macfion
White Belt
Jaysus , I'll see ye too 
2008 is Togakure Ryu
- Thread starter Bigshadow
- Start date
kagemaru74
White Belt
- Senban Shuriken (plastic and steel ) ( set of 9 at least )
- Kyoketsu Shoge
- Shinobigatana
- Shikomi Zue with chain inside
- Shikomi Zue with blade
- Shinobigatana (oniyuri and similar)
- Shuko (stelleand plastic)
- Kunai in (wooden ad steel )
- Kusarifundo (train rope and steel )
One of italian shidoshi told me so!!
But it seems too mcuh!
Maybe just biken jutsu and shuriken!!
Well we'll see!!
I Hope to go to Honbu this year!!
Happy training to you all!
Kage
- Kyoketsu Shoge
- Shinobigatana
- Shikomi Zue with chain inside
- Shikomi Zue with blade
- Shinobigatana (oniyuri and similar)
- Shuko (stelleand plastic)
- Kunai in (wooden ad steel )
- Kusarifundo (train rope and steel )
One of italian shidoshi told me so!!
But it seems too mcuh!
Maybe just biken jutsu and shuriken!!
Well we'll see!!
I Hope to go to Honbu this year!!
Happy training to you all!
Kage
Was this a list of things to bring? Because I'm fairly sure that plastic shuriken were not a traditional tool... :lol:
kagemaru74
White Belt
It's just for safe training, anyway you can try to hurt your deshi then in this case I will use a rifle - gun
:shooter:
:angel: <-- My ex deshi
Byez
Kage
Hello Dale,
We don't know each other but I have heard about you many times.
I will be in Japan from 15th ot 29th April and I will stay at the Azusa ryokan...
Last year we were in the same ryokan during the same period...
See you there!
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi Ronnin,
Well, where to start? Yes, there are specific kamae taught in Togakure Ryu. These include: Ichimonji no kamae
Doko no kamae
Hira no kamae
Hira Ichimonji no kamae
Kosei no kamae
Happogakure no kamae
Hachimonji no kamae
Hatto no kamae
Tonso no kamae
And, for Ninja Biken:
Ichi no kamae
Seigan no kamae
Chudan no kamae
Gedan no kamae
Tosui no kamae
Hasso no kamae
Kasumi no kamae
Totoku Hyoshi
I'm not going into detail about the specifics of each posture, mainly because they are based on individual interpretation of the tactic they represent, and also because it should be your instructors place to guide you to your understanding of the postures and their use. But suffice to say, these kamae are different and similar to kamae you should already be familiar with. Enjoy the theme of the year, and good luck with your exploration of the Ryu.
Well, where to start? Yes, there are specific kamae taught in Togakure Ryu. These include: Ichimonji no kamae
Doko no kamae
Hira no kamae
Hira Ichimonji no kamae
Kosei no kamae
Happogakure no kamae
Hachimonji no kamae
Hatto no kamae
Tonso no kamae
And, for Ninja Biken:
Ichi no kamae
Seigan no kamae
Chudan no kamae
Gedan no kamae
Tosui no kamae
Hasso no kamae
Kasumi no kamae
Totoku Hyoshi
I'm not going into detail about the specifics of each posture, mainly because they are based on individual interpretation of the tactic they represent, and also because it should be your instructors place to guide you to your understanding of the postures and their use. But suffice to say, these kamae are different and similar to kamae you should already be familiar with. Enjoy the theme of the year, and good luck with your exploration of the Ryu.
Ronnin
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 210
- Reaction score
- 4
so basically, all the kamae's used in the Bujinkan, are used in Togakure ?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
No, not quite all... and the names you read in the above lists are commonly used for different physical postures in different schools. For example, Hira Ichimonji no kamae in Gyokko Ryu has your weight lower, in Togakure Ryu you are a little more upright to facilitate lighter movement, in Koto Ryu you are actually on one leg...
We are also missing postures such as Katate Seigan no kamae (Kukishinden Ryu Dakentaijutsu, the same name also used in Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu and some branches of Takagi Ryu - but in Takagi Ryu the posture is VERY different), Bobi no kamae (Koto Ryu), Hoko no kamae (Koto Ryu), Seiza and Fudoza (called Za no kamae in Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu, with Seiza having a number of variations depending on the Ryu-ha, and when the school is based) Hannetsu no kamae and Hannin no kamae (Gyokko Ryu), the various Gassho postures (mainly associated with Gyokko, but also linked to various other lineages from the Hakuun knowledge - Togakure, Gyokushin, Gikan etc), and a number of others. In terms of the sword kamae, this is just a small list, Kukishinden has quite a number of others not listed here, including a few hidden amongst sections other than the Bikenjutsu Kata.
