To-Shin Do compared to Bujinkan compared to Shadows of Iga

[Bob Hubbard]

This is not a 'who is better' thread, but a comparison of the 2.

What are the differences/modifications/adaptations that SKH used in developing To-Shin Do that diferenciate it from his Bujinkan roots and his Shadows program.

Please, keep this polite. I'm looking to understand how these 3 relate and differ.

Thank you.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I just want to say that since the Bujinkan is so loosely controlled, you can literally find all sorts of training. Saying something like "this is the way it's done in Bujinkan" is simply not possible.

As for the existing FAQ differentiating the -kans and Toshindo, defense against shoots, round kicks (both low and high), boxing jabs, hooks, hammerfists and whatnot has been a natural part of my training for as long as I can remember. I see no reason to create a new style to teach these types of attacks within the Bujinkan.

The Shadows of Iga Ninja Society was an organization that taught the martial arts taught by Hatsumi Sensei.. The modern-day Shadows of Iga is now the name of the Bujinkan courses offered at the Quest Centers. Mr. Hayes mantained the same techniques essentially in creating To-Shin-Do, yet he teaches more henka for the techniques (like more groundfighting). Defense is taught against modern style attacks; legal considerations are also taught. To-Shin-Do students can elect to recieve Bujinkan rankings (as I have) because the techniques are the same; it is the teaching style that differs. Mr. Hayes' serious students usually move on to studying budo taijutsu because To-Shin-Do is like an introductory program of sorts. All of Mr. Hayes' To-Shin-Do godan (and above) have passed the Bujinkan godan sakki test.
So, summed up, Shadows of Iga= Hayes' Bujinkan program; Shadows of Iga Ninja Society (no longer exists)= an organization to spread and teach authentic ninpo in the west; To-Shin-Do= the basics of budo taijutsu in a western format, senior students move on to Bujinkan.
Hope this helps,
Jibran Khan

[Satt]

Hey that's interesting Jibran. Maybe I will start doing both To-Shin Do AND what you are doing then.

[Deaf]

Okl I'm going to bite on this one. I have trained in both (currently in bujinkan). I started within the Toshindo during it's infancy and later made the switch to Bujinkan.

Not to start a flame war but Jibran, you are not correct in the following:

Mr. Hayes mantained the same techniques essentially in creating To-Shin-Do, yet he teaches more henka for the techniques (like more groundfighting).

Sorry but that is not the case. What I remember is that Toshindo has a set cirriculum that requires the student to learn 2 to 4 techniques per rank. From my experience, there were very few henka offered during the training. The only time you really were taught henka or variations to the techniques was when you attended the Black Belt Club classes or seminars.

Although these techniques are similar yes, the core principles behind those techniques vary greatly between Toshindo and Bujinkan. For example, take a simple omote gyaku. The concept of any gyaku is to create a joint lock and displace the person's "flow" from which a throw or similar movement is created. Within Toshindo, I remember it strictly being about the joint lock iteself, nothing about moving your body or your uke's body to distrupt their flow and then "BOOM'.

To-Shin-Do students can elect to recieve Bujinkan rankings (as I have) because the techniques are the same; it is the teaching style that differs.

Ok this is just not possible! Yes the teaching style is completely different and there is nothing wrong with that. Hayes has choosed to try to incorporate a "more modern" approach to teaching by trying to teach the cirriculum much like a college course Now if you took kempo, would you except to be able to receive rank in kung fu as well? The logic of that is just messed up.

Mr. Hayes' serious students usually move on to studying budo taijutsu because To-Shin-Do is like an introductory program of sorts. All of Mr. Hayes' To-Shin-Do godan (and above) have passed the Bujinkan godan sakki test.

That is incorrect. If you, as a serious student of Toshindo, were to make the move to Bujinkan, then you would find that things are very very different. And the only way you can receive Godan rank within the Bujinkan is if you are currently in the Bujinkan and have the recommendation of a Bujinkan Shidoshi or Shihan. Yes there are several high ranking Toshindo people who have taken the Bujinkan Sakki Test however you have to know that they taken the test and received (if they passed) their rank AS STUDENTS of the Bujinkan and NOT Toshindo. Heck, many of them taken the test before Toshindo was even developed!

I don't mean to put you down with this but I believe that it is very important that people realize that the rank in Toshindo is NOT recognized in the Bujinkan and they are NOT the same. I just wished that the Quest Centers would emphasize this instead of letting mis-information proprogate.

Now on to the thread....

These are my observations from my experiences within Toshindo and Bujinkan so take them for what they are worth.

