Lights out

[theletch1]

My nihon goshin aikido school will, on a fairly regular basis, run attack lines with the lights in the dojo off. The only light in the room is what filters in through the waiting room from the street and a couple of sky lights. We've done attacks from standing in the middle of a circle (nage looks at an individual and they attack), straight line attacks, multiples, and one drill where the student must walk between two rows of attackers who will attack at random from the front, side or back. These nights are great training. It really teaches you to rely on your other senses and to flow with a tech by feeling how your attacker is reacting.

How many of you train with this type of drill and if you do how do you feel it has helped you.

[Cryozombie]

Wev'e trained outdoors after dark... with just streetlights, or moonlight or whatever light was availible. Its pretty cool, much more challenging to fight this way

[TangSooGuy]

We have often trained with the lights out, outside in the dark, with eyes closed, or blindfolded for parts of classes.

It really adds something to your training, in my opinion, in that you can't always rely on your eyes to help you out of any given situation.

Doing self-defense, forms, breaking, or sparring blindfolded adds a whole extra dimension.

It does put added pressure n the part of the instructor though, to ensure that no one gets hurt.

For my 3rd Dan pre-test i had to spar 3 other black belts simultaneously while I was bindfolded. I pretty much got my butt kicked, but i got in a few good shots here and there, and it was a valuabe lesson in how we rely way to much on our eyes...

[Kimpatsu]

Call Daredevil. He'll win every time. :btg:

[KenpoTess]

we run the gauntlet in the dark with just light coming in from outside the studio.. or with blindfolds on.. with attackers coming from varied 'doorways'.. it's a good practice.. sometimes you're backed up against a wall.. or someone attacks from an alley. Think I'm gonna take it outside for the womens college class.. parked cars etc.. should be interesting..

[Ender]

we've done the lights out thing....sometimes with a strobe light...thats weird.

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Ender
we've done the lights out thing....sometimes with a strobe light...thats weird.

hahaa I bet it's weird.. two things come to mind.. Disco fighting and police car strobes flashing ~!!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Ender
we've done the lights out thing....sometimes with a strobe light...thats weird.
Did anyone suffer an epileptic attack?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
hahaa I bet it's weird.. two things come to mind.. Disco fighting and police car strobes flashing ~!!
Go to a nightclub in Brixton. You'll get both at the same venue...

[Shinzu]

im gonna have to try these things out in class. thanx for the great ideas!

[Ender]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
hahaa I bet it's weird.. two things come to mind.. Disco fighting and police car strobes flashing ~!!

*l..well if ya get in a fight at a dance club...you're prepared!

[clapping_tiger]

Iwould also like to thank you for the post. I never would have thought of that. I will have to suggest we do this too, afterall it makes perfect sense. You are probably more likely to be attack in a dark setting.

[rmcrobertson]

Nope, never.

I also haven't trained against recoiless rifles, nuclear holocausts, the Second Coming, asteroid impact, the establishment of a military dictatorship in the United States...

I apologize. But these fantasies of achieving invulnerability...not to mention the fact that if you train well, you shouldn't notice whether or not the lights are on...and the fact that a class or two with the lights out, when in your heart you KNOW you're pretty safe won't suffice...

Folks, we're amateurs, thank whoever....

Sure, train all whichways. Wednesday, Clyde ran techniques out of a chair...and that's fine. But...well, maybe it's just me.

Given the actual threats confronting Americans, wouldn't it be better to a) get a bath mat, b) make sure the electricals in the house are up to code, c) work on eliminating the sources of street violence, d) take a course in defensive driving, e) work on better diet?

I have a good friend who's a 3rd in tang soo do. He doesn't seem to mention lights out training...I'll have to ask.

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Nope, never.

I also haven't trained against recoiless rifles, nuclear holocausts, the Second Coming, asteroid impact, the establishment of a military dictatorship in the United States...

I apologize. But these fantasies of achieving invulnerability...not to mention the fact that if you train well, you shouldn't notice whether or not the lights are on...and the fact that a class or two with the lights out, when in your heart you KNOW you're pretty safe won't suffice...

