Women's self defense in elevator

[stevebjj]

Originally Posted by Si-Je

Your post is exactly along the lines of what I was hoping would be discussed. Thank you for a great post! These men come from behind, and this is something I stress to women. Plain and simple, don't allow strange men to be behind you, I don't care where you are. I know that there are times where this is unavoidable, but most times it is totally avoidable.
In WC/WT we square off facing opponent in fighting, sparring, etc. This can be done without being challenging, or threatening. The stance is shoulder width apart, feet side by side as if your standing normally. Although, I don't teach the "abduction" rooting of the stance in women's self defense class (it just takes to long to learn) but, I do teach them to defend from that position. And to keep strangers from their blind side, and back.
The woman in russia, once he got her to the ground she was done for. This is another reason why I don't train grappling. I don't want women to wrestle the man, I want to teach them to get free, and defend on contact. Reaction, response, drill different scenarios, like you stated. Those were great!
I give tips such as: when pumping fuel in the car at the gas pumps put your back to your car and face the pump and other customers, not to put your back to the pump and other customers in the parking lot.
or: while in the elevator put your back against a wall if possible.
and: when in enclosed spaces near entrances and exits, be viligant whether at a resturant bathroom hallway, the entrance to a club, lobby, apartment front doorway (coming in and out turn body to the side so you can see behind you as you unlock or lock your front door. Too many people leave their back to the street when they enter their home), choosing seating at a resturant (don't sit with your back to the entrance/exit of the resturant or if possible be facing most of the room of the resturant/club/bar, etc.)
And much more scenarios where we practice physically positioning yourself by limiting the number of people to be behind you in a tight space, indoors, or coming in and out of entrances/exits. And yes, we drill getting in and out of the car with purses, bags, groceries, etc.

The only thing that I disagree with in this post is that you use the fact that she's functionally helpless on the ground as justification for not training grappling. The statement "This is another reason why I don't train grappling. I don't want women to wrestle the man, I want to teach them to get free, and defend on contact," could as easily be changed to justify not training striking, because you don't want the woman to get into a boxing match with a man.

Otherwise, I agree.

[seasoned]

Woman are born fighters, they pull hair, use open hands, scratch eyes, bite. I personally would never teach a women’s self defense class using boxing or wrestling techniques. The first and foremost technique would be a well placed eye strike. Standing, sitting, or lying on the ground makes no difference, cats do a very nice job of it against the biggest of DOGS.

[Grendel308]

First to Si-Je, thanks for this thread and good on you for developing and teaching practical SD to women. I do however respectfully disagree with the idea that you never want a woman to go to the ground with a man. In BJJ technique, flexability, poise and quickness will beat strength. Wreck a joint, break a large bone, choke someone out and the fight is over. I am 5' 2" and about 110 ish. The guys I train with are all bigger than me ( some are heavyweight pro fighters) and some have to work damn hard in randori to not get tapped out.
Next on to Brian. Thanks for the excellent reply. Brian do you think that the guys who go into the attack with the intention of killing the victim will back out if the victim fights back hard. I mean with intent to cause serious permenent injury? Starts to grab for joint locks, trachea crushes, tendon tears, chop kicks to inner knees, judo throws to pavement. Think of an ex-marine being attacked, do you think the attacker would coninue or would he flee and look for an easier target? Is that maybe the mind set the women in the SD need to be given? It's you or him. Does he have the right to take your life? If not, what are you willing to do about it?
lori

[Brian]

Grendel308 wrote

“Brian do you think that the guys who go into the attack with the intention of killing the victim will back out if the victim fights back hard.”

“do you think the attacker would coninue or would he flee and look for an easier target?”

That IS an interesting question isn’t it. There are so many different variables. People willing to attack and kill come in different flavors if you will. Is it personal, is it business, is it chemical or illness, where the attack coming from is one variable. Why was the victim chosen, because she is a female and 5’2” 110 pound reminder of mom, because she was distracted and presented an opportunity for an easy score, because life sucks and right here getting into the same elevator is someone who is happy and has everything, because the voices in the head go quiet when the knife sinks in and the screams start?

