full time FMA school?

[thekuntawman]

yes, i believe in them, because i been running one for 18 years. only three years ago, i added kung fu. not because i just became a black belter in it, i known kung fu all my life, but first i only taughtit privately and then started doing classes a few years ago because my city doesnt have many good schools (we really only have a couple and rest they are kenpo or franchises). but filipino martial arts is been my full time thing since i open my school in 1992.

i know some teachers who been teaching almost as long as me in community centers and they are very, very good arnis men. its hard business. we have to compete against karate people, kids, soccer, now mma, tae bo, stuff like that. but there is enough people who want to study traditional eskrima full time but what can they do if FMA is only one or two days aweek in a TKD school? or 20 minutes of time in a JKD class? anytime you start a business its going to be scary, but what is more scarier, to lose $5000 in money (that you probably going to make in one or two months with a "real" job) or to face another man who wants to beat you up? so we are brave enough to fight a man in hand to hand combat, but scared to lose a wallet in business doing what we love! hmmph!

if you look in any city you will find at least 1000 students learning street self defense of some kind. krav maga, cqc, something. add eskrima / arnis / kali and now we probably have another 1500 - 2000! how many full time FMA schools do you see? probably none. i am lucky, in my city i have two, me and doce pares. its really a thing, do you love the art enough to make a living from it, its not mcdojo just to pay the bills with your art or even to make a good life from it. and you can do it full time without selling dvds and black belt in 8 sessions.

so if we have 3000 students in a city that want serious martial arts and self defense, and you are the only man in town with a FMA school. lets say your lazy and dont do any kind of advertising, you going to get 1% of them, probably, 30 students. charging 100 bucks a month, thats 3000 dollars. a small shopping center is going to cost you about one thousands a month maybe fiften hundred. no employees, you are only teaching one or two hours a day, thats not bad, 2000 bucks huh?

but work a little harder and get that number up to 50, 100 students, and now we are talking a 90 thousand dollar job, and you dont need college, not even good english, to make this kind of money. you dont need a kids class, you dont need afterschool karate, and you dont even need tae bo.

i was on the modern arnis forum and i see that bob hubbard said the site became just announcement for seminar, and i agree so maybe we can talk about how the FMA can grow as a respectedart. it will grow with respect when we have lots of good talented students. the best way to help our students get better is when we have a place they can train every day if they want. YOU will be a better teacher when you dont have to work another job and you can teach 7 days a week with no worry about how you going to pay bills.

[MJS]

Originally Posted by thekuntawman

yes, i believe in them, because i been running one for 18 years. only three years ago, i added kung fu. not because i just became a black belter in it, i known kung fu all my life, but first i only taughtit privately and then started doing classes a few years ago because my city doesnt have many good schools (we really only have a couple and rest they are kenpo or franchises). but filipino martial arts is been my full time thing since i open my school in 1992.

i know some teachers who been teaching almost as long as me in community centers and they are very, very good arnis men. its hard business. we have to compete against karate people, kids, soccer, now mma, tae bo, stuff like that. but there is enough people who want to study traditional eskrima full time but what can they do if FMA is only one or two days aweek in a TKD school? or 20 minutes of time in a JKD class? anytime you start a business its going to be scary, but what is more scarier, to lose $5000 in money (that you probably going to make in one or two months with a "real" job) or to face another man who wants to beat you up? so we are brave enough to fight a man in hand to hand combat, but scared to lose a wallet in business doing what we love! hmmph!

if you look in any city you will find at least 1000 students learning street self defense of some kind. krav maga, cqc, something. add eskrima / arnis / kali and now we probably have another 1500 - 2000! how many full time FMA schools do you see? probably none. i am lucky, in my city i have two, me and doce pares. its really a thing, do you love the art enough to make a living from it, its not mcdojo just to pay the bills with your art or even to make a good life from it. and you can do it full time without selling dvds and black belt in 8 sessions.

