5 reasons TaeKwonDo as a system (not individual techniques) breaks down in a Muay Thai ring

[MA_Student]

Because I didn't think I need to spell out every single sentence in order for you guys to get it. But from here on, I will be ULTRA precise. I have to take great care of native speakers, it seems.

What a hero

 

[Tez3]

One does not exclude the other. You are both trying to correct me and be sarcastic/funny at the same time. You have a tendency to jump on words, which you deem incorrectly used, as in your previous post, when it is unwarranted. Trying to be a wiseass.

Oh I am cut to the quick, dear boy, how could you!
Actually and I don't know how to break this to you, I have a first class (1:1) degree in English language and literature from a top British university which is why I sound as if I'm right...because I am. Yes I am being extremely pedantic about words but that's because you are trying to twist and turn what is being said to you because you refuse to believe you are wrong. You seem to think you know it all, martial arts styles you don't train, the martial art you do train but don't know, what very experienced instructors know etc so yes I am jumping on words because you are so up yourself it's quite unbelievable. Synonyms for 'up yourself' include 'arrogant', big headed' and 'pompous'. You may not be in 'real life' but you are certainly coming across as an arrogant child here.

 

[Tez3]

Technically, it's pretty easy.

My mother told me never to hit a man when he's down...she said kick him, it's easier.

 

[Axiom]

[

Oh I am cut to the quick, dear boy, how could you!
Actually and I don't know how to break this to you, I have a first class (1:1) degree in English language and literature from a top British university which is why I sound as if I'm right...because I am..

No, you're not. It's perfectly correct to state "Do you know what the word X entails", if the context in which the word is used is already understood.

 

[Tez3]

[


No, you're not. It's perfectly correct to state "Do you know what the word X entails", if the context in which the word is used is already understood.

Actually to be perfectly correct you are incorrect. Words don't actually 'entail' anything they are words, actions entail.
Question. 'do you know what boxing entails?' Boxing being a verb, known by small children as a 'doing word' therefore an action. You asked what continuous entailed continuous is an adjective, 'a describing word' so nothing can be 'entailed' in an adjective only a noun.

Now to the context, it was clear to us that you didn't understand what was meant by continuous fighting and you then questioned another poster in a sarcastic manner asking if they understood what it meant so I felt I had to explicate to counter your logorrhea.


Of course one doesn't need to go to such lengths to explain words, generally we understand each other quite well without explanations of words but you my friend don't seem to understand that what you do when you post is insist on being pedantic about TKD, about testing for grades, about breaking, about boxing and now about Muay Thai. You lay down absolutes and tell us it is this way because you say it is. You get annoyed because I pick up on your use of words, but what you are doing to everyone here is telling them they are wrong, perhaps you can now understand how annoying it is when someone who has only trained for a couple of years and hasn't gained his black belt yet is telling instructors who have trained for decades they are wrong. if you listen and inwardly digest what people are saying, conversations will be more productive, no one is saying you don't have anything of worth to contribute but that you are a beginner, a novice and you are sounding off like a arrogant schoolboy. Calm down, listen more than you speak, read more than you write and I will stop picking up your words and others will treat you with more respect. ( not me though, I think you're a twit)

 

[Jaeimseu]

That's a separate matter. Fact is that WTF TaeKwondo is for all intents and purposes a stop format, despite being full contact.

Um, it's really not. Players may stop themselves, but they are free to continuously attack unless stopped by the referee. What experience do you have with WTF rules sparring other than seeing a few YouTube clips? Do you really think you've got it all figured out after four years of training?


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[Tony Dismukes]

the rules of MT preclude you using techniques other than MT so you cannot get a comparison.

I have to disagree on this one. Muay Thai rules not only allow the vast majority of TKD techniques, they actually allow a much higher percentage of the techniques in the art of TKD than TKD competition rules do. Theoretically, MT competition should be a better test for TKD (the martial art) than the sport of TKD is.

The same can't be said going the other direction, since TKD rules disallow 80+% of the MT arsenal.

I will outline why TaeKwondo, no matter contact level, or even rules, breaks down in a Muay Thai ring against a skilled Thaistylist. This despite the fact that all strikes in Muay Thai are also in TaeKwondo! My reasons may surprise you.

1. Footwork. TKDoins are often renowned for their speedy and light footwork. However, being light on your feet in a Thaiboxing ring also carries the disadvantage of being easier to knock OFF your feet. Thaiboxers in comparision are more flat footed but rock solid to the ground. Getting put on your butt repeatedly will wear and tear on you. And this will happen even more easily with one foot up in the air kicking..

