A Brief History of Taekwon-Do by General Choi

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes Sir it would make some sense to move that debate, but I kept it here as this is a debate about the history of TKD by Gen Choi.

I didn't say anything about moving it. I said that it was a pointless arguement. See the rest of my response on the original taekwondo thread, since Glenn already started one.

Unless the General called his system "original taekwondo" in his History of TKD (maybe he did) then the appelation of original is a construct of devotees of his system and has no place in a debate about the History of TKD by Gen. Choi.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Yes thank you for the additional info. Now I did read that he was jailed, along with his family. If I recall correctly it was of an interview that he gave, so it was coming from him.

If you are speaking about the Taekwondo Times interview, it obviously contained errors in translation, due to the misunderstanding of the interviewer/interpreter, who I know. We actually traveled to Korea together. I spoke to GM Lee about that article and my discussion was different than what was printed, mainly because I had a clearly understanding of the background information.

The point remains that GM Lee was on the scene in Korea from 1944/5 to 1950, 6 years tops, which I clearly stated. It was his students at the CDK which ran with the ball he put into play. While he did return to Korea in 1967 & give a seminar, teach & correct etc, Kukki TKD was developing from the new sports rules that they put into place & the form sets that they were developing & would later develop.
GM Lee, who I personally have the utmost respect for, was not on the scene in Korea from 1950, 5 years before the name TKD even came into being. I have never wrote a disrespectful word about him or any other TKD leader.

Yes, you have written disrespectful things about GM Lee George. The above is one example, which attempts to minimize his role in the development of Taekwondo. But we'll go with your definition, that he was not "on the scene" in Korea and therefore it was his students who ran with the ball. Got it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Glenn, if you are going to make a point to call people on their identities, then put your own in your signature. Or request to have your username changed to your actual name.

Edit: the question I had posed regarding 'George' has been withdrawn, as it has been answered on another thread.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Glenn, if you are going to make a point to call people on their identities, then put your own in your signature. Or request to have your username changed to your actual name.

People address me by my first name all the time. Everyone knows who I am. I don't hide under a screen name that infers a different gender and a different art. The identity of Mr. KarateMom is the biggest open secret on MT, at least among ITF practitioners.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

People address me by my first name all the time. Everyone knows who I am. I don't hide under a screen name that infers a different gender and a different art. The identity of Mr. KarateMom is the biggest open secret on MT, at least among ITF practitioners.

Fair enough.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I moved this thread as not to derail the topic about True TKD:

As an aside, GM Rhee wasn't the first to incorporate boxing into Taekwondo. There were two main schools that did that. One was Moo Duk Kwan GM OH Jae Joon, who taught at the Seoul YMCA for many years. He incorporated boxing, including the stance and hand positions into his sparring. Also the Han Kuk Che Yuk Kwan (Seoul Jidokwan HQ) had a boxing program. The Han Che people, notably GM LEE Byung Ro (first Taekwondoin to receive Kukkiwon 10th Dan) studied boxing and used that to create the steps and sparring strategies that are used even today

I would also like to add that those that eventually created Chang Hon TKD did have various levels of experience with boxing & did incorporate it into the system that they were developing. It appears throughout with such techniques as crescent punch, angle punch, turning punch, upward punch, vertical stance etc. The use of the hands is very prevalent in ITF tournament sparring.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Unless the General called his system "original taekwondo" in his History of TKD (maybe he did) then the appelation of original is a construct of devotees of his system and has no place in a debate about the History of TKD by Gen. Choi.

Yes of course he did & did so from at least 1972 & he increased these claims, which by the way, hurt all of us in TKD. He did a disservice to not only his students, but all of TKD. he was a very political person & he used TKD & his ITF for his own agenda, which at times had some noble goals. But by mixing TKD with politics, he did the same thing he accused his govt of doing, along with his detractors, many of which he caused by his own actions. Then he goes to an state like the north & gives them a tool that he complained his govt abusing.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

If you are speaking about the Taekwondo Times interview, it obviously contained errors in translation, due to the misunderstanding of the interviewer/interpreter, who I know. We actually traveled to Korea together. I spoke to GM Lee about that article and my discussion was different than what was printed, mainly because I had a clearly understanding of the background information.

That is fair enough & it might have well been that article. Thanks for that added info.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes of course he did & did so from at least 1972 & he increased these claims, which by the way, hurt all of us in TKD. He did a disservice to not only his students, but all of TKD. he was a very political person & he used TKD & his ITF for his own agenda, which at times had some noble goals. But by mixing TKD with politics, he did the same thing he accused his govt of doing, along with his detractors, many of which he caused by his own actions. Then he goes to an state like the north & gives them a tool that he complained his govt abusing.

