Seishin teki kyoyo

[Senin]

I wonder how current students of ninjutsu see Seishinteki kyoyo. How is it practiced or obtained in modern ninjutsu studies?

Or is it even practiced?

[Cryozombie]

Originally Posted by Senin

I wonder how current students of ninjutsu see Seishinteki kyoyo. How is it practiced or obtained in modern ninjutsu studies?

Or is it even practiced?

Call me stupid... but what is that exactly?

The whole harmony with nature by understanding your place in the universe thing?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I asked the same thing to an instructor about four years ago. He replied "so you think I'm being rude, arrogant and obnoxious?"

...refinement of one's spirit is known in Japanese as seishinteki kyoyo.

http://www.genbukan.org/Amatsu_Tatar...genbukan2.html

[heretic888]

Originally Posted by Nimravus

I asked the same thing to an instructor about four years ago. He replied "so you think I'm being rude, arrogant and obnoxious?"

Nice!

[Shizen Shigoku]

chi haya buru kami no oshie wa tokoshie ni tadashikii kokoro mi o mamoruran

- loose translation -

"Be a good person and you'll make less enemies."

[Cryozombie]

Originally Posted by Nimravus

I asked the same thing to an instructor about four years ago. He replied "so you think I'm being rude, arrogant and obnoxious?"

That seems like a very zen answer, especially considering I dont know what it means.

[Senin]

Based on this, would it be safe to assume that the spiritual, mental aspects aren't stressed quite as much as, say the fighting skills, for example?

How much meditation is involved in modern day ninjutsu?

Thanks for the responses.

[kakuma]

Hatsumi Sensei has said on several occasions that training is a form meditation. Therefore, the buddhist aspects of meditation are unnecessary.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Originally Posted by Technopunk

That seems like a very zen answer, especially considering I dont know what it means.

Well, the guy in question was the same one who once grabbed a guy by his hair and belt and threw him head first into the wall for being a jerk to the people he trained with...on the other hand, his shuto is also the reason a friend of mine is no longer able to tilt her head as far to the left as she used to be able to.
Besides, he's into ARMA nowadays.

Anyway, my experience is that those who talk a lot about spiritual refinement and enlightenment are usually those who have understood it the least.

[heretic888]

The following is from a post by Ben Cole pertaining to the subject:

Originally Posted by Ben Cole

ON MEDITATION

Some teachers teach meditation to their students, but this is usually something they acquired from elsewhere. Soke does not teach meditation nor encourage it. "Just do Budo," he says, "and it will all come together."

Budo is moving meditation. In time, you gain the state of "no-mind," which is what people are sitting on their butts trying to achieve. In time, you also gain "ki" (for those of you who believe in it), which allows you to use "kiai" (true kiai, not the grunting of a base Karateka) and "kihaku." Both kiai and kihaku are part of Soke's teachings, but you still don't see people running around in class kiai-ing all the time. Why? Because that is a crass way to learn this stuff. If you just do Budo, everything else will come....

A true kiai should feel natural. It just kinda comes out. People may feel uncomfortable when it happens (thinking others might believe they are trying to make Taijutsu into Karate), but a truly skilled teacher will recognize the kiai (if it is natural) for what it is. I personally think it is a step in one's evolution as a martial artist.

Having kiai just naturally come out can be a dangerous thing though. So over time, you need to learn to control them. You don't want to risk having them come out at the wrong time. This is no different than learning to turn your "shinkengata" on and off. One second you are standing there talking with a friend, the next second you are in a fight. And then, as soon as the fight is over, you need to be able to "turn it off."

This type of training is very important. That is why I think it is important to NOT train an entire session "turned on." You cannot live life being "on" the entire time. You will frighten people around you. Instead, you need to be "invisible"--only "turning on" when you need to make a point (frighten away an attacker, reach a large audience during a speech, etc.)

During training, you need to train intensely during the time with your partner, then turn immediately carefree when your teacher is showing a technique or speaking. In fact, I think it is important for a teacher to break the intensity of the paired students by talking, telling stories, explaining things, telling jokes, whatever. People tend to get too "wound up" thinking, "If I don't train intensely, I will never get good." In fact, if you always train intensely, you will NEVER get good in my opinion.

A teacher who interrupts class, just when you are "getting into the technique" is not a bad teacher. In fact, it is a sign of a very good teacher who is trying to teach you a skill set without you knowing it.

If you train properly, these skills of kiai and shinkengata will begin to manifest. No need to do anything more than that.

-ben

The entire discussion thread can be found here.

Laterz

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

My usual response to that kind of thinking is another question - do we know for a fact that anyone has actually wound up being a proficient taijutsu exponent by training the way it is usually done in Honbu these days? Especially, during the warring states period? This is not intended as an attack on said gentleman or his opinions, just something I've been contemplating for a long time. I'm not saying you SHOULD walk around feeling like Duke Nukem all the time, but it has been said here before - if you sacrifice basics for the sake of flow, you will not become skilled at any of them.

[Senin]

Wow. I find it ironic that the first pillar, Seishin Teki Kyoko, of the Togakure-ryû school of ninjutsu is virtually unheard of here. It is as if it doesn't exist. Then i find troubling the theory of.... just do good practice and it will come. It is not a sub-section of taijutsu. It is actually the FIRST of the basics 18 skills. Do you mean that it is not really practiced?

[heretic888]

I have some counter-questions for you, Senin:

Do you think people are only doing kiai when they're shouting?

Is a Zen monk only learning mushin when he's practicing zazen?

Are you only practicing martial arts when you're fighting??

Things aren't black and white.

[Senin]

Nope.

And questions for you:

Can a boxer learn to box by only meditating?
Can a swordsman learn the sword by only contemplating it?

Since Seishin teki kyoyo is such a pillar of the art, if it is not openly taught, I can't help but think that this is one aspect that Soke is holding a bit back on. After all, I am sure that we call all agree that Soke is not totally forthcoming on all aspects of his art with absolutely everyone. Bits are being reserved.