McDojo?

[bushidomartialarts]

so i've been reading for a little while and need to stick my big, fat head in a hornet's nest over this mcdojo thing.

i've read the term and figure it means any or all of the following:

1. a school that uses professional sales techniques

2. a school that overcharges

3. a school run by people who are incompetent

4. a school run by people with no love for the art

5. a school run by people somebody dislikes

6. a school teaching a style somebody disapproves of

7. a school run by somebody with politics someone else dislikes

8. a school located in a fancy mall or suburb

9. a school that teaches primarily children.

etc.

there are a lot of really bad schools out there. there are also a lot of really good schools out there.

i'm just curious: how many people consider professional business practices a sign that a school is of poor quality? i get the idea it's a significant minority, if not a majority? and for those who do, why?

not trying to pick a fight here. just looking to start a conversation.

[Jonathan Randall]

Originally Posted by bushidomartialarts

i'm just curious: how many people consider professional business practices a sign that a school is of poor quality? i get the idea it's a significant minority, if not a majority? and for those who do, why?

I certainly don't consider professional business practices to be the sign of a McDojo, and I am not sure that too many others do either. Personally, I would like to see as many MA people as possible make a good living doing what they love - practicing and teaching the martial arts. The problem is that, in certain chains and schools (not to be mentioned), profit considerations override professional teaching practices.

[still learning]

Hello, This is a general rule here? If the business has been around for a long time? ...then it must be doing something successful.

Repeat business is a good sign. Just because it looks like and is like a Mcdojo? You can still get excellent training.

Most martial arts schools that are very successfully is because of the Instructors skills as a person and business sense.

Your instincts will let you know plus common sense, in searching for the right school for you. Some things to do: Ask around from others who train, visit and sit in the class. Watch there program, may have to go several times, Always introduce yourself and talk with the Sensi's. Visit as many schools that is around you.

For myself: Having training close to home is important ( One does not want to spend to much time traveling/driving time).

The teacher princples' in line with mines. His personality is important to me, and his skills in teaching and knowledge too! Must be a good role model to follow. (Practices what he preaches.)

Everyone of us will have his own opinions on what is best for you and what you want out of the training/martial art classes.

As you get older? ....hopefully smarter? ......Aloha

[Fluffy]

I just don't like the label "McDojo". I've been training for a number of years, and I've seen some great schools and some just plain bad schools. Just to pick on your list a bit....

What do you conceder overcharging?

I use professional sales techniques to get my kid to go to bed - does that make me a McDad?

"A school run by people who are incompetent" That I would agree with, but what is incompetent to you? It may be different to someone who has no martial art experience.

No love for the art? Then why teach? There are much easier ways to get rich.

"A school teaching a style somebody disapproves of" I teach TKD - at one time I taught ATA TKD - and I've been slammed for it, yet I still have my kids respect - and I'm still in business.

I teach primarily kids, some adults, but I have a few 5 y/o's. Do they not deserve a martial education?

IMNSHO you just can't label a club/school generically, so there is no place for that "McDojo" label.

Just good schools - average schools - and bad schools.

I have a rule in my club for my students when speaking about other schools/clubs or my competition, and I wish others would fallow:

"Do not talk down other schools, build up your own".

[thetruth]

Originally Posted by bushidomartialarts

so i've been reading for a little while and need to stick my big, fat head in a hornet's nest over this mcdojo thing.

i've read the term and figure it means any or all of the following:

1. a school that uses professional sales techniques

2. a school that overcharges

3. a school run by people who are incompetent

4. a school run by people with no love for the art

5. a school run by people somebody dislikes

6. a school teaching a style somebody disapproves of

7. a school run by somebody with politics someone else dislikes

8. a school located in a fancy mall or suburb

9. a school that teaches primarily children.

etc.

there are a lot of really bad schools out there. there are also a lot of really good schools out there.

i'm just curious: how many people consider professional business practices a sign that a school is of poor quality? i get the idea it's a significant minority, if not a majority? and for those who do, why?

not trying to pick a fight here. just looking to start a conversation.

I think a McDojo is a very subjective term. But a big example of a large style (allegedly 30000+ members world wide) is Go Kan Ryu. I don't know if it is in the US or not but it is big in Australia and the UK. Anyway they basically do door knock selling. Charge a fair bit, concentrate on point sparring A LOT and don't have a great lineage to any past styles or masters.

