Internal, grappling in Wing Chun

have a couple questions actually.

First, do any of your schools have grappling incoorperated into Wing Chun? If so could you give some examples.

Also, does schools try to incoorperate some of the more internal MA type of things into your Wing chun training?

thanks in advance,

[ed-swckf]

Originally Posted by Katsu Jin Ken

have a couple questions actually.

First, do any of your schools have grappling incoorperated into Wing Chun? If so could you give some examples.

Also, does schools try to incoorperate some of the more internal MA type of things into your Wing chun training?

thanks in advance,

mine don't involve grappling but we do wing chun on the floor, i do a bit of grappling external to the club.

we touch on a few different aspects of internal kung fu we also use auto suggestion.

[spatulahunter]

at our school we will take a lock if it is there and convenient but we do not search for locks like a jujutsu practitioner would

thats how we are at my school also Spat, "locking, seizing, controlling, striking, countering, taking down,.............all indictations of good flow"

also, "if its their take it, if its not, move on"

i dunno who said them.

[Hung Fa Moose]

At my school, both grappling and anti-takedowns are taught making use of the earth line of wing chun. We learn how to stay on our feet against grapplers shooting for our waists or legs, as well as how to get out of headlocks, chokes, bear hug and the like.


We also incorporate internal chi gung development and cultivation into our training through exercises such as jaam Jong (Standing Structure) and some forms, such as Fa Kuen and Sup Yuht Kuen.


Steve

[arnisador]

Speaking of internal...the first form in Wing Chun strongly reminds me of Goju-ryu's Tensho kata, which is the softer (more internal) counterpart of Sanchin. Does anyone know if there is a connection?

[bcbernam777]

In my opinion grappling has no place in Wing chun, and there is already internal training in Wing chun, from the very start.

[7starmantis]

Originally Posted by bcbernam777

In my opinion grappling has no place in Wing chun, and there is already internal training in Wing chun, from the very start.

In this sense, what is the Wing Chun practitioners weapon if found on the ground with a grappler?

7sm

[bcbernam777]

Originally Posted by 7starmantis

In this sense, what is the Wing Chun practitioners weapon if found on the ground with a grappler?

7sm

THE REASONS WHY WE CAN AVOIND GOING TO GROUND

If trained properly the Wing Chun practicioner does not go to the ground, I think I have posted the reasons why before, but basicaly for the following reasons we dont have to end up on the ground:

A) firstly the Wing Chun practicioner developes a well developed root, this being the Sui Lum Tao energy, the problem is that a lot of Wing Chun Schools simply do not develop their students in this aspect of Wing Chun, in so doing they rob their students on what is realisticly the essence of its effectiveness,

B) the other reasons they shouldn't go to the ground is quite simple, they move, I dont know why it is but so many students have no real world footwork, their feet are dead, they have no conception of fighting distance, or timing, or of the basic principals of true mobilolty in a real world situation

C) another aspect is the rotational power of the Chum Kui, I have had people try to tackle me before, and utilised the rotation of the Chum Kui, they always without exemption would shoot out the other direction, it was a fundamental case of using their force against them.

Now a couple of practical reasons why you would not want to go to the ground:

A) if you go rolling around the ground with someone you can end up with a nasty supries in your back, e.g. broken glass etc, or you could end up rolling around on some nasty terrain, bitchamun, concrete, rocks etc, etc.

B) If you do go to the ground you have no idea if the oponant has a couple of mates waiting around the corner, in that case you definitly dont want to go to the ground.

IF YOU DO GO TO THE GROUND

The goal of Wing Chu is to not go to the ground, but if you do end up on the ground then you can still utilise enough of the principles in Wing Chun, even on the ground, to get you out of trouble, and get you back on your feet, you can still utilise the proper structure, the use of the centreline, the CK and BJ energy, the elbow line, etc etc to regain control, even on the ground.

[Danny T]

bcbernam777 I feek you make a few contradictions here.

