Difference between Northern and Southern?

What exactly are the differences between Northern and Southern styles. I've read a few different explainations but I'd like to hear it from the practitioners.

[clfsean]

Lots, but not many.

In the generalized sense, barring internal/external, animal/hand, short/long & in no way a complete or even close to accurate & complete comparison ...

Southern systems tend to use hands more than Northern systems.
Southern systems tend to be a little more direct & straight forward in application & theory.
Southern systems tend to marry weapons to hands.

[Xue Sheng]

Look at were they were developed
North - more open space
South - small narrow streets

Wing Chun – Southern
Xingyi - Northern

Northern mantis - bigger movements
Southern Mantis - smaller movements.

That is my understanding.

[7starmantis]

Well, here are a couple of threads on the topic, soem interesting reading about the topic.

Northern, Southern Fighting Strategy

Northern vs Southern

Reading those threads you will see I have a big problem with the distinctions and its mostly from my training in 7* mantis. We are considered a "northern" system but fight (in my experience) more "southern" than many "southern arts". Let me say that my experiences are almost exclusively limited to mantis with only a bit of Hung Gar, Eagle Claw, and some basic Wing Chun. I also train heavily with partners from other systems such as Karate, Muay Thai, and Gracie Jujitsu. That being said, my intrest is mainly in fighting so I may appraoch the situation different from someone whose intrest is more for forms or the art of the systems.

Basically I think the distinction is usefull in explaining systems but fails to really capture the essence of any of the styles. I feel that a truly complete system will contain the best principles or techniques regardless of Northern or Southern distinction. I can see both "northern" and "southern" in many arts as I can see both "internal" and "external". So, I guess I would say take the distinction for a grain of salt and understand that its simply a way to classify and attempt to describe the methods of a system, not in any way a complete explination of any one style.

Ok, off my soap box...
7sm

[Flying Crane]

Originally Posted by 7starmantis

Basically I think the distinction is usefull in explaining systems but fails to really capture the essence of any of the styles. I feel that a truly complete system will contain the best principles or techniques regardless of Northern or Southern distinction. I can see both "northern" and "southern" in many arts as I can see both "internal" and "external". So, I guess I would say take the distinction for a grain of salt and understand that its simply a way to classify and attempt to describe the methods of a system, not in any way a complete explination of any one style.

Ok, off my soap box...
7sm

I think 7* has some good point here, and I will try to elaborate a bit.

Lets suppose there is a continuum, one end being Wing Chun representing the extreme Southern Style, and the other end being Northern Shaolin Longfist, representing the extreme Northern Style. (I am just using these styles as examples, not making any other implications here. This is just for the sake of discussion).

Each of these styles has certain stylistic characteristics that make it Northern or Southern. Other styles would fit somewhere on this continuum, some closer to Northern, others closer to Southern, some in the middle. But most would fall where they do for different reasons from each other.

Maybe there would need to be several continuums: stances, movement, kicking; punching. Each style would fall on the different continuums based on these aspects of the style. So in regard to kicking, one style might be closer to Northern, but in regard to punching the same system might be closer to Southern.

What I am trying to do here is just illustrate how difficult it becomes to fit any style into a general categorization like this. There is no way to really measure and and quantify these arts. I think point of origin is really the only good way to categorize an art as Northern or Southern, but stylistically it is just much more murky.

In addition to this, there is much more cross-training and borrowing from one style to another in modern times, then there was a few generations ago. Martial arts are no longer kept in such secrecy, and we are able to travel much more to train and see different things. People learn things and incorporate them into their parent style and the parent style changes based on this. This is another reason why it is difficult to make this kind of classification.

Sorry to ramble on like this, but these thoughts were just floating around in my head so I decided to try and share them.

[Xue Sheng]

Originally Posted by Flying Crane

In addition to this, there is much more cross-training and borrowing from one style to another in modern times, then there was a few generations ago. Martial arts are no longer kept in such secrecy, and we are able to travel much more to train and see different things. People learn things and incorporate them into their parent style and the parent style changes based on this. This is another reason why it is difficult to make this kind of classification.