2. The kicks. This ties in to the point above. TaeKwondo kicks are snappy and quick of the feet, but makes one liable to get pushed off balance in a rule set in which you can actually grabb and push down kicks. Stability will once again be a major question mark. This is demoralising in the long run and, the kicks you perfected in the dojang won't get you as many points (or KO'S) as you might have previously though..

3. The hands. To break a skilled Muay Thai fighters defence in the ring you will need to soften him/her up with boxing, and/ or have a boxing defence to punches. Kicking alone will not get the job done against a legit guy(especially not concidering 1 and 2). TKD guys are not drilled in either offense or defence to the level required.

4. No clinch. This can be modified in theory, but I will list it here given that most clubs neglect it.

5. Lack of Continious fighting. TKD is geared towards one strike, one victory philosophy. Even WTF rules that allow full contact break after making contact. It will be an adjustment for a TKD fighter simply fight on and is definately puts him/her in a slight psychological disadvantage, compared to the thaifighter.

Feel free to comment and disagree on any of the points!

1 & 2: Incorrect. The TKD stance, footwork, and kicks are not inherently more unstable than the MT stance, footwork, and kicks.

3: Eh. I personally prefer a boxing approach to punching, but the TKD approach can work if it's trained to a high enough level. The real reason you tend to see a higher level of punching in MT comes down to two main factors:
a) Most MT fighters are professionals, while most TKD practitioners are hobbyists.
b) A high percentage of TKD practitioners who do train like professionals are preparing for a sport where punching isn't rewarded nearly so much.

4: Oh yes. The MT clinch is a highly developed weapon which does not have an equivalent in TKD.

5: Nah. Lots of TKD practitioners train for continuous fighting.

Drop bear provided evidence above that it is possible for TKD practitioners to compete successfully under MT rules. As far as why you don't see more of them do so (even though it would allow them to use more of their art than TKD competition does), I'll provide a few ideas.

• As noted above, most TKD practitioners are hobbyists. MT competition is dominated by professionals. In Thailand you have kids starting to fight at age 12 to help support their families.
• Many TKD competitors are more interested in the sport of TKD than the full martial art. Sport TKD has it's own focus and an athlete who enjoys that particular kind of competition may not have any particular drive to compete in a different format which would bring different techniques to the forefront.
• In MT competition, knees, elbows, and low kicks are important. These techniques exist in TKD, but most schools don't emphasize them to the extent they would need to in order to build successful fighters in the MT arena. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, but most don't.
• The clinch. As mentioned above, this is hugely important in MT. TKD has no real equivalent and this skill would need to be developed for success under MT rules.

 

[Axiom]

Players may stop themselves, but they are free to continuously attack unless stopped by the referee.
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That's what I meant.

 

[TrueJim]

You know, there's a whole website devoted to this topic: Home

 

[CB Jones]

I have to disagree on this one. Muay Thai rules not only allow the vast majority of TKD techniques, they actually allow a much higher percentage of the techniques in the art of TKD than TKD competition rules do. Theoretically, MT competition should be a better test for TKD (the martial art) than the sport of TKD is.

The same can't be said going the other direction, since TKD rules disallow 80+% of the MT arsenal.



1 & 2: Incorrect. The TKD stance, footwork, and kicks are not inherently more unstable than the MT stance, footwork, and kicks.

3: Eh. I personally prefer a boxing approach to punching, but the TKD approach can work if it's trained to a high enough level. The real reason you tend to see a higher level of punching in MT comes down to two main factors:
a) Most MT fighters are professionals, while most TKD practitioners are hobbyists.
b) A high percentage of TKD practitioners who do train like professionals are preparing for a sport where punching isn't rewarded nearly so much.

4: Oh yes. The MT clinch is a highly developed weapon which does not have an equivalent in TKD.

5: Nah. Lots of TKD practitioners train for continuous fighting.

Drop bear provided evidence above that it is possible for TKD practitioners to compete successfully under MT rules. As far as why you don't see more of them do so (even though it would allow them to use more of their art than TKD competition does), I'll provide a few ideas.