Looking at many of the mass murderers (the different church shooters, that POS that murdered those Quaker children, the school shooters) when confronted with a determined armed response they often turn their own guns upon themselves and cowardly end their own misery. Logically, I would think that if a killer was looking for a fight, a ‘fair’ contest they would walk up to an officer and start slugging and while that does occasionally happen, many others attack from ambush and/or chose the elderly, the weak the injured to prey upon because they do not want a fair fight or a fight at all but want to fill a need for violence against another without risking serious injury to themselves.

If it happens to be a true professional that is engaging you …well your chances are slim that you will even know that you are under attack.

With all the different variables it makes more sense to me to not worry what the attacker will do or not do. The attacker’s responses are often mostly out of our control but what we do control is how we respond.

For myself I base my own personal training on mostly working on awareness, sensitivity, movement and breathing rather than trying to come up with specific responses to specific attacks. My own mindset or belief regarding facing an attack is along the lines of if the attacker(s) have a change of heart before the attack begins it is a victory, if the attack is on but upon resistance or perceived danger they then have a change off heart and break off the attack and flee that is also a victory, if I and the attacker(s) end up doing ugly work and both suffering injuries but they break off and flee still a victory in my opinion. If the attack comes and the attacker is injured or killed that is a victory and perhaps hard for some to understand if the attack comes and I am killed either outright or after an ugly bloody conflict that is also a victory for me. This belief has allowed me to deal with violence before it happened, as it was occurring and as importantly the after effects. It allows me to do as much or whatever is needed calmly with a clear conscious. It has worked for me in the past but I also study and try to learn from every additional occurrence reevaluating and testing my reactions and instincts to insure as much as I can that it is still a good method for me. Others will have their own way and their own mindset to deal with violence and if it works for them at that particular moment then who can complain?

“Think of an ex-marine”

Hmm as far as I have always been told there is NO such thing *grinning*

“Is that maybe the mind set the women in the SD need to be given?”

Thanks for asking but I am also curious what you and others think? Is that the mindset that should be developed?

Here is my opinion for what it is worth. It is a mind set certainly and I would never be so arrogant as to say that it is the best the worst or anywhere in between for any particular person in any given circumstance. I briefly commented on my own mindset above but I believe that an individual must come up with their own motivations and mindsets based on their beliefs training and experiences.

Going off of my memory there was an elderly lady here in the Seattle area that was brutally attacked in her home years ago. She was knocked unconscious a couple of times while being repeatedly raped losing several of her front teeth, every time she recovered consciousness she started to fight back. She suffered multiple cuts and slashes and contusions and if I remember right she also had a broken arm and several ribs broken ribs. Long gruesome story short she finally was able to get to a loaded 22 revolver and shot at her attacker as she went to her washroom and locked herself inside. When the police showed up she shot at them thru the door but by Gods grace she did not hit any of them (no charges were pressed against her) she survived the attack and fought as well as she was able.

More than learning how to choke or kick or hit she had developed the will to survive, no matter what! The way that this will manifest may be different for all, some ladies will fight back viciously, others will submit and still others will find their own way. Surviving and being willing to do whatever is necessary to survive is a skill set that can be developed and enhanced, but it requires that the practitioner be very honest with themselves, that they be willing to confront fear and willing to find what it is that will develop that desire to survive to find that something to live for no matter what.

Several months ago there was an elderly lady robbed at gunpoint (in Florida I think?) She was forced in her car (at a mall) and threatened with being killed for the money in her purse. She started to talk to the man about her faith and that no matter what he did to her she was happy because she would soon see her lord and she was going to heaven. He on the other hand would be going to hell. She witnessed to him the strength and grace that believing gave her and it softened his heart. I think she was in her 90’s. He left with only tears flowing down his cheeks.

