Wheres the shaolin in USSD's shaolin kempo

[IRO-Bot]

Originally Posted by Mariachi Joe

The name came from GM Fred Villari who named his style Shaolin Kempo Karate.

He's refering to the lineage of the system, not it's name, nor how it got it.

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by Tenguru

LOL. I get your point. But that is not quite what I'm getting at

Like I said before (sort of) if David Carradine had been playing a Ninja, then Villari's art would have been called Ninjitsu Kempo Karate.

[Mariachi Joe]

The story in the ussd handbook is that the Shaolin arts were taken to Okinawa were the Mitose family learned it and in the 1940's James Mitose took the art to Hawaii and taught William Chow, who taught Nick Cerio, who taught Mattera and that is the lineage to the Shaolin Temple according to the ussd handbook I was given.

[almost a ghost]

Originally Posted by Mariachi Joe

The story in the ussd handbook is that the Shaolin arts were taken to Okinawa were the Mitose family learned it and in the 1940's James Mitose took the art to Hawaii and taught William Chow, who taught Nick Cerio, who taught Mattera and that is the lineage to the Shaolin Temple according to the ussd handbook I was given.

How long ago did you get your manual, because mine says that and I got it 13 years ago?

[Mariachi Joe]

last year, but it's dated since it has Mattera listed as 9th dan.

[Hand Sword]

In reference to this thread, let's be mindful of a few things. Everyone of us follows a style. ALL of those styles had a founder, or founders. They created something, based on their interpretations, likes, dislikes, tendencies, etc... They all gave what they did a name, which was their right to do, from which ALL of the styles, and systems have come from. We should all remember too, Fighting is what it is, and what it has always been, since our species' beginning. Everone has their own way or style. Now we may all disagree about how a style is marketed, but, no style is exempt from this. That's how we all know them now. As far as the Shaolin in the kempo, Fred Villari, who is the recognized founder, gave it a name, the same as everyone else did. It comes, supposedly, and we have to take his word at it, out of respect for the ways that were used to create HIS version, based on HIS, interpretation, likes, etc.. The material, as you move from green and up, if you look at it objectively, goes away from the "karate" look, taking on a more decidedly "Kung Fu" look to them. Where did Mr. Villari get the material? Books, people, or whatever, doesn't matter. There is "kung fu" in there, clearly, and if he says his sources were shaolin, so be it. In the end, He and the rest, as well as ALL OF US, did, do, and will learn a way, add to it, delete from it, change, and name what we do to represent US.

[almost a ghost]

Hand Sword, I strongly disagree with some of your view points on the subject at hand.

While anybody has the right to name the system whatever they want that they took the time to create, it doesn't make it right to name a system after something it has very little to do with. When people shrug their shoulders and say "So be it" and go on their merry way it just gives validation that it's OK to mislead people. There is nothing that dictates that we have to take his word for it.

Sure, it may be HIS system as you pointed out, but that doesn't automatically make anything he says about it's creation and material truthful. As for the material looking more "kung fu" later on really doesn't validate the stories of how they came to be in the system and where they came from. So, where's the shaolin?

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by Mariachi Joe

The story in the ussd handbook is that the Shaolin arts were taken to Okinawa were the Mitose family learned it and in the 1940's James Mitose took the art to Hawaii and taught William Chow, who taught Nick Cerio, who taught Mattera and that is the lineage to the Shaolin Temple according to the ussd handbook I was given.

Yikes!

First off, there is no proof that Mitose studied anything while he was in Japan (even his going to Japan is up for debate, but is pretty well established). There's every possibility that he learned all of his stuff in Hawaii. He taught some things to Prof. Chow, but was hardly Chow's only instructor. Chow taught Adriano Emperado, who in turn taught John Leoning. For a some time Leoning taught Victor "Sonny" Gascon who broke off and started Karazenpo Go Shinzitsu in 1958. One of Gascon's students was George Pesare who moved to Rhode Island and started teaching what he learned from Gascon mixed with TKD and other things he studied as well. One of Pesare's black belts was Nick Cerio who started teaching on his own at some point. One of Cerio's black belts was Fred Villari. Villari got to 2nd degree under Cerio and then broke off to start his own thing that he called Shaolin Kempo Karate. One of Villari's students was Charles Mattera who stayed with Villari up to 7th degree and then broke off to start his version of the USSD in 1988. Mattera got back in touch with Cerio to gain rank from him and did so. The union was brief, and I'm not qualified to say why they broke ties with one another, but have heard some interesting stories about it that I think are true. Then, some time after Cerio died, MAttera put back the link in his history and claims that his lineage goes from Chow to Cerio to him.

Whatever.

[Mariachi Joe]

I agree, if Mitose is the missing "link" between the Shaolin monks of old and Shaolin Kempo Karate then it's a pretty weak link at best.

[MJS]

Thread moved to Horror Stories

MJS
MT Supermod

[Hand Sword]

Originally Posted by almost a ghost

Hand Sword, I strongly disagree with some of your view points on the subject at hand.

While anybody has the right to name the system whatever they want that they took the time to create, it doesn't make it right to name a system after something it has very little to do with. When people shrug their shoulders and say "So be it" and go on their merry way it just gives validation that it's OK to mislead people. There is nothing that dictates that we have to take his word for it.

Sure, it may be HIS system as you pointed out, but that doesn't automatically make anything he says about it's creation and material truthful. As for the material looking more "kung fu" later on really doesn't validate the stories of how they came to be in the system and where they came from. So, where's the shaolin?

Where did I say that it made it right? What are you strongly disagreeing with? You agreed that he can name his system what he wanted, being the founder. As for taking his word, what choice is there. Were any of us there with him, Sharing his personal experiences? Inside his mind? Bottom line is : there is kung fu in there, he got it from somewhere, and if he says he got it from shaolin sources, oh well. You are still agreeing that the kung fu is in there, as I said, So, again, where's the disagreement?. You question how it got there, Again, only Mr. Villari knows. Look, bottom line, SKK as a system exists, like it or not, There is a founder, and only he can tell what gave birth to it, believe him or not. Other than that what do you disagree strongly with my post?

[Lisa]

Moderator Note:

This matter has been talked to death over and over again and therefore this thread is being closed.

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We have left one thread open regarding USSD, however, any libelous comments will be removed and Infraction points given and/or those involved removed from the board.

Thanks for your cooperation, folks.

Lisa Deneka
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