A curious outlook on self-defense learning

[Gerry Seymour]

I actively go from prey to duel though. Just because it starts to create advantages that being prey doesn't.

So if i am confronted i would rather instigate and remain at a tactical advantage. I may not go after a guy. But i am ready to go if he comes after me.

I have been sucker punched to many times to put up with that nonsense

Agreed. That's the basic stance of any realistic self-defense, if avoidance/de-escalation doesn't work. You turn into the monster they wish they hadn't grabbed hold of.

 

[Juany118]

Those are ends of the spectrum. There are also attacks with plenty of cues, where there are opportunities to de-escalate, avoid, or at least know it's coming.

Exactly. As an example the "typical" half drunk bar fight often starts with the guy coming up to you, probably over an imagined slight, chest puffed up, he may chest bump ya, he is definitely going to be having words with ya.

If he accuses you of knocking over his drink when really he is just looking for someone to blame for his own sloppy drunk *** knocking it over, say "sorry I didn't know." 99% of the time time they think they won and walked away. "What were you doing eyeing up my girl?" "Sorry, she is attractive and you sir are a luckily man." You just puffed up his ego, probably again not a fight.

Now if he moves to a shove, or balls those fists and lowers his chin, offense is now the best defense, but verbal judo usually works better. The problem is verbal judo requires swallowing your pride.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exactly. As an example the "typical" half drunk bar fight often starts with the guy coming up to you, probably over an imagined slight, chest puffed up, he may chest bump ya, he is definitely going to be having words with ya.

If he accuses you of knocking over his drink when really he is just looking for someone to blame for his own sloppy drunk *** knocking it over, say "sorry I didn't know." 99% of the time time they think they won and walked away. "What were you doing eyeing up my girl?" "Sorry, she is attractive and you sir are a luckily man." You just puffed up his ego, probably again not a fight.

Now if he moves to a shove, or balls those fists and lowers his chin, offense is now the best defense, but verbal judo usually works better. The problem is verbal judo requires swallowing your pride.

That last part is the hardest for many of us. I'm my father's son in this - I have a hard time just ignoring an idiot. I've learned to suppress the urge to taunt them into showing their idiocy (which invariably leads to them wanting a fight) and let them have an empty "win", but the urge is still there.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

IMO a self-defense situation arises when a Predator-Prey relationship takes place, even when the "predator" person is misled as to the prey mentality, awareness, and/or physical skill/power of the supposed "prey," the end result is the same, i.e. an attack comes with little or no warning and/or chance to avoid the confrontation and the defender is put in a position where the defensive position is mandated by the attack.

I would disagree on this, as there are nearly always signs you can look for in terms of people's body language and circumstances that can tip you off, you just have to know what to look for. It's not like a person is standing completely motionless and expressionless and then suddenly attacks you. The signs are there if you know what to look for, but the problem is that most people don't know what to look for and are rubbish at reading body language. You get the same thing when dealing with animals. A lot of uninformed people think that animals attack without warning, when this simply isn't true. All predators displays signs of intent before they attack, you just have to know what to look for. In all of this I am reminded of a recent situation at the pool I work at. There were this group of youths in the pool causing trouble for most of the day so we (the lifeguards) told them to leave. They got angry and started shouting insults, cussing and telling us to fight them. I watched the exchange between one of the youths and one of our lifeguards who was really going at it, and could see that no matter what they said they would never have started a fight, purely from looking at his body language. If he had changed his body language and gone into a more predatory mode, I would have seen it and stepped in, but he didn't and soon after he and his friends left.

Learning to read body language is a very important skill that is sadly overlooked by most people, who rely on their ears rather than their eyes to give them the information.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I have been digging actually and have been finding nothing. I had already assumed that if what you are saying here was accurate that a reporter, hell a bunch of em, would have been running with this story pretty hard.

Adam Basford is his name. Its funny you couldnt find anything...I just googled "cops cry for help ignored by fellow police" and the story came up. You wont find the original story though, I tried that and its been deleted and changed. But thats to be expected.

Apparently he was charged with filing a false police report against another officer and they settled with back pay and he has left yakima since.

There is a piece on pro literate about it but, those sites are questionable.

But I am surprised that you think it would be reported nationally. Things like this, do not get the response you think it does, on the national level.

 

[Juany118]

The last part always strikes me as odd. Look at a deer (prey) and their eyes are on the sides of the head. Look at a wolf (predator

Adam Basford is his name. Its funny you couldnt find anything...I just googled "cops cry for help ignored by fellow police" and the story came up. You wont find the original story though, I tried that and its been deleted and changed. But thats to be expected.

