12 Angles and Targeting

[Samurai]

I have seen many FMA systems use a pattern of 12 Angles to teach the basic strikes and counters. It seems that every teacher and every style has a different pattern for the 12 Angles.

The one thing that I HAVE noticed is that MOST of the systems that use this pattern will have the same Angles for 1-5.

Angle 1 - 45 degree strike to the upper region
Angle 2 - Left side 45 degree strike to upper region
Angle 3 - Right side 90 degree strike to mid region
Angle 4- Left side 90 degree strike to mid region
Angle 5- straight thrust to mid section

My question to you is....what areas (pressure points, areas, and vital regions) do you target on these angles?

I believe that the targets change all the time depending on what your attacker is doing, but I would like a general idea of what your style teaches.

Thanks
Jeremy :samurai: Bays

 

[arnisador]

In Modern Arnis, the most basic interpretation is that #1 and #2 are to the shoulders and #3 and #4 are to the (level of the) elbows. The #5, done as a straight-in thrust, goes to the lower belly.

See also this thread.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I use only 9 angles of striking.
#1 Forward strike to head-shoulders
#2 Backhand strike to head-shoulders
#3 F. Strike to shoulders-ribs
#4 B.H Strike to shoulders-ribs
#5 F. Strike waist-lower leg
#6 B.H Strike Waist-lower leg
#7 Thrust to Groin -lower stomach
#8 Thrust to Middle Stomach
#9 Thrust to Throat-Eyes
Even Thought we do the hooking type strikes. In Mordern Arnis it's Strike #6,#7#,10,#11. I am more concern with zones. It shouldn't matter what type of strikes they are doing but where the strike is going. If so why don't they included the Punyo strike( Striking with the butt-end of the stick.) into there Zones or angles of attacks.
Bob
:asian:

 

[J-kid]

most shots go for the head.
Reasons being
causes alot of damg
dazes oponent
can cause knock out and other probles.
plus hurts them alot more then a shot to the ribs in most cases.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador

In Modern Arnis, the most basic interpretation is that #1 and #2 are to the shoulders and #3 and #4 are to the (level of the) elbows. The #5, done as a straight-in thrust, goes to the lower belly.

See also this thread.

Arnisador,

No disrespect, just curious, why are one and two to the shoulders and not the temple or the head in general. Is this for safety reasons, and once you understand you can translate it to the head for combat, but for practice and safety it is the shoulders. I know I provided an answer, myself, but trying to learn more.

Thanks

Rich

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

just curious, why are one and two to the shoulders and not the temple or the head in general. Is this for safety reasons, and once you understand you can translate it to the head for combat, but for practice and safety it is the shoulders.

I absolutely believe that once you "get it" you can and and must start translating it to other target areas; a #1 is a forehand 45 degree strike, whether to the head, shoulder, wrist, knee, or ankle! My understanding was that the target areas in the basic numerada of Modern Arnis definitely were chosen with safety in mind, because the Professor was working on getting it into schools in the Philippines, but also with a target area that is comfortable for that type of angle. The #3/#4 is targetted at a height that I find very comfortable, though it also feels natural at the waist level.

I was always told that the #1/#2 were shoulder-to-hip cuts, as with a sword--I don't know if that's a good place to cut with a sword. The neck would be better but is more mobile; maybe this gets around a shield? I don't know. In my mind I picture a typical cleave as targetted around the collarbone, a few inches from the neck.

 

[arnisandyz]

I heard this somewhere, "stick seeks bone, steel seeks flesh" - blunt weapons would target boney areas (collar bone, ribs, elbows, knees, etc) + vital targets that would recieve trauma from impact (temple, etc) and a blade would target fleshy areas, muscle, kneck, behind joints like armpit, inner elbow, wrist + obvious vital targets, (heart, femural, etc.).

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by arnisandyz

I heard this somewhere, "stick seeks bone, steel seeks flesh" - blunt weapons would target boney areas (collar bone, ribs, elbows, knees, etc) + vital targets that would recieve trauma from impact (temple, etc) and a blade would target fleshy areas, muscle, kneck, behind joints like armpit, inner elbow, wrist + obvious vital targets, (heart, femural, etc.).