so if we have 3000 students in a city that want serious martial arts and self defense, and you are the only man in town with a FMA school. lets say your lazy and dont do any kind of advertising, you going to get 1% of them, probably, 30 students. charging 100 bucks a month, thats 3000 dollars. a small shopping center is going to cost you about one thousands a month maybe fiften hundred. no employees, you are only teaching one or two hours a day, thats not bad, 2000 bucks huh?

but work a little harder and get that number up to 50, 100 students, and now we are talking a 90 thousand dollar job, and you dont need college, not even good english, to make this kind of money. you dont need a kids class, you dont need afterschool karate, and you dont even need tae bo.

i was on the modern arnis forum and i see that bob hubbard said the site became just announcement for seminar, and i agree so maybe we can talk about how the FMA can grow as a respectedart. it will grow with respect when we have lots of good talented students. the best way to help our students get better is when we have a place they can train every day if they want. YOU will be a better teacher when you dont have to work another job and you can teach 7 days a week with no worry about how you going to pay bills.

I'll start off by asking...the figures that you mention...30 students, times 100 dollars/month, the rent for the building, etc. Are you also including the other expenses that are a part of the business? Things such as lights, phone, etc? I've often thought about opening my own school, but after reviewing the pros and cons of something, I found the cons outweight the pros. But I dont think this is what you intended for this thread to be about.

Anyways....I think it'd be interesting to know just how many fulltime FMA schools are out there. A school where the owner is putting in 40+ hrs/week just teaching.

In my area, there are alot of very good FMA people. I have one within walking distance of my house, who I train with on a regular basis. Many of the others offer FMA as a seperate class, to other things they're teaching. My Kenpo school teaches Arnis once a week, for about an hour and a half a class. One of my other Arnis teachers used to sub-lease space from another school. He had classes 3 times a week, and this included kids classes. Over time, things changed and he ended up stopping his classes, due to the fact that people left for various reasons, and in the long run, it wasn't worth the out of pocket cash he was paying, to pay the rent. He now teaches out of his house.

IMHO, running a school does not necessarily mean that is where you'll find the best quality. Many of the Arnis people that I know and actively train with, are not concerned so much with owning a school, and collecting cash, but instead, giving back to the art. Many simply teach a group in their backyard, garage or basement. Personally, I've found that I get my best workouts from those types of settings. Just last night, I spent 1 1/2 hrs getting a private lesson. IMO, I dont think that you can ever get the type of inst. in a large group setting, as you can with a smaller group.

[thekuntawman]

there is a saying, that if you think you can, probably will. if you think you cant, you wont.

the problem in the FMA is that is treated like a side dish, we are not worthy of our own schools, not enough people wnat to study full time, what if i fail as a business man... and then like the old story of the fox and grapes... who wants a full time school anyway? they are all sell outs!

the truth is, your martial arts will never reach the best it can be if you dont give it enough time. thats the problem with filipino arts now. its a part time think, and the people who teach only studied part time, they really couldnt practice it long enough, and they study it with 5 other arts, so they dont do none of the arts very good. and its not true that the best arts are found garages and back yards. is it better than mickey mouse dojo at the mall? yes. but if you admire men like dan inosanto, remy presas, paul vunak, why do you think they are such good skill? because they do this every day and work very hard at it. if you do not do it full time you have no chance of seeing the kind of skill you can develop if you could train all day. this is the reason our arts have the biggest bellies in the business, our method of teaching, learning and practice is not even enough to keep healthy.

btw, outside of rent, my phone/internet/cable is 100 a month, my electricity is about 30 a month, and insurance is only 5 months a year, around 150. thats it, everything else goes in my pocket. but remember my example is the worst you will do. most schools will have at least 30 - 50 students. most of my money is in private lessons.

my message is that you believe you can do it, you will be successful. the reason you dont see FMA schools is that the seminar industry teaches us that FMA is not worthy of full time attention thats why we learn in seminars instead of schools. this is why we sublease instead of have our own place. but there is a lot of interest in the full time school, but people dont know where to go, if you are the first in your city, you will do very good. but of course you have to have some basics,

