Favorite/Hated thing/s about Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Boy, do I feel silly...it just occured to me that the aforementioned ankokutoshijutsu has something to do with kamae, which indeed has to do with taijutsu. But still, that's a good example of the fact that there aren't any ninjutsu without taijutsu.

[Don Roley]

Originally Posted by Nimravus

But still, that's a good example of the fact that there aren't any ninjutsu without taijutsu.

Ok, I think that we are dealing with some crosed wires in communication.

Looking at the above, I think that you are of the opinion is not only about physical techniques and fighting. But the message I have gotten from a lot of what you write is that ninjutsu has nothing to do with fighting or physical techniques.

If you are saying that you need to have taijutsu down before you get into ninjutsu, then I agree. A lot of questionable people talk about inton no jutsu and such without talking about taijutsu and that should IMO set off some alarm bells.

But if you are saying that you can learn ninjutsu without the tonsogata, then I am still confused.

I honestly do not know and I am not sure if it is becasue you may not be a native speaker of English, I am just confused or if the subject is a very subtle one and difficult to talk about. But maybe we can settle this here and see if it is merely a matter of poor communication.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Originally Posted by Don Roley

But if you are saying that you can learn ninjutsu without the tonsogata, then I am still confused.

Didn't we just agree upon the fact that one's taijutsu has to be perfected before you can dabble into ninjutsu...?

[heretic888]

Interesting discussion, guys. Keep it up.

[Don Roley]

Originally Posted by Nimravus

Didn't we just agree upon the fact that one's taijutsu has to be perfected before you can dabble into ninjutsu...?

But take a look at the following statement by you and maybe you will see why I am confused at times over what you are trying to say.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...637#post301637 "As have been said before, ninjutsu in itself has nothing with physical techniques to do, it deals mainly with strategic concepts regarding the gathering and usage of information."

So if we have to perfect our taijutsu before we dabble in ninjutsu (agreed ) how is that you say that ninjutsu in itself has nothing to do with physical techniques? Especially since there is things like inton no jutsu, tonsogata, etc that are physical manifestations of the art?

Let me kind of try to explain how I feel about this. A sniper starts his journey the first day he gets off the bus at basic training. But he does not start SNIPER training until much later. It may be splitting hairs, but to say that you are studying to be a sniper starts long before you actually get into the sniper- specific stuff. In the same way, the physical stuff from Koto ryu, etc, that we learn before we start in on Togakure ryu really can't be divorced from the later training.

Did that make sense? I have not had my first jolt of caffine for the day.

[heretic888]

Originally Posted by Don Roley

Let me kind of try to explain how I feel about this. A sniper starts his journey the first day he gets off the bus at basic training. But he does not start SNIPER training until much later. It may be splitting hairs, but to say that you are studying to be a sniper starts long before you actually get into the sniper- specific stuff. In the same way, the physical stuff from Koto ryu, etc, that we learn before we start in on Togakure ryu really can't be divorced from the later training.

Well, Don, if I may be so bold as to interject here...

... I would maintain that the distinction you mentioned is not really "splitting hairs". Not at all.

Look at it this way: someone could hypothetically take up the same training in Koto ryu as Mr. Togakure Shinobi Down the Street did, and yet never be exposed to any ninjutsu-specific training. Not even once. At the same time, someone in the military could hypothetically take up the same basic training as Mr. Sniper Up the Alley did, and yet never be exposed to any sniping-specific training. Not even once.

In which case, would it really be accurate to refer to the Koto ryu stylist as a "ninja" or as "studying ninjutsu"?? Would it really be accurate to refer to the basic training soldier as a "sniper" or "studying sniping"??

Just my thoughts, at any rate.

[Don Roley]

Well heretic, I think we are on the same page. I guess I would say that you go to Basic training if you want to learn to be a sniper. But just because you sweat it out in basic training does not make you a sniper. You have to continue on.