I am unfamiliar with this quote, however, for what it is worth I think Mr. Duffy has also told us that the preferred targets for a blunt weapon are bony (skull, clavicle, elbow, wrist, knee, hands, feet and maybe also the top of the pelvis) and the preferred targets for a knife or blade are muscle/flesh (forearm, abdomen, hamstring, throat, etc) as well.
:asian:

 

[Danny T]

Hello all,

In Pekiti-Tirsia the "Basic" twelve attacks angles and targets are:

1. Forehand Horizontal to ear
2. Backhand Horizontal to ear
3. Forehand Horizontal to ribs or elbow
4. Backhand Horizontal to ribs or elbow
5. Low line thrust to the groin or prostate gland
6. Backhand Diagonal cavical to opposite foot
7. Forehand Horizontal to knee
8. Backhand thrust to solar plexus
9. Forehand thrust to heart
10. Two handed downward slash from top of head to either foot
11. Two-handed grip thrust driving 45 degrees downward into the bridge of the nose
12. Single hand thrust driving 45 degrees into the bridge of nose with simultaneous palm strike to groin with live hand.

We have 12 sets of 12 movements and targets teaching how to utilize the weapon differently. IE. Reverse grip, Double force, Punyo, Hooking, Double grip (bayonet)
Therefore this is only the basic 12.

Danny T

 

[Angus]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

most shots go for the head.
Reasons being
causes alot of damg
dazes oponent
can cause knock out and other probles.
plus hurts them alot more then a shot to the ribs in most cases.

It's a good thing you don't do any FMA and posted here anyway.

We have 14 striking angles, which are:
(right side)

1: Forehand/inward angled (45 degrees unless ortherwise noted) strike to the head/temple
2: Backhand/outward angled strike to the head/temple
3: Inward flat strike to the elbows/body
4: Outward flat strike to the elbows/body
5: Forehand thrust to the body
6: Inward angled strike to the body
7: Outward angled strike to the body
8: 60 degree inward/upward strike from low to high
9: 60 degree outward/upward strike from low to high
10: Forehand thrust to the throat/head
11: Backhand thrust to the throat/head
12: Straight downward strike to the head (usually from high to low) down the centerline
13: Staight upward strike to the the groin (usually from low to high) up the centerline
14: Flat outward strike to the head.

 

[diggum]

In Doce Pares Eskrima, there's a difference between angles of attack and targets. While there's the "industry-standard" of an Angle 1 strike being basically any forehand strike to the upper quadrant of their body, and Angle 2 being a backhand version, there's a separate field that breaks down the 12 basic attacks and blocks (12 pairs, or doce pares.) These are:
1 Downward strike to top of head (caveman)
2 Backhand strike to temple (shoulder for practice)
3 Forehand strike to temple
4 Backhand uppercut to ribs
5 Forehand uppercut to ribs
6 Backhand strike to hips
7 Forehand strike to hips
8 Backhand strike to knee
9 Forehand strike to knee
10 thrust to opponents right eye/neck
11 thrust to opponents left eye/neck
12 thrust to opponents solar plexus/ jam up.

 

[stump]

most shots go for the head.
Reasons being
causes alot of damg
dazes oponent
can cause knock out and other probles.
plus hurts them alot more then a shot to the ribs in most cases.


I don't think this is actually the case in the FMA. In my limited experience most shots go for the closest target available, and so most initial strikes are to the hand, elbows, knees or whatever is closest to you.

By the way I'm a newbie here, and looking forward to talking FMA to you all

all the best

stump

 

[thekuntawman]

in my style of arnis/eskrima, which i call "fighting eskrima", our numbers 1-6 for hitting ( we have up to 26) are this way,
#1- out to in temple STRAIGHT (no angle)
#2- in to out temple Straight
#1 and 2 can also be hit to the front of the face from the same angle, which i treat as it is a separate strike (24, 25)
#3- out to in shin, thigh or knee (inside only)
#4- in to out shin, thigh or knee (inside only)
we do not bother to hit the outside of the knee where the meat is.
#5- forehead, collar bone, wrist or hand, or shoulder
#6- up wards thrust to the chin or throat
we do not thrust the stick to the body with one hand, except for short sticks. of course this rule is different for blade weapons.

i make sure the fighter understands the difference of hit with a long weapon, hit with short weapon, hit with thin/thick weapon, slash, cut, stab, thrust, and smack. the power is different, just like you hit each target different, and you change your block with the angle of the strike. for example, you hit the wrist differently if he is standing still when you strike, or he is moving, or if you are aiming for the top of the head, the back of the head (if he is turned or bending over), or the collarbones. they are all #5, but the target requires more power than others, and some are easier to hit, some are easier to avoid the hit, and the blockings for each one is different.

 

[LabanB]

Hi Diggum,

What you've described is Cacoy Canetes 12 strikes, rather than THE 12 strikes of Doce Pares! Doce Pares GB uses both the original 12 strikes (see below) and Cacoy's 12 strikes.