In Toshindo, I actually think that the cirriculum taught is a bit more restrictive than that of the Bujinkan. Less mat time, less playing and exploring. Where in the Bujinkan, it is not unusual to work on 4 or 5 variations or henka of one technique because the emphasis is not the actual technique itself but the core dynamics that are taking place that enables the technique to work in various settings or situations.

Ukemi is not emphasize all that much but that is a small difference because that can be said of such and such instructor within the Bujinkan as well. Most people think of ukemi being rolling and leaping but it is more than that. It is about safely moving your body out of danger. That is ukemi!

In Toshindo weapons were taught only in the Black Belt Club/Shadow of Iga club and/or special seminars. Now whether this is the case today, I don't know so someone from Toshindo will have to verify that one. Bujinkan...weapons are a big part of the cirriculum and it varies how much of a part from instructor to instructor.

Any thing else? Any specific area that you are questioning that you might want to know the differences between Toshindo vs. Bujinkan? This is really a very broad question. Maybe trying to narrow it down a bit would help some.

Toshindo is a totally seperate art than the Bujinkan. It has it's own philosophies, ways of showing techniques and "flow". Even though the "roots" of Toshindo were based off Hayes' early Bujinkan training...it has turned into something all of it's own accord. Unfortunately a LOT of people just don't realize this or choose to ignore that fact and keep insisting Toshindo and Bujinkan is one and the same, etc.

HTH,

~Deaf~

[Bob Hubbard]

Now, 1 question I have to ask is could things have changed between the time periods you both have direct knowledge of?

(hopefully I read everything right... )

Thank you for all the info though...please, I realize there can be some heat so keep it professional.

[Deaf]

Originally Posted by Kaith Rustaz

Now, 1 question I have to ask is could things have changed between the time periods you both have direct knowledge of?

(hopefully I read everything right... )

Thank you for all the info though...please, I realize there can be some heat so keep it professional.

Sure there are changes. The Bujinkan is changing constantly and I know that Hayes has revised his cirriculum since I have last been with him. He adds or takes out particular kata/gata waza etc. Based on how well people are picking them up and I'm sure he will say "their effectiveness in the modern world".

I run into Toshindo people coming to our dojo from time to time because they are looking for something different etc. So I see what they have learned and we discuss the changes that I see and know are different from how I learned from the Quest Centers when I was there in the past. Most notable of the changes are mainly within the basics, ukemi and weapons. And if compared to the basics, ukemi and weapons taught within many Bujinkan dojos, you can really tell the differences by ease of movement, posture and execution.

The thread is interesting and I'm hoping that with this thread people can hopfully begin to realize that Toshindo and Bujinkan are in no way the same etc.

~Deaf~

[still learning]

Hello, Sounds like every other martial art styles. Is change good? or not changing is better? Every instructor has their own perception of what their arts should be. Your background also influence your thoughts. Trying to compare two arts is like comparing two people, even twins are different if you look. Which is right? which is better? which one is changing? ....Aloha

Sir,
When I said that students take the Sakki test; I meant that they take it as Bujinkan members (such as Mark Russo, John Poliquin, etc.). Mr. Hayes encourages senior students to start training Bujinkan. At present time, in To-Shin-Do, you can take weapons training as soon as you would like. The training (at least now) teaches the concept and then teaches several possibilities of doing it. What I was saying about rank was not To-Shin-Do rank= Hombu Dojo recognized Bujinkan rank; that is completely incorrect, you are right. What I was stating is that To-Shin-Do students can elect to recieve Bujinkan ranking from Hatsumi Sensei versus To-Shin-Do ranking from Mr. Hayes. For ukemi, we are taught to escape out of danger and are taught possible dangers that can happen durin the roll/fall and how to avoid them. I am sure that you are 100% correct, Sir but To-Shin-Do has changed a bit since its beginnings.

Personally, If I had a choice between a Quest Center and a Bujinkan Dojo, I would take the Bujinkan Dojo; however, I do not yet have that choice. My choice is based on the one with better multimedia materials. I may elect to (seriously considering this) stop the HSC and just keep practicing San Shin No Kata and Kihon Happo. In mid-2007, when I move back to the US, I will train with Christopher Davy Shihan; I hope to train with you someday.

Domo Arigato Gozaimas,
Jibran Khan

Mr. Khan,

With all due respect, I think it may be best for you to allow someone who has had a bit more experience in these areas handle these questions. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but when you post on a subject, many people take it as fact, and, to be honest, that is how you present it. Just as on Kutaki, discretion should be used when posting.

