R.O.S.S. vs Systema

A few people have e-mailed me asking the difference between ROSS and Vlad's Systema.

First of all, Systema in Russia from what I gather means almost any art practiced. They are not big on the names. However in North America and other places Vlad is the first to use the name Systema and so he is widely seen as the man associated with this art.

Vlad's systema is based on the training of the Spetsnaz and the tradiational arts of the Russian people. There are many Systema's in Russia though, ROSS, being one of them. Vlad's is based on "Sokoli Stalina" or "Stalin's Falcons" as the system was trained in by the highest ranking guards to Stalin. The following write up is from the Systema website:

"These were Stalin's bodyguards while he was in power for almost 30 years until his death in 1953 and then later by the Special Military Operations Units for the highest risk missions in KGB, GRU and other government bodies.
Close protection has always been the most vulnerable and challenging area in martial arts. The goal of Stalin's Falcons was to have a system that combined all the best components on all three levels of human abilities - the physical, the psychological and the psychic. But most importantly, the aim was to develop tactics that would not look like martial actions, yet remain so subtle, that when they were applied it would be barely possible to see what happened and how.
Needless to say, this System was kept away from the public by the Russian authorities. In fact, when the Communists came to power in 1917, they suppressed all national traditions. It is only since the late 1980s, with the fall of the Communist era, that these martial traditions and styles started to become available."

So While the main army learned Sambo work the Spetnaz was learning Systema style work. From what I understand ROSS is based on the Sambo/Judo work. Systema does include this but continues past it.

[Klondike93]

I asked my instructor about ROSS, specifically the guy that has the school in Atlanta I think it is and all he'd say is "don't get me started on that".

You know anything about him Gou?

[Roland]

..but it looks more technique focused, whle Vlad's I find is about realxing, and accepting what YOU can do. He gives ideas, but expects you to move, not like him, he just guides. you have to be your own person, and move how you are able to at the time. It is like he just suggests options to you.
Damn, now that sounds flaky. This is one of those things that talking about, or even seeing, it just seems weird.
You have to experience.




Wish I could explain better.

I have only seen video. But if your instructor is refering to a guy I think he is, it's a business thing. Don't worry about it.

[Klondike93]

Sounds like more politics I guess, oh well I would stick with systema anyways. Just curious is all.

[Roland]

One of the many reasons I like going to Systema, I mean after all the kewl stuff, is that at my level there are no politics to get involved in. Just the pure enjoyment of the training!!

Being a white belt, well, no belt there, is just the best thing ever!

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Roland

Being a white belt, well, no belt there, is just the best thing ever!

Is there some sort of certification of instructors or other ranking system in Systema?

It would also be interesting to hear more about ROSS and other "systemas"! I had dinner tonight with a former Russian, now living in the states, and wanted very much to ask him about this sort of thing but as it was a job interview for him I thought it might be rude to focus on my interests.

[Klondike93]

I had heard there were some people trying to certify and structure systema, so it depends on who you go to.

My instructor is trained by Vladimir and he doesn't give out certificates that I know of. I am told how ever that Vlad does know who can teach and who can't.

Originally Vlad had an instructor certification thing for people wanting to open schools. As far as I know this has not been continued. (I may be wrong) Vlad is well aware who is who and what in systema I am sure.

This one has been kicked around on a few other forums I frequent. Scott Sonnon, of ROSS, Said something like....ROSS has more of the hard work while the Systema tends more to the soft stuff.

I gathered then that ROSS is more like an external style, like Hung Gar, and that Systema is more of an internal style, like Pa qua zhang.

Does that make any sense to people? The systema as an internal style makes sense to me but I have only seen the systema vids. Man does Vlad have any bones in his body?

Tony

[arnisador]

Originally posted by tmanifold

The systema as an internal style makes sense to me but I have only seen the systema vids.

I have seen several of the videos and I know just what you mean.

Hello everyone,

Interesting thread with lots of questions. Perhaps I can help shed some light on ROSS.

GouRonin, you mention in your first post that you believe that ROSS is "based on the Sambo/Judo work," and that "Systema does include this but continues past it." As you stated this was your understanding and to be fair to you and the readers of this forum it is not accurate and is a rather simplistic description of ROSS. Rather than write a description out myself anyone interesting is ROSS can go to www.amerross.com and read some of the info provided there. A quick look will tell anyone who is really interested that ROSS is far more than a reworking of Sambo or judo. Understand that Iam not trying to get on your back just offering some light on what ROSS really is.

ROSS is not a technique focused system as Roland has suggested. Again even a brief look at the ROSS homepage will reveal that one of the things that sets ROSS apart from its contemporaries is that it is a system of principles and performance enhancement not a collection of techniques.

Tmanifold --you mentioned hard and soft work. From my perspective and from what I have heard from Scott, ROSS tries to balance out hard and soft work. Rather than thinking of ROSS as an external style consider it as a system that explores and makes use of both performance enhancing methods--both internal and external or hard and soft work.

There was also a mention of politics in this thread. With over sixteen years in the martial arts I have had my share of politics and martial back stabbing. I am happy to say that I have encountered none of this in ROSS. Time spent arguing with other martial artists about what style is better and whose teacher could kick whose teachers ass is a waste of time and energy. Rather than talking about styles and systems in terms of this one VS that one it is more productive to talk about the merits of each. The VS part is meaningless unless people have an agenda they want to promote.

I hope I was able to offer something of value to this thread. I encourage anyone interested in ROSS or System to go to the sources and do some research into their systems. For real info do some real footwork.

Originally posted by shawnm
GouRonin, you mention in your first post that you believe that ROSS is "based on the Sambo/Judo work," and that "Systema does include this but continues past it." As you stated this was your understanding and to be fair to you and the readers of this forum it is not accurate and is a rather simplistic description of ROSS. Rather than write a description out myself anyone interesting is ROSS can go to www.amerross.com and read some of the info provided there. A quick look will tell anyone who is really interested that ROSS is far more than a reworking of Sambo or judo. Understand that Iam not trying to get on your back just offering some light on what ROSS really is.

My understanding of what ROSS is is from having seen what I have via video which because of a judo background grappling wise looked a lot like Judo. That doesn't mean it is and I can accept that.

What I do not accept is the given version of ROSS's history of Systema. However, to argue is fruitless at times as you point out. Cheers.

My understanding of what ROSS is is from having seen what I have via video which because of a judo background grappling wise looked a lot like Judo. That doesn't mean it is and I can accept that.

--fair enough and as you say just because it looks that way to you doesn't mean it "is" that way.

As for history and the rest I agree that an argument isn't what this thread needs. Scott and Vlad to my understanding do not have a problem with one another and I think that their students and those interested in Russian Martial Arts could better spend thier time exploring RMA's and training rather than fighting amonst eachother.

Originally posted by shawnm
--fair enough and as you say just because it looks that way to you doesn't mean it "is" that way.

I agree. It only looks that way to me because of my previous exposure to another art.

There is a lot of internal stuff going on at Vlad's for sure. Just the other day he was demonstrating how he could make a person "dance" by punching and affecting an internal organ.