SKK Combos and Various Attacks

[MJS]

In another thread on the half moon or "C" step, the subject of changing the combos to suit an attack other than a punch came up. Another member thought that it would make for a good thread, so here it is!

We can break down each combo and discuss other attacks and how the combo could be used.

Let the games begin!

[14 Kempo]

Originally Posted by MJS

In another thread on the half moon or "C" step, the subject of changing the combos to suit an attack other than a punch came up. Another member thought that it would make for a good thread, so here it is!

We can break down each combo and discuss other attacks and how the combo could be used.

Let the games begin!

I'd like some clarification first, that being are we "changing" the combination to suit the attack, or modifying movement, strikes and target areas without changing the basic concepts and theories of the original combination?

I believe that each combination has its own set of concepts. As a very basic example, combination 6 teaches us that we can beat a punch with a linear kick (the leg is longer than the arm) as long as we react in a timely manner. With that being said, with somebody attacking from the rear, a back kick to stop his attack is a modified combo 6 without changing the basic concept of the kick beating the punch. A sidekick to an attacker encraoching from that direction, same concept. Combination 7, too late to beat the punch, step off the line and deliver a linear kick ... front, side or back kick, doesn't matter, same concept. You get the idea.

[JTKenpo]

I agree with the concept but feel that the variables widen too much at first glance. Maybe if we start with varying the attack and what has to change to make the combo work as close to its original form and then if we get going on an indepth of a particular combo reintroduce the concept as you discuss. To make a long story short I think interpretation may get in the way in that context.

[JTKenpo]

For example lets start at the beginning, well sort of.

#1 -
RIGHT FOOT STEPS BACK AND LEFT FOOT DRAWS INTO CAT WITH A LEFT MONKEY BLOCK. LEFT FOOT STEPS UP TO HALF MOON STANCE AND WRAP ATTACKERS RIGHT ARM WITH YOUR LEFT. EXECUTE RIGHT RAKING TIGERS CLAW TO LEFT SIDE OF FACE AND RIGHT CRANE STRIKE TO RIGHT SIDE OF FACE (REVERSING DIRECTION). EXECUTE OSOTO GARI TAKEDOWN. FINISH WITH RIGHT VERTICAL PUNCH TO SOLOR PLEXUS AND RIGHT KNIFE HAND TO THROAT. CROSS AND COVER.

If we change the punch to a right push does anything change? No, actually it becomes a more viable defense against this attack because I am trying to grab the wrist after a parry.

If we change the attack to a roundhouse punch now we have to do some changing. We must stop the momentum of the arm, I would suggest stepping into the attack with the left and execute a left extended outward block or knife hand block. Then we can finish the combo as described.

[MJS]

Originally Posted by JTKenpo

For example lets start at the beginning, well sort of.

#1 -
RIGHT FOOT STEPS BACK AND LEFT FOOT DRAWS INTO CAT WITH A LEFT MONKEY BLOCK. LEFT FOOT STEPS UP TO HALF MOON STANCE AND WRAP ATTACKERS RIGHT ARM WITH YOUR LEFT. EXECUTE RIGHT RAKING TIGERS CLAW TO LEFT SIDE OF FACE AND RIGHT CRANE STRIKE TO RIGHT SIDE OF FACE (REVERSING DIRECTION). EXECUTE OSOTO GARI TAKEDOWN. FINISH WITH RIGHT VERTICAL PUNCH TO SOLOR PLEXUS AND RIGHT KNIFE HAND TO THROAT. CROSS AND COVER.

If we change the punch to a right push does anything change? No, actually it becomes a more viable defense against this attack because I am trying to grab the wrist after a parry.

If we change the attack to a roundhouse punch now we have to do some changing. We must stop the momentum of the arm, I would suggest stepping into the attack with the left and execute a left extended outward block or knife hand block. Then we can finish the combo as described.

Looks like we're on the same page with this.

[Hand Sword]

Do you mean to decide what type of attck each combo was designed for? I know they are all taught as punch defenses, but that's not the design for all.

For example # 1-- With the quick draw back into a cat stance and the monkey hand block could be to avoid and catch an incoming kick, or thrusting weapon.

The combos with overhead blocks are for overhead attcks etc..

Also, my point with changing the idea of half mooning applies too. Take combo 3, no half mooning in with a punch allows that groin shot off of the slip. Doing it as taught, not a good angle for it. Also. w/o it, after the jaw shot, they are moving away not allowing the follow up takedown which came after the 1/2 mooning introduction.

[MJS]

Originally Posted by 14 Kempo

I'd like some clarification first, that being are we "changing" the combination to suit the attack, or modifying movement, strikes and target areas without changing the basic concepts and theories of the original combination?

I believe that each combination has its own set of concepts. As a very basic example, combination 6 teaches us that we can beat a punch with a linear kick (the leg is longer than the arm) as long as we react in a timely manner. With that being said, with somebody attacking from the rear, a back kick to stop his attack is a modified combo 6 without changing the basic concept of the kick beating the punch. A sidekick to an attacker encraoching from that direction, same concept. Combination 7, too late to beat the punch, step off the line and deliver a linear kick ... front, side or back kick, doesn't matter, same concept. You get the idea.

I was under the impression from some posts that I saw in that other thread, that the combos could be used to deal with attacks other than punches. So, I took it as doing our best to keep with the same movements, although some alterations may be necessary to adapt to something other than a punch.