If he was doing CDK at the time of the submission of the name Taekwondo, then he submitted the name for CDK, which would mean that he called CDK 'original' taekwondo, only to change his mind after being kicked out of the sandbox by the other kids.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
The point remains that GM Lee was on the scene in Korea from 1944/5 to 1950, 6 years tops, which I clearly stated. It was his students at the CDK which ran with the ball he put into play. While he did return to Korea in 1967 & give a seminar, teach & correct etc, Kukki TKD was developing from the new sports rules that they put into place & the form sets that they were developing & would later develop.
GM Lee, who I personally have the utmost respect for, was not on the scene in Korea from 1950, 5 years before the name TKD even came into being. I have never wrote a disrespectful word about him or any other TKD leader.

The above is one example, which attempts to minimize his role in the development of Taekwondo. But we'll go with your definition, that he was not "on the scene" in Korea and therefore it was his students who ran with the ball. Got it.

I am sorry but I do not think that was disrespectful, nor was it my intent. I have nothing but respect for GM Lee & feel he needs to be credited & thanked by a more complete history of TKD, by all entities, including those based in Korea. I guess we will have to agree to disagree & let readers decide.
I will state again, that GM Lee is a pivotal figure in TKD's history & development. A case could be made & I would make it, that he can be considered the father of TKD.
Now when he was in Korea, they tried to unify under the name of Kong Su Do & Tang Su Do. GM Lee was simply not present in Korea when the name TKD came into being. He also was not personally involved in any of the TKD unification efforts of the 1950s, or the Tae Soo Do unification efforts in 1961, which eventually adopted the name TKD in 1965.
Many of his students were & did great work in eventually giving the world TKD. That alone is a major, major contribution & his many contributions were not limited to just that.
I would have no problem making a separate topic to highlight this important, iconic TKD figure.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

If he was doing CDK at the time of the submission of the name Taekwondo, then he submitted the name for CDK, which would mean that he called CDK 'original' taekwondo, only to change his mind after being kicked out of the sandbox by the other kids.

That is 1 way of looking at it.
I think that they all were pretty much doing the basic karate that was brought back to Korea after & during the occupation period by 7 Koreans, with Gen Choi being 1 of the 7. He did train in karate as well. I think that while many Koreans, not limited to these 7, all had various notions or ideas & visions of how they should move forward with their Korean martial art training. So it does appear that when the name was initially submitted, it may have been as an umbrella term, even though some may have had visions of their own.
Certainly it is common sense that it would be hard enough to get someone to adopt a name for nationalist purposes, then to change what they were doing or adopt a new system. We see how numerous attempts from the 1940s to the 1960s all fell apart, often due to who would be in charge of testing & testing standards, which gets to technical training.
Dr Kim Un Yong & the Kukki TKD pioneers had a great idea. Their model was most successful.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That is 1 way of looking at it.
I think that they all were pretty much doing the basic karate that was brought back to Korea after & during the occupation period by 7 Koreans, with Gen Choi being 1 of the 7. He did train in karate as well. I think that while many Koreans, not limited to these 7, all had various notions or ideas & visions of how they should move forward with their Korean martial art training. So it does appear that when the name was initially submitted, it may have been as an umbrella term, even though some may have had visions of their own.
Certainly it is common sense that it would be hard enough to get someone to adopt a name for nationalist purposes, then to change what they were doing or adopt a new system. We see how numerous attempts from the 1940s to the 1960s all fell apart, often due to who would be in charge of testing & testing standards, which gets to technical training.
Dr Kim Un Yong & the Kukki TKD pioneers had a great idea. Their model was most successful.

See my response in the other thread.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Moved to this thread, as not to derail the other topic:

The boxing incorporation in Taekwondo was more in the sparring, since boxing is a sparring based activity, and is not forms oriented. As an aside, I have been watching this show on FX I think it is, Lights Out. Last night's episode was about a guy who didn't keep his hands up and ended up getting knocked out.

This is one of my primary criticisms of forms practice as generally done in TKD. To me, I think they should be a more integrated activity with clear linkages into basics, sparring, and practical application.
Students often look upon pattern practice as useless and a time filler and I don't fault them if they've never trained forms in a comprehensive, integrated fashion.

Yes & it is a shortfall as viewed by some.
I would say that the ITF did try to an extent to add them to their pattern set with the incorporation of turning, angle, crescent punches, along with both obverse & reverse punches with the forefist, depending on the stances utilized in the respective Tul.
But the boxing influence is most definitely relected in the 6 types of sparring the ITF has, as well as their tournament rules sparring.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

If he was doing CDK at the time of the submission of the name Taekwondo, then he submitted the name for CDK, which would mean that he called CDK 'original' taekwondo, only to change his mind after being kicked out of the sandbox by the other kids.