I don't think many, if any of the points you made necessarily mean a school is a McDojo. They can but there aren't any certainties.

Cheers
Sam

[Grenadier]

Originally Posted by bushidomartialarts

so i've been reading for a little while and need to stick my big, fat head in a hornet's nest over this mcdojo thing.

I wouldn't go so far as to say you've hit a hornets' nest, but you will run into many disagreements.

1. a school that uses professional sales techniques

I disagree here. If you want your school to succeed, you must have a good sense of business, and this requires a good bit of professionalism, especially when selling your services. While it is true, that we would all like to say that our primary reasons for the school are because we want to teach, one must always keep in mind, that it's also still a business.

If you can't sell things well (and usually having a professional sales attitude helps), then your dojo will be stagnant at best, and it will die a slow death.

2. a school that overcharges

I actually agree somewhat, but what if the instruction is superb? If the instruction is that good, then I'd certainly be willing to pay a higher price, even if the dojo is located in a less than savory area, might be run down a bit, etc.

Also, supply and demand will dictate what someone can charge. While I frown upon someone charging exorbitant fees for a school, at the same time, the owner of such a school had either the foresight or the luck, to put his school there, and I simply salute him for the choice / circumstance.

3. a school run by people who are incompetent

This is quite important. The apples usually don't fall too far from the tree, and the instructors that a chief instructor has in his "stable" are a direct reflection of him. Now, there will be exceptions on an occasional basis, such as an inexperienced instructor being thrown into the fire a bit, but such things usually improve over time.

4. a school run by people with no love for the art

I agree a good bit. People with no real love for the art usually don't stick around to earn a yudansha ranking.

5. a school run by people somebody dislikes

Dislike in what way? Good instructors come in all shapes and sizes, both physically and mentally. I'm sure that some of my beginning students don't particularly like me because I push them to go beyond what they thought their limits were (within reason, of course), and I know that a couple of my old teachers were hardasses about pushing people as well, yet I never considered any of those schools in the "McDojo" category.

6. a school teaching a style somebody disapproves of

Going with the popular choice isn't necessarily the right choice. There are many great teachers (and even a few founders) who met open hostility when they started their schools, and over a period of time, the systems have flourished.

7. a school run by somebody with politics someone else dislikes

I agree. Unless a dojo is catered towards a particular political or religious faction, politics should be kept out of the dojo. While I see no harm at all in having a quick prayer, forcing beliefs (be it religious or political) down someone's throat is inappropriate.

8. a school located in a fancy mall or suburb

Location is irrelevant. There are excellent schools in nice neighborhoods, and there are terrible schools in the ghetto as well. Bias from external appearances should not be a factor.

9. a school that teaches primarily children.

Again, I disagree here. Sometimes, you simply might not have that many adults interested in the school. Other times, you get your starts by holding classes at various elementary or junior high schools, and then transfer your clientele over. Besides, these children are going to grow up, and if you're still around, and if they stick with it, they're going to be adults in your system.

i'm just curious: how many people consider professional business practices a sign that a school is of poor quality? i get the idea it's a significant minority, if not a majority? and for those who do, why?

Professional business practices do not indicate anything about a school's quality. They do, however, help increase the chances that a school will survive, assuming that they are a commercial school where someone has to earn a living to put food on the table. Remember, even though we would love to teach a martial arts school and not have to worry about the business aspect, it's still a business. Rent, insurance, supplies, salaries, licenses, utilities, etc., all cost money, and unless you have a financial backer (extremely, extremely rare) who takes care of all of your needs, you're going to have to remember that it's still a business as well.

[Eternal Beginner]

I've come to the realisation a mcdojo (to most people) is simply a dojo that uses practices that they themselves disapprove of - very subjective and not at all a universal definition.

Originally Posted by bushidomartialarts

1. a school that uses professional sales techniques

Frankly, I wish more schools would be a little more professional in sales techniques and other areas. IF the school is doing well the instructors can worry about teaching, not recruiting.

