NICE martial artists wear skirts!

[Jenna]

Originally Posted by Flea

Thanks, Xue.

I'd love to hear other women's perspectives on this, but here's my own: femininity is a code of behavior based largely on what Nice Girls do and don't (hence the title of the thread.) I'm not saying that I agree with the code, but it's still very deeply ingrained.

Nice girls:

Are loyal to their friends and loved ones, even if it's not always healthy to be so
Comply with social expectations - they earn good grades, listen to their parents, and generally follow The Rules
And most relevant to this conversation ...
Avoid conflict whenever possible (easy to take to an unhealthy level when it's bred into you from infancy)

I won't bother with the Nice Girls Dont list. It's pretty straightforward. Nice Girls don't make waves would top that one, redundant to the above.

So given the above, I find that I'm unconsciously drawing these corrollaries:

Female = nice
skirt = female
skirt = extra strong reminder to be nice

It's frustrating as hell., and embarrassing to be held captive mentally by something so trivial.

It would be an interesting to find a male equivalent to this. If you wanted to try this experiment yourself, Xue, maybe you could join a quilting circle? No dress required. Having quilted myself for a while, I can promise you it would be an eye opener.

I'm reminded also of another dear friend of mine who'd have a unique perspective after seeing both sides of the gender fence first-hand. She's transsexual, and after making unimaginable sacrifices (even beyond the medical ones) to get where she is, a skirt is the ultimate statement of strength. It's a badge of honor for her, and she never wears pants now. I should run this by her - she'd love to chew on it.

Thanks for the thought-provoking questions. I hope my response is coherent; I'm spitting it out between calls at work.

Flea, I think nice is one thing and but I think the cleverest women adopt niceness as part of their repertoire. I do not mean being calculating, rather being in control of every personal situation instead of being controlled by our wardrobe. I think niceness is not something girls are born with any more than boys. I think it is learned both environmentally (from media and clever marketing) and from peers and adults.

I have to say I think it is a shame that any woman is bound by an unwritten code. I am not saying we all need be Emmeline Pankhurst and but strictly social mores - if they hinder us - we should not abide by them. And but you are correct, niceness can have been ingrained so much from a young age that it seems inherent. Nevertheless I think it has to be consciously overcome in the practice hall

Upbringing is a factor certainly - you mentioned that nice girls do not make waves and avoid conflict. While I think most people live by this ideal, I was raised by my dad and told as a girl to hit back if beat upon, only to hit back harder. I think rather than wanting to have me as some belligerent, my dad was keen to pedestal me as his princess as dads do and yet at the same time know that I could protect myself in order to BE his princess. And I give him credit for showing me both sides. I am nice by default, I think Though I would not be bound by niceness. I would be surprised if you were so different???

I would say also that guys are hamstrung too not by the niceness you mentioned and but by testosterone so a similar experiment for men would be diametric I think - not wearing a skirt and but being forced to walk around openly with a baseball bat and trying to remain "civil" and but I am sorry to digress.

You have some very interesting empirical ideas, you are a very clever woman Those are worthy of a research paper I think! And thank you for raising these ideas
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Flea]

Originally Posted by Xue Sheng

First, me wearing a skirt was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a woman for the woman's code to apply and I'm not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Ms Flea…errr…ummm..I mean…Welcome to gender bias in America Ms Flea .

I'm on the clock right now so I'll have to come back to this conversation later. But in the meantime, I hope you don't think I was ordering you to change clothes! I was just thinking out loud about how one would turn the experiment around for a man to see things from a female perspective.

Besides, telling you what to wear wouldn't be ... dare I say it? oh, dare! ... nice.

[Stac3y]

Reading this today has suddenly struck a chord in me. I don't have the problem of being too nice in MA class; I spar hard when it's appropriate, and am not afraid of getting hit. But the "nice girl code" constrains me elsewhere, I realize; for instance, it makes my husband absolutely nuts that I will go to almost ridiculous lengths to avoid having a fight with him. I'm pretty tough at work (I'm a department manager, so I have to be) and I'm pretty tough in class and in competition, and I hold my own just fine in the outside world, but at home I'm....meek. Holy hell!

Need to give this some more thought.....weird.

[Xue Sheng]

Originally Posted by Flea

I'm on the clock right now so I'll have to come back to this conversation later. But in the meantime, I hope you don't think I was ordering you to change clothes! I was just thinking out loud about how one would turn the experiment around for a man to see things from a female perspective.

Besides, telling you what to wear wouldn't be ... dare I say it? oh, dare! ... nice.

