Bujinkan v. Genbukan?

[Chris Parker]

Well, yes, but a few things need to be understood. In a high stress/high adrenaline situation, the higher functions of your brain will simply shut down, leaving only the more survival-orientated functions to be utilised. The functions lost include the ability to form complex sentences, and perform complicated techniques (without a huge amount of repetitive training with the correct approach). Another thing it will do is shut down your conscious minds ability to critique and make decisions the way you can do right now (as you read this).

A few threads recently have given very good examples of this, one (The Destroyer Style) speaks very strongly to this at the end. The stories of a number of incidents where the ability to consciously make decisions cost people's lives, as they followed procedure designed to make cleanup in a shooting gallery easier.

So if you think you will be able to consciously "choose" what techniques/tactics you will employ, or whether your BJJ is the best, or Tae Kwon Do, or Aikido, realise that that very decision-making ability will be one of the first things you will lose. That leaves us wondering, in a lot of cases, what will come out? If we train in a variety of arts, each with their own different power source, movement style, strategic base, tactical approach, and more, which will come out? Well, that will be the one that you unconsciously beileve is the most powerful.

I'll say that again. It will be the one that you unconsciously believe will be the most powerful.

And that will have nothing to do with what you rationally, consciously, logically think or believe it is. It is, instead, whichever your unconscious believes. Now, the unconscious mind is an interesting place. It is the storage place for every experience you have ever had, as well as where your beliefs, values, and behaviours come from (you act the way you do because of your unconscious mind, not due to any conscious decision. This is what we refer to as our "personalities"). By and large, the values and beliefs that determine our behaviours are pretty much set by the time we are 7 years old, with a bit of tweaking until we are about 15 or 16. The only ways to change this after that are traumatic experiences (hence the term "life-changing" experience), or therapy (usually quite intense). The only other variant to this is if there was no previous value installed, in other words, if you have no experience at something, and no experience to relate it to, then a new value and belief can be created from a new experience.

Training can be traumatic, but really falls under the category here of "therapy". It is therapy because it is an undertaking to alter your behaviours, which is achieved by giving new experiences to "replace" previous beliefs and values, which then give you your new behaviours. But the experience needs to be powerful enough to replace any previously existing beliefs. I'll explain.

Say you saw a movie when you were young. Let's call it The Karate Kid... In this (hypothetical!) movie, there was a protagonist who has distinct disadvantages, he is smaller than the other kids, has less ability, and is constantly bullied and beat up. He discovers a local martial art master, who teaches him (in a rather unorthodox, and honestly ineffective way, only giving physical movements without the necessary context and appropriate mindset for the actions to be utilised... but I digress...) the skills of a particular martial art. Using this new skill, he takes on the bullies, and wins the girl, a trophy, and his self respect. And he did this using an exotic-style technique (a rather telegraphed action which announces it's intention ["I'm going to kick!"]) from this martial art.

Now let's say that you saw this film when you were quite young. In fact, this was your first real experience seeing martial arts (and relating what they are, in terms of handling violence and life's obstacles). Now the only experience you have in terms of martial arts are this film. So, with your unconscious mind being unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality, the only reference it has to create a belief about martial arts, and to give them a value, is this piece of hollywood. The belief could go a number of ways, but we'll take it as a high value experience, which means that your belief about martial arts are that they look like what you saw in the movie (they all look like karate, lot's of striking and kicking, little grappling, forward facing aggressive postures etc), this is what works, this is what is powerful, and it is the exotic, different techniques (like the single-legged crane-kick) that are needed to be successful (as a side note, if you see kids play fighting, they will often go to these "movie" poses, as they are percieved to be more powerful. They will almost never go to a boxer's pose, nor an Aikido Hanmi, nor any other. What is in the movie's are powerful...).