2. a school that overcharges

What is overcharging? I know schools that pride themselves on being cheaper but if you look at what they charge per class as opposed to per month you may be horrified to find you are actually paying more. Which is cheaper? The gym that charges $140/mth for a family of three or more in a rented space but only provides two classes a week...or the gym that is charging $200/mth for a family of three (or more) in a dedicated facility with showers,etc. and each member can take up to 12 classes a week and cross-train between styles?

3. a school run by people who are incompetent

Again, some people choose incompetence. It is sad, but the quality of instruction isn't important but the fact that they get lots of attention or have fun. Who says they aren't getting their money's worth? They may not be getting good MA, but they are getting what they want. Once you turn MA into a commodity you bring in a lot of other factors besides good MA.

4. a school run by people with no love for the art

I would have to say this is a big warning sign. If they are just using an established name of another art to hook students in to teach their own pet moves they are extremely dishonest and should be avoided like the plague.

5. a school run by people somebody dislikes

This is where I usually find the screams of MCDOJO! Just because you dislike someone or their teaching methods doesn't mean they are mcdojo, just means you shouldn't study with them.

6. a school teaching a style somebody disapproves of

This is a biggie as well. If you are an RBSD person you will cry mcdojo on anyone who isn't teaching survival for the mean streets. Again, subjective and inappropriate. Sad thing is, most people will decry other styles before they actually know anything about them. They buy into stereotypes that they desperately want to believe in because it makes them feel superior. All ego.

7. a school run by somebody with politics someone else dislikes


8. a school located in a fancy mall or suburb

9. a school that teaches primarily children.

etc.

I think we just have to be secure in what we study and not worry about all those people out there whose fragile egos depend on running others down because not everyone has had the epiphany that they are the ultimate and everyone should do things their way. It is time for many martial artists to grow up and take care of their own houses.

Frankly, when it comes to MA, I don't think we are our brothers keepers and people should be allowed to study whatever they choose in peace. If you want to train full contact every class and continually wander through life with broken bones, concussions and contusions...your choice. If you want to train with same three people in your basement drilling techniques out of the back of comic books...your choice. If you want to become world class at point sparring...your choice.

I'm not talking about business frauds and blatantly dishonest characters, I'm talking about the people who are labelled mcdojo because they may not be the most fit, the strictest, training for competition, or just the "having fun" people who train. Leave them alone, their choice.

[SFC JeffJ]

Lots of good points made here. Any school that can teach good quality martial arts and be in the black deserves kudos as far as I'm concerned. My opinion of a school that uses professional sales techniques is that as long as there is quality there, that it just means the owner knows more than just MA. As far as my use of the term McDojo, I try to reserve it's use for schools that I personally know that pretty much just sell rank. There are a few in my area like that, but there are also several wonderful schools of various styles. Just depends on what you want out of the Martial Arts.

Jeff

[Kacey]

My primary consideration for a facility to be a McDojo is when profit is put above quality instruction. For example, there is a chain here in Denver which requires students to sign a contract which says, effectively, "I, the undersigned, agree to pay $/month for x months. If I show up x times during these months, I will attain z rank." Quality of the student's performance is irrelevant - only money paid and number of classes attended determine one's readiness for the next rank.

I have a student who started in one of this chains facilities. He is developmentally delayed and has cerebral palsy... and in 2 years there, he earned a green belt (5th gup). He's been my student for 6 years, and, in that time, has worked his way up (in the same Ch'ang H'on pattern set) to halfway between 8th gup and 7th gup (because of his particular needs, he tests for partial ranks, so he can see himself making progress). He learned nothing in that facility - he paid his money, served his time, and was awarded rank up to green belt. He is also the only person I know who this facility ever refused to renew a contract for, which is how he came to my class.

I've also known quite a few students (especially children) who joined classes at a branch of this chain, who lost interest after weeks or months, who were still paying the class fee until the completion of the contract, because there is no quit-clause in the contract.

The person who owns this chain attempted to hire me once, about 15 years ago, at a hiring fair for teachers. For reasons which he claimed were unclear to him, teaching this way failed to bring him students who could be made instructors and open new facilities - so he decided to hire teachers (who already knew how to teach - so just needed to be taught one of his two primary MAs), pay them something like $6.50/hour (it was in 1994) for 30 hours/week for a summer (so, 12-13 weeks), test them at the end of that time, assign them a rank based on what they had learned (his expectations were anything from green to black belt), and set them up in a franchise in which they would receive salary plus a commission based on the number of contracts signed. As far as I know, no one took him up on it.