There is an Old Russian joke that also describes a method of survival.

*Misha was walking down the street one late evening when he was approached by four mean looking angry men. The men accosted Misha asking if his name was Sergey but before he could reply they began to give him a terrible beating. As Misha curled on the floor under the boots he thought to himself “this is bad but at least I am not Sergey”*

Regarding victim hood survival and violence it is my opinion that it healthier and prudent to give it some serious thought discussion and exploration with the hope that it is never needed but in the spirit of being prepared just in case it must be faced, but everyone has to hoe their own rows and mileage varies.

Warmest regards
Brian King

[Grendel308]

Perhaps this is part of what women who go to all the SD classes need to be introduced to. When I was a teenager I took a few woman's SD classes. Looking back now they were a joke. What I needed was the skillset taught to the SF Airborne boys, and the mindset that goes with it. Now That is useful.
The PC crap I was taught at the Y, referred to as chick-ee-do by the boys, would have likely gotten be badly beaten.
I do wish there was more " here is the reality, field trip to the morgue, any questions" and then teach whoever comes back from the fieldtrip the nasty hardcore moves along with the basic anatomy you need to know in order to drop a man.
lori

[Brian]

Grendel308 wrote:

“I do wish”

Pardon me for sprouting off and saying what you already know, but others read these threads so I feel a little honesty is called for.

There is absolutely nobody to take the ownership of your training better qualified than yourself. Nobody else has as much to gain or as much to lose as you do.

I do wish there was more " here is the reality, field trip to the morgue, any questions"

Reality is good but caution needs to be used in all training. Systema folks often call it cracking the shell while not breaking the egg. Teaching somebody to absorb strikes poorly reinforces and increases fear but taught correctly gives courage and confidence. Patience is needed as well as awareness and sensitivity. A trip to the morgue would be good for some but not all. It depends on the urgency of the training and the type of situations likely to be faced. In my opinion learning to do damage is more important and healthier than desensitization. By learning to do damage I am not speaking of specific techniques or hard core moves but rather the will to do the damage. For some people, giving them permission to do the work is a tough battle that has to be won before serious work can be learned. This permission has to be both to do the work and to have the work done to you. To engage a target you have to risk becoming a target..but I ramble so sorry.

Better than the morgue I think for most is to go hunting. Put a poor defenseless beast into your sights and pull the trigger or release the shaft, then do the skinning gutting and cleaning yourself. Get some blood on you, acknowledge how it makes you feel (there is no right or wrong feeling in this) deal with those feelings. For action professionals who will need the mindset and skills right away a morgue or as some have done going to traffic accidents and getting the gore elbow and knee deep might be what is needed. For the rest of us learning to do the work honestly, learning to face and confront our fears honestly while overcoming them is better training, more useful in daily life as well as during and after life and death situations.

“then teach whoever comes back from the fieldtrip the nasty hardcore moves along with the basic anatomy you need to know in order to drop a man”

The hardcore moves are not that big a deal to learn, exploration and testing is all that is needed. Anatomy can be learned a couple of different ways. Some people can learn from reading books and watching DVD’s and attending lectures and classes. Others can better learn by going hands on learning by doing on living breathing bodies. A truth…there is not much difference between healing and destroying. Learn how the seven physiological systems work and you learn how to disrupt and/or destroy them. The rest is awareness timing faith and luck.

“The PC crap I was taught at the Y, referred to as chick-ee-do by the boys, would have likely gotten be badly beaten.”

I believe that no training is wasted. Sometimes learning what does not work and what not to do are valuable lessons. LOL lessons best learned while training.