1. good skill-no one wants to learn from a lousy fighter
2. right attitude-dont be scared, this is a hard business, but its a good business
3. a good location with a lot of cars and people walking by (i am in a drug area, but all my students come from across town even out of town)
4. good teaching skills-dont hop around, know what you are doing before leading people
5. a good plan-who will you teach, and how will you find the students
6. a good website-i dont like to sell so my website does it for me
7. a good reputation-when you are the man in your city, people will come looking for you

a "full time school" doesnt really teach all day every day. i teach maybe 4 hours in a day if its a busy day. two hours in the morning, and two hours at night. some days i will teach more. but i teach 7 days a week, and my students can come and learn as early as 7 am. and late as 9 p.m. i use to teach some guys at 11 p.m. when i was single.

you can have good fighters in your place and make good money at the same time, and it dont mean you became a karate clown, selling birthday parties to 6 year olds. but you have to THINK you can do it if your going to

[thekuntawman]

oh i want to add something. haveing classmates is sometimes better than practice alone. you have a different size, skilled opponents to spar with and train with. and they help push you when you dont feel like training. we dont want to swallow the idea that only backyard training is good. maybe at the beginner level, but in a place where there is alot of competition, you will learn more by having more opponents.

[MJS]

Am I reading this right...that your elect. at your school is $30/month? Please keep in mind, that not everyone has a desire to have a full time school. That doesnt mean they're any less worthy of their rank or ability. And as far as the backyard training goes....usually those people who do that, are the ones who're most dedicated. All the backyard groups that I've seen and been a part of, had people who weren't worried about contact, weren't worried about getting a lawyer if they got hurt, and they showed up to train and bust their ass...plain and simple. Yet on the flip side, in a school, you have people who're not always there to train and bust their ass, and this has been proven many times. What environment people choose to teach out of is their business. As I said, they're spreading the art, and that IMO, is what matters most. Not who has the biggest and baddest school.

And personally, I think its pretty ballsy of you to say that those that are teaching today, only studied part time. Thats an insult to alot of very skilled people.

You're coming off as if you're the only one in the world with any skill. I beg to differ.

[Xue Sheng]

Originally Posted by thekuntawman

i added kung fu. not because i just became a black belter in it, i known kung fu all my life,

What style of Kung fu?

[Jade Tigress]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

What style of Kung fu?

Thanks for asking that Xue. I'm curious as well.

[thekuntawman]

Originally Posted by MJS

Am I reading this right...that your elect. at your school is $30/month? Please keep in mind, that not everyone has a desire to have a full time school. That doesnt mean they're any less worthy of their rank or ability. And as far as the backyard training goes....usually those people who do that, are the ones who're most dedicated. All the backyard groups that I've seen and been a part of, had people who weren't worried about contact, weren't worried about getting a lawyer if they got hurt, and they showed up to train and bust their ass...plain and simple. Yet on the flip side, in a school, you have people who're not always there to train and bust their ass, and this has been proven many times. What environment people choose to teach out of is their business. As I said, they're spreading the art, and that IMO, is what matters most. Not who has the biggest and baddest school.

And personally, I think its pretty ballsy of you to say that those that are teaching today, only studied part time. Thats an insult to alot of very skilled people.