Folks, we're amateurs, thank whoever....

Sure, train all whichways. Wednesday, Clyde ran techniques out of a chair...and that's fine. But...well, maybe it's just me.

Given the actual threats confronting Americans, wouldn't it be better to a) get a bath mat, b) make sure the electricals in the house are up to code, c) work on eliminating the sources of street violence, d) take a course in defensive driving, e) work on better diet?

I have a good friend who's a 3rd in tang soo do. He doesn't seem to mention lights out training...I'll have to ask.

I dont think that it has anything to do with making yourself invulnerable to anything. Its just another way to break the routine from the same old training routine. Clyde doing the tech. out of a chair, IMO, is a great thing to do. Why? It puts yourself in a different situation. Once your reach a certain level, you should start to explore the what ifs! Granted, there is no way to possibly prepare yourself for every single situation you're going to come across, but then again, you can ask yourself, why have so many tech. then? There are tech. for a left punch, right punch, hair grab, bear hug, front and rear, and then list goes on and on and on and on!! Are we not training for different situations here??-----my point--- If you are seated and dont have a chance to get up before you are attacked, you should know what you are going to be able to do/not do. Walking to your car at 2am after leaving the movies---what if you get attacked? Are you going to be able to see as good as you can in the dojo? I dont think so.

Its no different than training in street clothes. Even if its something that you dont do in class, why not do it on your own? We dont wear that comfy gi everywhere we go, right. Training in shoes is going to give you a much different feel to your kicking.

And before the bashing starts, because I can already see it coming--- I'm not telling anyone how to train. If its something that you choose not to do, thats fine. But, just because someone else does it, does not make it wrong.

Mike

[KenpoTess]

"To each his own" :)


That's what makes us all individuals.. which is a good thing.. how boring we would all be if we were cookie cutter clones in training or in any other way :)

[rmcrobertson]

I realize this response is useless.

But two points again:

First, these posts suggest that at some point, all situations will have been covered and the practitioner will become invulnerable.

Second--for all the claims of practicality--you are in far more danger while driving than you will ever be "on the street," unless you've deliberately chosen to walk in way over your head.

It's fine--even great to train all which ways. But the claims that it's necessary, that it's practical...that's the movies. That's "Bloodsport."


Incidentally, maybe there's a chance that those much-despised impractical, worthless and old-fashioned kata teach this sort of stuff. Especially if you do them with your eyes shut.

[KenpoTess]

Only speaking for our school.. we like to break up the routine and do new things.. not necessarily trying to gear ourselves up for the 'what if's'.. just to add something different and challenging.. We have Fun at our studio.. :) We sometimes spar in streetclothes, and we do take downs at times when we spar.. we also do our techniques from the ground position when we can..
I'm not saying this is going to help us in any kind of reality situation.. That is a personal issue that each individual will have to deal with if an attack arises.. Will they be ready? Let's hope so. .will Lights out training have helped them? Who knows.. maybe.. maybe not.. but again.. it's all shaded in tones of black and white..


Nobody here is wrong in their viewpoints and ideas..

[MJS]

But two points again:

First, these posts suggest that at some point, all situations will have been covered and the practitioner will become invulnerable.


I havent seen anywhere on here where these posts are suggesting that. Nobody has ever said that you will be invulnerable, but it will aid in your being prepared for situations that you might come across.


Second--for all the claims of practicality--you are in far more danger while driving than you will ever be "on the street," unless you've deliberately chosen to walk in way over your head.


How are you going to realize that you are in over your head until you are already in the situation??


It's fine--even great to train all which ways. But the claims that it's necessary, that it's practical...that's the movies. That's "Bloodsport."

I dont recall anybody saying that it was necessary. Its just giving you another way of doing something.


Incidentally, maybe there's a chance that those much-despised impractical, worthless and old-fashioned kata teach this sort of stuff. Especially if you do them with your eyes shut.

How is doing kata going to help you fight in the dark? Yes, I have done kata with my eyes closed, but we are talking about 2 different things here. Doing something with our eyes closed, and having them open, but being in low or no light conditions.