• As noted above, most TKD practitioners are hobbyists. MT competition is dominated by professionals. In Thailand you have kids starting to fight at age 12 to help support their families.
• Many TKD competitors are more interested in the sport of TKD than the full martial art. Sport TKD has it's own focus and an athlete who enjoys that particular kind of competition may not have any particular drive to compete in a different format which would bring different techniques to the forefront.
• In MT competition, knees, elbows, and low kicks are important. These techniques exist in TKD, but most schools don't emphasize them to the extent they would need to in order to build successful fighters in the MT arena. There's nothing stopping them from doing so, but most don't.
• The clinch. As mentioned above, this is hugely important in MT. TKD has no real equivalent and this skill would need to be developed for success under MT rules.

Well put!

 

[Axiom]

1 & 2: Incorrect. The TKD stance, footwork, and kicks are not inherently more unstable than the MT stance, footwork, and kicks.

This has been tested. The TaeKwondo guy kicked the hardest (probably mostly due to genetics) but when they had them stand on a rolling platform-- the TKDoin was struggling and constantly out of balance, while the Muay Thai guy was almost equally solid as on the non moving platform.

I didn't claim the footwork was instable , it is however incompatible with thaifighting, (unless you're one bad MFO)

 

[CB Jones]

This has been tested. The TaeKwondo guy kicked the hardest (probably mostly due to genetics) but when they had them stand on a rolling platform-- the TKDoin was struggling and constantly out of balance, while the Muay Thai guy was almost equally solid as on the non moving platform.

I didn't claim the footwork was instable , it is however incompatible with thaifighting, (unless you're one bad MFO)

Did it really prove it was more unstable or was it proved for that test the MT kick was better suited?

 

[Axiom]

Did it really prove it was more unstable or was it proved for that test the MT kick was better suited?

I took that to mean that the Muay Thai guy had better balance, which is probably due to his more solid footwork. Something like that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I took that to mean that the Muay Thai guy had better balance, which is probably due to his more solid footwork. Something like that.

I don't know the exact test, but by your description, it would seem to demonstrate that the MT kick has less lateral force (rotating more in place), which will matter a lot on a platform that can roll in response to that force, but wouldn't make much difference on a stable platform.

 

[CB Jones]

I took that to mean that the Muay Thai guy had better balance, which is probably due to his more solid footwork. Something like that.

How was the test set up was what I was asking

Test might not have check balance. TKD kick thrown in same direction of wheels rolling allowing the platform to roll away and dampen the power.

Whereas a MY kick thrown at a direction across the direction if the wheels would maintain its power better.

 

[MA_Student]

This has been tested. The TaeKwondo guy kicked the hardest (probably mostly due to genetics) but when they had them stand on a rolling platform-- the TKDoin was struggling and constantly out of balance, while the Muay Thai guy was almost equally solid as on the non moving platform.

I didn't claim the footwork was instable , it is however incompatible with thaifighting, (unless you're one bad MFO)

Well as long as they don't fight on a rolling platform they're all good

 

[Tez3]

Muay Thai rules not only allow the vast majority of TKD techniques, they actually allow a much higher percentage of the techniques in the art of TKD than TKD competition rules do. Theoretically, MT competition should be a better test for TKD (the martial art) than the sport of TKD is.

I was thinking less about techniques and more about the rules. If a TKD person turned up in a dobok looking to do TKD they he wouldn't be allowed in the ring, nor would a women in Thailand, though one or two are managing to fight. To the Thais the techniques in MT are theirs. To expect to fight in the Lumpini for example as a TKDist would be considered an insult.

 

[JR 137]

Frankly this a pointless discussion as THEY'RE DIFFERENT SPORTS. It's like comparing how a basketball player would do in a football match. They're different games different rules, different objectives different everything

Yeah, but they use a similar size and shaped ball, so aren't they really the same thing?

Edit: this assumes by football, you mean what I call soccer.

 

[Axiom]

I was thinking less about techniques and more about the rules. If a TKD person turned up in a dobok looking to do TKD they he wouldn't be allowed in the ring, nor would a women in Thailand, though one or two are managing to fight. To the Thais the techniques in MT are theirs. To expect to fight in the Lumpini for example as a TKDist would be considered an insult.

Yes. Mas Oyamas Kyokushin-Kais did not fight in the Lumpini stadium with Karate gis--- (and win 2-1 btw) Nope... Didn't happen because Tez said it wouldn't.

 

[MA_Student]

Yes. Mas Oyamas Kyokushin-Kais did not fight in the Lumpini stadium with Karate gis--- (and win 2-1 btw) Nope... Didn't happen because Tez said it wouldn't.

Stop embarassing yourself