Internal and External

[Xue Sheng]

I was not sure exactly where to post this, but since the separation between Internal and External martial arts seems to be a Chinese martial arts issue I figured here was good a place as any.

I came across these definitions in an old book of mine and I was wondering how others felt about them or if they were complete, needed something or were just plain wrong.

External – Stressed the regulation of breath, training of bones and muscles, ability to advance and retreat, and unity of hard and soft

Internal – Emphasized training of bones and muscles, exercise of ch’i-kung (Qi Gong) subduing the offensive by stillness, and had the aim of defeating the enemy the instant he attacked

[Asian Martial Arts – Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith]

[Flying Crane]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

I was not sure exactly where to post this, but since the separation between Internal and External martial arts seems to be a Chinese martial arts issue I figured here was good a place as any.

I came across these definitions in an old book of mine and I was wondering how others felt about them or if they were complete, needed something or were just plain wrong.

External – Stressed the regulation of breath, training of bones and muscles, ability to advance and retreat, and unity of hard and soft

Internal – Emphasized training of bones and muscles, exercise of ch’i-kung (Qi Gong) subduing the offensive by stillness, and had the aim of defeating the enemy the instant he attacked

[Asian Martial Arts – Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith]

To me, these definitions combine to describe ANY Chinese art, and probably most other arts as well. The only real difference I would say is the Internal arts place a higher level of focus on qi gong training.

[Xue Sheng]

Originally Posted by Flying Crane

To me, these definitions combine to describe ANY Chinese art, and probably most other arts as well. The only real difference I would say is the Internal arts place a higher level of focus on qi gong training.

I will say from what I understand they all end up the same in the end.

The saying it internal goes to external and external goes to internal.

I am not sure which style of Bagua it was/is but one of them use to, as all bagua styles, start out with internal training. However there was an external form that was taught only to advanced students.

And this line caught my eye from the definition of internal "and had the aim of defeating the enemy the instant he attacked" This is basically what Xingyi is all about from what I understand of it.

Not having that much training in Chinese external styles I am not if the definition that I found is complete.

And I do know the internals do but a whole lot of emphasis on Qi training, lots and lots of Qi training. But I really do not know how much Qi is trained in external styles.

[Flying Crane]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

And this line caught my eye from the definition of internal "and had the aim of defeating the enemy the instant he attacked" This is basically what Xingyi is all about from what I understand of it.

But I really do not know how much Qi is trained in external styles.

Again, I think ANY style would have the aim of defeating the enemy the instant he attacked. It is not alway possible or reasonable to expect it to happen this way given the particular circumstances, but that would be the ultimate aim.

In my own experience, I tend to not train much qi gong, but that is my choice. I am still young enough to be able to focus primarily on the external side of the external arts, and that is what I enjoy most so that is what I do. As I get older and perhaps reach a point where I can no longer do the external as well, then I suspect my focus will shift more to the internal. In the meantime, I also practice tai chi, but this is more as a side interest from the external arts. Again, I suspect that as I get older I will eventually begin to shift more toward Tai Chi.

I think qi gong in the external arts is different from the internal arts. The external arts, i think, 'force' the chi a bit more openly, and is something that I refer to as "hard qi". This can be seen in arts like Hung Gar, and Wing Chun that use dynamic tension exercises in the forms to build power. But to call these exercises 'dynamic tension' is overly simplistic and really not an accurate description because it is not just about flexing the muscles and progressing slowly through the movements. Rather, the body's power is forced and channelled thru the technique. As a beginner I think this takes on the form of pure physical muscle tension, but as one progresses it becomes more relaxed, and with channelled and directed force.

With internal arts, the development of qi is much more subtle and less obvious, and takes much longer and is more elusive, but perhaps has greater ultimate potential. I am sure you can give a much better description of this than I can.

At the risk of making an oversimplified statement, I will also suggest that qi developement in the Northern external styles is somewhat more similar to Internal Style qi development, than is Southern "hard qi" development. I think the description I gave above is somewhat more common to the Southern exernal arts than it is to the Northern. I wish I could give a better description than this, but this is about the best of my understanding.

[Xue Sheng]

Yes I imagine that would be the focus of any style now that you mention it.

That is pretty much what is said about hard styles in China, when the practitioner is young they have no need to train Internal. However a lot of external training supposedly creates an imbalance that needs to be corrected for health purposes when the practitioner gets older, thus the internal Qi Gong training begins.

You are correct about Hard Qi and soft Qi. As for the differences between external and internal, and here is an over simplified version, I believe it is that external builds up Qi in the limbs and then sends it inward, which is supposedly easier, And you are right more muscle tension is involved and after training this way for awhile it becomes easier to stay relaxed while executing your forms or attacks (This is also a big part of Xingyi – which is considered hard/soft).

Internal builds up Qi in the center and sends out to the limbs and it tends to be more relaxed and is supposedly more difficult and takes more time.

Since I have never work specifically on external Qi development, I truly cannot say which is harder. I have done much more internal work and from my experience that does appear to make it more difficult, however I would not place money on that statement.

I should know more the end of this month when I start Xingyi again. The Xingyi I did before was focused on form only; this is starting with standing training, which is to some extent Qi training.

[brothershaw]

1- I wouldnt say wing chun uses dynamic tension ( at least not how I am being taught),
2- I would say the big difference between internal and external is the body mechanics as far as with the internal there is a WHOLE lot more going on that has to be synchronized to get it to work.
3- I used to think that external stuff becomes internal but not really.
Yes the more you do stuff the better and more natural at it you become, however some of the alignment and body mechanic issues among other things that make internal styles internal( if you get them right) will NOT come to you if you practice a "external" style unless you begin to drastically change alot of stuff, which is more than just practicing the style for years and years and getting better at it.
4- Many people practice "internal " styles for years and only get it a basic mechanical level