Mike

[MJS]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KenpoTess
Only speaking for our school.. we like to break up the routine and do new things.. not necessarily trying to gear ourselves up for the 'what if's'.. just to add something different and challenging.. We have Fun at our studio.. :) We sometimes spar in streetclothes, and we do take downs at times when we spar.. we also do our techniques from the ground position when we can..
I'm not saying this is going to help us in any kind of reality situation.. That is a personal issue that each individual will have to deal with if an attack arises.. Will they be ready? Let's hope so. .will Lights out training have helped them? Who knows.. maybe.. maybe not.. but again.. it's all shaded in tones of black and white..


Nobody here is wrong in their viewpoints and ideas..

Tess- You bring up alot of good points, and you are correct-- Will it help you? Who knows. It may and it may not. Doing something different is a great way of breaking up the same old routine of doing things. You mention sparring in street clothes, doing takedowns, etc. all of which are excellent things to do.

Again, will it help? IMO, anything different that you do in your training will help in some way!:D

Mike

[Ender]

anytime you have something unexpected it helps the practitioner, recognize, analyze and create a plan of action/reaction. Sure some may a bit wierd, but it adds to the fun, and breaks up the routine.

[rmcrobertson]

Sigh.

1) Invulnerability. Beyond the fact that these claims about varying training tell any half-decent brown/black belt what they know already, there's the way that these ideas get piled higher and higher, with more and more obscure training methodologies added to more. What's the logical outcome? If enough is added, then all eventualities become completely--not even manageable, but masterable. Look, too, at the stle in which such claims are couched: it never seems to be just, hey, we do this cool thing...but always, we train in a way nobody else ever thought of, we are prepared and you ain't. There are rare exceptions--Ender and Tess, for example, who write that such training, "breaks up the monotony," or, "is fun."

2) Practicality. My point was that IF we're going to be realistic about threats, let's get realistic; not only are there no ninjas in the parking lot (thanx for a great line, Mr. Chapel), but a) threats that aren't ordinarily considered to be part of martial arts training are a lot more common--if I were gonna fool around, I'd have students take defensive driving classes, courses in diet and anger management, etc...and b) any rational martial artist learns to assess threat...in kenpo, it's part of, "acceptance," and "environmental awareness...," considerations that I guess just aren't very sexy.

3) And as for the kata not helping with fighting in the dark...why would they be LESS helpful than stooging around with the studio lights out? For one thing, I seriously doubt that anybody trains in a studio in which they CAN get things really dark...no windows?

4) It's funny. Why are topics like these more interesting than learning how to kick properly, how to block, decent manners, etc.? Why's it sexier to discuss knives, fighting, etc.?

5) And sorry. Differences of opinion and approach notwithstanding, it is NOT all good.

Anyway, thanks for reading today's rant.

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
[B]Sigh.

[quote]1) Invulnerability. Beyond the fact that these claims about varying training tell any half-decent brown/black belt what they know already, there's the way that these ideas get piled higher and higher, with more and more obscure training methodologies added to more. What's the logical outcome? If enough is added, then all eventualities become completely--not even manageable, but masterable. Look, too, at the stle in which such claims are couched: it never seems to be just, hey, we do this cool thing...but always, we train in a way nobody else ever thought of, we are prepared and you ain't. There are rare exceptions--Ender and Tess, for example, who write that such training, "breaks up the monotony," or, "is fun."

notice in my first post, I mention that it breaks up the regular routine of doing things.


2) Practicality. My point was that IF we're going to be realistic about threats, let's get realistic; not only are there no ninjas in the parking lot (thanx for a great line, Mr. Chapel), but a) threats that aren't ordinarily considered to be part of martial arts training are a lot more common--if I were gonna fool around, I'd have students take defensive driving classes, courses in diet and anger management, etc...and b) any rational martial artist learns to assess threat...in kenpo, it's part of, "acceptance," and "environmental awareness...," considerations that I guess just aren't very sexy.

This has nothing to do with Ninjas. It has to do with a very real situation...if you are walking outside at night. Do you never go out at night Rob? I dont think it has anything to do with fooling around. Oh yes, God forbid we do something that isnt traditional, right.


