A Brief History of Taekwon-Do by General Choi

[KarateMomUSA]

People People People, come on everyone knows that puunui is always right about the history and was told just about everything from somebody. I find some of these thread just plain funny since the actual people that supposely said this or that are not here to say whether they did or did not say it.

I have no doubt that Puunui adds very important insight to the discussion of the history of TKD & how it developed. I also feel that he is truthful with what he posts. However what we must understand is that for many reasons people did not like Gen Choi. We also must understand the nasty Korean politics & the context of the times that this development took place in. There is great motivation by many to discredit Gen Choi & smear his name & great accomplishments. What is required to know is that Gen Choi did do things that maybe no other martial artist may have ever done, but his accomplishments simply do not have anything at all to do with Kukki TKD. In fact, he fought them along the way, which of course is another reason why he was hated so much. None of this can ever take away or diminish what he has done for so many outside of Kukki TKD around the world.

History was fabricated by all sides to give TKD some credibility out in the world, the only problem is later certain people started to say so and so is not telling the truth but my potion is the truth now. I own a pretty good library of TKD books with there own version of what they believe to bethe truth we all must decide which version we will believe in since we all must take one side or another.

The biggest problem is with the confusion that while all TKD had the same roots, karate, they developed differently along 2 major routes, simply stated as Chang Hon or Original TKD & Kukki or Olympic TKD or even simpler, but maybe less accurate ITF & WTF. This is the root cause of much of the confusion & various historical accounts. Then add in the very bad & needless fighting between the groups or styles of TKD.

You know the old story put seven people in seven different rooms and ask the same question and get seven defferent answers to your question. Keep the thread going because I do find it very informative and entertaining.:asian:

That is probably because they have been told 7 or more versions of the history of TKD.
The history is rather simple:
There were 7 Koreans that we know of that studied martial arts abroad. They returned to Korea & eventually opened or played significant parts in the 1st 5 original kwans or the 6 early kwans. There were movements on the civilian & military side in creating a Korean martial art free from the hated Japanese connection. At 1st these efforts centered around names, then techniques & sports rules. The term or label TKD was 1st used in the military by soldiers. The term eventually agreed upon by the others was Tae Soo Do. Later they all used the same name of TKD, but it was now being applied to different physical systems with different emphasis. It is at this point that the history should now break into 2 or more recordings, to more accurately reflect what came next. The history that is important to you, is not what you think is correct, but rather what best describes the people who made what you do today possible, along with when & where did they do it.

No need to battle, quibble, fight or attack one another. It is simply beyond silly! It is also unbecoming of the spirit of the martial arts.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I think the issue is more along the lines of quoting portions of written, published statements and those portions leaving a certain impression, when the entire item would leave a different impression or in the case of some things considering the source and what effect it later had.

Yes I think that it is rather silly to think that Gen Choi said TKD was 2,000 years old, as he always was taking credit for creating TKD. He did it in that same 1965 book. So we know that Gen Choi was not 2,000 years old.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
See so GM Lee, who I admire & who I feel should be publicly credited with his vitally important role in Kukki TKD, but he also was the one who crafted the fabrication about TKD being 2,000 years old & back in 2002 felt it was time to set the record straight, by disclosing the fact, karate men made TKD. It is not 2,000 years old. And how they did it was by emphasizing the new sports rules that they devised. It is plain to see.

Like I said, if it would make you happy, then feel free to tell the world that GM LEE Chong Woo did steal the 2000 year old lie about Taekwondo's origins from General Choi, that in fact it was General Choi, not GM LEE Chong Woo, who created the lie that Taekwondo is 2000 years old.

Geez I wonder why you keep missing the point. Plus you are not stating things as accurately as you can. Now please understand that in Gen Choi's book that he wrote in 1965, he gives a brief history of TKD. In this piece he goes through great lengths to show that Korea had its own martial arts 1,300 years ago. He never mentions 2,000 years, that was what GM Lee Chong Woo inserted. So both Gen Choi & GM Lee go through great pain to paint the picture that Korea had martial arts in the past, 1,300 t0 2,000 years ago.
I am sure that they both do this to get 1 up on Japan. It is even implied that culture spread to Japan from China via Korea. This is another back door way to say, hey even if TKD came from Japan, we gave Japan martial arts anyway, so it is all Korean! Now I am sure that 1,300 or 2,000 years ago Korea had in place organized systems of fighting. However that was not the TKD we know today.
While both Gen Choi & GM Lee, along with many others, tell of Korea's long & proud history, it is Gen Choi, even in his 1965 book that clearly talks about his karate training in Japan & that he combined this with his exposure to Taek Kyon to make his TKD. None of the official KTA, KKW & WTF historical accounts come close to acknowledging karate's connection to TKD. they simply talk about what was going on in Korea 2,000 years ago. They talk about it for pages, then have that brief paragraph or 2 about the kwans opening after the liberation.