Regards
Brian King

[Si-Je]

Lori, I find your mindset truely refreshing. I've come up against the expectation of teaching a SD class that is ver PC and much advice from folks that want me to 'water down" the WC training in the classes. I have not done this. Unfortunately, I've had very few women actually take the class.
One woman went with her teenage daughter and the mother loved it, yet the daughter just tolerated the class.
I covered many WC basics and some slight advanced stuff with the mother and was able to incorporate the necessary mindset as well with her.
Mainly emphasizing to her that whatever she has to do to the attacker to defend to "make it forever".
That was the motto. If she punches once to the attackers face, then chainpunch until they fall down, and then a little more for good measure.
I do not like that people teach SD to women to get a couple of "shots" in and run away. Now you have a really ticked off strong mean bad man attacker running after you, or there's no where to run. Then what? The woman has used her reparte of techniques, now she's left to improvise. And will usually lose.
Being that you never know the full intention or motivation of an attacker, as Brian said, maybe their crazy, their jealous, its a gang initiation, they just want to kidnap you and rape and kill you at their lesiure, or that they'll run off if you fight too hard. All these ideas are just conjecture and I agree that you shouldn't be as concerned with trying to figure out the motivations, and intentions of an attacker.
Train to respond to what you recieve. WC does this with everything we train. You return the same amout of force as your given. I.E. if it's just an accuaitance being silly and brutish then your response is less aggressive or violent. It's just not needed.
But if you are attacked with great violence and force then you respond accordingly. And for God's sake and your own! Finish it! No PC.
If your afraid for your very life, virtue, person, or a family member (child) that's with you then do what HAS to be done, and finish the attacker. I'm not promoting killing, I'm trying to promote that women finish the fight, the conflict is resolved before they attempt to run. Make sure they cannot follow, or get a weapon, or another attacker/friend to help them get you. Take them out of physical commission so there is less of a chance that they can continue to hurt you.
If you can do it using BJJ fine. Just don't submit them, break the limb. How are you going to dail 911 while your holding an attacker with all your might in a submission. Finish them, so you are able to dial 911 without being attacked in the process.
If you can execute spinning heel kicks to the head and knock them down, great! Just make sure they don't get up after that, finish them, follow through (stomp the groin, face, throat, etc), so you truely have a chance to get away without harm to you.
If you can do WC and chainpunch them in the face 20 punches in 8-10 seconds, great! do it! And follow through until they are not either willing or able to get back up from the ground. Follow through.
It seems really mean and vicious, but in reality it isn't. I'm not condoning women just beat the living tar out of every guy that makes them nervous or is annoying, and I teach the differences in the classes and give ways for women to diffuse unwanted approaches or encounters from folks that are bothersome without being violent, threatening, aggressive, or mean. Just assertive and blunt in expressing what it is they want the offending fellow to do. You want him to leave you alone, simply say so. No need to be aggressive or rude, just honest, and confident.

Anyways, I just wanted to offer a sceanio where the regular methods of SD teachings may not be as effective. as in running away immediately, calling for help, giving the attacker the "old one two" and stopping there. And this being a questionable video and such, it's still a common sceanrio than when a woman has to truely defend herself she is almost always in a place that is:
1. secluded:
no one to help, to try to go for help would make her lose her opportunity to defend.
2. tight and limited space for movement:
often limiting one's choice of techniques to that which can be done in a small space. (a car, apartment, hallway, stairway, the bathroom, etc.)
3. where it takes to long to depend on outside help and immediate action is needed:
ex. she had to wait until the elevator doors opened again to escape.
4. In a high state of fear and surprise:
where if a woman doesn't train for the 'surprise' and train "live" then she will not be prepared to respond to an unexpected attack.

I really think alot of the way many teachers teach women's self defense needs to be evaluated in a light of realism, no matter how ugly it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgABZt53vk8

awareness is great too but it's just a start:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI5G2Zqi7DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBREoarU76k

Verbal assertiveness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2ev3YzszYY

The next step: training:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaFL9Tq5t1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BQPYHz8Qxw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMPscOcluJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQo_kAM-2qs
my fav. Dr. Ruthless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0piEyfcVAk

Defend or die:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlP8PZo_v5U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ekf36-cAuQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCCVJ4J87LU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSwHpnjpgDg

There are dozens of news reports on violent attacks on women of all ages in my area, and I'm sure in any other major city as well. These are just examples from where I live.