In the same way, I would say that you go to a Bujinkan dojo to learn ninjutsu. But just because you have attended some classes there and seen some stuff from Koto ryu, etc, does not mean that you have learned anything really ninjutsu specific unless you stick it out and get the full picture.

I still have not gotten any coffee yet, so I hope that makes sense.

[heretic888]

Originally Posted by Don Roley

I still have not gotten any coffee yet, so I hope that makes sense.

Perfect sense.

Happy Thanksgiving, by the way.

Laterz.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Originally Posted by Don Roley

how is that you say that ninjutsu in itself has nothing to do with physical techniques? Especially since there is things like inton no jutsu, tonsogata, etc that are physical manifestations of the art?

Ah, now I think I know where the confusion is. By physical techniques, I meant combat oriented taijutsu. I have practiced the santo tonko no gata and the shinobi gaeshi gata (situations where one is discovered while hiding and starts flinging shuriken and metsubushi at sword wielding adversaries, the classic Togakure ryu style scenario), but I for one do not consider physical methods such as these to be "ninjutsu". I'd rather call it "ninpo taijutsu". But if there's something fundamentally wrong with this point of view, I would be more than happy to stand corrected.

[Shizen Shigoku]

Nimravus: "Ah, now I think I know where the confusion is. By physical techniques, I meant combat oriented taijutsu."

Gotcha - very clear now.

I like Don's analogy too. Brings up my question about whether it is alright to use "ninjutsu" and "ninja training" synonymously.

One may be engaged in ninja training, but not actually be learning or practicing any ninjutsu (according to Nim's definition - btw, is it alright if I call you Nim? Some people take offense at any diminution of their name).

However, it is assumed that if they continue on - like the soldier in sniper school that gets past basic training - then they will learn some ninjutsu along the way. Would it be alright then to call the overall process of that person's training, "ninjutsu?"

The arts that the Buj' teaches are now referred to as Budo Taijutsu - a very broad term that accurately describes the fact that we learn a broad range of skills. It used to be called Ninpo Taijutsu - the name changed, but the training essentially hasn't. In the past, though, ninpo was emphasized as the core feeling of the art. Before that, it was all referred to as Ninjutsu as that is what one would ultimately learn; whether they ever get around to any inton, or choho, or bunryaku, etc. they are still learning the building blocks that make up part of ninjutsu training.

That is why I think it is ok (not 100% accurate though) to refer to Bujinkan training as ninjutsu (i.e. ninjutsu = ninja training).

All of the ryu of the Bujinkan are related to ninpo in some way, even just in the sense that they have been taught together through Takamatsu. There are three ryu that specialize in ninjutsu - Togakure, Kumogakure, Gyokkushin; Gyokko and Koto ryu are related, and both serve as auxilery fighting arts to Togakure Ryu, Gyokkushin Ryu is related to Gyokko Ryu, Gyokko Ryu is called a school of ninpo as well. The so-called "samurai" arts of Kukishin, Takagi Yoshin, and Shindenfudo ryu have been passed down together. I think Kukishin has some connection to ninja ryu (if I'm to believe all the rumors I hear) - same with Shindenfudo Ryu. I don't know where Gikan fits in exactly - I'll have to check my sparse notes again on that.

All-in-all, it makes for one complete package of warfare and personal protection skills, but the overall flavor is that we are learning ninpo, regardless of what technique we're practicing. It all leads to a better understanding and ability to use ninjutsu.

Here's another analogy: I went to college to learn physics and engineering. I had to take classes in English Composition and Mathematics. Would one say while I was taking those classes that I was not learning engineering skills, or even that I was not an engineering student at all?

[Shizen Shigoku]

Oh, by the way, this whole discussion on what actually is ninjutsu is one of the favorite and hated things about ninjutsu - so I think we're still on topic.

My favorite thing is that ninjutsu training teaches so much that it can sometimes be confusing as to what ninjutsu actually is.

The hated thing is that ninjutsu training teaches so much that it can sometimes be confusing as to what ninjutsu actually is.



