3 Stages of Pain Compliance

[Christopher Adamchek]

Ok, so ive never been taught this directly per say but it seems to hold up well and im interested in how others learned/were taught about it? And if you have similar/unique examples.

0. Resistance
1. Compliance - to ease the pain they move how and were you want them
(generally a joint lock but not necessarily)
2. Retaliation - youve applied too much force, and they pain is so great they dont care about, and fight back
3. The Breaking Point - what ever your tugging, pushing, etc. breaks, snaps, etc. and they cant use it. they want to hold the area and usually comply to other force.

EX1
1. Ive demonstrated and felt a common hammer lock (like what police use) and have made people and been made to move where is pushed
2. Ive demonstrated and felt extra pressure and the urge and motion to want to retaliate, swing, kick, etc.
3. Ive NOT had the shoulder dislocated or done it to anyone but is painful, and awkward so i hear

EX2
1. Ive used and felt nose pull throws to their full effectiveness
2. Ive been hit in the nose (strikes and hard grappling bumps) that make me want to fight back harder
3. Ive broken someones nose and seen how quick people stop

 

[skribs]

I don't see 1 & 2 as steps, but different reactions in the individual. Some people will:

• Shut down or freeze
• Willingly comply (to stop the pain)
• Resist (tense up)
• Try to escape
• Try to fight back

These are all different responses to the "fight or flight" (or the new version which is "freeze, fight, or flight"). The difference between Step 1 and Step 2 as you describe them, is that one is a conscious thought and one is more reactionary.

I also disagree with the breaking point. Some pain compliance techniques rely on nerve pain instead of joint pain. These aren't likely to break anything, but will cause a lot of pain.

 

[Tez3]

The scary bit about doing martial arts is that not only do you get used to pain you also kind of enjoy it.

 

[hoshin1600]

i would add pain compliance could be broken down to joint manipulation and nerve center activation. while applying a joint manipulation may illicit a fighting response. i have been on the receiving end of nerve center activation where the mind just goes into shock. not able to respond or even hear.

 

[CB Jones]

Ok, so ive never been taught this directly per say but it seems to hold up well and im interested in how others learned/were taught about it? And if you have similar/unique examples.

0. Resistance
1. Compliance - to ease the pain they move how and were you want them
(generally a joint lock but not necessarily)
2. Retaliation - youve applied too much force, and they pain is so great they dont care about, and fight back
3. The Breaking Point - what ever your tugging, pushing, etc. breaks, snaps, etc. and they cant use it. they want to hold the area and usually comply to other force.

EX1
1. Ive demonstrated and felt a common hammer lock (like what police use) and have made people and been made to move where is pushed
2. Ive demonstrated and felt extra pressure and the urge and motion to want to retaliate, swing, kick, etc.
3. Ive NOT had the shoulder dislocated or done it to anyone but is painful, and awkward so i hear

EX2
1. Ive used and felt nose pull throws to their full effectiveness
2. Ive been hit in the nose (strikes and hard grappling bumps) that make me want to fight back harder
3. Ive broken someones nose and seen how quick people stop

2 and 3 is not compliance it is just pain.

Pain compliance is the amount of pain needed to force compliance. 2 and 3 has not created compliance and pain needs to be continued until compliance.

The stages are:

1. Pain
2. Compliance
3. Restrained/Released

Ex. I apply pain to your shoulder until you comply and allow me to handcuff you once handcuffed I release you from the pain in your shoulder.

 

[jks9199]

2 and 3 is not compliance it is just pain.

Pain compliance is the amount of pain needed to force compliance. 2 and 3 has not created compliance and pain needs to be continued until compliance.

The stages are:

1. Pain
2. Compliance
3. Restrained/Released

Ex. I apply pain to your shoulder until you comply and allow me to handcuff you once handcuffed I release you from the pain in your shoulder.

Building on this, and stealing liberally from Rory Miller, Marc MacYoung, and others... Implicit in pain complaince tactics us the deal that the pain or immobilization stops when the resistance ceases. Violate that unwritten deal at your own risk...

Some do indeed respond by tensing or fighting back; you need to be able to control that response and not injure the subject.

Breaking or otherwise destroying the joint or limb isn't about pain compliance, it's about removing the ability resist.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[CB Jones]

Some do indeed respond by tensing or fighting back; you need to be able to control that response and not injure the subject.

More pain.

You can feel it when they reach their threshold and they are done.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

I don't see 1 & 2 as steps, but different reactions in the individual. Some people will:

• Shut down or freeze
• Willingly comply (to stop the pain)
• Resist (tense up)
• Try to escape
• Try to fight back

These are all different responses to the "fight or flight" (or the new version which is "freeze, fight, or flight"). The difference between Step 1 and Step 2 as you describe them, is that one is a conscious thought and one is more reactionary.

I also disagree with the breaking point. Some pain compliance techniques rely on nerve pain instead of joint pain. These aren't likely to break anything, but will cause a lot of pain.