[Grendel308]

Si-Je
Well I do thank you for taking the time to teach women SD and for writing a book. No offence to the guys here but I think most non-MA women will listen to and believe another woman SD instructor who is their size and weight rather than a man who is 6'2" and 185".
Now as for the trip to the morgue, most women I know, and this includes some of the Judoka's and BJJ players, have no idea of what real violence looks like or feels like. If these women are ever confronted with real violence they will freeze. If they get cut and they see blood running down their arm and dripping onto the pavment will they keep fighting? If they break his wrist and can see bone but he still keeps coming will they keep fighting? Do they know where to strike in the back of the head to shut down most CNS pathway functions?
No class ever taught me any of this. The A & P I learned from Nursing, useful info. I did various rotations so blood and gore, even mine, don't bug me. My life and the airborne boys gave me the " If I'm going, I"m taking you with me, see you in hell mother****er" additude.
Then I see my freinds and their sad little womens' SD classes, all 10 weeks of them and think " yup, you go ahead and try to pull that move off, he'll enjoy it. Then he has even more justification to beat your pretty face in. But they are so sure that those sloppy little nose punches will work or that one kick in the groin will drop a guy that I just don't say anything anymore. This seems like the fast food equililent of WSD, something for nothing. Very little hard work and no moral dillema. Very PC. Fine as long as you never leave The Magic Kingdom.
Lori

[Si-Je]

Yes ma'am! I agree with you!
What I'm teaching and wanting to incorporate is much more "viscious" and more emphasis on continious striking of the attacker all the way to the ground. I promote that the women drill and practice striking several times constantly until they feel that he won't get back up.
One or two little shots to the groin or nose just isn't going to do it. Espectially on a stronger larger man. Definately not, if their is more than one.

The knee kick we teach is the WC heel kick and it is specially designed to break the knee not to just distract or hurt. The positioning of the heel to the inside of the knee coupled with the forward force of the kick makes this quick and effective. I focus on that kick the most with the WSD class than the groin kicks.
Those are easy and instictual and there's not much to work on other than making them aware that it's an easy option. But, its not the end all to be all technique. It would be maybe the begining strike to be followed by many strikes to the face, throat, neck, and head.
Follow through, follow through! attack until they stop fighting back!
As for knowing what one will do in a violent attack. This is a deliema all martial artist must even consider. All the training in the world won't truely prepare you for the gore of combat. That's something each person must mentally prepare themselves for, a good teacher can help alot, but each person must make the choice to go all the way. I tell the ladies, "whatever strike or technique you attempt. Make it forever. If you use a weapon, or improvise with pen or keys and want to use that against the attacker. Don't just "poke" them in the eye, or someplace to hurt them. Make it FOREVER."

[MJS]

