A Local Reminder Of Why "REAL" Self-Defense Includes Preparedness Training

Martial D

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This happened last night - about 3 miles from my house. We could hear explosion and then the roar of the fire, which resulted in evacuation orders for the neighborhood next to ours to the south. A gas main blew up, and it made a crater in the ground 18 feet deep, they say.

Surveillance video shows explosion, massive fire in Orion Twp.

I saw the fire column hundreds of feet in the air at the end of our cul-de-sac. Because the explosion also knocked out 911 and all the non-emergency numbers to the Oakland County Sheriff's Office, we could not reach out to them to find out status and if we should consider leaving.

So we went through our preparedness list. We got out the cat carriers and got the dog leashes and food and so on ready. We got dressed although it was 10:30 PM at night and we had been about to go to bed. We found lodging for the night a safe distance away if we had decided to leave. I sent my employer a quick email and packed up my work-related items. We grabbed the essential clothing and hygiene items.

We had the route planned the we would take north to escape the situation to the south.

As it turned out, the gas company was able to shut off the gas main and the fire went out almost immediately - but it took nearly two hours for that to happen.

What did we learn? Couple things.

First, my neighbors were paralyzed with indecision. They stood around and kept saying "What? what?" because they could not get their heads around the idea of what had happened. It was as if they could not believe the evidence of their own eyes and ears. They would have died, period. Too stupid to live. This is what happens when you do not prepare. Sorry, s'fact. I talked to them, tried to explain what was happening (once I knew myself what it was) and they simply could not comprehend it. The very idea of evacuation was something they simply were not capable of processing.

Second, we missed some items in our preparedness. Vital documents were not readily available and would have been abandoned. I'm talking about birth certificates, passports, work ID cards, military documents, power of attorney for my elderly mom, insurance papers, checkbooks, etc. We missed that. We will fix it.

Third, we had not established clear lines of authority. In these situations, one person is in charge; period. There is no discussion. If I am the person in charge, and I say we go, we go. No doddling, no fumfering around, no arguing. I say go, we go. If that person is not me, then I do what I am told, and with a quickness. That has also been fixed.

Finally, it all became less theoretical last night. I could hear and see death; we were lucky that it stayed where it was and didn't come for us. If it had, time would have been short. Not everyone gets that much time to deliberate. If you think it can't happen to you, think again. This sort of thing is rare; but it happens and people die. All the preparedness in the world may not save you; but then again, it might. And if you don't prepare, you get what you get.

As I've often mentioned on MT, in my opinion, self-defense includes preparedness. Like having an escape plan in case of fire, having fire extinguishers and knowing how to use them, simple stuff like that. It's great to be able to break a neck elventy-dozen ways with your hoo-hoo-fu style, but if you can't quickly bug out of your neighborhood when the gas main blows up and the houses start to burn, it's not much use to you, is it?

My 2 cents for today.

I remember one sunday morning waking up to a fire alarm. I lived in a large building of condos and as it so happens, they were scheduled to run tests on the fire alarm system that day, so I didn't think much of it. 5 mins later there was a pounding on my door, to which I (somewhat annoyed) went outside to see what was the matter.

I spent the rest of the day watching the building burn down, the top two floors obliterated. Luckilly for me I lived on the second, so not everything was destroyed. I didn't go back there for two weeks, at which point I recovered what I could (not much, but I did save my sword collection) under the supervision of the fire dept.

I got out with just my wallet and my keys. That's it.

The point? Well firstly, this had nothing to do with self defense, but if we were to use it as a metaphor, the lesson would be you don't always know what a situation even is until it's too late.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think Jobo makes at least one (maybe two) valid points. Preparedness for disaster is worth considering, and we should all have these conversations to decide what level of preparedness is appropriate for us. But I don’t see it as linked to self-defense, except in mindset. The first aid training topic is a bit closer, and I know instructors who require first aid and CPR certification for their senior students.
 

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I remember one sunday morning waking up to a fire alarm. I lived in a large building of condos and as it so happens, they were scheduled to run tests on the fire alarm system that day, so I didn't think much of it. 5 mins later there was a pounding on my door, to which I (somewhat annoyed) went outside to see what was the matter.

I spent the rest of the day watching the building burn down, the top two floors obliterated. Luckilly for me I lived on the second, so not everything was destroyed. I didn't go back there for two weeks, at which point I recovered what I could (not much, but I did save my sword collection) under the supervision of the fire dept.

I got out with just my wallet and my keys. That's it.

The point? Well firstly, this had nothing to do with self defense, but if we were to use it as a metaphor, the lesson would be you don't always know what a situation even is until it's too late.
Wow. That’sa situation I could get myself into, if I knew there were tests planned. I’m glad someone followed up with the banging on the door.
 

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I think Jobo makes at least one (maybe two) valid points. Preparedness for disaster is worth considering, and we should all have these conversations to decide what level of preparedness is appropriate for us. But I don’t see it as linked to self-defense, except in mindset. The first aid training topic is a bit closer, and I know instructors who require first aid and CPR certification for their senior students.
when i was 11 i got 10 shilling( not an inconsiderable amount at the time) from my aunt, for my birthday

, my father decieded that it was best to take it off me for safe keeping, which meant i would never see it again as he would spend it on beer( not the first time that had happened), i grabbed the money and legged it, and went shopping ,

i returned with all sorts of stuff that an 11 year old wanted, knives catapult a magnifying glass, but i spent the bulk of it on a on a storm lantern for camping , i my dad went mad at me accusing me of woeful waste and being an idiot. Not the first or the last time we had that conversation

6 months later the country had mass black outs doe to a power strike and you couldn't buy a torch or a battery or a candle for love nor money. We were the only people in the street,who had light, thanks tp my lantern, even my dad had to admit it was a good purchase. I still have it 47 years later just waiting for the next power cut. I think that was a good buy for 7 and 6
 
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Danny T

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I think Jobo makes at least one (maybe two) valid points. Preparedness for disaster is worth considering, and we should all have these conversations to decide what level of preparedness is appropriate for us. But I don’t see it as linked to self-defense, except in mindset. The first aid training topic is a bit closer, and I know instructors who require first aid and CPR certification for their senior students.
There several definitions for the term ‘self defense’ some define it as fighting in some manner. Some define it as a countermeasure that involves defending the health and well-being of oneself from harm. Therefore is more than being in a physical confrontation. Then there is the legal definitions which again vary depending on the situation, court, and law being applied. (Putting forth a defense of one’s self in court, for example, has nothing to do with punching or kicking.) I usually use the term personal protection along with self defense because I tend to take a broad view as to what is self defense.
 

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There several definitions for the term ‘self defense’ some define it as fighting in some manner. Some define it as a countermeasure that involves defending the health and well-being of oneself from harm. Therefore is more than being in a physical confrontation. Then there is the legal definitions which again vary depending on the situation, court, and law being applied. (Putting forth a defense of one’s self in court, for example, has nothing to do with punching or kicking.) I usually use the term personal protection along with self defense because I tend to take a broad view as to what is self defense.
if you take to broad a defintion of self defence it becomes meaningless, carrying an umbrella in case it rains is not really self defence, nor is having a torch in the car in case you break down or wet wipes or a spare shirt,

I'm prepared to admit that preparing to deal with acute physical danger to yourself or a loved on MIGHT be an acceptable defintion, but that wouldnt really include booking into a hotel as there is a fire three miles away, that's just paranoid
 

Danny T

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I don’t think he was in extreme fear. He was being deliberate in having a place to take his family ‘if’ his neighborhood were to be evacuated next (the one next to his had already been evacuated). Don’t know his situation as to accommodations or available, doesn’t matter. He felt it prudent to be ready. I’ll not fault him for that. Your opinion is different. That said preparedness alone I would not consider self defense just as I would not consider going to the shooting range as self defense. Would that be extremely fearful or paranoid (going out of ones way specifically to be prepared to use a firearm if need be)?
 

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There several definitions for the term ‘self defense’ some define it as fighting in some manner. Some define it as a countermeasure that involves defending the health and well-being of oneself from harm. Therefore is more than being in a physical confrontation. Then there is the legal definitions which again vary depending on the situation, court, and law being applied. (Putting forth a defense of one’s self in court, for example, has nothing to do with punching or kicking.) I usually use the term personal protection along with self defense because I tend to take a broad view as to what is self defense.
I'd say the most common definition (broader than my own) would center around avoiding being a victim of crime. I don't have an issue with folks being prepared and/or recommending preparedness to others. I just don't see it as a direct part of "self defense", and take issue with the strong language some use regarding that link. The mindset link is valid, and I accept that some folks are more conscientious about all of these matters. That's a personal decision, though, and I don't accept the premise that the two are on equal footing for all. I have very basic preparedness. We have a fire extinguisher and basic first aid/CPR training. We keep good first aid kits in key places (backpacking supplies, cars, house). We've discussed what a bug-out might look like, and have made very basic preparation for it (one container that we would need to grab, everything else depends upon how much time we have). Beyond that, I don't personally have a need. I see it as Jobo does - I can manage as long as my wife and I (and as many pets as we can manage) get out.
 

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Reasonable precautions are a good idea. I’m a little bothered frankly, by the attitude toward the neighbors. Too stupid to live is just no okay to say, IMO.

Regarding the level of preparedness, this can easily be taken too far. One of my neighbors had a small shelter installed below his garage at great expense. Will he ever need it? Maybe, and boy won’t I regret not having one.

I think reasonable preparations for things that have a reasonable chance of occurring is a good idea, but it can easily be taken too far. In Seattle, we haven’t had a sizable earthquake for many years (2001 or so). But we know it’s a matter of time. Fresh water. Durable food in the cupboard. Enough to get the family through 4 or 5 days if needed. A plan for the animals. Make sure everyone knows where to meet outside and who to call out of state in case we get split up. Documents in a safe place? Sure.

It’s easy to focus on the wrong stuff.
 

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I'd say the most common definition (broader than my own) would center around avoiding being a victim of crime. I don't have an issue with folks being prepared and/or recommending preparedness to others. I just don't see it as a direct part of "self defense", and take issue with the strong language some use regarding that link. The mindset link is valid, and I accept that some folks are more conscientious about all of these matters. That's a personal decision, though, and I don't accept the premise that the two are on equal footing for all. I have very basic preparedness. We have a fire extinguisher and basic first aid/CPR training. We keep good first aid kits in key places (backpacking supplies, cars, house). We've discussed what a bug-out might look like, and have made very basic preparation for it (one container that we would need to grab, everything else depends upon how much time we have). Beyond that, I don't personally have a need. I see it as Jobo does - I can manage as long as my wife and I (and as many pets as we can manage) get out.
Exactly. We are the same. Are we too stupid to live? According to some, apparently. Is this self defense? Well, if we want to further muddy the waters.

Regarding what is self defense, I have come to define self defense much as you do, and I’d add that the nature of the crimes is personal and intentional. So, for example, being a heroin addict causes a lot of harm, but that harm isn’t itself a nexus to self defense. The link between heroin addiction and self defense is the higher risk for assault, rape. Muggings or homocide.

If you follow safety regulations at work, you are going to be less likely to be injured or killed on the job. That’s not self defense, IMO, even though the actions will make you safer. Now, if you have a plan for when the looters come after an earthquake.... or better yet, how to make the shop less of a target for looters. I think that’s closer to self defense.

So, in this thread, I would say that the stuff covered in the OP isn’t self defense as it relates to bugging out and feeling superior to all one’s neighbors. How one could mitigate risk of being a victim of a crime... that to me is closer to self defense as it relates To people defending themselves and their property from other people who are acting unlawfully.
 
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jobo

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Reasonable precautions are a good idea. I’m a little bothered frankly, by the attitude toward the neighbors. Too stupid to live is just no okay to say, IMO.

Regarding the level of preparedness, this can easily be taken too far. One of my neighbors had a small shelter installed below his garage at great expense. Will he ever need it? Maybe, and boy won’t I regret not having one.

I think reasonable preparations for things that have a reasonable chance of occurring is a good idea, but it can easily be taken too far. In Seattle, we haven’t had a sizable earthquake for many years (2001 or so). But we know it’s a matter of time. Fresh water. Durable food in the cupboard. Enough to get the family through 4 or 5 days if needed. A plan for the animals. Make sure everyone knows where to meet outside and who to call out of state in case we get split up. Documents in a safe place? Sure.

