenpo and capoeira this technique is still used.

But, I apologize, I should have been more specific.

This illustration is from a Chinese-Ryukyuan martial arts manual. Which mean that it was once taught in Chinese martial arts. But it seems that it is rarely taught today in Chinese martial arts(maybe it is taught in karate, I don't know).

So I'll rephrase my question: do you know of any Chinese styles which teach this technique?

 

[Flying Crane]

It is interesting to know that in kenpo and capoeira this technique is still used.

But, I apologize, I should have been more specific.

This illustration is from a Chinese-Ryukyuan martial arts manual. Which mean that it was once taught in Chinese martial arts. But it seems that it is rarely taught today in Chinese martial arts(maybe it is taught in karate, I don't know).

So I'll rephrase my question: do you know of any Chinese styles which teach this technique?

I've not specifically seen it in a formalized curriculum for a Chinese system, but there is a lot I've not seen. So, it's hard to say.

 

[KangTsai]

Nope. It's a prominent takedown technique from the 'open guard' position in whatever art. It's done by pushing the hip while hooking the knees or grabbing the ankle.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I had this technique in my "24 Chinese kicks" book since I was young. It will work better if you can hold on one of your opponent's arms to force him to lean forward and hard for him to escape. It's similar to BJJ jump guard or pull guard.

It's mainly trained in the Chinese 地躺 (Di Tang) style.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

We have this technique in our Gou Quan (dog style ground fighting) repertoire. Dog style is a bit weird in that it focuses more on leg and foot techniques to subdue an opponent rather than most other ground fighting disciplines that focus on the arms and body.

Gou Quan is the sister art of Fujian White Crane which we practice since White Crane lacks any form of ground fighting in its system.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

wow! amazing information.

It's good to know people still practice Dog Fist. It looks very, very interesting!

Thanks!

 

[Steve]

The lost de la riva guard technique.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've also seen the technique shown in Systema demos.

Grappling arts like BJJ and Sambo have techniques which work along similar concepts but are optimized to provide more leverage and control than the version depicted in the illustration.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

Grappling arts like BJJ and Sambo have techniques which work along similar concepts but are optimized to provide more leverage and control than the version depicted in the illustration

Is it functional? easy to use?


As for gongfu, are there any other styles (aside from Dog Fist) which use the scissors-legs?

 

[drop bear]

The lost de la riva guard technique.

I did ask once why we dont do the old self defence knee hook thingy. Because there is no rule saying we can't.

Something to do with the positioning bring able to be passed. And so you wind up just getting smashed.

 

[drop bear]

Is it functional? easy to use?


As for gongfu, are there any other styles (aside from Dog Fist) which use the scissors-legs?

more functional but it takes some training. It is not as intuitive.

There is a whole new fun set of mechanics when it comes to dealing with a striker from your back. Fun set of mechanics for the striker as well.

If you pay close attention. The guys without the gloves take better positions for striking when they are in the stand up position and the guys with the gloves are on their backs.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Is it functional? easy to use?

Do you mean the BJJ/Sambo/Judo versions or the version from the illustration you posted?

The versions from the grappling styles are very functional and not that hard to learn. The version from your picture is low-percentage against someone who knows what they are doing.

more functional but it takes some training. It is not as intuitive.

There is a whole new fun set of mechanics when it comes to dealing with a striker from your back. Fun set of mechanics for the striker as well.

If you pay close attention. The guys without the gloves take better positions for striking when they are in the stand up position and the guys with the gloves are on their backs.

The Jiu-jitsu practitioners demonstrating defense against standing opponents in that video are very high-level guys and were playing a pretty sophisticated game (although they slipped in the occasional basic move). I have beginners start out with a simpler approach.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

If you pay close attention. The guys without the gloves take better positions for striking when they are in the stand up position and the guys with the gloves are on their backs.

Thanks for this pointer! It's very important.

The version from your picture is low-percentage against someone who knows what they are doing.

Could you explain why it'd be a low-percentage tactic?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Could you explain why it'd be a low-percentage tactic?

1) For someone who knows what they are doing it's not too hard to stuff the sweep and then pass to a dominant position.
2) If you do succeed with the sweep, you end up in pretty much a neutral position and it's a scramble to see who can get to a dominant position first.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Could you explain why it'd be a low-percentage tactic?

Assuming we are still talking about the "scissor kick". This distance is important. If your opponent moves back just 3 inch, the technique will fail. This is why this technique will work better when a clinch is established. When a "hook" is established between your body and your opponent's body, when he moves back, he will pull your body with him.

 

[drop bear]

1) For someone who knows what they are doing it's not too hard to stuff the sweep and then pass to a dominant position.
2) If you do succeed with the sweep, you end up in pretty much a neutral position and it's a scramble to see who can get to a dominant position first.

And if OP. looks at my video anybody with half a brain enters into that position with their knees bent,hips forward and head up.

The other guy has to be doing a lot of stuff fundamentally wrong for that move to work.