Apparently he was charged with filing a false police report against another officer and they settled with back pay and he has left yakima since.

There is a piece on pro literate about it but, those sites are questionable.

But I am surprised that you think it would be reported nationally. Things like this, do not get the response you think it does, on the national level.

Well I was doing a search based on the County name with search terms like "police scandal", police not responding to 911 calls etc. Plus Chrome's phone browser, I have found, doesn't give the same results all the time. I will be checking it out (with your info thank you) as soon as my duty shift allows (am at work atm lol)

 

[drop bear]

I would disagree on this, as there are nearly always signs you can look for in terms of people's body language and circumstances that can tip you off, you just have to know what to look for. It's not like a person is standing completely motionless and expressionless and then suddenly attacks you. The signs are there if you know what to look for, but the problem is that most people don't know what to look for and are rubbish at reading body language. You get the same thing when dealing with animals. A lot of uninformed people think that animals attack without warning, when this simply isn't true. All predators displays signs of intent before they attack, you just have to know what to look for. In all of this I am reminded of a recent situation at the pool I work at. There were this group of youths in the pool causing trouble for most of the day so we (the lifeguards) told them to leave. They got angry and started shouting insults, cussing and telling us to fight them. I watched the exchange between one of the youths and one of our lifeguards who was really going at it, and could see that no matter what they said they would never have started a fight, purely from looking at his body language. If he had changed his body language and gone into a more predatory mode, I would have seen it and stepped in, but he didn't and soon after he and his friends left.

Learning to read body language is a very important skill that is sadly overlooked by most people, who rely on their ears rather than their eyes to give them the information.

Let me guess you dont have crocodiles where you live.

No warning is kind of their trade mark.

 

[Juany118]

.

But I am surprised that you think it would be reported nationally. Things like this, do not get the response you think it does, on the national level.

Okay found it and yeah, so far the only articles I am finding giving positive light to his account are ones that have a clearly ideological bent. Since there are dispatch records though (according to the local CBS affiliate), his account should be easily verifiable (time of radio call, time of officer response etc).

As for National a few reasons. First there are a number of "National" LE specific news web sites, such as Police one, that over stuff like this that happen in even the smallest towns, especially if (again as the CBS affiliate said) the news goes viral on social media. Also, due to my "groups" and other settings FB's algorithms usually point stories like this on the top of my feed. I consider viral stuff via social media as "National" distribution.

All in all though it looks like a mess. On the one hand there does appear to be at least one prior questionable incident regarding the Yakima police covering up a use of force incident. On the other hand it appears the Basford has some issues in that he provided 3 different statements. One article I found quoted the author of the Pro Liberate article (which actually supports Basford's account) as saying... "Basford described to me a difficult upbringing in a troubled home with a father who was intractably mired in a criminal subculture. Earlier this year his father committed suicide in suspicious circumstances. There may be a connection between Cardenas’s associates and the death of Basford’s father.."

Yeah, gotta love incidents where there is some evidence that all sides have agendas.

 

[drop bear]

That last part is the hardest for many of us. I'm my father's son in this - I have a hard time just ignoring an idiot. I've learned to suppress the urge to taunt them into showing their idiocy (which invariably leads to them wanting a fight) and let them have an empty "win", but the urge is still there.

Man. walking away is such a luxury for me i love when i can do it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Let me guess you dont have crocodiles where you live.

No warning is kind of their trade mark.

Alligators are more common out my way, and they usually do the same. It's not unheard of for them to warn someone off, but that's not their predator mode.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Man. walking away is such a luxury for me i love when i can do it.

Is that a job thing? It's something LEO's, security guards, bouncers don't have the luxury of, and part of what makes their "self-defense" different from my "self-defense".

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Let me guess you dont have crocodiles where you live.

No warning is kind of their trade mark.

The closest crocs to me are safely housed at London Zoo, and while I agree that some animals don't give any warning of their intent to attack, most animals (especially mammals) do, and particularly dogs and cats if you know what to look for.

 

[drop bear]

Is that a job thing? It's something LEO's, security guards, bouncers don't have the luxury of, and part of what makes their "self-defense" different from my "self-defense".

Yeah. if i was working and someone chest bumped me I would probably have to kick them out. As a bouncer I am targeting exactly the guys I should be avoiding.

I would love to be able to just not care and walk away. If i am not being paid. That is exactly what i do.

