Tang Soo Do or Soo Bahk Do?

[maunakumu]

If you train in TSD, how do you connect with Hwang Kee? Do you acknowledge him as the founder of your system? I realize this question is highly political and I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to get some perspective from other TSD groups out there. I myself trained in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan until 1st gup. Then my instructor pulled out of the federation because he felt that it stifled the creativity of students and that it wasn't really doing anything to make our school better..

[arnisador]

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...&threadid=7256

There have been other discussions along these lines as well!

The organization I am affilited with broke away from the Moo Duk Kwan back in 1982.
I acknowledge Hwang Kee as the founder of the MDK, but not as the founder of Tang Soo Do, as there were multiple instructors at the time using the name Tang Soo Do as the style taught by their Kwan.
I've read an interview with General Choi where he says that even he called the style he taught to the military "Tang Soo" before he came up with the name Taekwon-Do.

[maunakumu]

That is interesting. I've never heard that before. I've always been taught that ALL Tang Soo Do comes from Hwang Kee.

Tang Soo and Kong Soo are the Korean pronounciations for Kara Te, and were in wide use.

Hwang Kee first called his style Hwa Soo Do, but his first few schools failed. As Tang Soo Do was the popular terms, he picked up the forms and name and began teaching it also.... the rest is history.

Lee Won Kuk was the first to use the term Tang Soo Do in 1944, Hwang Kee didn't use the term for several years after that (I believe in 1947).

Hope this helps

[maunakumu]

Are Lee Wan Kuk and Hwang Kee connected in any way? Did they train together? Something else?

[Mithios]

I have heard that Hwang Kee trained at Won Kuk Lee's dojang before founding the Moo Duk Kwan. Mithios

[maunakumu]

The Soo Bahk Do guys I know would be screaming if they heard that. Post it on their board and flame away....

[Mithios]

Won Kuk Lee also said it in an interview in TKD times. year before last i think. I will dig around and see if i can find it in this mess. How about you post it wooweee LOL , Mithios

Hwang Kee and Lee Won-kuk were friends, and I do believe Hwang trained with him for a short while.

The Moo Duk Kwan was founded before he trained with Lee. I believe he was getting coaching on how to do the Pyung-ahn forms properly, as that was not in Hwang's background - but of course was Lee's.

Hwang admitted that after talking to Lee, he decided to also use the name TangSooDo and switch to using the Okinawan Karate forms as Lee and the others were all doing.

Originally Posted by upnorthkyosa

If you train in TSD, how do you connect with Hwang Kee? Do you acknowledge him as the founder of your system? I realize this question is highly political and I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to get some perspective from other TSD groups out there. I myself trained in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan until 1st gup. Then my instructor pulled out of the federation because he felt that it stifled the creativity of students and that it wasn't really doing anything to make our school better..

You've brought up a common misunderstanding about Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan. Tang Soo Do is a much larger style than Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. There are Tang Soo Do (not Moo Duk Kwan) schools over over the world. They are generally hard to find, generally taught at recreation centers, YMCA's, etc. by instructors that are dedicated to the art and not money.

Soo Bahk Do is the latest name Grandmaster Hwang Kee used to define his style that always underwent continuous changing. It is no longer related to Tang Soo Do but MAY be close to Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

Best Regards,

Len Losik

[glad2bhere]

Am I to understand that the actual material taught in these two arts (MDK and TSD) are essentially the same and the differences are more political or personality driven? The reason I ask is it seems that differences in various "styles" seems to have a whole lot more to do about the teaching or organizational priorities than ever in the actual execution of techniques. Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[maunakumu]

Originally Posted by Len Losik

You've brought up a common misunderstanding about Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan. Tang Soo Do is a much larger style than Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. There are Tang Soo Do (not Moo Duk Kwan) schools over over the world. They are generally hard to find, generally taught at recreation centers, YMCA's, etc. by instructors that are dedicated to the art and not money.

Soo Bahk Do is the latest name Grandmaster Hwang Kee used to define his style that always underwent continuous changing. It is no longer related to Tang Soo Do but MAY be close to Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

Best Regards,

Len Losik

TSD schools unrelated to the MDK are not so hard to find. In my area, we have quite a few. I have met the instructors and trained with them and gone out and talked about the differences. All of the people I've talked to were connected in some way to Hwang Kee. SBD is an organization created to standardize TSD technique because the Grandmaster felt that it was getting bastardized. Otherwise, SBD is/was TSD at one time or another. The reasons for the splintering vary depending on who you talk to. The most common theme was Hwang Kee's insistance of promoting his own son as grandmaster above his senior students. This move drove them to create their own organizations and sometimes create their own histories...

[glad2bhere]

That theme just never seems to die, does it. Daddy starts a business and wants to pass it along to the son. In Hapkido we have the same thing with Yong Sul Choi and his family, with In Sun Seo and his family and probably would have seen the same thing with Joo Bang Lee and HIS family (if there had not been a falling out between Dad and son). The Kempo people and the Isshin-ryu people had the same problem and even the DRAJJ despite having a written document!!

You know I don't mind Koreans playing at adopting the Japanese Ryu-ha system if thats what they want to do, However I wish they would either do it right, or not do it at all----- one of the other. These half-a$$ed attempts really screw people up, ya know? If you are going to have a family run sole-proprietary business, then OK-- tell everyone thats your intention and do it along those lines. Don't call it a "federation" or an "association" and don't apply for incorporation. Those are all very different. Don't even get me started on For-profit and Not-for-profit organizations!

On the other hand, if you DO apply for incorporation and represent oneself as a "federation" or "association", then, by-gawd, write-up your by-laws, establish your board and leadership and agree that everyone from sonny down to the janitor have a fair crack at influencing things according to their ability.

I think one of the biggest problems with many of these Korean organizations is that they use many terms inter-changeably in an effort to approximate Western institutions but without actually understanding the philosophical underpinnings. A federation is not the same as an association, and a corporation is not the same as a sole proprietorship.

Now I don't have a problem if someone wants to do things the "old-fashioned way" and I don't mind if people want to try some new organizational model. But this sitting on the fence and calling one thing by some other name and acting yet in a third fashion is a real pain in the tush!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I actually train in 3 styles of Moo Duk Kwan. I have a 4th Dan in Soo Bahk Do under GM Ivanhoe Kim, a 5th Dan under Young Ik Han in Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan for both), and a 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do (Young Ik Han).