Daniel

Just to further clarify my response to your above post, Gen Choi was doing Tang Su Do, essentially Korean karate, as he trained in karate while in Japan. So he was not doing CDK, he was doing Tang Su Do, which the CDK was basically doing as well.
While we know from common sense that the 7 Koreans learned karate & then participated in the early kwans, doing basically karate, with the natural differences from 1 instructor to the next, with the different emphasis & focus that different kwans had.
It appears that the name TKD was offered for nationalist purposes to move from the Japanese linked or based names being used. Since they were all doing basically the same thing, I guess it can be viewed as being offered as an umbrella term.
The big point is that it was not accepted by all the kwans in 1955, as only 2 were represented. In 1957 & 59, more attempts were made to unfiy, but they did not hold.
Clearly in 1961, the unification effort decided on the new compromise name of Tae Su Do. However some still clung to the name of TKD & used it continuously from 1955 forward.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Yes I understand. But we must realize that complex issues have no real easy answers.

Sure, but my question was a relatively simple one. What was GM Lee teaching at the CDK that was different from what he learned in Japan? It's not a complex question, at all.

Pax,

Chris

Yes it is a simple question, not a complex question at all. The answer is simple, they were basically doing the karate he learned abroad, plus his exposure to Chinese martial arts, along with his particular take, focus, methods of instructing etc.
The ISSUE is COMPLEX, as it goes back to the link to karate that Korea was trying to hide for nationalist purposes.
Kukki TKD came from Korean karate trained 2nd generation leaders of the original kwans. They unified under the name of TKD, under a new set of tournament sports rules, new Palgwe forms, etc in the 1960s.
Chang Hon came from the ROK Army & was a consolidation of fighting for military that initially unified around the 1st set of Korean patterns.
Gen Choi always acknowledged his karate roots. He explained & emphasized how his TKD moved away from karate.
The KKW in its official publications to the general public do not make the karate connection. They instead explain & emphasize the connection to Korea's history & martial arts of 2,000 years ago.
That is changing.

 

[puunui]

Just to further clarify my response to your above post, Gen Choi was doing Tang Su Do, essentially Korean karate, as he trained in karate while in Japan. So he was not doing CDK, he was doing Tang Su Do, which the CDK was basically doing as well.

Which was followed by more nonsensical off topic rambling about 7 koreans and the like. George do you think if you keep fitting that into every other post, that it will somehow become accepted as true?

And by the way, in 1955 General Choi was practicing Tang Soo Do. He wasn't practicing any martial arts because he was too busy being a general in the ROK Army. And even if he was practicing while in the ROK Army, it wasn't Tang Soo Do. Tang Soo Do is a unique name that was created by GM LEE Won Kuk.

 

[puunui]

Yes it is a simple question, not a complex question at all. The answer is simple, they were basically doing the karate he learned abroad, plus his exposure to Chinese martial arts, along with his particular take, focus, methods of instructing etc.
The ISSUE is COMPLEX, as it goes back to the link to karate that Korea was trying to hide for nationalist purposes.
Kukki TKD came from Korean karate trained 2nd generation leaders of the original kwans. They unified under the name of TKD, under a new set of tournament sports rules, new Palgwe forms, etc in the 1960s.
Chang Hon came from the ROK Army & was a consolidation of fighting for military that initially unified around the 1st set of Korean patterns.
Gen Choi always acknowledged his karate roots. He explained & emphasized how his TKD moved away from karate.
The KKW in its official publications to the general public do not make the karate connection. They instead explain & emphasize the connection to Korea's history & martial arts of 2,000 years ago.
That is changing.

If I wanted this, I would go dust off a phonograph and listen to a broken record. Again, Mr. Vitale, what does this rambling have to do with the issue chrispillertkd brought up, which is what was GM LEE Won Kuk teaching when he returned to Korea in 1944?

 

[puunui]

Yes of course he did & did so from at least 1972 & he increased these claims, which by the way, hurt all of us in TKD. He did a disservice to not only his students, but all of TKD. he was a very political person & he used TKD & his ITF for his own agenda, which at times had some noble goals. But by mixing TKD with politics, he did the same thing he accused his govt of doing, along with his detractors, many of which he caused by his own actions. Then he goes to an state like the north & gives them a tool that he complained his govt abusing.

Mr. Vitale, if that is the case, then why are you out there handing a plaque to his wife at the Hall of Fame?

 

[puunui]

That is fair enough & it might have well been that article. Thanks for that added info.

Mr. Vitale, they call you a renown scholar on Taekwon-Do history. Wasn't it obvious to you, the renown scholar that you are, that there were glaring mistakes? For example, it mentions Goju Ryu in there. Did you assume that was true?

 

[puunui]

I am sorry but I do not think that was disrespectful, nor was it my intent.

That is one of the problems, not seeing disrespect when others do.

I have nothing but respect for GM Lee & feel he needs to be credited & thanked by a more complete history of TKD, by all entities, including those based in Korea. I guess we will have to agree to disagree & let readers decide.

They have already. And Mr. Vitale, I would also like to say that the readers have probably decided things about you as well, with a screen name that misrepresents your gender and your art.

I will state again, that GM Lee is a pivotal figure in TKD's history & development. A case could be made & I would make it, that he can be considered the father of TKD.

That's ok George. You don't have to make any case for anyone except General Choi.