1 Diagonal forehand strike to left shoulder
2 Diagonal backhand strike to right shoulder
3 Horizontal forehand strike to left ribs
4 Horizontal backhand strike to right ribs
5 Palm down thrust to stomach
6 Palm up thrust to stomach
7 Diagonal forehand strike to left knee
8 Diagonal backhand strike to right knee
9 Palm down thrust to chest
10 Palm up thrust to chest
11 Downward strike to top of head
12 Backhand strike (Witik) to temple

Bill Lowery

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by LabanB

5 Palm down thrust to stomach
6 Palm up thrust to stomach

Are these like the Modern Arnis #6 and #7, but lower?

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by arnisador

In Modern Arnis, the most basic interpretation is that #1 and #2 are to the shoulders and #3 and #4 are to the (level of the) elbows. The #5, done as a straight-in thrust, goes to the lower belly.

Arnisador,
Numbers 1&2 - to the noggin, to the noggin. Cross reference the tapes and books.
Dan

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by arnisador



I absolutely believe that once you "get it" you can and and must start translating it to other target areas; a #1 is a forehand 45 degree strike, whether to the head, shoulder, wrist, knee, or ankle! My understanding was that the target areas in the basic numerada of Modern Arnis definitely were chosen with safety in mind, because the Professor was working on getting it into schools in the Philippines, but also with a target area that is comfortable for that type of angle. The #3/#4 is targetted at a height that I find very comfortable, though it also feels natural at the waist level.

I was always told that the #1/#2 were shoulder-to-hip cuts, as with a sword--I don't know if that's a good place to cut with a sword. The neck would be better but is more mobile; maybe this gets around a shield? I don't know. In my mind I picture a typical cleave as targetted around the collarbone, a few inches from the neck.

Arnisador,
RP never said that 1&2 were 45 degree angle strikes to anywhere. 1&2 were noggin conks. The 45 degree angle strike is an extrapolation of that idea and actually is the premise behind the reverse figure 8. Check the books and tapes for referencing. As to the sword, he never said one way or another so it may be so or it may be another extrapolation.

Yours,
Dan (again)

 

[arnisador]

I know that I was taught very specific places for the 12 strikes to land, though it was also strongly emphasized that only the angle was important and that the targets given were just so people could practice the Numerada (a term I never heard used in Modern Arnis). The #1 and 2 always were directed to the shoulder in formal practice--though I agree that in practice the head is better if you're thinking stick, or at least the collarbone, while the neck would be good for a sword. The shoulder is safer and also makes the counter easier as it's lower, which can be useful for beginning practice.

Now that you mention it, I'm trying to think if I have a clear memory of the Professor giving me that advice--that the #1 and 2 are shoulder-to-hip--or not. I'm not sure!

 

[arnisandyz]

Arnisador,

You bring up the numerada. I think (guessing) that any numbering system is simply a way of getting everybody on the same page, so you don't have to say "hit me like this", you just say "feed a one". In a structured numerada (by the numbers) it is a way to learn the angles that are coming at you, practice proper zoning, footwork, etc. and counterstriking, also range finding (sometimes you go long range, sometimes middle, sometime you close the gap. In the more advanced stages we try to have the feeder give random strikes and the reciever keep thier stick moving either by the sugidas of PT or thier own method so they have to deal with the angle from wherever the stick is, and sometimes you are out of position (good thing you have that live hand). The angle of attack is stressed more than the specific target areas. Pretty much anything that gets in the path of the angle becomes the target although some targets are better than others. By thinking this way it seems more flowing, your not as concerned with "damn, I missed my target, I'll try again", which almost becomes tunnel vision for some people. You can more easily flow into the next transition attack/defense.

 

[arnisandyz]

Arnisador,

You bring up a point of the numerada. I think (guessing) that any numbering system is simply a way of getting everybody on the same page, so you don't have to say "hit me like this", you just say "feed a one". In the structured numerada (by the numbers) it is a way to learn the angles that are coming at you, practice proper zoning, footwork, etc. and counterstriking, also range finding (sometimes you zone long range, sometimes middle, sometime you close the gap. In the more advanced stages we try to have the reciever keep thier stick moving either by the sugidas of PT or thier own combinations so they have to deal with the angle from wherever the stick is, and sometimes you are out of position (good thing you have that live hand).

Also,

if you think of the target areas from a counterstrike of reciever perspective, your not really thinking, He is trying to hit my temple or he is trying to hit my third rib, etc. You are more concerned with the general direction the strke is flying at you.

Targeting can be good, precision striking, accuracy, timing and all the other good things, but people get to hung up on it. Sometimes its better to just let it fly and let it hit whatever gets in its path.