So a few years later, you take up a martial art. You may take up Tae Kwon Do, or Karate, as that looks like what you personally believe to be powerful... but you may not. You may take up something entirely different, such as Aikido, WIng Chun, or Ninjutsu, for conscious belief reasons. But if the training is not sufficiently designed to replace your previous beliefs, then you may find that, despite a number of years training in a completely different type of system to karate (let's say Aikido, yeah?), when you are put in a high stress/high adrenaline situation you are likely to respond with a version of the karate your unconscious mind believes to be more powerful. The conscious mind really doesn't enter into it.

But if the training is done well, or is geared in such a way to convince you that it is more powerful than the karate you have seen or trained in, then a new belief takes the place of the old one, giving new values (Aikido I have trained in is more powerful that karate from movies), and that changes your behaviours (Aikido comes out, rather than karate). This could happen a number of ways, most often the art being "proved" to you, being on the recieving end can do that.

Just remember that if you have trained in both systems over time, your unconscious mind will choose whatever it believes is the best of the different options, not switch between them. So if you trained karate when you were 6 through to 9, and had it's power instilled in you, and Aikido from 22 through to 29, but never had it sufficiently demonstrated to you that Aikido was stronger, you will probably still find the karate making an appearance under stress.

Hopefully that helps you understand the psychology behind this (and the training ideas). This is why cross-training and taking bits of this and bits of that because they "seem to work" is really actually to be discouraged, unless it is able to be congruently adapted to an existing base. Otherwise you are honestly wasting a lot of your time...

[bwindussa]

OK, I believe I get it now. I appreciate your patience, mine is a thick skull that sometimes needs repeated bashings with a simple idea.

Actually this makes more and more sense. I remember many occasions in the classroom, during intense training sessions, students (including myself) would shut down, regress to something they "learned" in their past, or start looking for a weapon instead of using the techniques they had been taught.

I remember consiously wondering about this and even mentioning it in the classroom. Something like "why is it after all these years of learning to fight unarmed every time it gets tense do I go looking for a weapon?" It got a laugh at the time but now it makes sense that at the time we unconsiously didn't believe in the power of the training. Is that correct?

Dang, I have such a long way to go. It's really too bad we don't live an extra hundred years or so, that way us slower learners would have more time to understand the "simple stuff".

Thanks for the clarification.

Brad

[Chris Parker]

The "looking for a weapon" thing is basically your unconscious recognising danger, and looking for the strongest responce possible, regardless of whether or not it is appropriate. This is how we end up with police shootings and the like, as the first instinct of the unconscious is to go to the most powerful option, and that sees officers drawing a sidearm sometimes prematurely or inappropriately. It is not a fault of theirs, just something that really should be addressed in their training (and from what I have seen is being addressed more and more, thankfully). But everytime you hear about a police officer shooting someone who "is armed only with a knife", or is mistakenly thought to be armed, or similar, realise that it is just the same mechanism in operation.

[bwindussa]

I've seen that same scenario with the police here in the US. When I was attending Utah's "police academy" we actually had several students who asked why we really needed to learn H2H and baton when we all carried guns. Not kidding. That was back in the mid 1980's and i sincerely hope we have higher standards for officers now.

Getting sort of back on topic though, why is it that the x-kans are mutually exclusive? Why would one club not allow one to train if you were a member of another group?

[Chris Parker]

Well, the short version would be "That is what the heads of the various organisations decided".

Essentially, each different organisation teaches the same thing in different ways, so to be training in both the Bujinkan and the Genbukan (for example) you would be essentially saying to each teacher "I don't believe you are teaching me everything I would need to know" (from a Japanese perspective). It's really a question of respect for your teacher/chosen organisation and the respective head of that group (Hatsumi Sensei, Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei). If you truly have faith in your teacher, then there is no reason to go to another.

[Bruno@MT]

Part of the reason we are not allowed to crosstrain is no doubt political. But the other reason is that each organization has a very different approach to learning MA, which each of the founders thinks is better than the others. Bujinkan focuses on the underlying principles and strategy. Genbukan focuses on the technical aspect, making sure that for each test / grade, you know a certain amount of tehniques, and you know them very well. Jinenkan focuses on the basics until they are ingrained for good.