So which is it, Gen Choi is 1,300+ years old when he named & created his TK-D or he never ever claimed to be the founder of TK-D?
Gen Choi was always honest about the karate roots. He simply showed how he moved away from them. The Kukki TKD leaders simply did not do this. Steve Capener, PhD says this should have been ore of a focus. GM Lee simply stated it in 2002. But neither the KTA, KKW or WTF has seen fit to do so, so far, or did I miss that update?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

We are talking about what General Choi wrote in his 1965 book, not what one of the pioneers told me.
But in this case, your old story is inapplicable because we are talking about what General Choi wrote in his 1965 book, not what someone told somebody else.

No we are or some are only talking about a piece of what he wrote in his book, that he called a brief history of TKD. You do not talk about how he states he is the father of TKD, how he created it, how he combined karate with his knowledge of Taek Kyon to make his TK-D. Gen Choi never said that TKD was 2,000 years old! GM Lee Chong Woo, along with countless others who repeated the standard template that TKD was 2,000 years old that the KTA, KKW & WTF still put forth to this day!

 

[puunui]

This is the last time I am responding to this.

The biggest problem is with the confusion that while all TKD had the same roots, karate, they developed differently along 2 major routes, simply stated as Chang Hon or Original TKD & Kukki or Olympic TKD or even simpler, but maybe less accurate ITF & WTF.

Chang Hon is NOT original Taekwondo. Original Taekwondo is Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo. When the name was developed in December 1954 and finally approved by President Rhee in April 1955, the two groups that adopted the name were the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan. But at the time the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan's curriculum were the same. This is why Chung Do Kwan members' dan rank was accepted while others from different Kwans were not.

There were 7 Koreans that we know of that studied martial arts abroad.

There are way more than seven Koreans that studied abroad. Off the topic of my head: 1) LEE Won Kuk; 2) CHUN Sang Sup; 3) YOON Byung In; 4) HWANG Kee; 5) RO Byung Jick; 6) YOON Kwe Byung; 7) CHOI Hong Hi; 8) KIM Ki Whang; 9) OYAMA Masatatsu; 10) Oyama Sensei's Korean teacher in Goju Ryu; 11) Judo practitioners who brought Judo to Korea; 12) Kumdo practitioners who brought Kumdo to Korea; 13) the members of GM YOON Kwe Byung's Kanbukan (Korean Martial Arts Gym) in Japan; 14) CHOI Yong Sool; 15) the other Daito Ryu guy whose name I can never remember; 16) other Koreans who studied under TAKEDA Sokaku Sensei listed in Takeda Sensei's enrollment books; 17) Mr. Kim, who allegedly taught General Choi in Japan; 18) Kung Fu practitioners who brought Kung Fu to Korea; 19) Sensei Richard Kim;

The term or label TKD was 1st used in the military by soldiers. The term eventually agreed upon by the others was Tae Soo Do.

See above. The name was first used by the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan, not only in the military. In fact, the Chung Do Kwan Jang was present and was a member of the naming committee so of course he was going to use the name. The Chung Do Kwan dan certificates issued by GM Son had the name "Taekwondo" on it. And as was recently shown, the "Korea Taekwondo Association" name was still being used prior to the official changing from Taesoodo to Taekwondo, in August 1965. If you wish to give credit, give credit to the Chung Do Kwan and its members, including but not limited to its members in the Oh Do Kwan, for first using the name.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Puunui, would you please share the source and tell of any other sources you know relating to the thinking and choices made to move in the direction of sport and competitive sparring?

Read accounts of Dr Kim Un Yong & also the 2002 Yook interview of GM Lee Chong Woo, along with noted scholar Steve Capener, PhD. All the kwans were doing there own thing, which early on was mostly karate. A way to unite them was around a common set of rules that were different from the ones in place at the time, which I guess came from karate as well. The push for these rules, which in similar fashion were used under the Korean Tae Soo Do Association in the early 1960s. Dr Kim when he came on board in 1971 had a vision to make it Korea's national sport, then move it to various international sports bodies for acceptance, as a prelude to Olympic sport status. He plan was brilliant & obviously worked well.
Now the plan to unify training methods & system can follow. Having a world championship in Poomsae will also move that forward.