It’s easy to focus on the wrong stuff.
he has made the mistake of telling you about his,shelter, if there is ever a SERIOUS need for a shelter insist on sharing or take it off him
 
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Bill Mattocks

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I remember one sunday morning waking up to a fire alarm. I lived in a large building of condos and as it so happens, they were scheduled to run tests on the fire alarm system that day, so I didn't think much of it. 5 mins later there was a pounding on my door, to which I (somewhat annoyed) went outside to see what was the matter.

I spent the rest of the day watching the building burn down, the top two floors obliterated. Luckilly for me I lived on the second, so not everything was destroyed. I didn't go back there for two weeks, at which point I recovered what I could (not much, but I did save my sword collection) under the supervision of the fire dept.

I got out with just my wallet and my keys. That's it.

The point? Well firstly, this had nothing to do with self defense, but if we were to use it as a metaphor, the lesson would be you don't always know what a situation even is until it's too late.

How is it not self-defense? Also, I'm sorry that happened to you.
 
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Bill Mattocks

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I don’t think he was in extreme fear. He was being deliberate in having a place to take his family ‘if’ his neighborhood were to be evacuated next (the one next to his had already been evacuated). Don’t know his situation as to accommodations or available, doesn’t matter. He felt it prudent to be ready. I’ll not fault him for that. Your opinion is different. That said preparedness alone I would not consider self defense just as I would not consider going to the shooting range as self defense. Would that be extremely fearful or paranoid (going out of ones way specifically to be prepared to use a firearm if need be)?
Anyone who has ever tried to find two panicked cats in a hurry knows you have to scoop them up before things start moving quickly.
 
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I'd say the most common definition (broader than my own) would center around avoiding being a victim of crime. I don't have an issue with folks being prepared and/or recommending preparedness to others. I just don't see it as a direct part of "self defense", and take issue with the strong language some use regarding that link. The mindset link is valid, and I accept that some folks are more conscientious about all of these matters. That's a personal decision, though, and I don't accept the premise that the two are on equal footing for all. I have very basic preparedness. We have a fire extinguisher and basic first aid/CPR training. We keep good first aid kits in key places (backpacking supplies, cars, house). We've discussed what a bug-out might look like, and have made very basic preparation for it (one container that we would need to grab, everything else depends upon how much time we have). Beyond that, I don't personally have a need. I see it as Jobo does - I can manage as long as my wife and I (and as many pets as we can manage) get out.

I read the news. People have died going back into burning buildings to save family members who were already out, but standing elsewhere. Sounds like more than a general discussion is in order, but that's me, I guess.
 

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Anyone who has ever tried to find two panicked cats in a hurry knows you have to scoop them up before things start moving quickly.
why not fit them with a GPS tracker? that way you can located them when tshtf, now that's being prepared
 

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he has made the mistake of telling you about his,shelter, if there is ever a SERIOUS need for a shelter insist on sharing or take it off him
Lol. I saw him installing it. Hard to hide digging out your garage to install a prefab shelter. Major construction. I expect he’s pretty well armed, so I’ll have to consider carefully how I plan to invade his fortress in the event of a zombie apocalypse, ;)
 
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I find it interesting how some quibble over the term 'self-defense' as if that changes the logic of being prepared for foreseeable threats to one's life or health. Call it a jelly donut, most of us are far more likely to face a kitchen grease fire than a mugging. That is simple threat analysis.

I also like the reducto ad absurdum argument from the trolls. No, an umbrella against rain isn't self-defense, nor have I ever said that. Having a working fire extinguisher and knowing how to use it is no less self-defense than carrying a firearm and knowing how to use it. Both are intended to defend one's life in emergency. Both are examples of self-defense. One is far more likely than the other to be needed.
 

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I read the news. People have died going back into burning buildings to save family members who were already out, but standing elsewhere. Sounds like more than a general discussion is in order, but that's me, I guess.
There are only two of us, so a general discussion tends to include things like that.
 

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