We are also missing postures such as Katate Seigan no kamae (Kukishinden Ryu Dakentaijutsu, the same name also used in Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu and some branches of Takagi Ryu - but in Takagi Ryu the posture is VERY different), Bobi no kamae (Koto Ryu), Hoko no kamae (Koto Ryu), Seiza and Fudoza (called Za no kamae in Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu, with Seiza having a number of variations depending on the Ryu-ha, and when the school is based) Hannetsu no kamae and Hannin no kamae (Gyokko Ryu), the various Gassho postures (mainly associated with Gyokko, but also linked to various other lineages from the Hakuun knowledge - Togakure, Gyokushin, Gikan etc), and a number of others. In terms of the sword kamae, this is just a small list, Kukishinden has quite a number of others not listed here, including a few hidden amongst sections other than the Bikenjutsu Kata.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Just one point further on the study of kamae of a particular Ryu-ha. From my point of view, the kamae are most and least important of the aspects of taijutsu of any given school. It should be remembered that the kamae are simply (physical) expressions of a particular strategy/tactic (often given the term "feeling"), and are by no means set in stone. Personally, I encourage students, particularly when they are very new, to be as definite and "correct" in their form for kamae as possible, but I don't have the same need for myself. Why? Because the correct feeling/attitude/strategy/tactic being expressed is the most important point. Without having the correct feeling, you simply won't get the technique to work in the way it is intended. You may be able to muscle your way through, but that is not the way it is intended. However, the quickest, easiest, simplest method to discover that feeling/attitude etc is to have the correct form.
This method of teaching is known as "modelling", and is very common in many other areas (NLP probably being amongst the most obvious), and some very sage advise attached to it... such as "Fake it 'til you make it!".
The basic rule (for anyone unfamiliar with this concept, and you shouldn't be, because it is the very basis for the Densho in the first place!) is that as a beginner, you have no experience to refer to and therefore act from. So you go to a source (teacher, Densho, role model etc) who has experience and success in your chosen field, and, not knowing why they do the things they do, but knowing that what they do brings them success, you copy what they do. Eventually, their actions (and by virtue of their actions, their mind-set) become ingrained in you, and your actions begin to generate the same form of success as the source.
Once you have this method of the source as an integrated part of yourself, you can abandon this method of copying, and find your own paths to the success you desire. The problem, of course, comes when people prematurely believe they have reached this point, and make up their own methods without the proper basis. This is why it used to be said (and I believe still is in the Genbukan and Jinenkan) that until you reach a certain rank (I think about 3rd Dan), you cannot add any variation to the techniques you have been taught. Until then, you haven't really mastered the simple physical skills of the basic teachings, so to apply your own inexperienced approach is hazardous not only to yourself, but to the art as well.
But back to the point. The kamae can be looked upon as being that first time of learning. Get the kamae right, and the correct feeling will follow. But later, the posture becomes irrelevant. It becomes "Get the right feeling, and your kamae will always be correct". So, depneding upon your level and experience, kamae are the most and least important part of your study of Togakure Ryu this year. Use them to get the feeling, but if you have the feeling, don't let formal postures hold you in one place...
This method of teaching is known as "modelling", and is very common in many other areas (NLP probably being amongst the most obvious), and some very sage advise attached to it... such as "Fake it 'til you make it!".
The basic rule (for anyone unfamiliar with this concept, and you shouldn't be, because it is the very basis for the Densho in the first place!) is that as a beginner, you have no experience to refer to and therefore act from. So you go to a source (teacher, Densho, role model etc) who has experience and success in your chosen field, and, not knowing why they do the things they do, but knowing that what they do brings them success, you copy what they do. Eventually, their actions (and by virtue of their actions, their mind-set) become ingrained in you, and your actions begin to generate the same form of success as the source.
Once you have this method of the source as an integrated part of yourself, you can abandon this method of copying, and find your own paths to the success you desire. The problem, of course, comes when people prematurely believe they have reached this point, and make up their own methods without the proper basis. This is why it used to be said (and I believe still is in the Genbukan and Jinenkan) that until you reach a certain rank (I think about 3rd Dan), you cannot add any variation to the techniques you have been taught. Until then, you haven't really mastered the simple physical skills of the basic teachings, so to apply your own inexperienced approach is hazardous not only to yourself, but to the art as well.
But back to the point. The kamae can be looked upon as being that first time of learning. Get the kamae right, and the correct feeling will follow. But later, the posture becomes irrelevant. It becomes "Get the right feeling, and your kamae will always be correct". So, depneding upon your level and experience, kamae are the most and least important part of your study of Togakure Ryu this year. Use them to get the feeling, but if you have the feeling, don't let formal postures hold you in one place...
Dale Seago
Black Belt
Oops -- double post.
Dale Seago
Black Belt
Excellent posts here on kamae, Chris.
Part of their importance for beginners, as I see it, is that use of kamae is where you first begin learning how to "shape the tactical space" between yourself and an opponent, thus "preparing the battlefield" to use a military term.
At an even more fundamental level, for the beginner kamae serves as a mnemonic for knowing where all one's body parts are at any given time and what can be done with them. One of the most common feature I see in newbies' inability to perform a technique is that some body part is out of position for what it needs to be able to do creating exploitable suki (openings), taking too much time, etc.
Part of their importance for beginners, as I see it, is that use of kamae is where you first begin learning how to "shape the tactical space" between yourself and an opponent, thus "preparing the battlefield" to use a military term.