I dont see them as different reactions - people will comply with enough force

and ive both consciously and reactionary - complied and resisted

theres still a "breaking" point for many nerve pains including temporary "numbness/paralysis", and blacking out, etc.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

i would add pain compliance could be broken down to joint manipulation and nerve center activation. while applying a joint manipulation may illicit a fighting response. i have been on the receiving end of nerve center activation where the mind just goes into shock. not able to respond or even hear.

valid, two types of pain compliance

starting to manipulate the joint or trying to grab and press on a nerve could have the same responses fight back response, its once youve added the proper force there is compliance, and an increase in force beyond their compliance can illicit a retaliation or breaking point

is this how you were taught pain compliance ?

 

[drop bear]

Knee on belly is a good mechanism to explain pain compliance as you probably won't get injured from it.

Here it is being used to force a reaction.

Lung compression to reduce the amount of energy they have to fight back.

 

[dvcochran]

More pain.

You can feel it when they reach their threshold and they are done.

Agree, but there is always that one guy who just doesn't feel pain or not until it is too late for causing joint damage.

 

[dvcochran]

valid, two types of pain compliance

starting to manipulate the joint or trying to grab and press on a nerve could have the same responses fight back response, its once youve added the proper force there is compliance, and an increase in force beyond their compliance can illicit a retaliation or breaking point

is this how you were taught pain compliance ?

Honestly, we were taught more of the "if a little is good, more is even better" approach. Being a smaller guy that was always my mindset when performing a takedown on a bigger or juiced up person.

 

[CB Jones]

but there is always that one guy who just doesn't feel pain

Pain Compliance doesn't work against them then....kinda like people on PCP. You are wasting your time trying for pain compliance.

not until it is too late for causing joint damage.

If it breaks....it breaks.....you should have complied sooner.

 

[punisher73]

Building on this, and stealing liberally from Rory Miller, Marc MacYoung, and others... Implicit in pain complaince tactics us the deal that the pain or immobilization stops when the resistance ceases. Violate that unwritten deal at your own risk...

Some do indeed respond by tensing or fighting back; you need to be able to control that response and not injure the subject.

Breaking or otherwise destroying the joint or limb isn't about pain compliance, it's about removing the ability resist.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Correct.

I know that is one of the key components to PPCT and its pain compliance techniques. Once you get the compliance, you maintain control but make the pain stop. If you keep hurting them after compliance you WILL trigger a more aggressive response. Almost like a survival mechanism in the brain.

 

[punisher73]

Also, thought I would add that some people just get more pissed when you cause them pain. They are going to fight back harder because of it. Pain compliance works well under most circumstances in which a person has most of the mental faculties to decide and still use reason and aren't under the influence of drugs or mental illness. In my experience, alcohol isn't as big a factor to the pain. It is a tool in the toolbox, nothing more and nothing less. If you always think that pain compliance is going to work, then you are going to be wrong a lot. If you think that pain compliance never works, then you are going to miss out on a great tool to de-escalate force situations.

 

[punisher73]

If it breaks....it breaks.....you should have complied sooner.

One of my biggest complaints on many joint locks when people try and apply them to law enforcement situations. They aren't really designed for pain compliance, they are designed to break/damage the joint. That opens you and your department up to a huge liability.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I would personally consider retaliation in the same bracket as resistance. If you want to get out of the hold you need to put a little force into it which could be deemed retaliation.
Would be interesting to note if anyone would purposely break their arm or so fourth to fight out of a lock or has done it. Obviously they would need to be on drugs. Maybe not purposely, but their arm breaks they dont feel the pain or enough to disable them then utilize the freedom of movement to attack you better.

@punisher73 Personally i think you are past the talking stage if you lay lands on someone, you aren't in the maim stage though.(kind of obvious) I would definitely use all my might to try and stop you putting me into a grappling position though or a joint lock so fourth.

Has anyone put any research into less damaging joint locks for pain compliance techniques for police?

 

[skribs]

I would personally consider retaliation in the same bracket as resistance. If you want to get out of the hold you need to put a little force into it which could be deemed retaliation.
Would be interesting to note if anyone would purposely break their arm or so fourth to fight out of a lock or has done it. Obviously they would need to be on drugs. Maybe not purposely, but their arm breaks they dont feel the pain or enough to disable them then utilize the freedom of movement to attack you better.

@punisher73 Personally i think you are past the talking stage if you lay lands on someone, you aren't in the maim stage though.(kind of obvious) I would definitely use all my might to try and stop you putting me into a grappling position though or a joint lock so fourth.

Has anyone put any research into less damaging joint locks for pain compliance techniques for police?

The fact you're using "all your might" proves you haven't been training. You don't get out of a joint lock with might, unless there is a severe strength disparity between you and your opponent that skews in your favor. You get out of a joint lock with proper movement.

 

[drop bear]

@punisher73 Personally i think you are past the talking stage if you lay lands on someone, you aren't in the maim stage though.(kind of obvious) I would definitely use all my might to try and stop you putting me into a grappling position though or a joint lock so fourth.

You can always negotiate. It doesn't really cost you anything.

 

[skribs]

You can always negotiate. It doesn't really cost you anything.

Talking is a free action.