Originally Posted by Si-Je

Your post is exactly along the lines of what I was hoping would be discussed. Thank you for a great post! These men come from behind, and this is something I stress to women. Plain and simple, don't allow strange men to be behind you, I don't care where you are. I know that there are times where this is unavoidable, but most times it is totally avoidable.
In WC/WT we square off facing opponent in fighting, sparring, etc. This can be done without being challenging, or threatening. The stance is shoulder width apart, feet side by side as if your standing normally. Although, I don't teach the "abduction" rooting of the stance in women's self defense class (it just takes to long to learn) but, I do teach them to defend from that position. And to keep strangers from their blind side, and back.
The woman in russia, once he got her to the ground she was done for. This is another reason why I don't train grappling. I don't want women to wrestle the man, I want to teach them to get free, and defend on contact. Reaction, response, drill different scenarios, like you stated. Those were great!
I give tips such as: when pumping fuel in the car at the gas pumps put your back to your car and face the pump and other customers, not to put your back to the pump and other customers in the parking lot.
or: while in the elevator put your back against a wall if possible.
and: when in enclosed spaces near entrances and exits, be viligant whether at a resturant bathroom hallway, the entrance to a club, lobby, apartment front doorway (coming in and out turn body to the side so you can see behind you as you unlock or lock your front door. Too many people leave their back to the street when they enter their home), choosing seating at a resturant (don't sit with your back to the entrance/exit of the resturant or if possible be facing most of the room of the resturant/club/bar, etc.)
And much more scenarios where we practice physically positioning yourself by limiting the number of people to be behind you in a tight space, indoors, or coming in and out of entrances/exits. And yes, we drill getting in and out of the car with purses, bags, groceries, etc.

While I agree with the other safety tips, I disagree with the bold part. See, IMO, I think that you're hearing the word "Grappling" and assuming that we ( the ones who advocate the importance of ground work) are saying to roll around looking for a submission. You can take the basics of grappling, and work in the dirty fighting, to allow yourself to be able to get back to a standing position. You are assuming that the standup fighter will never go down. How do you know that will never happen?

You also seem to be assuming that the stronger person will always win. Take note of this. Pay attention to these parts:

"The youngest son of Gastao and Cesalina Gracie's eight children, Helio, was always a very physically frail child."

"He soon realized that some of the techniques he had memorized from watching Carlos teach were not very easy for him to execute. He then started to adapt those moves to his frail body's abilities, improving the leverage in the execution of some of those techniques. He dared to break away from the traditional jiu-jitsu his brothers had learned and were teaching, and through trial and error, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was born."


"Helio eventually fought 17 fights including matches against the world wrestling champion, Wladek Zbyszko and a qualifying fight against the #2 jiu-jitsu fighter in the world, Kato, who Helio choked unconscious in 6 minutes. This victory enabled him to enter the ring with the world champion, Masahiko Kimura, who outweighed Helio by over 80 pounds. Helio Gracie holds the record for the longest match in history for a battle against his former student, Waldemar Santana, which lasted an amazing 3 hours and 40 minutes!"

The above 3 quotes show proof that a small, frail man, could adapt the techs. for him, and prove to be effective. Here is another example. Royler is small in size yet:

"When one looks at Royler, the most striking characteristic is his slight frame. This image is reinforced when he takes on opponents far larger than himself. His lack of brawn has made Royler the technician par excellence. He is totally dependent upon superior technique for victory. He is the pure jiu-jitsu man's fighter; precise, technical, relaxed and always looking to employ technique and strategy against strength. As a result, Royler can teach anyone, even the physically ungifted and weak, to prevail in a fight. This makes him one of the most sought after instructors in the martial arts world. He is the living embodiment of the martial artist's dream of skill and technique overcoming strength and aggression."

[Si-Je]

I don't assume that the striking style fighter will NEVER be taken down. I've never promoted that. I've always shared techniques that will help a fighter defend against being taken down and to fight as much as possible on their feet.
I train anti-grappling or WT ground fighting (a little more PC of a name for it.) It's fighting on the ground, it's NOT grappling, wrestling, or BJJ, or actually anything that I've ever seen anywhere else. It's a different approach to ground fighting. It's a strikers approach to ground fighting, designed to get you off the ground right away.
How can a woman run away from her attacker if she's wasting time "submitting" the guy all day on the ground?
How can she get away quickly if she's rolling around on the ground with him wrestling?
Grapplings all well and good and can help.

But, as Women's SD I don't feel that the grappling or BJJ "guard" position with your legs wrapped around a man's waiste is really the technique I personally want to go with. (just as an example)
I want to teach women how to keep a rapist OUT from between their legs, and when a rapist gets in between them how to keep them from being raped in that position. This is not sport. This is serious time.