 

[puunui]

Geez I wonder why you keep missing the point. Plus you are not stating things as accurately as you can.

Unlike you, I quote directly from his book. It doesn't get anymore accurate than that.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Interesting stuff about GM Lee being involved in gagee-chigee ("branch trimming") in some TKD matches.

Pax,

Chris

Of course this is also part of understanding the nasty Korean politics & how it shaped TKD & the times that the development took place in. These are fairly complex concepts.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

GM Hong never said that Eui Am was named after President Rhee. It has that General Choi "also made the Eui Am Hyung."
This is what GM Hong said about General Choi in the Modern History book: In the 1950's, CHOI Hong Hee's Chang Hon Ryu forms Ge Baek and Choong Moo used at the Oh Do Kwan was included in this [1962] promotion test. HONG Jong Pyo criticized CHOI Hong Hi and the Chang Hon Ryu: "CHOI Hong Hi is a historical figure, and he was brave, but at one time, he had a strong connection with former ROK President RHEE Syng Man and tried to kiss up to him with those forms. He also made the Eui Am Hyung."

No Gen Choi did make a form named after President Rhee, the name escapes me, as it never took hold or become a part of the syllabus.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The problem from my perspective is too many people think "research" means booting up google and typing "taekwondo history". Then to make matters worse, they misread what is written, and go off on a wild tangent based on that erroneous assumption and misunderstanding. Then when I point to the original source and quote it in its entirety, the person gets all defensive and goes with some long winded argument (without facts) about why they are correct.

If it upsets you that much, then I won't share anymore historical information. I did the research for me anyway, to further my own personal understanding and not for sharing with the world. I'll stop and then you can continue "believe" whatever you want and be happy.

Not sure what this means, but I do hope that you do continue to share your valuable insight with me & other readers of this forum.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

....... Once again please keep telling and giving your views about TKD and how General Chui and other lie and only your people can tell the truth.:asian:

Please understand that there is much confusion & outright distortion with the telling of TKD's history. Gen Choi had many powerful enemies because of his outspoken political views that shed light on the brutality of the military dictators. Gen Choi did in fact make a Korean martial art of self defence, along with his soldiers & followers, who then spread it around the world, even before the WTF was formed. So it is not so much that he is lying, he simply is not talking about Kukki TKD. Now to be fair, Gen Choi also had great disdain for them as well & viewed them as karate.
Truth be told, they all cam from karate, but moved away from it in different ways, with neither side even acknowledging the other, never mind give them credit.
I for one, say this is silly & that it is long overdue that a new & proper perspective respectful of both sides & the independents, crediting all that are deserving take place. We can start it here!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I guess I am confused if one of the Tenets is Integrity in TKD why say something is 2000 years old when it is not, because they felt it was justify and accepted makes it OK?

They simply had to do it for nationalist purposes. However while the context of the times may have demanded it, they could not foresee that TKD would have such far reaching effect & that the internet, along with real freedom of speech & the press in south Korea, would eventually shed light on this fabrication.

 

[puunui]

Truth be told, they all cam from karate, but moved away from it in different ways, with neither side even acknowledging the other, never mind give them credit. I for one, say this is silly & that it is long overdue that a new & proper perspective respectful of both sides & the independents, crediting all that are deserving take place. We can start it here!

The pioneers aren't interested in credit. The idea of credit takes away from the idea that everyone contributed to Taekwondo's creation and development, and therefore no one person should be singled out. If the pioneers wanted credit, they would have put their names in prominently in all of the Kukkiwon and WTF publications. The closest thing to anyone receiving any credit is indirectly through the names and philosophy behind the three highest Kukkiwon poomsae, Chonkwon, Hansu and Ilyeo, which are indirect references to the Chang Moo Kwan (Chonkwon), Chungdokwan (Hansu) and Jidokwan (Ilyeo).

 

[puunui]

No we are or some are only talking about a piece of what he wrote in his book, that he called a brief history of TKD. You do not talk about how he states he is the father of TKD, how he created it, how he combined karate with his knowledge of Taek Kyon to make his TK-D. Gen Choi never said that TKD was 2,000 years old! GM Lee Chong Woo, along with countless others who repeated the standard template that TKD was 2,000 years old that the KTA, KKW & WTF still put forth to this day!