Another favorite thing is that I can come on these fora and have interesting discussions about ninjutsu and ninjutsu related matters with all of you. For that I am thankfull (I still have so much to be thankful for that I couldn't fit it all into Thangsgiving Day yesterday)!

So thank you all!

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Originally Posted by Shizen Shigoku

btw, is it alright if I call you Nim? Some people take offense at any diminution of their name).

As long as you don't spell it Nimh...damned movie destroyed my childhood...

Originally Posted by Shizen Shigoku

Would it be alright then to call the overall process of that person's training, "ninjutsu?"

I honestly don't think so.

Originally Posted by Shizen Shigoku

It used to be called Ninpo Taijutsu - the name changed, but the training essentially hasn't.

Really? I'm constantly being told the opposite.

Originally Posted by Shizen Shigoku

All-in-all, it makes for one complete package of warfare and personal protection skills, but the overall flavor is that we are learning ninpo, regardless of what technique we're practicing.

Takagi Oriemon Shigenobu would be rotating in his grave of course...

Originally Posted by Shizen Shigoku

Here's another analogy: I went to college to learn physics and engineering. I had to take classes in English Composition and Mathematics. Would one say while I was taking those classes that I was not learning engineering skills, or even that I was not an engineering student at all?

Given the amount of ninjutsu taught in the Bujinkan in comparison with taijutsu and bukiwaza, if that analogy were to be totally correct, you went to college to learn English.

[Moko]

What's this then?

It was 1943? My Dad was in an elite cavalry regiment on the silver medal team in WWII. They were withdrawl experts and usually took over dug-in positions and held them while the Div they replaced skedaddled to new positions and dug in.
He and his #2 were in what must have been an observation trench (as it was on the forward slope) with communications trenches cut to the rear and their horses. (The horse were just for Transportation.) He had his MG42 and orders to hold the Russians off as long as possible.
In the valley in front of him was a big old fieldstone farmhouse with a huge haystack beside it. Behind the haystack were lots of Russians who meant my father great harm. Dad had set the sights on the MG slighty off the haystack towards the house and each time a Russian ran to the house he ran into where the bullets were going. Dad didn't aim at the Russian, he aimed in front of them. He was a very adept Machine-gunner.
Soon there was a pile of Russians lying between the haystack and the house and my Dad still wasn't making any buddies. Suddenly, for no apparent reason Dad ducked down into the trench and pulled his MG after him. As he ducked he turned and happened to see the "fire" from the tracer that entered his #2's leg.

What made Dad duck? Ninjutsu? That's a Japanese thing isn't it? Dad was very, very German. Sakki? Possible. He had annoyed enough of the Russians. (He was in awe of the Russian machine gunner who shot at him as the guy was right on for range and drift. He figures they were over a klick away, on the ridge opposite the valley with house and haystack.)

I have never figured this one out. Any help would be cool.

Robert

[Don Roley]

Robert,
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I really do not know how what you wrote has to do with this thread. I know we kind of went form hated and favorite thing, to what we would call ninjutsu training. But I still have trouble making the conection with what you wrote. Can you graph it out for me?

But, it was a cool story. I know a little about the Eastern front battles and have been around when a MG42 cut loose. Sounds like a freaking buzz saw it fires so fast. I did not know much about the use of calvary as covering units for retrograde actions.

[Moko]

Thread drift.

Mea culpa.

I've heard an MG 42 also. Tearing canvas is my description of it.

That story has always weirded me out. I didn't understand it and after training in the Bujikan understand less but feel that maybe I should. Be nice to talk to Dad about it but the long distance would kill me. Ooo, bad pun.

Maybe just that the Japanese used ninjutsu or ninpo to desscribe a higher level of warfare? I don't know. That's why I ask questions and read.

One day I will write Dad's stories down. I'll send you a copy. Or tell you some of them over a brewsky. They are amazing stuff.

Robert

PS if anyone else wants to comment on that story go for it in a pm. I thought it kinda appropriate. outta here. Keep up the good work.