Self-Defense:
Defend, follow through, hurt them bad, keep from being taken and held on the ground, make sure their not going to run after you, get away.

[MJS]

Originally Posted by Si-Je

I don't assume that the striking style fighter will NEVER be taken down. I've never promoted that. I've always shared techniques that will help a fighter defend against being taken down and to fight as much as possible on their feet.

Hmmm...perhaps it was the way some of the posts were interpreted. Then again, many arts have ways to defeat certain things. However, I'd think it'd be important to have a backup plan, in the event that our defense fails or is countered.

I train anti-grappling or WT ground fighting (a little more PC of a name for it.) It's fighting on the ground, it's NOT grappling, wrestling, or BJJ, or actually anything that I've ever seen anywhere else. It's a different approach to ground fighting. It's a strikers approach to ground fighting, designed to get you off the ground right away.
How can a woman run away from her attacker if she's wasting time "submitting" the guy all day on the ground?
How can she get away quickly if she's rolling around on the ground with him wrestling?
Grapplings all well and good and can help.

From my last post:

"You can take the basics of grappling, and work in the dirty fighting, to allow yourself to be able to get back to a standing position."

I've used the terms 'grappling' as well as 'ground fighting' in my posts. In this case we agree. I guess my point was, its good to understand the position, then find ways to put in the 'dirty fighting' tricks. But yes, in a life/death battle, I'd rather not waste time looking for a submission. Now, if it presents itself, sure I might take advantage of that, in hopes to cause damge to the arm, but to intentionally look for one...no.

But, as Women's SD I don't feel that the grappling or BJJ "guard" position with your legs wrapped around a man's waiste is really the technique I personally want to go with. (just as an example)
I want to teach women how to keep a rapist OUT from between their legs, and when a rapist gets in between them how to keep them from being raped in that position. This is not sport. This is serious time.

Actually, if that guard position is used right, it should be fairly easy to control the person in the guard. Again, see my comment above. I'm not advocating to stay in that position.

Self-Defense:
Defend, follow through, hurt them bad, keep from being taken and held on the ground, make sure their not going to run after you, get away.

[Si-Je]

Miss me? lol!

Well, I tend to get frustrated when about every thread and converstation on the board seems to always go into grappling discussion.

I'm just not interested in grappling with my friendly neighborhood rapist. lol!
I want to crush his face, nuts, throat, eardrums, etc., to do serious quick damage in a most likely ridiculessly tight space and get away.

And I definately dislike that leg wrapping around the waist guard. I don't see how it gives you a more advantageous position. Really. So now your clinching the guy, pelvis to pelvis, now what? We wrestle?
No thanks, I want the dude offa me asap. I don't want his body weight crushing my stomach and lungs makeing it harder to breathe, I don't want him to flaten out and smother me with his chest. I'm teeeny, lol!
I want out of that situation asap! now!
And to do the most damage as repiticiously as I can before we depart ways for the evening.
I want to break the guy, make sure they don't come running after me, get up and run.
Other women may not have this mindset in my area (as it seems) but their are several women's SD programs that have the very same values and principles as I do and are very successful.

Maybe I come off to hard or scare ladies off because I condone "swift and blinding violence" towards a violent offender, I don't know, that's what I'm trying to find out.

If their going for the Grappling and Jiu-Jitsu styles of SD then I can't and won't teach that. Sorry, it's just a matter of principle and personal belief. If I don't believe that technique will 100% work in the street then I will not add it in the SD curriculium. I'm responsible for what I teach people, they depend on us to teach them true techniuqe and realistic application of that technique.
I'm not going to just teach what's poplular because it gets women in class. I honestly think enough of that is going on already.
I can only teach what I truely believe in, and if I didn't I wouldn't be a very honest or good teacher. And I couldn't honestly sleep at night if I felt I was teaching women especially, technique that was not the best I could provide.
Just where I'm coming from on that. If I'm shown that grappling will really help in a true selfdefense situation, especially a woman using it against a man without totally taking a beating then I may reconsider.
Until then...
I stick to where I stand.