Look at the title of this subject. We are talking about what General Choi wrote in the "A Brief History of Taekwon-Do" section of his 1965 book, not that other stuff you are mentioning. But if you want to quote the dustcover and whatever else from the 1965 book (as opposed to paraphrasing), then be my guest.

Ok, enough. I'm done.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I will say that I have probably learned more from these exchanges than you have. But see, that is the thing that you never understood about me, that I wasn't here to convince you or anyone else to see things my way. My purpose for posting here is to learn.

Me too & please keep the exchanges going!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

That and doing research with a predetermined outcome in mind (general comment, not directed at anyone specifically). People often have a point that they wish to prove, so they will present 'proof' in the form of partial or inapplicable things found either on google or in publications.

There certainly is nothing wrong with trying to support one's points with some kind of source, but there also comes a point where people need to look at what is actually written and evaluate what it says rather than grasping for the minutia that will seemingly prove them right when copied and pasted in a quote.

Daniel

Yes I have learned so much in my research when I looked for outside sources that challenged my previously held beliefs or assumptions.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

In short, Koreans know that kicking is part of their culture, but how do you explain that to non-Koreans who want proof in the form of dates, documentation, and other "evidence"? So they did the best that they could, which is look at the historical records and books to explain their cultural affinity for kicking competitions.
Is it persuasive? Maybe not. But that is all they have to go on, which GM Lee admits was not much, especially since Taekkyon itself as an art is so poorly documented. It is so poorly documented that they could not even find chinese hanmoon characters for Taekkyon,which is why we have Taekwon, the closest thing to taekkyon. If there were chinese characters for taekkyon, then the art name would be Taekkyondo, not Taekwondo.
If that effort results in people thinking that all of this was "lies", then so be it. You can't please everyone.

I think that in terms of making TKD connect to Korean culture & a preference for legs over hands, then yes, it is good. However the mistake in my view was to simply have pages that go back all those years & not much more than a paragraph on the all important formative years. This was the main difference between Gen Choi's history, as he goes on with pages of what he did during the formative years.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I like to think of taekwondo as being both a modern Korean art and the inheritor of Korean martial tradtion that predates it.

Personally, I think that too many people get caught up and sidetracked by this. I should know; I was one of them. Now? It doesn't bother me. Taekwondo is an art without a single founder. Connecting it to older KMA through the more advanced kicking techniques is certainly reasonable. Am I crazy about how it is presented? Not really, but no longer bothers me. It is such a minor detail in the grand scheme of things that getting worked up over it is kind of pointless.

Daniel

Agreed. While Gen Choi comes closest to a single founder for his Chang Hon, ITF or Original TKD, he was not the single founder, but rather a leader of that movement, with many of his soldiers & other followers deserving some credit as well. But it must be made clear that he had little if anything to do with Kukki TKD, WTF or Olympic TKD. In fact he was a major thorn in their side.
I would like to know more about the Kukki TKD leaders, as I think they deserve so much credit!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that in terms of making TKD connect to Korean culture & a preference for legs over hands, then yes, it is good. However the mistake in my view was to simply have pages that go back all those years & not much more than a paragraph on the all important formative years. This was the main difference between Gen Choi's history, as he goes on with pages of what he did during the formative years.

If you are referring to the Kukkiwon website, then this was probably the best way to have handled it. If they had gone into greater detail, then people would complain that this, that or the other person was left out, slighted, or in some way not treated well, so its best that they simply kept it brief.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Were the pioneers perfect? Of course not, they made mistakes, acted self serving sometimes, but they all had the same goal that they were shooting for, which was to create something unique and special to give to the world. I want to understand their highest ideals, because that is the place where Taekwondo was created. It was their contribution and gift to the human race and to the world, and I personally want to understand their motivations and their efforts and struggles to give us that gift.

Yes I think it was a great gift to the world. It was 1st spread outside of Korea as TKD in 1959 when Gen Choi led the military TKD team to Vietnam & Taiwan. Then of course in 1962 when they spread it to Malaysia & Vietnam, followed by the Kukki TKD goodwill tour in 1965 around the world. I for one think that all these Pioneers on both the Chang Hon & Kukki side should be credited.