3) And as for the kata not helping with fighting in the dark...why would they be LESS helpful than stooging around with the studio lights out? For one thing, I seriously doubt that anybody trains in a studio in which they CAN get things really dark...no windows?

Well, obviously you have to wait until its dark outside right?? Why would they be less helpful?? Well, a fight or SD situation is not going to be preset like a kata.


4) It's funny. Why are topics like these more interesting than learning how to kick properly, how to block, decent manners, etc.? Why's it sexier to discuss knives, fighting, etc.?

Yup, you're right. There is certainly alot to learn in the arts. Nobody ever said that you had to focus solely on this type of training. Doing it every now and then is a great way to take a break from constantly going over kicks, punches, kata.


5) And sorry. Differences of opinion and approach notwithstanding, it is NOT all good.

Yup, another difference of opinion. I dont see anybody forcing you to do this Rob. If you choose not to then fine, but please try to refrain from looking down on every suggestion that someone makes. Just because you are a negative person, does not mean we all have to be. Nothing wrong with an open mind!

Mike

[theletch1]

Wow, little did I know that sharing an enjoyable training experience would turn into such a debate. I could train for the next 50 years in every conceivable scenario and not become invincible. That's not even a concept that I espouse in my training. The possibility that I will be attacked in a low light situation is high. I work nights and must be in darkened parking lots and warehouses to perform my job. Do I think training in the dark makes me unbeatable in this situation? Certainly not. We've trained from a chair and done a great deal of suwari waza (techs from a kneeling position.) I have no dillusions about being invincible after these drills either. It's like others here have said. It breaks up the monotony and gives you the opportunity to try out techs in different situations so that on the off chance that you need those techs in those situations you have at least been exposed to it and not be completely out of your depth.

MA to me is not about invincibility. It's simply about improvement and trying my best to even the odds as much as possible.

[rmcrobertson]

While I basically agree with theLetch's viewpoint, Mike, I see that that "it's all good," viewpoint has gone right out the window where disagreements with the way you see training are concerned.

Just to be clear, I think you raise valid points. I also think you don't pay attention to other folks' points when they vary much from yours...and you've a habit of personal attacks in the place of arguing about ideas.

I think I've probably made myself clear enough to anyone who wants to read what I wrote, but here're the fundamental issues as I see them:

a) all this stuff about environmental awareness, etc., is quite true and really very traditional;
b) basics--and those "worthless," forms--are there in part to establish a ground on which all sorts of things can be built;
c) boredom in martial arts training is one of the "defense mechanisms of the ego," we all struggle with;
d) the dream of technology without responsibility or knowledge is endemic to our culture.

That's it for me on this thread.

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
[quote]While I basically agree with theLetch's viewpoint, Mike, I see that that "it's all good," viewpoint has gone right out the window where disagreements with the way you see training are concerned.

IMO, you are the only one that seems to be disagreeing with what is being said here. This forum is to discuss ideas and give feedback. I never said that the way I train is "The Ultimate Way" of doing anything.


Just to be clear, I think you raise valid points. I also think you don't pay attention to other folks' points when they vary much from yours...and you've a habit of personal attacks in the place of arguing about ideas.

Thats funny....it seems that everybody else that made a post on this so far, seems to think that training in the dark is a good idea. I do pay attn. to what others say. I'm just trying to keep my training moving ahead, not going backwards. This is 2003, not 1700. While there has always been crime, you cant tell me that things are the same as they were 300 yrs ago.


I think I've probably made myself clear enough to anyone who wants to read what I wrote, but here're the fundamental issues as I see them:

a) all this stuff about environmental awareness, etc., is quite true and really very traditional;
b) basics--and those "worthless," forms--are there in part to establish a ground on which all sorts of things can be built;
c) boredom in martial arts training is one of the "defense mechanisms of the ego," we all struggle with;
d) the dream of technology without responsibility or knowledge is endemic to our culture.

That's it for me on this thread.

Again, I dont think that anybody has said that this is something that we all have to do. Let me ask you 2 questions.