 

[Juany118]

Alligators are more common out my way, and they usually do the same. It's not unheard of for them to warn someone off, but that's not their predator mode.

They have cues though, if you know what to look for, most all creatures (outside of the insect world) do we are just better at reading the cues of mammals, especially humans, dogs and cats (because of the pet relationship.). As an example the cat has the "butt wiggle" lol. Humans, even if they purposefully avoid lowering the chin or balling the fists (virtually subconscious changes) at a minimum they will do a targeting glance towards the areas of the body they see as an immediate threat. If unarmed they will quickly glance at your hands, if armed openly a quick glance at the hands and the weapons to see how readily they can be obtained etc. In a situation like my job they may be also looking for escape routes. More than once I have said "oh damnit, this is going to be a..." foot pursuit, fight, whatever a second or two just before it happened just by making sure my scanning wasn't just looking at the suspect's body but also their eyes.

 

[drop bear]

They have cues though, if you know what to look for, most all creatures (outside of the insect world) do we are just better at reading the cues of mammals, especially humans, dogs and cats (because of the pet relationship.). As an example the cat has the "butt wiggle" lol. Humans, even if they purposefully avoid lowering the chin or balling the fists (virtually subconscious changes) at a minimum they will do a targeting glance towards the areas of the body they see as an immediate threat. I unarmed they will quickly glance at your hands, if armed openly a quick glance at the hands and the weapons to see how readily they can be obtained etc.

I reckon the chin would go up more often than down. Instinctively.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I reckon the chin would go up more often than down. Instinctively.

It depends on the attitude of the person. Tilting the chin upwards is a more aggressive and dominant position, whereas the chin down is more defensive as it better protects your neck.

 

[drop bear]

It depends on the attitude of the person. Tilting the chin upwards is a more aggressive and dominant position, whereas the chin down is more defensive as it better protects your neck.

The determining idea here was instinctive. A trained fighter would tuck his chin.

I don't think that is an instinctive trait.

 

[Juany118]

It depends on the attitude of the person. Tilting the chin upwards is a more aggressive and dominant position, whereas the chin down is more defensive as it better protects your neck.

I have seen the chin go up BUT that is typically in the posturing phase. In my experience when they go to "pull the trigger" so to speak the chin instinctively comes down to protect the neck. They don't even think about it, it just happens.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Okay found it and yeah, so far the only articles I am finding giving positive light to his account are ones that have a clearly ideological bent. Since there are dispatch records though (according to the local CBS affiliate), his account should be easily verifiable (time of radio call, time of officer response etc).

As for National a few reasons. First there are a number of "National" LE specific news web sites, such as Police one, that over stuff like this that happen in even the smallest towns, especially if (again as the CBS affiliate said) the news goes viral on social media. Also, due to my "groups" and other settings FB's algorithms usually point stories like this on the top of my feed. I consider viral stuff via social media as "National" distribution.

All in all though it looks like a mess. On the one hand there does appear to be at least one prior questionable incident regarding the Yakima police covering up a use of force incident. On the other hand it appears the Basford has some issues in that he provided 3 different statements. One article I found quoted the author of the Pro Liberate article (which actually supports Basford's account) as saying... "Basford described to me a difficult upbringing in a troubled home with a father who was intractably mired in a criminal subculture. Earlier this year his father committed suicide in suspicious circumstances. There may be a connection between Cardenas’s associates and the death of Basford’s father.."

Yeah, gotta love incidents where there is some evidence that all sides have agendas.

I think one of the problems with any info these days, every news outlet has become questionable, especially social medie. Social media as a reliable source, is like wikipedia, a whole lot of, insert whatever you like.

But news wise, alot of things are missed on the national level.

Take the small town I live in. Just a few years back we had officers doing warrantless searches and harassing
people however they seen fit. A bunch of us got together and put a stop to it. We found that our town did not have a charter and that the police force was operating under the guise of LE...when in reality, they were no more than security guards. The police chief resigned, one officer was incarcerated for sexual harassment( he now mows lawns, if he can get the work) and the city joined there forces with a another town adjacent to us and now piggy back on their charter.

It wasn't even in the local paper.
Not all government corruption is reported.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. if i was working and someone chest bumped me I would probably have to kick them out. As a bouncer I am targeting exactly the guys I should be avoiding.

I would love to be able to just not care and walk away. If i am not being paid. That is exactly what i do.

Agreed. I've trained with folks who worked that sort of job. They don't need as much of some of the skills I do, and more of other skills. The physical framework is very similar, but the choices are more narrow when you're on the job.