A "Gun Martial Art"?

[sgtmac_46]

i don't know, it's cool i guess. but i think i'd rather be an IDPA champion or something than a black belt in hojutsu. i'm always glad to see traditional arts preserved, though.

jf

I'm pretty certain that learning traditional hojutsu would involve drilling in muzzle loading a large and bulky black powder firearm, as that is what was used in battle at the time of the introduction of hojutsu.

At this point it's just a name for a formalized version of modern martial arts training.....a gimmick.

 

[tellner]

Second what KenpoTex said. There are plenty of good firearms teachers out there. Start with Massad Ayoob and go from there.

What you don't need is a bunch of pseudo-Asian crap tacked onto perfectly good material to make it feel "traditional". The first point of the exercise is to turn you into a good shooter who can make little holes in whatever is required under stress conditions. Wearing Japanese gym clothes and a brightly colored belt will not help you do that. Wearing your regular clothes while you shoot will help you. Exaggerated out-of-context Oriental manners will not make you a better shootist. Knowledge of the ethics and legal aspects of the use of deadly force will.

Firearms use is part of several traditional Japanese martial arts. It's of very limited interest to me. Matchlocks are in short supply these days. If I'm going to the time and expense of getting a gun and learning to fire it I'd prefer one that doesn't require several minutes and a cigarette lighter to operate.

 

[jarrod]

I'm pretty certain that learning traditional hojutsu would involve drilling in muzzle loading a large and bulky black powder firearm, as that is what was used in battle at the time of the introduction of hojutsu.

At this point it's just a name for a formalized version of modern martial arts training.....a gimmick.

like i said, not my thing. but some folks like cowboy action shooting, some folks like muzzleloading...whatever trips thier trigger.

hey i made a pun!

jf

 

[sgtmac_46]

like i said, not my thing. but some folks like cowboy action shooting, some folks like muzzleloading...whatever trips thier trigger.

hey i made a pun!

jf

hehe....

 

[arnisandyz]

Oy vey

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Karate means Empty Hand. But with in Karate you have weapons like Nunchuks or Swords.

Also I study Wing Chun. But you also utilize The The Staff (Gun) Also known as Luk Dim Boon Gwun
And the Butterfly Swords (Hudie Shuang Dao) Also known as Yee Jee Seung Do

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts_weapons


Its ironic the word Gun also means staff in Chinese...Has anyone else notice that? It could be that the early Guns were staff weapons like the bayonet. An we just kept the word Gun. There was formal training back then for the use of Guns. Martial Means War and Art means form. So I can see why we would have Gun Art since it is apart of war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_(staff)




I see some possible Gun Martial Arts depiction in the movies

Here is a Movie scene of a Gun Kata or Form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqoEAc9xmak&feature=related


Using the Gun Kata in combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbP2djP0h5g&feature=related



Here is a scene of Guns being used in actual combat

Go on youtube and type in Gun Kata very interesting stuff.

So I suppose in my humble opion that a Gun is a weapon just like a knife, sword, staff, spear, daggers, Club, Darts, Throwing stars, Bow and Arrows. Didn't the Samurai used Swords, Spears and Shoot Arrows? Didn't the Ninja use throwing Stars and Shoot Arrows? So I guess shooting is apart of Martial Arts after all. Just depends on if your ready to include it in your Martial Arts?

Does anyone's schools Advocate gun use?

 

[Blindside]

Karate means Empty Hand. But with in Karate you have weapons like Nunchuks or Swords.

Karate also can mean Chinese Hand or Tang Hand depending on the kanji used, and in most traditional styles, the use of nunchaku or staff or oar is taught seperately as kobodu, the sword is also taught as a seperate style such as kenjutsu, iaido, battojutsu.

Its ironic the word Gun also means staff in Chinese...Has anyone else notice that? It could be that the early Guns were staff weapons like the bayonet. An we just kept the word Gun.

The term is of western origin, possibly Scandanavian, from the base word of gunn, meaning war.

Go on youtube and type in Gun Kata very interesting stuff.

I like Christian Bale, but that is just a movie, and more correctly a fantasy, about as likely as Batman.

Does anyone schools Advocate gun use?

If a school is serious about self-protection, it would be foolish not to instruct on a legitimate and serious self-defense option. Or at the very least, have good recommendations of instructors to students who are interested. I have taught family and friends to shoot, but I don't have the quals to teach professionally, so I just refer interested students to those that do.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Actually making it a martial art can be done. Even a Dojo.

Consider this:

Using 'Red' ASP guns one in Dojo can practice all kinds of draws, pivots, shooting stances, barricade postions, and the like. You can also use those Red guns for disarming and retention practice. Yea, might even have some 'one step sparring' and 'self-defense' just like a Hapkido/TKD dojo.

Using Airsoft in the Dojo, with a 'range' one can then actually do some close range combat shooting practice. And one can use those same Airsofts for Force-on-Force training.

The ONLY thing not allowed in the dojo would be real guns with real ammo! Those would only be in the outdoor class at a gun range!

Now you practice this stuff twice a week for many months and I assure you, you will be GOOD. Much better than any three day class could possibly make you.