So while the systems of each org are made up of similar ryuha, they have different ways of teaching said system, and different ways of running their organization. And each of the founders probably wants their students to learn the art the way they think is best, and not the way 'the other one' thinks is best. And as Chris said, if you look at it from a Japanese perspective, then training the same art under another sensei is like saying 'I don't think that you can teach me everything I need to know'. And that is also why cross training in a -different- art is not a big issue.

[bwindussa]

So you're not losing information by choosing one? That would be a concern. I guess another would be which one works best with one's personal philosophy and desires.

[Chris Parker]

For that I would refer you to the first page of this thread... but to add to it, the most number of schools/systems, therefore the largest technical curriculuum, belong to the Genbukan/KJJR (Kokusei Jujutsu Renmei), followed by the Bujinkan (with a much smaller emphasis on such things), then the Jinenkan after the others. Each has their benefits, for example systems such as Bokuden Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Tenshin Koryu will be taught in the KJJR, although Hatsumi Sensei learnt these systems and brings them out from time to time. And the Jinenkan has the Jinen Ryu, created by Manaka Sensei, primarily based on weaponry, specifically sword, two sword, and Jutte.

[Bruno@MT]

Personally (I am in Genbukan) I don't worry about how many schools there are in my system or which organization teaches which details. The contents of each system are similar and cover many the same things. They just go about teaching in different ways.

Also, the fact that Genbukan allows you to learn traditional schools, and allows you to receive licensure in the traditional ways is a moot point for most people. Most people will never get to the point where they are allowed to test for those licenses, since you have to be 3d dan (that will take about12 to 16 years) before you can request to study a specific school beyond the basics that are taught at taikai.

Rather, make a choice for the system that 'feels' right to you.
For me personally, I like the Genbukan way of doing things. It is very structured and I think it is most suitable for me. It also enables me to study jujutsu under the same sensei, which is what drew me to Genbukan in the first place.

[bwindussa]

Wow, a LOT has indeed changed since I was last training. I feel like Rip VanWinkle. Thanks for all the great info!

Brad

[Chris Parker]

For a final point, I would recommend looking to the quote from Kyoshi Troy Wideman in Bruno's signature. That says it better than most.

[Hudson69]

Originally Posted by Chris Parker

You are forgiven...

No, it is not a case of "just using whatever techniques work in a situation". It is a matter of adapting the principles of the art to a situation. And the principles of the art, it's guiding philosophy, will proclude you from a number of techniques, for example roundhouse kicks and axe kicks go against the principles of Ninjutsu. However, they work perfectly for Tae kwon Do. In that art, though, Ninjutsu's postures are all wrong.

The point here is that the underlying principles, or the guiding philosophy of an art, give it it tactics, strategies, power source, and more. You just can't use an Aikido power source and expect it to be effective with a Tae Kwon Do attack, and vice versa. I once had a "discussion" with a person (who trained in a bogus ninjutsu school here in Melbourne) who was telling me that roundhouse kicks and three-sectional staves were perfectly fine to use in ninjutsu because ninjutsu is whatever a ninja uses... kinda missed the point on that one. A ninja is not just a guy in black pajamas and a hood, you know...

And Hudson69, provided you could congruently combine the different techniques under one principle, then yes, you could get benefits out of cross training the way you say. However, most people cross train as they believe they have a lack in one or more areas in their current training, so they go to a very different type of school to cover that gap. And that honestly just doesn't work. MMA training, for example, I have said a number of times is not really "Mixed" Martial Art training. It is a single system with a single guiding philosophy which works with multiple ranges, which grew out of disparate arts.

If you have managed (as MMA coaches have) to bring everything together congruently, then it can work. But you will find that you are not really using multiple arts, when it comes down to it, you are using a base system (probably Kempo for yourself, although not necessarily) as your guide, and simply adapting the other techniques to that first arts concepts. So bringing in ideas from other arts is not in itself bad, provided you can make it work in your original art. As said, a spinning tornado kick won't work within Ninjutsu, but groundwork (adapted from BJJ or similar) can.

The reason I say you will adapt it to a single art which may or may not be Kempo for you, is that the art you will naturally go to in a high stress or high adrenalin situation will be the one you unconsciously believe is the strongest, and that may or may not be the one you have spent the most time training in. It could be the one that most closely resembles what you see as powerful (say, from movies), or could be an art you haven't studied for years or more, but you had a very powerful experience in which has never left you. Hope this has made sense...

I think it is less of adapting (other arts techniques) to a single art than it is adapting miscelaneous techiniques from various systems based off of a personal preference. If you or I just jive with the mental/philosophical/physical aspects from one system or have a lop-sided amount of time in one system I think it might cause us to look at new techniques through EPAK or Ninpo colored glasses but for the most part I think that it is based more off of who you are and what you are comfortable with along with your ability to perform a technique in the situation presented. For those persons dedicated to one school/system they have nothing to compare anything too unless seeing a foreign systems technique they can see similarities or break down the mechanics into their systems movements.

my opinion only and I am tired (almost off shift) so this might not flow so no chip on my shoulder, just my .02.

[Chris Parker]

The problem there is that you are phrasing everything around it being a conscious decision, and that is not what you are actually dealing with. That's why I was talking about your unconscious beliefs as to what is powerful in a martial art, and that is not necessarily what you are most experienced in. You may just jive with things consciously, but under pressure, that may or may not be what comes out.

Essentially, it needs to "jive" with your unconscious beliefs in this regard, not your conscious understanding or preference. Ideally, it will be your "prefered" system, but not always. And "a bit of this and a bit of that" approach to cross training is of no use without that base for it to work off of. But forget the idea of this being anything to do with conscious decision making, because that is one of the first things to go under pressure.

[Kajowaraku]

Personally, I enjoy cross-training because it allows me to test and refine my taijutsu in new circumstances, and against people trained in different ways of doing things. Obviously the intention shouldbe made clear to the other party from the start. To give just one example: joining a judoclub for a few trainingsessions to see what and where you need to step up your training can be a good way of revealing your weak points. Obviously this is not something to be done too often, and certainly not something to be done when still unexperienced, or you'll end up confused and your MA will be weaker for it. Basicly what it can do for the more experienced (read: rooted in his art) practioner, is to force you to apply your art in situations you cannot really simulate in training. What i mean is this:

You often get instructors giving the narrative of "what to do when attacked by a person of a specific martial art (let's use tae kwon do for an example). you get the following:

The teachers invites his uke to attack him with a "taekwondo kick". Usually the uke will not be properly trained in typical taekwondo kicks, so the resulting kick will almost always be sloppy, probably reinforced by prejudice on account of the uke too (who probably thinks taekwondo is less effective as his own art (or i guess he'd be doing TKD)). Teacher executes countertechnque. After demonstration and explaination, students start to practice this. However, chances are really high most of them are clueless on how to properly deliver a roundhousekick or an axekick (since it's not ninpo, as Chris pointed out).

Obviously, training this way doesn't really give you any meaningful preparation in dealing with a person that has actually trained in TKD. A practioner of TKD can kick fast, alternate the directions of his attacks rapidly, dashes about and can usually deliver quite an impact with a kick too. So, if you really want to see what your art can do for you in such circumstances, train with a real TKDka, and you'll get a much better idea.

clearly, it's just an example, and the same goes for any other other martial art, like Judo, karate or whatever. Point is, it creates opportunities to rediscover your own art, and find ways to adapt it to different circumstances. Clearly, if you're going to do this, you shouldn't go on pretext you're interested in learning the MA you're shamelesly using to further your ninpo training . Truth and honesty matter.