You're coming off as if you're the only one in the world with any skill. I beg to differ.

yes, my electricity is about $30 most months. not in the winter, when we use heaters, but in the summer i dont use AC or fans to much. the lights are only on at night, i teach at 8 am / 9 am most days then close at 10 or 11, and then i come back at night to teach my night class.

i know that not everybody wants to do the martial arts full time, not everyone wants to train every day, but you can look around at skill level, and tell who trains every day, and who does not. who puts in 1 - 2 hours a session and who does it more than that. its not "ballsy" its truth. some people want to make this there life, some people want to do it on the side. i never said there is something wrong with the ones who teach at home or community centers, i said that the art does not grow if most of our people are part timers.

and you have to understand that martial arts can be a hobby or a lifestyle. some people choose hobby, and other choose it as a lifestyle. the two are not equal, no matter what you desire is, and skill will not be the same. if this offends you, then it shouldnt, because like i said you cannot train on the side and consider yourself equal with the man who does it every day. skill will tell who is who. again this is not "this is better than that" conversation, some people are cut out for it, some are not.

quality of students: in my whole life teaching, we always been the place for training hard. the people who dont like to train this way dont stay. we all chose what kind of training we want. but dont assume that back yard dojo = good skill. actually, most of the back yard fighters i met, are not as good as the guys who come from a gym. they might love the art just as much, they might dedicated, but like i said when you have more opponents, you have a "fighting wisdom" guys who only spar the same 4-5 guys dont have. again, this is not saying the backyard dojo people are inferior, my school is run like a backyard dojo, we just have more people and more classes.

the art doesnt grow with the "biggest baddest schools". but it goes with having more highly skilled people around, and having more students represent the art. we lost something by being the "add on art", and that is skill and respect. so now, check your yellow pages its not easy to find people who do FMA in their own school. and the reason is that most people dont believe the FMA can hold there own school. so we will only find FMA on youtube, backyards and garages, community centers, on DVD and in seminars.

[thekuntawman]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

What style of Kung fu?

jow ga. i been teaching this style since 1986. when i opened my school i only taught arnis and kuntaw, and then jow ga to private lesson students. when i had too many jow ga students that i didnt have room for schedule, i combined everyone into one class, except for the students who didnt want classmates.

[thekuntawman]

Originally Posted by MJS

1. And personally, I think its pretty ballsy of you to say that those that are teaching today, only studied part time. Thats an insult to alot of very skilled people.
2. You're coming off as if you're the only one in the world with any skill. I beg to differ.

1. if somebody is not teaching every day, he is teaching part time. why is this an insult? you cant have it both ways, either you do it full time or you do it part time.
2. i just read my posts, and nothing there says i think im the only guy with skill. the only thing i say about skill is that skill wont reach potential if you dont give yourself enough time to train. some people train for a living, some people do it for a hobby. time training = skill. this is a very simple thing to understand.

but lets go deeper and talk about teachers who teach and learn part time who want to call themselves, masters/grandmasters. some teachers made this art their life, and if they want to call themselves, supreme grand burrito masters, thats something they can do if the have the skill to back it up. but some others, do not, they learn a few times a year at a seminar, teach a few guys and collect and give out certificates, then add up the years they put in (20, 30 years) and want to consider himself equal to the masters who made it their life. next thing youknow they are in the magazines and on blogs saying, no body recognize me because i'm not filipino/chinese/asian!

no, no body recognizes you because you're not as good as the guy who taught for a career. see, we make our paths and then we live with the results of the path. some people want their cake and eat it too. no money in FMAs, so i will do it as a hobby. 30 years later, he thinks he is equal with a canyete, or cabales, or latosa. i mean, even the shopping center sensei been doing his art full time for 20 years! i forget the point i was going to make, but anyway...

[MJS]

Originally Posted by thekuntawman

yes, my electricity is about $30 most months. not in the winter, when we use heaters, but in the summer i dont use AC or fans to much. the lights are only on at night, i teach at 8 am / 9 am most days then close at 10 or 11, and then i come back at night to teach my night class.

i know that not everybody wants to do the martial arts full time, not everyone wants to train every day, but you can look around at skill level, and tell who trains every day, and who does not. who puts in 1 - 2 hours a session and who does it more than that. its not "ballsy" its truth. some people want to make this there life, some people want to do it on the side. i never said there is something wrong with the ones who teach at home or community centers, i said that the art does not grow if most of our people are part timers.