At an even more fundamental level, for the beginner kamae serves as a mnemonic for knowing where all one's body parts are at any given time and what can be done with them. One of the most common feature I see in newbies' inability to perform a technique is that some body part is out of position for what it needs to be able to do creating exploitable suki (openings), taking too much time, etc.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Thanks, Dale.
One of my most common phrases used in the dojo is "Ninjutsu is legs!", meaning that the basis of all success in applying Ninjutsu techniques is dependant upon the correct positioning of your feet (kamae). This is what enables you to reach the appropriate targets/avoid the opponents attack etc. As a result, kamae are usually taught (in our dojo) as distancing concepts, rather than hard-and-fast, set-in-stone, cannot-be-altered physical postures.
The trick, then, becomes getting the students to understand that these sometimes odd, or unusual, methods of standing, and how to apply them. My usual method is to "hide" the kamae within the natural movements of the kata, then highlight them once the student is using them properly. This tends to work quite well, as the vast majority of kamae are designed to be transitioned through, rather than be a simple method of "standing in place and waiting". The only downside is that the students, although they can use the kame, don't necessarily know the names... but that is probably the least important part, provided they can apply the concepts.
One of my most common phrases used in the dojo is "Ninjutsu is legs!", meaning that the basis of all success in applying Ninjutsu techniques is dependant upon the correct positioning of your feet (kamae). This is what enables you to reach the appropriate targets/avoid the opponents attack etc. As a result, kamae are usually taught (in our dojo) as distancing concepts, rather than hard-and-fast, set-in-stone, cannot-be-altered physical postures.
The trick, then, becomes getting the students to understand that these sometimes odd, or unusual, methods of standing, and how to apply them. My usual method is to "hide" the kamae within the natural movements of the kata, then highlight them once the student is using them properly. This tends to work quite well, as the vast majority of kamae are designed to be transitioned through, rather than be a simple method of "standing in place and waiting". The only downside is that the students, although they can use the kame, don't necessarily know the names... but that is probably the least important part, provided they can apply the concepts.
newtothe dark
Purple Belt
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2007
- Messages
- 325
- Reaction score
- 4
Great post Dale and Chris keep it going!!!! Now this is what the forums should be like.:high5:
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
What I'm about to ask you might be considered rude and offensive. I can only give you my word reassuring that that isn't my intention.
But would you be able to understand where I'm coming from if I were to say that this post, and the way in which you express yourself therein, comes across to me as more than a little bit pretentious?
Dale Seago
Black Belt
Perhaps he would, but I don't, so I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate a bit. There are things I could add to what he's said, or that I might express a little differently from the perspective of 24 years' training in the Bujinkan; but so far I haven't seen anything I disagree with. . .and that despite the fact that Chris isn't even in the Bujinkan. What he's said so far pretty much stands on its own merit.
So, if I may ask, just where are you coming from?
(EDIT: Looking at some of your recent posts, I don't get the impression that you're trolling or being antagonistic for its own sake, so I'm simply curious as to what you're getting at.)
It didn't seem pretentious to me, either.
It seemed like Chris was trying to explain how he got the idea of stance being a fluid thing, not a rigid stop, which is used to define the relative positioning of combat.
I agree that Chris posts was not pretentious in my opinion either. I must say that having Chris and Dale here has been very nice!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #39
I agree that Chris posts was not pretentious in my opinion either. I must say that having Chris and Dale here has been very nice!
I am with you two. I didn't think it was pretentious at all. I understood what Chris was saying. It was familiar, similar to Rob's teaching style...
I have enjoyed reading both Dale's and Chris' posts.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Thank you to everyone.
As Dale said, there are always other things that could be added (by myself, or others, based upon relative experience). But my aim was (and is) simply to give another perspective/expression of the aspects of the arts we all study, hopefully to generate new understandings, as this is what I hope to find in these forums myself.
Dale was also quite right in saying that I am no longer a member of the Bujinkan, however, when I first joined my instructor in the early 90's, we were indeed members of the Bujinkan, and my Shodan certificate bears the stamp and seal of Hatsumi Sensei. I opted to remain loyal to my instructor when we split, however, my personal feeling is that I still study the arts of the Bujinkan, as that is where our information came from in the first place. The main difference is in the methodology we employ, not the material we refer to.
Grey Eyed Bandit - pretentious is not the worst I have been accused of, so no offence taken.
As Dale said, there are always other things that could be added (by myself, or others, based upon relative experience). But my aim was (and is) simply to give another perspective/expression of the aspects of the arts we all study, hopefully to generate new understandings, as this is what I hope to find in these forums myself.
Dale was also quite right in saying that I am no longer a member of the Bujinkan, however, when I first joined my instructor in the early 90's, we were indeed members of the Bujinkan, and my Shodan certificate bears the stamp and seal of Hatsumi Sensei. I opted to remain loyal to my instructor when we split, however, my personal feeling is that I still study the arts of the Bujinkan, as that is where our information came from in the first place. The main difference is in the methodology we employ, not the material we refer to.
Grey Eyed Bandit - pretentious is not the worst I have been accused of, so no offence taken.