If trained properly the Wing Chun practicioner does not go to the ground, I think I have posted the reasons why before, but basicaly for the following reasons we dont have to end up on the ground:

Are you saying only improperly trained WC practitioners will ever go to the ground or be taken to the ground? That is liken to only improperly trained driver’s will ever get into an vehicle accident. Honestly now, you don’t really believe this do you? First you state does not go to the ground, then you explain why we don’t “have” to end up on the ground. There is a large difference between “Does not go to the ground” and “we don’t have to end up on the ground.

A) firstly the Wing Chun practicioner developes a well developed root, this being the Sui Lum Tao energy, the problem is that a lot of Wing Chun Schools simply do not develop their students in this aspect of Wing Chun, in so doing they rob their students on what is realisticly the essence of its effectiveness,

This I agree with however, this still will not stop the practitioner from never ever go to the ground. So what happens if you do go to the ground? What do you call it? Laying on your back or sitting on your opponent WC? I happen to call it grappling because it denotes the range of combat we are in whether standing or on the ground.

You can certainly utilize WC in all grappling situations just as you can in a standing grappling situation. It can be called whatever you wish it is still grappling or maybe we could agree to call ground chin na, the art of seizing or grasping the opponent.

B) the other reasons they shouldn't go to the ground is quite simple, they move, I dont know why it is but so many students have no real world footwork, their feet are dead, they have no conception of fighting distance, or timing, or of the basic principals of true mobilolty in a real world situation

Now you say “shouldn’t go to the ground”, before you stated, “does not go to the ground”. Which is it?
And yes mobility is a great deterrent to being taken down however it isn’t 100% failsafe.

C) another aspect is the rotational power of the Chum Kui, I have had people try to tackle me before, and utilised the rotation of the Chum Kui, they always without exemption would shoot out the other direction, it was a fundamental case of using their force against them.

Again, I agree this is a very good move which is use in many other arts as well as WC but isn’t foolproof. Even great athletes get tackled in football and rugby. We accept that as a part of the game. They work very hard at not getting caught or tackled but it still happens. I don’t believe the average WC practitioner has any more ability than them. So there is a strong possibility of being taken down also.

Now a couple of practical reasons why you would not want to go to the ground:

A) if you go rolling around the ground with someone you can end up with a nasty supries in your back, e.g. broken glass etc, or you could end up rolling around on some nasty terrain, bitchamun, concrete, rocks etc, etc.

B) If you do go to the ground you have no idea if the oponant has a couple of mates waiting around the corner, in that case you definitly dont want to go to the ground.

This I also agree with, I don’t want to go to the ground, but this still contradicts your previous statement of “the properly trained WC practitioner does not go to the ground.

The goal of Wing Chu is to not go to the ground, but if you do end up on the ground then you can still utilise enough of the principles in Wing Chun, even on the ground, to get you out of trouble, and get you back on your feet, you can still utilise the proper structure, the use of the centreline, the CK and BJ energy, the elbow line, etc etc to regain control, even on the ground.

Ahh, now the “goal” is not to go to the ground. Again a contradiction of the statement, “… WC practitioner does not go to the ground. I agree that you can utilize many WC principles on the ground and should be able to once properly trained in doing so in that environment. The principles of WC can be utilized in all aspects and arenas of combat. But if the practitioner isn’t familiar with that aspect then they will have a difficult time performing there.

I have had the pleasure of training in WC for almost 2 decades. I have utilized it standing, kneeling, with weapons, and on my back. Now I’m not the greatest or even close to be a great martial artist so maybe it takes more training on my part but being able to use the WC principles in a ground position took me quite some time to become proficient at it. As to a WC practitioner not going to the ground, you have never really worked against a non stopping opponent of equal ability then. It is easy to sidestep and redirect an attacker’s energy,
1. when you know it is coming and then they stop, not continuing the attack
2. they are only committed partially to attacking you.
3. they are not as advanced as you or are considerable weaker than you.

