What is Moh Kempo?

[J.K.]

Also ,
"I will continue to speak out about what I believe and I will continue to practice the art I have devoted my life to."

Let's address this as well. You haven't had any experience in any other art besides what you were shown. You don't know anything about or had a lesson in anything else, so you just know what you've been TOLD. You don't know from EXPERIENCE. Kinda like armchair quarterbacking.
BTW Denial is more than a river in Egypt.

[MrE2Me2]

Hey J.K.

You posted, “But the fact is "The Board" has close ties to the Seattle folks right?”

Actually, I was under the impression that there had been a split…

You also posted, “I mean they are promoting all the same thing, right? They come from the same place?”

Again, that is yet another point of contention. The board has not seen fit to show anyone exactly what they do. Even among those like myself, there is a lot of diversity. The art of Moh is continuously developing.


You posted, “I do have issues with outrageous claims of false lineage.”

So do I.

You posted, “Especially when you or your ilk claim what you do is similar to American Kenpo.”

I have never made that claim. In fact, I explored that idea on the Moh forum.

There is some testimonial evidence to suggest that members of Moh and members of American Kenpo know each other and trained with each other (including Margitte, Olaf, Ed Senior and you).

Olaf has even made the claim that he (Olaf) was promoted by GMEP. Other than that, Moh Kempo and American Kenpo would appear to be two different martial arts.

You posted, “You don't know anything about or had a lesson in anything else, so you just know what you've been TOLD. You don't know from EXPERIENCE.”

Actually, I do. While I have spent the majority of my training in Moh, I have explored other martial arts and I have trained other martial artists (no Moh Kempo stylists).

As was said to me long ago, so I pass onto you ‘Jeff’; your posts read as so bitter!

[J.K.]

Robbie!,
Bitter? Naah, over exuberant maybe. I gotta point out that you are in fact Spin Doctoring again .That was the entirety of your last post.
I'm REALLY passionate about this topic, because of their past (and seemingly current) practices. The average consumer like the original poster has no idea about this organization. I pointed out before I told no untruths in any of my posts. It's not that I don't like you, I cannot get behind anything this organization(group,style) does. In the future I hope that you would endevour to seek out a Kenpo senior and pick his mind,
feel the difference. Until then , Sorry for hurt feelings, but the Truth has a way of being uncomfortable.

Jeff K.

[J.K.]

BTW.

If I was you or Grasshopper, I would try to contact Joe Rebelo or
Tom Bleeker. The both responded to my post @ kenponet.
They are both significant folks in the kenpo world.
Mr Rebelo inherited David German's system and seems to be a virtual encyclopedia of kenpo. Mr Bleeker has been around for quite awhile.
If you had any Bruce Lee questions as well, there's your man. He is a writer and author. He wrote the screenplay for "Dragon" ,wrote another more truthful biography of the man and was married to Linda Lee.
Best of Luck.

J.K.

[Sukerkin]

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[Senjojutsu]

I have no axe in this fight, but since I am veteran of several message boards let me tell you this Moh Kempo thread is “déjà vu all over again”.

So let me write you all a tale – a tale that seems to repeat itself on many a thread throughout cyberspace (I am also aware that MT does not promote itself as having any “Fraud Busting” objective):

1. Back in the day (1960s or early 1970s) a “master” appeared and opened up a small school in some low rent building.

2. The master wove a story about his style and his lineage. This story could range from questionable embellishments to the truth to outright fantasy & lies. But this was back in the day long before the Internet and any scholarly research methods within most martial arts.

3. Through some level of personal athletic skill and knowledge, sweat, hard knuckle training before the age of lawsuits and leadership charisma this master develops his first generation of students as he struggles to keep his small school doors open.

4. With perseverance the master aided with that first generation of students opens up his second and third schools.

5. As the master gets to train his second and third generations of direct students the original style & lineage “story” is often embellished even more.

6. A business model for a franchise chain of schools is developed. (Pay attention this becomes more important later).

7. As the overall number of students grows they start making a significant impact on the regional martial arts scene – i.e., they take championship trophies in the Podunk Regional Karate Championships for three straight years.

8. These local public successes lead to a greater influx of more students while surviving the various martial arts fads during the past three decades. Or perhaps, they incorporate the latest big fad into their own curriculum and history!

9. At this point of time the style & organization often undergoes its first name change, sometimes for marketing reasons.

10. Now the second/third generation of direct students are opening up franchises as the master’s empire continues to grow.

11. Alas now a “cult of personality” is in full blossom regarding the master often with more historical revisionism. Any witnesses from the old small school days have been weeded out or they sit in senior positions within the organization. The second/third direct student generations running the schools are all true believers.

12. The business model becomes a key driver. It’s about profits and growth baby! There appears to be a direct correlation between the growth of the number of schools and unethical/anti-consumer nature of the franchise model. Higher than normal market tuition, testing fees, other hidden fees, student contracts with long-term deals, segregation of students based on income, black belt clubs, patches & more patches, mandatory internal merchandising etc… etc… etc…

13. As the years go by the franchise empire & master grow older. Cracks of dissention now appear – often lead by the local franchise school owners. Some of these instructors have been loyal campers for ten-to-fifteen plus years but are becoming increasingly disillusioned by the organizational politics and focus on profit over quality. As they are the direct interfaces to the consumers - the local instructors get all the push backs about the training costs and fees. They see their students (peers and training friends) leave for other M.A. opportunities. As experienced martial arts individuals they wonder why they are busting their hump for someone else’s profit.

14. The Information Revolution hits modern society including of course - the martial arts.

15. Now the lineage tale woven by the master back in the day (Bullet Item #2) becomes a major discussion point – the cyberspace flashlight is shining brightly on this style’s historical roots and any other public dirty laundry, such as decree settlements with governmental entities.