That said, I do not have time at this moment to go through a point by point analysis, but when I do find a moment, I will. I have regularly trained with Mr. Hayes, and many other Bujinkan Shihan and Shidoshi for some years now, and I have a fairly developed perspective on the matter.

Having re-read my last post, I think it may come across as a little overbearing... but my point is still important.

[Shogun]

I just want to say that since the Bujinkan is so loosely controlled, you can literally find all sorts of training.

True. Bujinkan training only needs to contain the "general idea" of a particular technique, the rest is up to the instrcutor. You can go from one Dojo to the next and find a very different curriculum, practically a different martial art, and different skil levels. on the flip side, this may not allow you to pass tests to the higher ranks. also, I think the different skill levels is what SKH was straying away from, unintentionally maybe. all his students are learning all the same techniques. since most testing is done with Hayes at the Hombu, or with a Shihan who trains under hayes.

[Don Roley]

Originally Posted by Deaf

In Toshindo weapons were taught only in the Black Belt Club/Shadow of Iga club and/or special seminars. Now whether this is the case today, I don't know so someone from Toshindo will have to verify that one. Bujinkan...weapons are a big part of the cirriculum and it varies how much of a part from instructor to instructor.

I think I have to step in to underline the last sentence for clarity. People not involved in the training might not know that it indeeed does vary a great deal from instructor to instructor.

I know some teachers that do not teach swords at all, only firearms , knives, etc. Some do not teach firearms or knives at all. Some don't teach any weapons. Most teach a little from an early stage. My Japanese instructor really does not teach all that much except short sticks and knives to beggining students.

However, I have recently heard of an individual in the Bujinkan that I believe is mainly in it for the money. He does not teach weapons in class, but they are required for the belt tests he gives. To learn the techniques, you have to go to seminars that cost extra. Ka-ching! If you do not pony up the extra money to go to the seminars, you can't advance in rank. And certain things are held back until you reach a certain rank- like katas from certain schools. Thus the student has an incentive to stay with the instructor on a regular basis, go to the extra seminars, buy approved weapons from him, etc all in the name of lerning the complete art.

But most dojos I am aware of do not follow this pattern and merely try to present the information when it is best suited for the students. Considering the wide variety of levels in a typical class, this is not easy.

[Mountain Kusa]

There has always been a curriculum in the bujinkan and it is the Ten Chi Jen. Many instructors choose to leave it out or just concentrate on the "feeling", or just work constantly on Sanshin and kihon IE. parts. This is ok so long as a person is taught that it is O.K. to explore and find what works for them. Ten Chi Jen was given to help guide those who train in the Bujinkan onto better things.

Furthermore, each instructor has a different flavor. Hatsumi Sensei has been telling people for years that we need to train with as many as possible. Nobody's body style is the same nor are their way of thinking. As i look back on my training years, i realize i am a mixture of all my instructors input.

As for Kata, Kihon, Sanshin & etc. These are what has been written down or not, and is the basis of this and many other arts. These are what needs to be passed on. Some choose to do it exactly this way every time and therefor preserve the art. Some choose to find what it is teaching and find their own flavor. The Kata are the sanshin and Kihon, and the kihon is the kata and sanshin. It must be experienced through training to truly see it.

The bujinkan is what we make of it. We either take what we have been given, and work for ourselves to make ourselves better and help others along the way, or we make a mess of things.

There is now out there a bujinkan training curriculum guide, it has all the TCJ in it. As for Toshindo, Hayes has not trained with Hatsumi Sensei in years, and no matter what others may say, the scource is with Dr. Hatsumi. None of the others posess Kumigakure Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, or Gikan Ryu, so therefor, if we are to learn we must learn from Sensei, it is his art, it is not a democracy, and since he is Grandmaster, he may do with it as he feels. Like it or not, there is only one Grandmaster in this art, and he is it.

Chris Sanders

[Shizen Shigoku]

Well, actually the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki [check spelling vs. ten chi jen] hasn't been around forever, so no there hasn't always been a curriculum for the Bujinkan. The Tenchijin may have at one time been considered an official curriculum, but many no longer use it as such. I think it's a handy list of good basic taijutsu kata, and I hope every Bujinkan member gets exposed to the majority of its contents by shodan, or at least by yondan - in addition to all the weapons and auxillary skills.

In case there are some who are not familiar with the document, there are outlines of the book online, and some shidoshi have put out video CD's or DVD's showing the techniques contained therein.

Text outline: http://starbuck.virtualave.net/main/ninpo/tenchijin.htm

Mats Hjelm's video CD: http://www.kesshi.com/cgi-bin/yabb/Y...num=1073347464

Kevin Millis' DVD: http://www.budosupply.com/video/millis/ds1019.html