Take someone with the same training as you and have them attack you fully committed to taking you to the ground once they are able to. I believe you or any other practitioner will have their hands full in “not going to the ground.” Now this not to say I want to go to the ground for I don’t and do a lot of training to prevent it if possible. But, I am also realistic and acknowledge want can happen and am willing to training for that possibility. WC is a great system for learning about yourself, your body and how to use is all distances of fighting. I am certain you train from long distance (no contact) to bridging to very close right up to the point of the opponent or you being able to grasp the other. I'm also certain you work takedowns on the opponent, what happens if you are takendown? You must train in that environment for it is different.

Danny Terrell

[brothershaw]

I see this has become a UFC thread or I have jsut turned it into one. LOL

Anyway
1- alot MORE people now focus on fighting on the ground and taking people to the ground ( not necessarily a good thing) but its been getting great hype for years now
2- I THINK that if you have moderate to minimal training in ground fighting against someone with no experience you have a good advantage whereas if you have some standup training ( in punching/ striking) you have a greater chance still losing to an inexperienced person.
3- Bottom line is wing chun like MOST systems are based on taking out your oppenent b4 it goes tothe ground. In a fight anything can happen.
4- Often by the time a fight "goes " to the ground one person isnt fighting anymore they are just taking a beating, not being submitted
5- If you are half unconscious by the time you hit the ground it may not matter much what you know if you cant execute it
6- If you want to grapple learn bjj, sombo, or judo - always try to go to the experts

[bcbernam777]

bcbernam777 I feek you make a few contradictions here.

Quote:
If trained properly the Wing Chun practicioner does not go to the ground, I think I have posted the reasons why before, but basicaly for the following reasons we dont have to end up on the ground:

Are you saying only improperly trained WC practitioners will ever go to the ground or be taken to the ground? That is liken to only improperly trained driver’s will ever get into an vehicle accident. Honestly now, you don’t really believe this do you? First you state does not go to the ground, then you explain why we don’t "have" to end up on the ground. There is a large difference between "Does not go to the ground" and "we don’t have to end up on the ground.

You need to add in the words "the goal of Wing Chun is not to go to the ground" with all due respect please quote me in context, and no i am not saying only improperly trained WC practicioners will ever go to the ground, but let me say this, you would be hard pressed to find a Wing Chun practioner who has been training properly for 20 plus years who could be taken to the ground, the zenith of Wing Chun is to not be taken to the ground, we reach for perfection through our training.



Quote:
A) firstly the Wing Chun practicioner developes a well developed root, this being the Sui Lum Tao energy, the problem is that a lot of Wing Chun Schools simply do not develop their students in this aspect of Wing Chun, in so doing they rob their students on what is realisticly the essence of its effectiveness,

This I agree with however, this still will not stop the practitioner from never ever go to the ground. So what happens if you do go to the ground? What do you call it? Laying on your back or sitting on your opponent WC? I happen to call it grappling because it denotes the range of combat we are in whether standing or on the ground.

You can certainly utilize WC in all grappling situations just as you can in a standing grappling situation. It can be called whatever you wish it is still grappling or maybe we could agree to call ground chin na, the art of seizing or grasping the opponent.


No this energy alone will not which is why you need to combine it with the other energies of the Chum kui and the Bui Jee. I have yet to find someone who can take me to ground onn a one on one situation, the dynamics may change in a multiple oponannt situation, so this is something I must as a practioner facotr into my training. Yes as I said towards the end if yu do go to the ground then Wing Chun does contain answers to the problem, however this should only ever be the exception rather than the rule.


Quote:
B) the other reasons they shouldn't go to the ground is quite simple, they move, I dont know why it is but so many students have no real world footwork, their feet are dead, they have no conception of fighting distance, or timing, or of the basic principals of true mobilolty in a real world situation

Now you say "shouldn’t go to the ground", before you stated, "does not go to the ground". Which is it?
And yes mobility is a great deterrent to being taken down however it isn’t 100% failsafe.