Deaf

 

[LawDog]

Martial Arts - Military way to perfection.
Firearms training, to a perfection in all areas, is not easy. I have been shooting for over 50 years, I am an upper end shooter but I still don't have all areas of shooting down to the perfection level.
Martial Art it can be.
:biggun:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I see firearms as an integral part of the martial practices. No different than knife or impact tool training. Just one more tool system to be in a practitioners tool box if needed.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I can see the idea of a 'Gun Martial Art' existing. Lets take firing a rifle from a military point of view. In the Marines we fired from the standing, kneeling (which has three versions), sitting, and prone. At close range there's a differnit standing, and two more versions of the kneeling. I geuss you could call those stances.
At long range, we fire Tri-Fires, Slow-Fire, and Rapid-Fire. Close range there's Control Pairs, Hammer Pairs, Presentation Drills, Failure Drills, Box Drills, Rapid Re-Loads, and so on. I geuss those would be the techniques and drills. When you get to MCT you start to do more close range fire, and unknown distance, and firing on the move. Those would more advanced techniques I geuss.
When you do the qual for each table (which is a set combination of positions, ranges, and drills) that could be called a kata. Weapons maintaince could be looked as warm up/stretching/cool down. Then you could go into other weapons (the SAW, M240 Bravo, AT4, M203, M67, various other machine guns, rocket launchers, handguns, rifles, and shotguns) those would be like dan-level material.

So, a "Gun Martial Art" is possible, but doesn't really have much use outside of the military. Oh, and grappling is a bayonet (you either swear by it, or think it's freakin useless)

 

[tellner]

The Ancient Masters would have taken one look at modern repeating firearms and ditched all the funny looking man-powered weapons in a heartbeat. And they'd have sold their kids for a few cases of ammunition.

 

[Deaf Smith]

The Ancient Masters would have taken one look at modern repeating firearms and ditched all the funny looking man-powered weapons in a heartbeat. And they'd have sold their kids for a few cases of ammunition.

That's very true tellner! They were not stupid and wished to survive. Notice once the first serious, reliable, repeating handgun came along, swords were dropped from use among the calvary (but they kept the left handed holster worn on the right!)

Deaf

 

[CuongNhuka]

Notice once the first serious, reliable, repeating handgun came along, swords were dropped from use among the calvary

There were calvary charges with lances in World War I. There was no horse calvary in World War II.

 

[Archangel M]

There were calvary charges with lances in World War I. There was no horse calvary in World War II.

Very few..and for good reason.

 

[LawDog]

Tellner,
so true.

 

[Deaf Smith]

There were calvary charges with lances in World War I. There was no horse calvary in World War II.

Actually we did. In the Philippines. U.S. 2nd Cavalry. WW2.

Polish even charged German tanks with Cavalry in '38.

http://boards.history.com/thread.jspa?threadID=520001912

Deaf

 

[tellner]

And cavalry charges against tanks worked exactly as well as you'd expect. Hell, the invention of reliable repeating firearms pretty much put the kibosh to cavalry.

 

[Deaf Smith]

And you know, what is amazing is after WW1, when the machinegun showed massed assaults against them were suicide, you would think that would be the end of cavalry.

I cannot fathom how the Polish thought that would work.

I remember seeing films of our U.S. Cavalry in the Philippines practicing charges with .45 automatics back in the '30s. I mean right out of 'They came from Cordura' and Gary Cooper.

But then, even after the Mini-ball was developed, making a musket effective to 200 yards, the generals still had their troops stand, without cover, 40 yards from each other and blaze away.

Tactics are usually are slower to develop than technology. You can see that in Iraq where the terrorist still use AK-47s and 'spray-n-pray' while we use body armor, EOT/ACOG/Aimpoints, and simi-auto fire (not to mention wide use of NVD, GPS guided munitions, head set communications down to privates, and other nice goodies.)

Deaf

 

[CuongNhuka]

Hell, the invention of reliable repeating firearms pretty much put the kibosh to cavalry.

Trenches had these things called 'machine guns' in them. They are a reliable weapon which fires many rounds in one burst. And yet, there were still charges of horse calvary armed with swords and lances. It's amazing how the advent of better weapons will remove outdated methodologies. If the old masters were around today to see our modern firearms, they would probably still use there old style. They would just add firearms at some point. People are smart, but they are also stubborn.

Side comments:
- Tellner, if you were desperate to win a battle, you'd throw your mothers wedding ring at the enemy if you thought it might do something.

- Deaf, Horse calvary in an area of heavy jungles makes perfect sense. It's still pretty much impossible to get an armored vechicle into some areas. There usage is an exception. I'm also pretty sure you know what I meant in my statement.

- Deaf, those things make it so we can kill the enemy better, not that there tactics aren't working. Spray and pray is used because you cann't really zero an AK47, and even if you could, the insurgents dont get the marksmanship training to make it matter. The major reason troops aren't dieing as quickly in Iraq and Afghanistan is because there aren't as many attacks. And the enemy has actually been learning from there mistakes, and from us. The started using snipers alot more after we sniped the crap out of them in Falujah. They've been hideing IEDs in differnit and more clever spots over the years. Suicide bombers no longer get all decked up before blowing us up. The enemy has also learned how to probe us. The enemy we are fighting is very good at what they do, don't under estiamte them just because the weapons they use are junk compared to ours.