16. The keyboard battle lines are drawn. The master’s loyalists & true believers versus the keyboard skeptics/historians along with the style’s disillusioned former instructors/students.

Maybe after the holiday I will give examples of logical points/counterpoints that have been used in these debates. Maybe.


…and if anyone wants to add any relevant bullets to the boilerplate listing I missed, feel free for today is Independence Day!

[marlon]

I have no axe in this fight, but since I am veteran of several message boards let me tell you this Moh Kempo thread is “déjà vu all over again”.

So let me write you all a tale – a tale that seems to repeat itself on many a thread throughout cyberspace (I am also aware that MT does not promote itself as having any “Fraud Busting” objective):

1. Back in the day (1960s or early 1970s) a “master” appeared and opened up a small school in some low rent building.

2. The master wove a story about his style and his lineage. This story could range from questionable embellishments to the truth to outright fantasy & lies. But this was back in the day long before the Internet and any scholarly research methods within most martial arts.

3. Through some level of personal athletic skill and knowledge, sweat, hard knuckle training before the age of lawsuits and leadership charisma this master develops his first generation of students as he struggles to keep his small school doors open.

4. With perseverance the master aided with that first generation of students opens up his second and third schools.

5. As the master gets to train his second and third generations of direct students the original style & lineage “story” is often embellished even more.

6. A business model for a franchise chain of schools is developed. (Pay attention this becomes more important later).

7. As the overall number of students grows they start making a significant impact on the regional martial arts scene – i.e., they take championship trophies in the Podunk Regional Karate Championships for three straight years.

8. These local public successes lead to a greater influx of more students while surviving the various martial arts fads during the past three decades. Or perhaps, they incorporate the latest big fad into their own curriculum and history!

9. At this point of time the style & organization often undergoes its first name change, sometimes for marketing reasons.

10. Now the second/third generation of direct students are opening up franchises as the master’s empire continues to grow.

11. Alas now a “cult of personality” is in full blossom regarding the master often with more historical revisionism. Any witnesses from the old small school days have been weeded out or they sit in senior positions within the organization. The second/third direct student generations running the schools are all true believers.

12. The business model becomes a key driver. It’s about profits and growth baby! There appears to be a direct correlation between the growth of the number of schools and unethical/anti-consumer nature of the franchise model. Higher than normal market tuition, testing fees, other hidden fees, student contracts with long-term deals, segregation of students based on income, black belt clubs, patches & more patches, mandatory internal merchandising etc… etc… etc…

13. As the years go by the franchise empire & master grow older. Cracks of dissention now appear – often lead by the local franchise school owners. Some of these instructors have been loyal campers for ten-to-fifteen plus years but are becoming increasingly disillusioned by the organizational politics and focus on profit over quality. As they are the direct interfaces to the consumers - the local instructors get all the push backs about the training costs and fees. They see their students (peers and training friends) leave for other M.A. opportunities. As experienced martial arts individuals they wonder why they are busting their hump for someone else’s profit.

14. The Information Revolution hits modern society including of course - the martial arts.

15. Now the lineage tale woven by the master back in the day (Bullet Item #2) becomes a major discussion point – the cyberspace flashlight is shining brightly on this style’s historical roots and any other public dirty laundry, such as decree settlements with governmental entities.

16. The keyboard battle lines are drawn. The master’s loyalists & true believers versus the keyboard skeptics/historians along with the style’s disillusioned former instructors/students.

Maybe after the holiday I will give examples of logical points/counterpoints that have been used in these debates. Maybe.


…and if anyone wants to add any relevant bullets to the boilerplate listing I missed, feel free for today is Independence Day!

hey i thought the Villari thread was closed!

marlon

[Senjojutsu]

hey i thought the Villari thread was closed!

marlon

Hello Marlon,

While I could say “touché” the genesis of the listing goes far beyond FVSSD and also takes into account for example:

… a group out of Pennsylvania

… a couple of mind control cults headed by “Korean Great Grandmasters” capable of mystical powers

… the subject organization of this thread

… some overseas franchise examples that border on pyramid schemes

… and on and on it goes

The sad thing is when back in ’68 if the founder had just opened up his original place as "Billy Bob’s American Kurroytee School” then half of these threads would never see the light of day.

Well other than from consumer issues around providing a crappy service.

[gmkuoha]

Hi again Mark,
If you don't mind me offering a little more advice, I would
probably go with the Kara-Ho guy. If I didn't have access to the Parker stylists that I do, I would try some kara-ho. I would try to see how tight
a relationship they have w/ Sam Kuoha.
Best of luck

If you tell me the instructor's name and area that they teach at, I can let you know if they are indeed a part of our organization as ALL black belts are sanctioned by our board and I promote them personally.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[MarkC]

Grandmaster Kuoha,
The instructor is Sensei Randy Zielke and I signed up a couple of weeks ago with him.
Just getting my feet wet, and so far , so good. It's interesting to see the similarities, as well as differences between Kara-Ho and my original style, as well as the American Kenpo group I attend also.
It's all good stuff! I hope my schedule and finances allow me to continue.

[MarkC]

And now this Moh Kempo school has started sending me emails...

[gmkuoha]

I believe I saw your name come through the mail for new membership. Welcome aboard and hope that your journey in Professor Chow's Chinese Kara-Ho Kempo System proves to be exciting and enjoyable. Because I do not get on these forums too much, if you have any questions, you can write me directly by asking Sensei Randy for my student's e-mail address or contact Shihan John DeWitt at info@karaho.com.

Sensei Randy is a very dedicated instructor in our system and tries to always do what is best for the system and the students. The good thing about it is that his instructor, Sensei Rod Martens, a national representative is nearby in Oregon. Have fun and hope to meet you someday.
Grandmaster