In my opinion, this person's business is a McDojo - because the quality of the student is irrelevant to the students' attained rank, and because generating funds (which requires quantity) is more important than providing quality instruction.

I'll stick with teaching TKD in a Y, where anyone who can't afford the class is provided with a scholarship, and fees are per session, with no long-term committment - which means I have to provide quality instruction to keep students - because that's what I want to do. Given that my students bring their friends to class and try to get them to join, I think I'm on the right track. If I make money... well, so much the better! But as long as I don't lose money, I'm pretty happy.

[Mcura]

Kacey makes an excellent point. The school I train in is a non-profit organization, mainly because the instructors already have day jobs and merely want to teach for the love of teaching. By being labled a "non-profit", they've effectively removed themselves from the standard of operating a business. However, to pay the rent on the facilities and maintain equipment, it's better to have as many people paying club dues as possible. It's our house, too.

[stickarts]

In my view, there is nothing wrong with using professional sales practices.
The bottom line is whether quality martial arts is being taught in the best interest of the students and do the students feel that the value of what they are receiving is worth the money that they are paying?
We have some students that are hard core into the self defense training while we also have other students that merely want to learn some of the tradition, get some physical activity, and make some friends.
It is important to be honest abut what you are delivering and to provide a quality service.

Simply addressing the matter of price.

If I were being trained by a first degree blackbelt with say 5 years of mat time then I would have no problem with the training. I could learn a ton from someone with that experience. However:

The training I would receive from say a 5th or 6th degree blackbelt with 30 years of mat time would be worth a higher price. It remains consistant in other industries as well.

If I were to hire a roofer to do my roof and he was a relatively new guy I would probably get a lower price. Of course I would also have the issues of inexperience, possible mistakes etc. Now if I were to hire a Master Roofer with 30 years proven experience then the price goes way way up.

I see nothing wrong with those who have dedicated there lives to training and teaching martial arts to charge more and make a great living.

I guess my version of a mcdojo (based on price alone) would be the dojo that has the first degree black with 5 years charging the same or more as the guy with 30 years.

[beau_safken]

McDojo:

Ahh the Ever changing face of MA and the effective marketing strategy of the franchise meet and hold hands.

Here is my description of a McDojo:
1) Motivated by patches, trophies, Large amount of belts, ribbons, certificates, Etc Etc Etc... All to retain or charge for the service rendured for getting those listed above.

2) The instructors teach so many children that they forget you aren't....

3) Weapons practice...whats that?

4) Any school with the following. "NAme of instructor + martial art name" and if there is a number at the end like 2,4,8..run

5)When doing punching drills....Having to say TAE KWON DO in three hit combos

6) There is a demonstration team were you uniforms look more like a stageshow than a MA school

7) So many patchs on your uniform, it looks more like a clown suit than a gi

8) The instructor gets confused when you throw a kick perfectly..the first time and doesnt know what to do the rest of the hour...
(Side note: I won a free month of "karate" from a McDojo. Dropped my business card in a box at a jamba juice and won...im sure everyone did also but hey. Got there and the instructor was like.. Lets see a nice hard kick with a HIYA. I said what the hell and did a nice big HIYA and a nice textbook kick. He just looked at me like I was tainted and said...hmmm...Well what do you want to do...I was just gonna work on kicks. So I spent the next hour actually helping him with some stuff and we had a lot of fun sparring and learning. Didn't go back but its fun to try something new.)

9. IF the window has a advertisement stating they teach, KArate, Kung fu, Wushu, TaiChi, Aikido...All at once...Run.

10. Watch a class...I can't explain it...but you can smell a cheeseburger dojo when you watch the class.

Slippery Slope man out!

[tshadowchaser]

Being a good businessman and useing good business practices dose not nessicarily make your school a McDojo.

[Kacey]

Originally Posted by tshadowchaser

Being a good businessman and useing good business practices dose not nessicarily make your school a McDojo.

I agree - the problem is when making money becomes more important than providing quality instruction. That's not to say that you can't do both - there are certainly people who do provide quality instruction and make money. Good business practices can certainly enhance making money while providing quality instruction. It's only when you ignore the quality for the income that the problem occurs - that is when you become at risk for becoming a McDojo.