Good point, I would imagine as China's political system changed, for instance when Mao came to power, many Northern stylists moved south which would add to that mix.

For example Yang Tai Chi comes from the North, but Yang Cheng fu taught in the south. Also today there is more freedom to move in China allowing Southern and Northern Stylist to move.

I was recently given a DVD from Beijing of a martial art I had not heard of, turns out it was Wing Chun with the Mandarin name instead of the Cantonese name. Once I have the name, I will let you know what it is, if you are interested.

[Flying Crane]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

Look at were they were developed
North - more open space
South - small narrow streets

Wing Chun – Southern
Xingyi - Northern

Northern mantis - bigger movements
Southern Mantis - smaller movements.

That is my understanding.

This is a bit of an oversimplification. Tibetan White Crane and Choy Li Fut are both considered "Southern", but use long, sweeping movements and lots of space, for example.

It is difficult to really categorize what the difference is. I think personally that different systems developed under various circumstances and influences and so simply are what they are. Generalizations often don't apply very well once you start looking at examples.

[Xue Sheng]

Not to get off subject, but I know nothing about "Tibetan White Crane"

Something called Tibetan is Southern?

[Flying Crane]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

Not to get off subject, but I know nothing about "Tibetan White Crane"

Something called Tibetan is Southern?

Well, it was originally Tibetan but was brought into southern China so got lumped in with the other southern systems. It has some stylistic similarities with Choy Li Fut, and influenced Hung Gar, esp. with the Fu Hok set of Wong Fei Hung. One of the original Ten Tigers of Canton was a White Crane guy (actually probably Lama or Hop Gar at the time, see next paragraph) and was a friend of Wong Fei Hung's father.

The system went thru some changes over the centuries. Origninally it was Lion's Roar style in Tibet, then Lama style (practiced by the Tibetan Lamas) when it was brought into China, then it took the name Hop Gar, and from Hop Gar it split into a sister art known as White Crane. They still all exist as distinct arts, but are very similar and come from the same root.

[CrushingFist]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

Look at were they were developed
North - more open space
South - small narrow streets

Wing Chun – Southern
Xingyi - Northern

Northern mantis - bigger movements
Southern Mantis - smaller movements.

That is my understanding.

I'd second that!
Also, I read that usually southern people were shorter and builder. And northern were taller

[funnytiger]

I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned that I'VE seen as a very southern thing is the low solid stances, especially in sei ping ma. Southern systems seem (to me) to be more rooted than northern systems.

You know what's funny though? When I think Southern systems I don't think of Wing Chun first. I think of Hung Ga as being a classic southern system. Deep rooted stances and powerful movements.

But that's just me. And I AM a little biased.

[7starmantis]

Originally Posted by funnytiger

I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned that I'VE seen as a very southern thing is the low solid stances, especially in sei ping ma. Southern systems seem (to me) to be more rooted than northern systems.

You know what's funny though? When I think Southern systems I don't think of Wing Chun first. I think of Hung Ga as being a classic southern system. Deep rooted stances and powerful movements.

But that's just me. And I AM a little biased.

Yeah, but thats the problem I have with the distinction. Look at Wah Lum, they have very low solid stances. In fact we hold horse stance low enough to lay a staff across the legs, and we are considered northern (7* mantis).

7sm

[MartialIntent]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

Look at were they were developed
North - more open space
South - small narrow streets

Wing Chun – Southern
Xingyi - Northern

Northern mantis - bigger movements
Southern Mantis - smaller movements.

That is my understanding.

I think in general this is true. I think the question itself leads to the simplification. Obviously there's no clear break between northern and southern but I think the above descriptions hold in general nonetheless.

I practised a southern style [Lau Gar - similar to Hung Family KF] for many years. It utilises much closer contact and less of the beautiful flamboyant spinning kicks etc. than perhaps used by more northerly originating styles. To me, northern styles were always much more "romantic" than us poor southern stylists. We're the bread-and-butter, get-the-job-done folk though!!

Respects!