and you have to understand that martial arts can be a hobby or a lifestyle. some people choose hobby, and other choose it as a lifestyle. the two are not equal, no matter what you desire is, and skill will not be the same. if this offends you, then it shouldnt, because like i said you cannot train on the side and consider yourself equal with the man who does it every day. skill will tell who is who. again this is not "this is better than that" conversation, some people are cut out for it, some are not.

quality of students: in my whole life teaching, we always been the place for training hard. the people who dont like to train this way dont stay. we all chose what kind of training we want. but dont assume that back yard dojo = good skill. actually, most of the back yard fighters i met, are not as good as the guys who come from a gym. they might love the art just as much, they might dedicated, but like i said when you have more opponents, you have a "fighting wisdom" guys who only spar the same 4-5 guys dont have. again, this is not saying the backyard dojo people are inferior, my school is run like a backyard dojo, we just have more people and more classes.

the art doesnt grow with the "biggest baddest schools". but it goes with having more highly skilled people around, and having more students represent the art. we lost something by being the "add on art", and that is skill and respect. so now, check your yellow pages its not easy to find people who do FMA in their own school. and the reason is that most people dont believe the FMA can hold there own school. so we will only find FMA on youtube, backyards and garages, community centers, on DVD and in seminars.

LOL, I must say that your assumptions of things make me laugh. For someone who has no idea as to how people train, how long they've trained, with who they've trained, you assume alot, without knowing many of these people. So, because I choose to work a 40hr a week job, sometimes more, I'm not good as what I do? I beg to differ. Every class that I take, every test that I've taken, I've put in 110%, and if you choose to not believe that, I could really give a **** less.

The people that I train with, have spent alot of time with Remy Presas, a hell of alot more time than others claim. Between my Kenpo and Arnis, I do a little every day. Due to my work schedule, its hard for me to train at night, but when I do have free time, I'm training.

As yes, it is ballsy, because again, you assume that you know how everyone trains, you assume that you know everyones lifestyle, when in reality you do not. Someone who does this as a hobby, doesnt take the training serious. I've been teaching for quite a few years, and I've seen the differences in the two groups...those that train for something to do after work and those that bust their ass on the mat.

Just because you dont see an FMA school on every block, like you'd see a mcdojo TKD school, again, does not mean the quality and dedication is not there.

[MJS]

Originally Posted by thekuntawman

[/list]

1. if somebody is not teaching every day, he is teaching part time. why is this an insult? you cant have it both ways, either you do it full time or you do it part time.
2. i just read my posts, and nothing there says i think im the only guy with skill. the only thing i say about skill is that skill wont reach potential if you dont give yourself enough time to train. some people train for a living, some people do it for a hobby. time training = skill. this is a very simple thing to understand.

1) And you fault people for this? Why? Because they choose to not run a FT martial arts school? Yes, it is an insult, because as I said, there're many dedicated people that have 40+hr a week jobs, that still give back and train people in the FMAs.

2) Read again. Its your cocky, arrogant attitude, and if you can't see it, I dont know what to tell you. You're faulting those that do not run a FT FMA school. Who the **** are you to judge someones skill on that? So yes, you are coming off as the best because you teach. How the **** do you know what those other people are doing? Are you some mindreader or something?

but lets go deeper and talk about teachers who teach and learn part time who want to call themselves, masters/grandmasters. some teachers made this art their life, and if they want to call themselves, supreme grand burrito masters, thats something they can do if the have the skill to back it up. but some others, do not, they learn a few times a year at a seminar, teach a few guys and collect and give out certificates, then add up the years they put in (20, 30 years) and want to consider himself equal to the masters who made it their life. next thing youknow they are in the magazines and on blogs saying, no body recognize me because i'm not filipino/chinese/asian!