1- With all of the tech. that are in the Parker system, why are there so many? Are we, at some point in our training, going to be attacked in every way that the defenses present? Of course not, but we still train all those tech. We are preparing ourselves in the event that we find ourselves in that situation. So training in the dark is no different.

2- Seeing that you think that all of these ideas are useless, what do you think that training should be like?

Mike

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, but I see no point in responding. Anything further would just turn into another of those, "gee this stuff's already in kenpo," vs. "no it's not," arguments that we've had before.

I guess I'll just have to accept being painted as a hidebound traditionalist whose only interests are the dead mechanical repetition of the unconsidered past.

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Sorry, but I see no point in responding. Anything further would just turn into another of those, "gee this stuff's already in kenpo," vs. "no it's not," arguments that we've had before.

I guess I'll just have to accept being painted as a hidebound traditionalist whose only interests are the dead mechanical repetition of the unconsidered past.

Ok!

Mike

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Sorry, but I see no point in responding. Anything further would just turn into another of those, "gee this stuff's already in kenpo," vs. "no it's not," arguments that we've had before.

I guess I'll just have to accept being painted as a hidebound traditionalist whose only interests are the dead mechanical repetition of the unconsidered past.

I dont think that any of us here are trying to compare 1 art vs another art. We are simply talking about the question that was originally posted--Do any of us train in the dark? Anytime something different is added, IMO, it is done so there will be a little more varity in the classes. Granted, I really dont think that there is a way to 100% prepare ourselves for every single situation we will encounter, but its still fun to play around with different senarios.

I'm still interested in hearing how you think that training should be?? I probably won't get an answer, but I still had to ask 1 more time.

Mike

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, but if you want to discuss it, you might want to consider why I'd want to discuss with someone who writes, "I'm just trying to keep my training moving ahead, not going backwards. This is 2003, not 1700. While there has always been crime, you cant tell me that things are the same as they were 300 yrs ago."

I guess I'm just stuck in 1700...or maybe 1989...

The problem, Mike, is that I don't agree with your fundamental premises and description of reality, I want different things out of martial arts, and my remarks upon this keep getting described as out-of-date, frozen in time, and unaware...

By the way, folks in 1700 knew a thing or two about hand-to-hand...

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
[quote]Sorry, but if you want to discuss it, you might want to consider why I'd want to discuss with someone who writes, "I'm just trying to keep my training moving ahead, not going backwards. This is 2003, not 1700. While there has always been crime, you cant tell me that things are the same as they were 300 yrs ago."

Rob- In regards to the above comment that I made. Every single day of the year, things change. People all over the world are working on ways to improve things. From how to make a car safer in a crash to finding a cure to a disease. The same thing goes for the MA's. If someone has an idea on how to make something better or comes up with a new drill to improve your skills, I feel that it is worth looking at. I have said before that we all train for different reasons. Obviously, yours are much different than mine are. I study the arts to learn to defend myself, and because it is something that I have been doing for a while now. I dont think that this has anything to do with becoming the next NHB champ, but instead, to improve my skills. I may never have to fight someone in the dark, but there might come a day when I will. There are also people who work at night, and this is something that would greatly benefit them.


I guess I'm just stuck in 1700...or maybe 1989...

Again, it all goes back to what we want from the arts.


The problem, Mike, is that I don't agree with your fundamental premises and description of reality, I want different things out of martial arts, and my remarks upon this keep getting described as out-of-date, frozen in time, and unaware...

Thats fine that you want something different. But, dont look down upon someone elses ideas just because you dont approve. Again, I ask the question for the 3rd time, and am still waiting for an answer. What do you want out of your training, and what do you think training should be like?


By the way, folks in 1700 knew a thing or two about hand-to-hand...

I'm sure that they did. I'm also sure though, that things have changed.

Mike

[rmcrobertson]

Generally speaking, I agree with your comments about what training should be. That's easy to do. They're truisms.

Details? Sorry, no point.

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Generally speaking, I agree with your comments about what training should be. That's easy to do. They're truisms.

Details? Sorry, no point.

Ok!!

Mike