The "art" doesnt go to the ground, the practioner shouldn't go to the ground by being in harmony with the art. It is if properly combined with timing, an understanding of the proper fighting distance, a full range of mobility options, reaction, and total sensory perception, again it cimes down to training.


Quote:

C) another aspect is the rotational power of the Chum Kui, I have had people try to tackle me before, and utilised the rotation of the Chum Kui, they always without exemption would shoot out the other direction, it was a fundamental case of using their force against them.

Again, I agree this is a very good move which is use in many other arts as well as WC but isn’t foolproof. Even great athletes get tackled in football and rugby. We accept that as a part of the game. They work very hard at not getting caught or tackled but it still happens. I don’t believe the average WC practitioner has any more ability than them. So there is a strong possibility of being taken down also.


the key word you used was "average" the reason why Bruce was such a superb Martial artist was not by natural ability but because he pushed himself beyond the "average" bounds

Quote:
Now a couple of practical reasons why you would not want to go to the ground:

A) if you go rolling around the ground with someone you can end up with a nasty supries in your back, e.g. broken glass etc, or you could end up rolling around on some nasty terrain, bitchamun, concrete, rocks etc, etc.

B) If you do go to the ground you have no idea if the oponant has a couple of mates waiting around the corner, in that case you definitly dont want to go to the ground.

This I also agree with, I don’t want to go to the ground, but this still contradicts your previous statement of "the properly trained WC practitioner does not go to the ground.

Doesn't = Art; Shouldn't = Practioner

Quote:
The goal of Wing Chu is to not go to the ground, but if you do end up on the ground then you can still utilise enough of the principles in Wing Chun, even on the ground, to get you out of trouble, and get you back on your feet, you can still utilise the proper structure, the use of the centreline, the CK and BJ energy, the elbow line, etc etc to regain control, even on the ground.

Ahh, now the "goal" is not to go to the ground. Again a contradiction of the statement, "… WC practitioner does not go to the ground. I agree that you can utilize many WC principles on the ground and should be able to once properly trained in doing so in that environment. The principles of WC can be utilized in all aspects and arenas of combat. But if the practitioner isn’t familiar with that aspect then they will have a difficult time performing there.

Then they need to train

I have had the pleasure of training in WC for almost 2 decades. I have utilized it standing, kneeling, with weapons, and on my back. Now I’m not the greatest or even close to be a great martial artist so maybe it takes more training on my part but being able to use the WC principles in a ground position took me quite some time to become proficient at it. As to a WC practitioner not going to the ground, you have never really worked against a non stopping opponent of equal ability then. It is easy to sidestep and redirect an attacker’s energy,
1. when you know it is coming and then they stop, not continuing the attack
2. they are only committed partially to attacking you.
3. they are not as advanced as you or are considerable weaker than you.

Take someone with the same training as you and have them attack you fully committed to taking you to the ground once they are able to. I believe you or any other practitioner will have their hands full in "not going to the ground." Now this not to say I want to go to the ground for I don’t and do a lot of training to prevent it if possible. But, I am also realistic and acknowledge want can happen and am willing to training for that possibility. WC is a great system for learning about yourself, your body and how to use is all distances of fighting. I am certain you train from long distance (no contact) to bridging to very close right up to the point of the opponent or you being able to grasp the other. I'm also certain you work takedowns on the opponent, what happens if you are takendown? You must train in that environment for it is different.

Of course you will have your hands full, but this is why you train and train and train, dailly, hourly, minute by minute, finding your answers inside of the way instead of trying to attach another way which contradicts the former way.

I did not contradict myself it is just you misunderstood what it was I was trying to express

[ed-swckf]

Originally Posted by bcbernam777

In my opinion grappling has no place in Wing chun, and there is already internal training in Wing chun, from the very start.

In the sense of grappling like BJJ and arts that share similaritys, i would agree, it has no place in the teaching of wing chun.