Sure, there're people out there that fluff their resume and give themselves titles. Everyone that I am affiliated with, has earned their titles.

no, no body recognizes you because you're not as good as the guy who taught for a career. see, we make our paths and then we live with the results of the path. some people want their cake and eat it too. no money in FMAs, so i will do it as a hobby. 30 years later, he thinks he is equal with a canyete, or cabales, or latosa. i mean, even the shopping center sensei been doing his art full time for 20 years! i forget the point i was going to make, but anyway...

Dude, your views are so ****ed up right now, its not even funny! Not everyone has the desire or ability to do what those people have done. My own teachers admit that they're nowhere near the level as Remy, but every time they train, every time they pick up the sticks and do something, they're getting that much better. Again, these are people who spent alot of time with the man. My teacher has been doing the FMAs for 27yrs. and is still going.

You can think what you want, but until you've seen everyone in the FMA world, until you've laid hands with all of them, your words are just opinions....ones that I am not placing much worth in.

Good luck to you in your training.

[jks9199]

You're making some pretty big assumptions about people and their training. I train in some fashion most every day; in the past, I typically trained for several hours every day, around my work schedule. I don't teach as a profession, for lots of reasons.

But you've also made some big assumptions about the market. I doubt you'd find a storefront space in my area for only $1000 a month -- and I doubt you'd get away with electricity/utility costs of only $30. And you never mentioned something very important -- especially if you're teaching full time. INSURANCE. If you don't have proper insurance, and anything happens that one of your students gets hurt -- you'll be pretty sorry as you hand your stuff over to someone else. Then there are business licensing fees, taxes, and all those other pesky details. They'll nip into that money you're making pretty fast... or the legal fees for not dealing with them will.

[chris arena]

I think that we are getting WAY TOO IN DEPTH in regards to the can-do or can't do stuff here. KuntaoMan has the right idea and I believe that he is on the right track. Forget about the small stuff stuff and look at the larger picture! In fact, go to the Modern Arnis portion of the forum and take a real good look at what Datu Dieter posted as a Modern Arnis Trailer just the other day. In fact look at what is going on in europe in regards to the FMA. Look at the seminars with a WHOLE BUNCH of entusiastic students.

It is time for FMA to stand on it's own. We have a unique method of training that is efficient, challenging and fun to learn. Look at FMA as street level MMA for the average person. We have boxing, grappling, weapons handling all in one package. And it has been proven on the street. We don't really need the tough guys, we only need the average person who like most of us has no interest in training for competition. The average person wants to be taught how to defend himself for the street and to have one or two nights where he can get off his butt and have a bit of fun and get away from all the B.S. that we all need to do at work and to raise a family. Solid Martial arts training can go a long way from the tough guy stuff and teach us very important life lessons. Or at least let us escape the daily grind, giving us a fresh start. I don't know of how many times I have gone to class worring about some work related, financial, spousal something or another b.s. problem. Only to miraculasely be released from these draining problems just by banging those sticks!!

As I mentioned in Datu Dieter's post, "In the states we have good practitioners, but the europeans know how to market this art!" If we stop bieng so danged pragmatic, and just showed a hint of enthusiasm, then maybe we can raise ourselves higher than we are at present.

As far as a business. I have my own as an independent Insurance Damage Investigator. I don't need another. I study and teach for fun and have been doing so for years. But I have no problem in respecting anyone who wants to step out and start a school. I am a firm believe in one true fact:

"If you think you are tough. Try starting and running your own buseness!"

It's easy to talk about, but unless you have tried, It's not as easy as it looks. I bet the KuntoaMan can add a bit to this fact. Yes, the money is there, but the path is long and hard. We need more people thinking like he does...

Chris A

[jks9199]

I have no problem with someone having a school, or having it be their primary income. It doesn't matter what style they train in (with a few exceptions). I just took exception to the perceived attitude in Kuntaoman's post that you're not serious if you don't run a school.

There are tons of reasons not to --- and plenty to run a school, too. It's a personal decision. But either choice doesn't give you a right to look down your nose at someone who made the other choice. And it's not as simple as he makes it sound... at least if you're going to do it right here in the US.