Etiquette Question

[Golden Crane]

Howdy, all...

Just had a quick question about obis and rank - especially when it pertains to training in a new style or dojo: If you are a black belt in say, Shotokan or TKD, what should you do with your obi if you decide to step on the mat in a Goju-ryu class? I was taught that the practitioner should either:

1. wear their current rank but line up in the back of the class
2. turn their obi knot to the back and line up in the back of the class
3. ditch the obi altogether and line up in the back of the class or
4. don a white belt and line up accordingly.

We had a situation last night when a young woman who is about to test for nidan in Shorin-Ryu (a Japanese style that is a close cousin of Goju-Ryu) - but who has been coming to our class gi-less for about a month or so - showed up to class in her Shorin-Ryu gi and black belt. She was allowed to line up directly behind the class shodans, which put her in front of some second and first kyus who have been training with sensei for 4-5 years or more. I got there just as we were falling in, so I'm not sure if she just showed up in gi and sensei, out of respect for her rank, just told her to fall in up front or what, but shouldn't she have deferred and respectfully lined up near the rear?

At my sister dojo, a similar thing happened a while back: two students showed up in black belts from other styles (Brazilian Jujitsu and Kung Fu), but lined up in back without incident. After about a month, the seipai pulled them aside and asked them to please start wearing their white belts to class. They've done so ever since...

In the Tuesday night class, I am the seipai - although I earned my shodan rank only five months ago. Should I pull her aside or is this something I should speak with my sensei about first? I'm trying to do this the right way - and as respectfully as possible.

Domo arigato gozaimasu ,

Felicia

[Bill Mattocks]

I believe it is up to the sensei.

I wore my orange belt given in Michigan (Isshinryu) when I was visiting a dojo in North Carolina (also Isshinryu), but with the permission of the sensei in North Carolina. If he had asked me to put on a white belt, I would gladly have done so.

My current dojo has some students who recently transferred in from another school, also Isshinryu. They wear the belts they earned at their previous dojo.

We also have some students who came from other styles. They wear a white belt on our floor.

I do not question my sensei about it in any case. If he wants to make a change, he will. I ask permission to wear my belt if I step on the floor of another dojo, but I do not otherwise concern myself.

[KELLYG]

My personal opinion this should be address with the Sensei. If it were me cross training in class I would expect to wear a white belt till such time it was suggested by Sensei to do otherwise. I, as an instructor would let the other students that even though this person is a white belt, they are experienced.

[jks9199]

It depends on context, too.

If you're starting training at that school, you should discuss it with the head instructor. In my class, you'll probably be asked to wear a white belt as a new student.

If you're simply visiting because you're in the area and curious about the style, or school, you probably should introduce yourself to the instructors before class, and get their guidance on where to line up if you're going to train.

[shesulsa]

If you are given charge of this student, then discuss this with your sensei privately first. If you're not, then leave it alone unless she approaches you and you have reason to glean from her comments (not others) that she has not had discussion with her sensei.

I personally would don a white belt if I were to begin training in an additional style.

As JKS pointed out, context is important. It sounds like your school is quite traditional - given that, my very best advice is in the first paragraph above.

[Stac3y]

When I've visited classes at other schools, I've worn my current rank belt and uniform, but lined up with the white belts unless instructed to do otherwise. Since the uniform is different, it's evident that my rank was obtained in a different style. If asked, I would put on a white belt, but it hasn't come up.

[chrispillertkd]

Originally Posted by Golden Crane

Howdy, all...

Just had a quick question about obis and rank - especially when it pertains to training in a new style or dojo: If you are a black belt in say, Shotokan or TKD, what should you do with your obi if you decide to step on the mat in a Goju-ryu class? I was taught that the practitioner should either:

1. wear their current rank but line up in the back of the class
2. turn their obi knot to the back and line up in the back of the class
3. ditch the obi altogether and line up in the back of the class or
4. don a white belt and line up accordingly.

We had a situation last night when a young woman who is about to test for nidan in Shorin-Ryu (a Japanese style that is a close cousin of Goju-Ryu) - but who has been coming to our class gi-less for about a month or so - showed up to class in her Shorin-Ryu gi and black belt. She was allowed to line up directly behind the class shodans, which put her in front of some second and first kyus who have been training with sensei for 4-5 years or more. I got there just as we were falling in, so I'm not sure if she just showed up in gi and sensei, out of respect for her rank, just told her to fall in up front or what, but shouldn't she have deferred and respectfully lined up near the rear?

Well, in your dojo you follow what your sensei says.

You did say, however, she had been coming to your class for a month. Do you mea she is a student and training at your school as well as in Shorin Ryu? If this is the case then she definitely should have lined up in her normal position (which, from yor description, I assume is in the back with the rest of the beginners). If she is a student and showed up in the uniform of a different style it shouldn't have even gotten to the point where the sensei had to address things; a senior student should have informed her that it was inappropriate since she wasn't there for a lesson in Shorin Ryu and she should've changed.

On the other hand, if she is just "visiting" your school (although a month seems a long time) then it's not such a big deal. Might be better if she had continued to wear sweats or a white belt, IMHO.

