A Local Reminder Of Why "REAL" Self-Defense Includes Preparedness Training

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Bill Mattocks, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    That. Is. Awful.
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Couple glasses of wine might be responsible.
     
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  3. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    I remember one sunday morning waking up to a fire alarm. I lived in a large building of condos and as it so happens, they were scheduled to run tests on the fire alarm system that day, so I didn't think much of it. 5 mins later there was a pounding on my door, to which I (somewhat annoyed) went outside to see what was the matter.

    I spent the rest of the day watching the building burn down, the top two floors obliterated. Luckilly for me I lived on the second, so not everything was destroyed. I didn't go back there for two weeks, at which point I recovered what I could (not much, but I did save my sword collection) under the supervision of the fire dept.

    I got out with just my wallet and my keys. That's it.

    The point? Well firstly, this had nothing to do with self defense, but if we were to use it as a metaphor, the lesson would be you don't always know what a situation even is until it's too late.
     
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  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think Jobo makes at least one (maybe two) valid points. Preparedness for disaster is worth considering, and we should all have these conversations to decide what level of preparedness is appropriate for us. But I don’t see it as linked to self-defense, except in mindset. The first aid training topic is a bit closer, and I know instructors who require first aid and CPR certification for their senior students.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Wow. That’sa situation I could get myself into, if I knew there were tests planned. I’m glad someone followed up with the banging on the door.
     
  6. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    when i was 11 i got 10 shilling( not an inconsiderable amount at the time) from my aunt, for my birthday

    , my father decieded that it was best to take it off me for safe keeping, which meant i would never see it again as he would spend it on beer( not the first time that had happened), i grabbed the money and legged it, and went shopping ,

    i returned with all sorts of stuff that an 11 year old wanted, knives catapult a magnifying glass, but i spent the bulk of it on a on a storm lantern for camping , i my dad went mad at me accusing me of woeful waste and being an idiot. Not the first or the last time we had that conversation

    6 months later the country had mass black outs doe to a power strike and you couldn't buy a torch or a battery or a candle for love nor money. We were the only people in the street,who had light, thanks tp my lantern, even my dad had to admit it was a good purchase. I still have it 47 years later just waiting for the next power cut. I think that was a good buy for 7 and 6
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
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  7. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    There several definitions for the term ‘self defense’ some define it as fighting in some manner. Some define it as a countermeasure that involves defending the health and well-being of oneself from harm. Therefore is more than being in a physical confrontation. Then there is the legal definitions which again vary depending on the situation, court, and law being applied. (Putting forth a defense of one’s self in court, for example, has nothing to do with punching or kicking.) I usually use the term personal protection along with self defense because I tend to take a broad view as to what is self defense.
     
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  8. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    if you take to broad a defintion of self defence it becomes meaningless, carrying an umbrella in case it rains is not really self defence, nor is having a torch in the car in case you break down or wet wipes or a spare shirt,

    I'm prepared to admit that preparing to deal with acute physical danger to yourself or a loved on MIGHT be an acceptable defintion, but that wouldnt really include booking into a hotel as there is a fire three miles away, that's just paranoid
     
  9. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    I don’t think he was in extreme fear. He was being deliberate in having a place to take his family ‘if’ his neighborhood were to be evacuated next (the one next to his had already been evacuated). Don’t know his situation as to accommodations or available, doesn’t matter. He felt it prudent to be ready. I’ll not fault him for that. Your opinion is different. That said preparedness alone I would not consider self defense just as I would not consider going to the shooting range as self defense. Would that be extremely fearful or paranoid (going out of ones way specifically to be prepared to use a firearm if need be)?
     