No worries it was just an example of my strange sense of humor by changing a quote from the Pirates of the Caribbean, the Black Pearl . I saw the chance and I took it and I'd do it again to

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Well, this is a very interesting experiment, I wish you the best in the discovery it will bring and commend you for the discovery it has brought already. When we hold "street" classes, we get the students to dress in street clothes for the simple reason that the clothing worn have very real psychological ramifications (all too often we can have a tendancy to only become "Martial Artist Warrior" when dressed in the proper uniform, or "costume" as it becomes then).

Being a keen interested observer of humanity, I do have a quick question for you. You have covered your transformation well, but I am curious how your male colleagues react to the skirt. Do they treat you any differently when attacking, or are they the same as always?

Oh, and Xue, thought the Pirates reference was great. I love those moments... I like to wave to them as they pass by...

[Flea]

Being a keen interested observer of humanity, I do have a quick question for you. You have covered your transformation well, but I am curious how your male colleagues react to the skirt. Do they treat you any differently when attacking, or are they the same as always?

An excellent question, and I've been watching out for that myself. It's a little early to say yet, but they have commented that it's an extra challenge because they can't pinpoint the exact position of my legs or just what I'm doing with them. I did notice on Thursday that I got left out a disproportionate amount with an odd number of people. But it's possible that I regressed a little to my old wallflower mentality with the skirt on too, so I don't know whether it was them. I'm guessing not.

I'll bring the skirt with me today, but after last night I'm training for real rather than training for fun. So I probably won't use it this time around. The experiment is still on though.

[girlbug2]

That whole thing about the position of the opponent's legs is a difficulty of mine, without my partner wearing a skirt. My eyes are drawn to monitor the legs constantly and I leave myself open to punches all the time. I think if my opponent was wearing a long flowy skirt it would probably help me keep my eyes on their chest and use my peripheral vision for the legs like I'm supposed to.

Somehow though, I doubt I will convince anybody else to help try this little experiment .

[Rich Parsons]

Originally Posted by girlbug2

That whole thing about the position of the opponent's legs is a difficulty of mine, without my partner wearing a skirt. My eyes are drawn to monitor the legs constantly and I leave myself open to punches all the time. I think if my opponent was wearing a long flowy skirt it would probably help me keep my eyes on their chest and use my peripheral vision for the legs like I'm supposed to.

Somehow though, I doubt I will convince anybody else to help try this little experiment .

Girlbug2,

Do you do low line heel kicks or stomps? If you do then when you see their feet/legs move then react with a kick to the shins or shin area, while keeping your head up.

Once you feel you have a defense for the feet you might be able to not le them distract you as much.

Good Luck!

Thanks

[Rich Parsons]

Originally Posted by Chris Parker

Hi,

Well, this is a very interesting experiment, I wish you the best in the discovery it will bring and commend you for the discovery it has brought already. When we hold "street" classes, we get the students to dress in street clothes for the simple reason that the clothing worn have very real psychological ramifications (all too often we can have a tendancy to only become "Martial Artist Warrior" when dressed in the proper uniform, or "costume" as it becomes then).

Being a keen interested observer of humanity, I do have a quick question for you. You have covered your transformation well, but I am curious how your male colleagues react to the skirt. Do they treat you any differently when attacking, or are they the same as always?

Oh, and Xue, thought the Pirates reference was great. I love those moments... I like to wave to them as they pass by...

I have seen the same thing happen to those who are thugs from the street. While they have their favortie boots or shoes and their special jacket they are in combat mode, but take them out of them and they change in how the act and treat others.

Watching people is good for self defense and for entertainment.

[Grendel308]

Hi Flea,
Well I will weigh in on this one on two fronts.
1. Skirts and dresses. There are a few ways these can be worn and you can feel wearing such items. Depending on the dress and heels I wear I can come across sweet and feminine or Irma la Douce. More is said from the set of your shoulders, the cock of your hips, the length of your stride and the smile in your eyes than the length of your skirt. There are few times I feel more powerful than when wearing a really nice dress that has a side slit and a pair of good Italian 3" heels. I don't feel restricted or pigeonholed, I feel devilish and sharp. In watered silk and flats I am much more relaxed and friendly but as far from a wallflower as you can get. I want to surround myself with people and engage. I am open to everything and everyone, again fearless.
2. The reaction people have to me is diffrent, yes but not the same as you.
When I am wearing the power dresses with the high heels I project an image of cofidence and competance and OK 1/4 *****. ( sexy *****) I just do not get messed with other than have men hold doors held open for me, give me their place in line, their parking spaces, hold up traffic to let me cross the street, and look at me like I am an expensive piece of meat. (and that is telling, isn't it) But no one messes with me. No one is ever rude, isn't that odd?
If I am in the very feminine dress and am being very freindly again I am almost never hassled. If it does happen the people around me, often the biggest guys, will allways intervene and send whomever is being disruptive on thier way. It is pack mentality but in a reverse way. The group wants harmomy to return and so gets rid of the disruptive influence. Being feminine allows me to act as a calming but positive influence on a group, not in a minor , meek, passive,controlled way.