At my sister dojo, a similar thing happened a while back: two students showed up in black belts from other styles (Brazilian Jujitsu and Kung Fu), but lined up in back without incident. After about a month, the seipai pulled them aside and asked them to please start wearing their white belts to class. They've done so ever since...

My only questions are 1) why in the world did it take a month for him to ask them to do this and 2) why would they wear their rank from a different style n the first place when they are presumably training for rank in a new style?

I'm glad they began to wear white belts but I have to question why someone who has spent the time getting a dan rank in one martial art needs to be told to wear a white belt sine they are, in fact, beginners in a new martial art. Have things really changed that much since I was a white belt?

In the Tuesday night class, I am the seipai - although I earned my shodan rank only five months ago. Should I pull her aside or is this something I should speak with my sensei about first? I'm trying to do this the right way - and as respectfully as possible.

Domo arigato gozaimasu ,

Felicia

Serreptitiously ask your sensei what he desires in this situation. Do it out ofear shot of other students and then, if he wants the Shorin Ryu blck belt to wear a white belt tell her so in private. Courteous behavior will help everyone to avoid feeling uncomfortable or belittled.

Pax,

Chris

[Golden Crane]

Thanks for your input, everyone. I guess I didn't make it clear in the initial post, but the class takes place once a week at a local college where I teach and is a satellite of our dojo in town. The shorin-ryu student is a student at the college. She trains with us because she cannot train at home (I'm assuming it is too far). But since she studies another Japanese style and is about to present for nidan, she should know the rules of etiquette and should have lined up accordingly - unlike the Kung Fu and BJJ students I mentioned from the other class. In that situation, a different sensei was trying to respectfully give them time to figure it out. When they didn't, his "number 1" spoke to them privately and explained that, although their belts/rank were respected, since they were studying a new style, they'd need to start "at the bottom" and strap on white belts.

But unlike Ms. Shorin-ryu (not being disrespectful, just out of adjectives to describe her, LOL), they did line up in the back of the class. She did as well - when dressed in her usual sweats and t-shirt - but when she wore her white gi (ours are black) a few nights ago for the first time, she fell in near the front.

Interestingly, a Shotokan student - who teaches at the college and who has been attending for as long as Ms. Shorin-ryu has - wore his gi for the first time Tuesday night, as well. He went belt-less and lined up dead last, though. Hmmm...

Again, since I got there just as we were falling in, I don't know what conversation happened between them and Sensei before I arrived and I didn't even realize what was going on until we were warming up and preparing for kihon...

I think I need to address this with my sensei...

[Carol]

Originally Posted by Golden Crane

But since she studies another Japanese style and is about to present for nidan, she should know the rules of etiquette and should have lined up accordingly - unlike the Kung Fu and BJJ students I mentioned from the other class. In that situation, a different sensei was trying to respectfully give them time to figure it out.

Welcome to MartialTalk Golden Crane.

I have to admit I don't have a very favorably opinion about this situation. Before add details, I'm going to ask your forgiveness for being direct. I am not trying to be hurtful to you or your system, but I am terrible at tact so I am afraid this may sound harsher than it was intended.

Perhaps it is because I am not in the Japanese/traditional arts, but I find this mindset to be troubling. Personally I do my best to manage other people's expectations, because I insist that mine be managed as well. To not say anything to a student regarding local etiquette and standards is one thing, to be miffed when someone doesn't follow instructions that were never communicated is quite another.

That doesn't read to me as respect, instead it reads to me as an instructor trying shirk responsibility from a possibly awkward conversation. If an instructor doesn't bring something up in conversation, that to me means that it is not worth their time to mention it. If something is not worth their time, then should it really be worth mine?

[sfs982000]

During my most recent visit to another dojang, I address the instructor before hand about my experience and I just wore my dobok bottoms and a plain white shirt with no belt and lined up with the other white belt students. I've had other experiences with other schools where they allowed me to wear my rank and line up with my equivilent rank, which honestly made me feel uncomfortable since I was just visiting.

[Tensei85]

How about this: Everyone should quit all Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Brazilian & American ranking system martial arts & start taking Chinese Martial Arts & not have a belt to worry about at all. ; )~
Makes things so much easier, but then again at my Kwoon/Dojo half of us are struggling just to line up on a normal class so maybe that's still not the best option...


By the way I'm just kidding about all thee above statements please do not take anything I've just said seriously.

All the best,

[Phoenix44]

When I start a new style, I expect to wear a white belt.

If I'm just visiting, I'd probably ask the instructor, but in my experience, I'd be wearing my black belt.

[jks9199]

Originally Posted by Golden Crane

Thanks for your input, everyone. I guess I didn't make it clear in the initial post, but the class takes place once a week at a local college where I teach and is a satellite of our dojo in town. The shorin-ryu student is a student at the college. She trains with us because she cannot train at home (I'm assuming it is too far). But since she studies another Japanese style and is about to present for nidan, she should know the rules of etiquette and should have lined up accordingly - unlike the Kung Fu and BJJ students I mentioned from the other class. In that situation, a different sensei was trying to respectfully give them time to figure it out. When they didn't, his "number 1" spoke to them privately and explained that, although their belts/rank were respected, since they were studying a new style, they'd need to start "at the bottom" and strap on white belts.