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  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'd say the most common definition (broader than my own) would center around avoiding being a victim of crime. I don't have an issue with folks being prepared and/or recommending preparedness to others. I just don't see it as a direct part of "self defense", and take issue with the strong language some use regarding that link. The mindset link is valid, and I accept that some folks are more conscientious about all of these matters. That's a personal decision, though, and I don't accept the premise that the two are on equal footing for all. I have very basic preparedness. We have a fire extinguisher and basic first aid/CPR training. We keep good first aid kits in key places (backpacking supplies, cars, house). We've discussed what a bug-out might look like, and have made very basic preparation for it (one container that we would need to grab, everything else depends upon how much time we have). Beyond that, I don't personally have a need. I see it as Jobo does - I can manage as long as my wife and I (and as many pets as we can manage) get out.
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Reasonable precautions are a good idea. I’m a little bothered frankly, by the attitude toward the neighbors. Too stupid to live is just no okay to say, IMO.

    Regarding the level of preparedness, this can easily be taken too far. One of my neighbors had a small shelter installed below his garage at great expense. Will he ever need it? Maybe, and boy won’t I regret not having one.

    I think reasonable preparations for things that have a reasonable chance of occurring is a good idea, but it can easily be taken too far. In Seattle, we haven’t had a sizable earthquake for many years (2001 or so). But we know it’s a matter of time. Fresh water. Durable food in the cupboard. Enough to get the family through 4 or 5 days if needed. A plan for the animals. Make sure everyone knows where to meet outside and who to call out of state in case we get split up. Documents in a safe place? Sure.

    It’s easy to focus on the wrong stuff.
     
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  12. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Exactly. We are the same. Are we too stupid to live? According to some, apparently. Is this self defense? Well, if we want to further muddy the waters.

    Regarding what is self defense, I have come to define self defense much as you do, and I’d add that the nature of the crimes is personal and intentional. So, for example, being a heroin addict causes a lot of harm, but that harm isn’t itself a nexus to self defense. The link between heroin addiction and self defense is the higher risk for assault, rape. Muggings or homocide.

    If you follow safety regulations at work, you are going to be less likely to be injured or killed on the job. That’s not self defense, IMO, even though the actions will make you safer. Now, if you have a plan for when the looters come after an earthquake.... or better yet, how to make the shop less of a target for looters. I think that’s closer to self defense.

    So, in this thread, I would say that the stuff covered in the OP isn’t self defense as it relates to bugging out and feeling superior to all one’s neighbors. How one could mitigate risk of being a victim of a crime... that to me is closer to self defense as it relates To people defending themselves and their property from other people who are acting unlawfully.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
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  13. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    he has made the mistake of telling you about his,shelter, if there is ever a SERIOUS need for a shelter insist on sharing or take it off him
     
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  14. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    How is it not self-defense? Also, I'm sorry that happened to you.
     
  15. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Anyone who has ever tried to find two panicked cats in a hurry knows you have to scoop them up before things start moving quickly.
     
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  16. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I read the news. People have died going back into burning buildings to save family members who were already out, but standing elsewhere. Sounds like more than a general discussion is in order, but that's me, I guess.
     
  17. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    why not fit them with a GPS tracker? that way you can located them when tshtf, now that's being prepared
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Lol. I saw him installing it. Hard to hide digging out your garage to install a prefab shelter. Major construction. I expect he’s pretty well armed, so I’ll have to consider carefully how I plan to invade his fortress in the event of a zombie apocalypse, ;)
     
  19. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I find it interesting how some quibble over the term 'self-defense' as if that changes the logic of being prepared for foreseeable threats to one's life or health. Call it a jelly donut, most of us are far more likely to face a kitchen grease fire than a mugging. That is simple threat analysis.

    I also like the reducto ad absurdum argument from the trolls. No, an umbrella against rain isn't self-defense, nor have I ever said that. Having a working fire extinguisher and knowing how to use it is no less self-defense than carrying a firearm and knowing how to use it. Both are intended to defend one's life in emergency. Both are examples of self-defense. One is far more likely than the other to be needed.
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    There are only two of us, so a general discussion tends to include things like that.
     
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