[MJS]

Originally Posted by Si-Je

I'm just not interested in grappling with my friendly neighborhood rapist. lol!
I want to crush his face, nuts, throat, eardrums, etc., to do serious quick damage in a most likely ridiculessly tight space and get away.

Just want to make sure that you haven't missed my posts where I've spoke of the same things you are. See, it still seems to me, that you're misunderstanding something. Just because I advocate the study of grappling, does not mean that I encourage someone to roll around looking for that submission. What I do advocate though, is a good understanding of each position, ie: mount, guard, side mount, etc.

And I definately dislike that leg wrapping around the waist guard. I don't see how it gives you a more advantageous position. Really. So now your clinching the guy, pelvis to pelvis, now what? We wrestle?
No thanks, I want the dude offa me asap. I don't want his body weight crushing my stomach and lungs makeing it harder to breathe, I don't want him to flaten out and smother me with his chest. I'm teeeny, lol!
I want out of that situation asap! now!
And to do the most damage as repiticiously as I can before we depart ways for the evening.
I want to break the guy, make sure they don't come running after me, get up and run.
Other women may not have this mindset in my area (as it seems) but their are several women's SD programs that have the very same values and principles as I do and are very successful.

See, your first paragraph shows that you are lacking an understanding of each position. From the guard, using your legs, you can extend as well as pull in. How can this be useful? Hmm..lets see...if the guy starts hitting the woman, she could use her legs to push him away. She could also bring him in closer, which should nullify the strikes a bit, so she could employ the 'dirty fighting' tactics. Here is one example.

If their going for the Grappling and Jiu-Jitsu styles of SD then I can't and won't teach that. Sorry, it's just a matter of principle and personal belief. If I don't believe that technique will 100% work in the street then I will not add it in the SD curriculium. I'm responsible for what I teach people, they depend on us to teach them true techniuqe and realistic application of that technique.
I'm not going to just teach what's poplular because it gets women in class. I honestly think enough of that is going on already.
I can only teach what I truely believe in, and if I didn't I wouldn't be a very honest or good teacher. And I couldn't honestly sleep at night if I felt I was teaching women especially, technique that was not the best I could provide.
Just where I'm coming from on that. If I'm shown that grappling will really help in a true selfdefense situation, especially a woman using it against a man without totally taking a beating then I may reconsider.
Until then...
I stick to where I stand.

Again, all I'm simply saying, and this has already been beat like a deadhorse, but if someone does not understand how the basic positions work, then it won't matter what defense you pick, because you'll still be a fish out of water. I'm not saying you have to teach a BJJ course. I'm saying understand each position, how to escape and then add in the dirty fighting. If someone is in the mount position and they get up high, with their knees under your arms, the person on the bottom is pretty much screwed, because now all their weight is on your chest, it'll be much harder to breath and the strikes from the bottom will have little to no effect. However, if you understand how to escape the mount, how to keep the person from moving up, your escape and counters will be much easier.

In closing I'll say this. You seem very set in your ways, and not willing to listen to anyone else. Proof that a grappling art will work against a stronger person has been shown, yet you still dismiss it. Thats fine, if thats what you want to do.

[Si-Je]

I'm just really not wanting to continiously discuss grappling in every thread. I may be confused with you advocating knowledge of "grappling" but not training it. Because you tend to go into depth about training grappling and grappling techniuqes.
Are you using Kempo against grapplers? Or are you supplementing your Kempo with Grappling? This is where I get confused in your postings.
your very well versed in grappling, and know the techniuqes very well. You train grappling.
I do not.
I train AGAINST grapplers using WC. There is a fundamental difference. I don't have a "working knowledge of grappling techniques", I don't grapple at all. I use WC to defend against grappling.