But unlike Ms. Shorin-ryu (not being disrespectful, just out of adjectives to describe her, LOL), they did line up in the back of the class. She did as well - when dressed in her usual sweats and t-shirt - but when she wore her white gi (ours are black) a few nights ago for the first time, she fell in near the front.

Interestingly, a Shotokan student - who teaches at the college and who has been attending for as long as Ms. Shorin-ryu has - wore his gi for the first time Tuesday night, as well. He went belt-less and lined up dead last, though. Hmmm...

Again, since I got there just as we were falling in, I don't know what conversation happened between them and Sensei before I arrived and I didn't even realize what was going on until we were warming up and preparing for kihon...

I think I need to address this with my sensei...

There's something about etiquette in dojos that's important to understand...

Quite often, the "etiquette that everyone should know" is really local practice, or even simply something that was made up to justify doing something a certain way. You might invest in Dave Lowry's book, In The Dojo to gain insight into some of this. And remember that we in the West often grossly misunderstand Japanese customs...

[Rich Parsons]

Originally Posted by Golden Crane

Howdy, all...

Just had a quick question about obis and rank - especially when it pertains to training in a new style or dojo: If you are a black belt in say, Shotokan or TKD, what should you do with your obi if you decide to step on the mat in a Goju-ryu class? I was taught that the practitioner should either:

1. wear their current rank but line up in the back of the class
2. turn their obi knot to the back and line up in the back of the class
3. ditch the obi altogether and line up in the back of the class or
4. don a white belt and line up accordingly.

We had a situation last night when a young woman who is about to test for nidan in Shorin-Ryu (a Japanese style that is a close cousin of Goju-Ryu) - but who has been coming to our class gi-less for about a month or so - showed up to class in her Shorin-Ryu gi and black belt. She was allowed to line up directly behind the class shodans, which put her in front of some second and first kyus who have been training with sensei for 4-5 years or more. I got there just as we were falling in, so I'm not sure if she just showed up in gi and sensei, out of respect for her rank, just told her to fall in up front or what, but shouldn't she have deferred and respectfully lined up near the rear?

At my sister dojo, a similar thing happened a while back: two students showed up in black belts from other styles (Brazilian Jujitsu and Kung Fu), but lined up in back without incident. After about a month, the seipai pulled them aside and asked them to please start wearing their white belts to class. They've done so ever since...

In the Tuesday night class, I am the seipai - although I earned my shodan rank only five months ago. Should I pull her aside or is this something I should speak with my sensei about first? I'm trying to do this the right way - and as respectfully as possible.

Domo arigato gozaimasu ,

Felicia

Felicia,

Not having been there I am not sure of all the details, but I can relay what has happened to me a couple of times.

While training as a colored belt in one of the systems I now teach, I went with a friend to an "open" work out in an art he had trained in years before and the senior instructor wanted him to come back and finish his black belt. So, I lined up with my Blue belt and Red pants and White top at the end behind even those with no rank but were "normal" students. Everyone else was wearing white tops and bottoms.

The 4th Dan starting the teaching, turned around to face the class and then called for attention, as well as saying people were out of line. While the Black belts tried to figure out "who" was out of line, I realized it was me as he was looking at me. So, Moved to the end of the Yellow Belts as my rank was an early color in that system, and did not want to be "senior" to those who would be traditional students of the art. That was not good enough, as I then had to move up to be with the rest of the Blue Belts. Anger followed, one for being so lame and not knowing where to line up and two for not knowing the techniques by the Korean Names as they were called out. When someone actually talked to me (* Note the Senior (above the 4th) knew who I was but had taken my friend off to work with him personally *) I explained where I had trained why I was there, and where my rank lined up with their system. So I was moved back with the White belts to learn begining moves. When it came to one steps, three steps and sparring I was moved up, but that is a different story.

Another event was, me being invited to a Japanese Ju Jitsu class but the person who invited me did not show up, so I was getting changed back into street clothes when the senior black belt told me to join the club out on the floor. I put on a white belt even though I had a black belt. This caused problems as well, as some wanted to show me what it felt like to be knocked out by choke, to test me. When I countered and reveresed there were lots of unhappy people. The isntructor had not seen it and was confused when I stood up and asked to be excused.


My point is, unless every one is on the same page and knows what the other person has trained in and where they are to line up confusion occurs. Different arts have different ways of handling the issue, and even with in the same art people will react and do different things.

I would ask the instructor, what happened, not to complain but so you can use it as a learning moment (* Tell them this *) so you know what to do if something like this happens again.


Good Luck

[Becca]

This actually relates directly to me funnily enough! I'm a qualified instructor in Wonhwado and I've just started TKD. I wear my dobok bottoms (Having asked permission to do so) and line up at the back of the class with the rest of the white belts. It's only fair I think because I am a white belt in this style