If I must go to court and speak forcefully I wear a powersuit. When I am fundraising I wear the pretty watered silk. A few weekends ago on Canada Day I was at part of a big fundraiser for the the No-Kill shelters of Winnipeg held in Osboure Village . ( In 12 hours our group of 4 people raised $2300.00. I did a lot of schmoosing. Thanks for coming down Andrew. You look even more gorgeous with a bit of a tan.)

Flea, this is why you need to come with Jenna and I to the Islands. I also need to take you shopping. Your dresses and skirts should make you feel like you have the world at your feet or by the "boys".
PS Your friends should make you feel like this too.
lori

[Flea]

Flea, this is why you need to come with Jenna and I to the Islands. I also need to take you shopping. Your dresses and skirts should make you feel like you have the world at your feet or by the "boys".
PS Your friends should make you feel like this too.

Lori, you're da bomb!!

Now that you mention it, I haven't dressed wicked sexy in years. Aside from my red bikini last summer at the swim club, where I caused a near fender-bender on my way in. Maybe I need to make a priority of that, even if I don't have an established reason to do so.

There's another aspect to the experiment for me. To clarify, I don't believe that female = weak. I don't even necessarily believe that female = nice. I'm just saying that that's the programming we've been handed. But Lori, you make an excellent point that while rejecting the destructive part of the programming it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I wore the skirt today for about half the class. I took it off for doing rolls, because it contributed nothing and just got in the way. Put it back on for a while, then ditched it again when I paired up with a newbie and the concealment aspect made the learning difficult for him. I'm happy to say that today it was just a garment, no additional baggage attached. That's the goal. I've thought a little about what other outfits I could wear to experiment with the psychological aspect - pajamas maybe. That red bikini would be fun, but inappropriate. Office duds? I'd want to keep those clothes looking respectable.

What if I rented a clown suit from a costume shop?

[jks9199]

Go back to the thrift shop where you got your "training skirt." Find a set of "training office duds." And get some cheap shoes like you would wear.

Set aside an old pair of jeans and the like, too.

And something along the lines of what you might wear to go out... especially what you might wear to go out and feel "wicked sexy."

Then spend some training time in each, to see how they effect your movement. Keeping to the female side... can you make the same moves in those thigh high boots and miniskirt that makes men drop about 90 IQ points as in a pair of sweats and bare feet? Or a business suit? You'll find differences in what you can -- and maybe what you WILL -- do.

I set aside a few classes a year for "street clothes" training. I encourage people to wear stuff they typically would be seen in... and several have had to adapt significantly the first few times...

My attitude changes as I put a uniform or tac gear on; it effects my bearing, my demeanor, even how I look at people. So does wearing a coat and tie. I know the same thing happens for women; you've said so yourself!

[Just4Kicks]

I've noticed that in normal street situations I act differently according to what I am wearing. Skirts in particular.

I usually wear jeans, so when I'm dresssed in a skirt I feel self conscious, demure and i'm always tugging the hem and sitting daintily. I feel less aggressive, submissive and generally more 'wallflower'ish.

Whereas if I am wearing pants I feel stronger, more confident, natural. Even if realistically, i'd find it easier kicking in a skirt than a pair of jeans.

But this is probably due to personal habit, I just don't feel myself in a skirt and so I assume the meek persona because that's what I'm socially conditioned to behave like when my femininity is highlighted?

but like mentioned before, you have to find the right feminine clothes. if you feel sexy and powerful, then there is no room for the stereotype.

I really should try and train sometime in a skirt, just to see how it goes. My club has a uniform though and on the day we have some leniency, everyone just wears the uniform pants and a tee. It would be amusing though to rock up in leggings and a skirt and see what reaction I get. If i can muster up the courage. haha

[thecrow]

i think women in skirts is sexy, and most guys do, and that is your advantage, it may restrict movement, but guys will not be expecting a fight, the element of surprise, if i were you i would look as sexy as i could and use that, use your sexuality as a weapon, then the trick is looking sexy and but making the clothes as freeing as possible. an illusion in other words, i found a cool pair of shoes that really let me feel the ground with my feet and added to balance and the best part is they looked like sneakers, i have even thought of wearing wrestling shoes, to make my opponents think i wanted to go to the ground, when i want to stay up. good luck