[JTKenpo]

Originally Posted by MJS

In another thread on the half moon or "C" step, the subject of changing the combos to suit an attack other than a punch came up. Another member thought that it would make for a good thread, so here it is!

We can break down each combo and discuss other attacks and how the combo could be used.

Let the games begin!

In my opinion #2 is probably the most versatile combo in the system which fits into this discussion. This defensive manuever can be used with little or no adjustment off a right or left straight punch (step through or not), right hook, right side club, right high roundhouse kick, right or left one hand push, two hand push, left lapel grab, left lapel grab with right hook, right lapel grab and that is without adding or making major adjustments.

Try a few and tell me what you think or if you have others I would love to hear them. It is also a great manuever to graft other techniques with.

[DavidCC]

Our version of #2 is similar. I would type it out, but it just so happens that I have taken our version of #2 and changed it to use the indices and alignment mechanisms that Doc Chapel taught me. So for your reading pleasure I now present, my own unique take on SKK Combo #2.

before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.

Originally Posted by David C's version of SKK #2

Attack - right roundhouse punch or haymaker
step forward with right foot to 12 with right inward block with PAM right foot (stomp) as you pivot into horse stance facing 1030, left hand BAM (slap) to right shoulder.
Right hand travels straight back to right outward block (arm in line with shoulder, elbow at shoulder height) as left hand pushes attackers right hand outward. (right hand positioned to block possible left punch).
Right hammer fist to temple with left BAM to right shoulder, left hand pulls to left elbow position as right hand continues travel to rebound off your own left shoulder.
Simultaneously strike right hand back fist to nose with left punch to solar plexus, then roll right arm down to hammer groin while left palm heel positions next to right shoulder (positioned to deflect head butt or falling attacker), shuffling forward if necessary as attacker stumbles back.
Strike to chin or neck with upward right elbow as attacker bends over from the groin strike.
Cross out, he's done.

I left out some of the details becasue if you don't have the SL-4 vocab it won't matter anyway

I think this could be useful for outside left although the targets have to change for outside left since this one attacks targets moving down and up the center line, and for outside left those targets are not available.

[JTKenpo]

"I think this could be useful for outside left although the targets have to change for outside left since this one attacks targets moving down and up the center line, and for outside left those targets are not available." DavidCC

Thats the fun of this thread and looking at the combos against different attacks. Our natural weapons stay the same but in this case instead of targeting their center line now we are looking at the floating ribs and temple.

[JTKenpo]

[quote=DavidCC;967890]
before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
quote]


This is an interesting variation on the attack, the clinch. Try converting the inward block to a hammer to left floating ribs and using the back punch as a wedge between you and the attacker then use the space created by the wedge to chamber and strike with the side elbow to the face. This is the way I would answer the clinch attack using #2 anyway.

[DavidCC]

[quote=JTKenpo;975090]

Originally Posted by DavidCC

before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
quote]


This is an interesting variation on the attack, the clinch. Try converting the inward block to a hammer to left floating ribs and using the back punch as a wedge between you and the attacker then use the space created by the wedge to chamber and strike with the side elbow to the face. This is the way I would answer the clinch attack using #2 anyway.

Interesting changes, I'll have to think about those. but I think that these changes assume that I ahve read the attack as a clinch and not a punch. The dilemma I am having is, after the initial block of the initial punch (conforming to the same "ideal" attack so far), the attacker collapses into you...

Wait did you say to step forward with right foot, and hammer fist to his left ribs with my right as he clinches me? Have you worked with that or did you just make that up LOL??? OK I said I would try it so I will

[JTKenpo]

[quote=DavidCC;975136]

Originally Posted by JTKenpo

Interesting changes, I'll have to think about those. but I think that these changes assume that I ahve read the attack as a clinch and not a punch. The dilemma I am having is, after the initial block of the initial punch (conforming to the same "ideal" attack so far), the attacker collapses into you...

Wait did you say to step forward with right foot, and hammer fist to his left ribs with my right as he clinches me? Have you worked with that or did you just make that up LOL??? OK I said I would try it so I will

No I didn't say step, I thought you meant that you are already in an attackers clench and wanted to use defensive manuevers. As for the attacker running into you after the initial block let them run into the back punch or the side elbow.

[RevIV]

[quote=JTKenpo;975090][quote=DavidCC;967890]
before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
quote]

Sorry David if i am misinterpreting your statement. When you talk about the issue of the attacker trying to clinch, is it before i get my attack off or after I have already hit the person? If the clincher gets me before i hit him, then I am to slow and i need to change my style quickly because he's going to grab me. If you are talking about the clinch of a person buckling forward after a hit, then you have a few options. Be aware of a persons body movements when you hit them. When you hit them low you know they are going to buckle so be ready for follow up. I just did a quick run through of combos 1-21 in my head and I could see few red flags that would be considered "a problem with many of our combos." Could you elaborate on this a little, thanks.
Jesse

[marlon]

[quote=JTKenpo;975090]

Originally Posted by DavidCC

before I do so I want to say that, using the "original version", and our standard version, and even my own version, I still haven't been able to address the issue of hwo to deal with an attacker who is trying to clinch or just simply crashes his upper body into mine. However I think this is a problem with many of our combos.
quote]


This is an interesting variation on the attack, the clinch. Try converting the inward block to a hammer to left floating ribs and using the back punch as a wedge between you and the attacker then use the space created by the wedge to chamber and strike with the side elbow to the face. This is the way I would answer the clinch attack using #2 anyway.

or lift your arm for a rising elbow to the head...

marlon