Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?

[Himura Kenshin]

Are the gogyo (chi no kata, hi no kata...ect) traditional kata or things Hayes created?

[Cryozombie]

Originally Posted by KageMusha

When I first started my training in the Bujinkan several years ago, I asked about it and someone from our dojo thought that he would be funny and told me to sign up for martial talk and ask them about it. Of course I listened to a higher ranking student since he should know best. So I asked about it here and it started a friggin war. His way of welcoming me to the Bujinkan.

I'm a dick, what can I say.

[Cryozombie]

Originally Posted by Himura Kenshin

Are the gogyo (chi no kata, hi no kata...ect) traditional kata or things Hayes created?

Do you mean Sanshin? I personally am not familiar with Gogyo, and have only heard of the Chi, Hi, Sui etc used in the Sanshin and Hayes Godai techniques... but thats not to say it doesn't exist.

[KageMusha]

Cryo,

I was trying to not mention that you were the jerk that set me up.

As for the Gogyo, from a book I have that I think Jack Hoban wrote, the gogyo and sanshin are the same thing, just 2 different ways of saying it. Of course who knows how long ago the book was written and Hoban may have still been under Hayes at the time.

[kakuma]

Hello All,

As kagemusha has stated the gogyo and sanshin are the same thing. I have even heard reference that the gogyo is used when actually studying these katas against an opponent and it is considered sanshin when you are not. But there is no solid basis for this interpretation just what I have heard.

As for as being traditional... these katas are not located in any of the densho. It has been said that Hatsumi Sensei created these 5 katas to teach students the principles of basic striking and movement that one trains within the different ryu-ha.

We don't practice them in general within the Jinenkan. However, at my dojo I still use them as a basic guideline to assist new students in proper basics for movement and striking. In my opinion the katas are essential to understand proper striking techniques within one's taijutsu.

To answer Himura Kenshin's question... Hayes teaching of godai is a different aspect and is based more from his Tibetan philosophy which are strongly talked about and referenced in his early books.

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, it has been suggested that the Gogyo no kata, also known as the Sanshin no kata, also known as the Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no kata may have been originated by Hatsumi Sensei, but he has also always taught them as part of the original Japanese Martial Arts. The Kihon Happo, on the other hand, were very likely created by Takamatsu Sensei for Hatsumi to have something to practice during the week.

As for where they are placed today, they are most often associated with the Gyokko Ryu, and are part of the Kihon Gata (before the scroll proper). This section also includes the Kamae, and a three part exercise in basic Muto Dori, known as Muto Taihenjutsu. It has been said, though, that each school has it's own variation of Kihon Happo, and Sanshin no Kata, with the Gyokko Ryu version simply being the best known.

Oh, and in terms of the names, Gogyo refers to 5 shapes, or forms (Gyo can also be read as Kata), Gokei refers to 5 Worlds, and Godai is 5 Elements. From what I understand, these terms can be used almost interchangably, depending on the ryu in question.

[George Kohler]

As far as I know this kata was taught by Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei as kuden from Gyokko-ryu and is not in any densho or makimono. There are several names for this kata and I'll give sources:
1. Shoshin no Kata (初心之型 Beginning Heart Forms) - Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki (TCJRnM).
2. Gogyo no Kata (五行の型 Five Pattern Forms) - TCJRnM.
3. Goshin no Kata (悟心の型 Enlightened Heart Forms) - TCJRnM; Bufu Newsletter (Tanemura Sensei).
4. Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no Kata (初心五形五行の型 Beginning Heart Five Forms Five Elements Forms) - Bufu Newsletter (Tanemura Sensei).
5. Sanshin no Kata (三心之型 Three Hearts Forms) - Ishizuka's curriculum; Quest Gyokko-ryu video (Hatsumi Sensei); Bujin Newsletter #8 (Hatsumi Sensei).
6. (?) Godai no Kata (五大之型Five Elements Forms) - Hatsumi Sensei (Note: I’m not sure if this was in reference to the Sanshin no Kata forms… see below quote).

Below is Ben Cole's translation of a quote from Hatsumi Sensei.

“The first is learning a technique. The second is to understand the techniques through practice. And the third is to discard those very techniques. If you understand this, you understand the Sanshin, which is the beginning of every thing I teach.... The beginning is not the fire, water, wind, earth and emptyness – the Godai no kata. Everything begins with the Sanshin.”

As for Sanshin, I've heard several different ideas:
1. Move with the spirit of a three year old.
2. See above quote.
3. Three different approaches (Note: I might have the first and second reversed):
- Doing the kata in place (Shoshin no Kata)
- Moving forward (Gogyo no Kata)
- Doing it against an opponent (Goshin no Kata)
4. Referred to body, mind and spirit

It should be noted that “Gyo” (行) has different meanings in Japanese and in Chinese. And in some Japanese dictionaries “Gogyo” refers to “the five elements of traditional Chinese philosophy.”
In Japanese “Gyo” refers to:
-Going
-Journey
In Chinese “Gyo” refers to:
-A road.
-To walk, to go, to proceed, to continue.
-To traverse in a fixed pattern, such as an orbit.
-To travel; a trip.
-To do, to perform, to practice, to carry out, to function, to act
-To activate, to set into motion, to put into practice. To do moral or religious practice.
-Conduct, behavior, actions, etc.
-A row, a line, a series.
-To leave, depart, separate from.

[Himura Kenshin]

Ah I see. Thanks for the info.

[George Kohler]

Originally Posted by George Kohler

4. Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no Kata (初心五形五行の型 Beginning Heart Five Forms Five Elements Forms)

I want to correct this:

4. Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no Kata (初心五形五行の型 Beginning Heart Five Pattern Five Movement Forms)

Number 4 should not be referred as elements since the five elements it refers to is Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water. A little different than Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky, which is what we are referring to.

[kakuma]

Originally Posted by George Kohler

As far as I know this kata was taught by Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei as kuden from Gyokko-ryu and is not in any densho or makimono.

George is correct. This information is not located in the densho of Gyokko Ryu. Any addition has been recent and is not part of the orginal makimono.

This is the first that I have heard that it was kuden taught from Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei.