Robert Bussey.

[arnisador]

The current (Oct. 2003) issue of Black Belt has an article featuring Robert Bussey. It's hype on terrorism, but it presents him very much as a security professional and makes no mention of ninjutsu (that I noticed).

[Jay Bell]

It shouldn't...he hasn't studied Ninpo in what....two decades, I believe (someone correct me if that's off)? His security work is very much his own beast.

[arnisador]

Do you know if he bases his specific techniques off of his earlier ninpo training or something else?

[Jay Bell]

I don't really know. The last time I saw him do any Ninpo (albeit badly) was back on his Ninjutsu videos.

[Cthulhu]

After he stopped actively practicing ninjutsu, wasn't Bussey head of some Robert Bussey Warrior International or somesuch?

Cthulhu

[Jay Bell]

Yeah he sure was...they called him the "King of Combat"

*snicker*

[arnisador]

I remember RBWI. I wonder if it's folded? I'm guessing Yes.

Hmmmmmm:
http://www.busseystyle.com/about/legacy_rbwi.shtml


Considered by many to be America's foremost authority on the subject of realistic combat, Bussey retired in 1997 as C.E.O. of Robert Bussey's Warrior International (RBWI). Later, as Chairman of the "Centre For the Advancement of Protective Studies", Bussey developed the research that contributed to the inception of Genuine Bussey Style.


And:
http://www.busseystyle.com/resources/magazine-reign1.shtml



Robert Bussey's Warrior International Sat Atop the Ninjutsu World for 20 Years

[Ender]

never heard of him..*shrug

[Jay Bell]

Robert Bussey's Warrior International Sat Atop the Ninjutsu World for 20 Years

What garbage...

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Ender
never heard of him..*shrug

I remember him from Ninja magazine back when I was a teen... he always had a brown and white camo Gi on...

[pknox]

I do remember hearing about him in relation to the aforementioned organization, and also him having a bunch of Panther videos. Didn't he also have an "earn your black belt by mail" program as well, or am I confusing him with someone else?

[twinkletoes]

I love the camo gi's. What a statement (of fashion, if nothing else). It's like "WHOA! How did you find that gi? No, I mean it.....how did you find it? ;) "

I don't think I could ever train with someone who wore a camo gi. Mostly because he would constantly disappear from sight, like when kermit the frog stands in front of something green and covers his eyes....

~TT

[arnisador]

Ashida Kim had the same kind of outfit, no?

[Jay Bell]

*chuckle* Yeah...

Bussey did study under Hatsumi sensei for a short period of time. This was during Stephen Hayes' training in Japan.

[Bujingodai]

I am torn on the issue. I have emailed RB a few times. He seemes pretty proffesional. He doesn't talk anything of the Ninjutsu. Now people speak of his fakeness. He received a Yondan under Hatsumi, back when the training was very 1-1 and hard style. So then he would be a good 4th Dan one would imagine. Why does he regard so much guff then. But I wasn't around then so I don't know verbatim. How much of this is fact, did he not get a Yondan from Hatsumi.

[Jay Bell]

He recieved Yondan from Nagato sensei so that he could take the Godan test. He was a Shodan, I believe, before this.

He received Yondan and left the country...and hasn't been back since.

[MJS]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
It shouldn't...he hasn't studied Ninpo in what....two decades, I believe (someone correct me if that's off)? His security work is very much his own beast.

You're right! His main focus now is on his new org.

Mike

[MJS]

Originally posted by arnisador
Do you know if he bases his specific techniques off of his earlier ninpo training or something else?

Even back when he had his RBWI, he modified the traditional Ninjutus tech. to make them more applicable for the street. As for what he's teaching now, it looks to me like it still has a hint of Ninjutsu in it, just spiced up a little!

Mike

[MJS]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
What garbage...

I dont think I'd call it garbage. I think that the main reason that people got upset with what he was doing, and talked about him so much was due to the fact that he was improving Ninjutsu. Look at Hayes. He was one of the biggest people to talk about Bussey and now look at him----he's doing the same thing as Bussey! He is calling his art To Shin Do----to me that sounds like he's done some modification.

Mike

[Jay Bell]

What I was referring to was that Bussey didn't sit atop anything regarding Ninjutsu for any amount of time.

[Deaf]

Originally posted by MJS
I dont think I'd call it garbage. I think that the main reason that people got upset with what he was doing, and talked about him so much was due to the fact that he was improving Ninjutsu. Look at Hayes. He was one of the biggest people to talk about Bussey and now look at him----he's doing the same thing as Bussey! He is calling his art To Shin Do----to me that sounds like he's done some modification.

Mike

Well...I think the main argument is that Bussey hasn't been associated with ninjutsu for quite some time. And saying that he is a knowledgeable person in such art is well...."garbage"!


Given that Hayes is/was one of the biggest people to talk about Bussey...well...that goes to show ya! Modification? Nay, I call it a totally different style!

[pknox]

Originally posted by MJS
Even back when he had his RBWI, he modified the traditional Ninjutus tech. to make them more applicable for the street. As for what he's teaching now, it looks to me like it still has a hint of Ninjutsu in it, just spiced up a little!

Mike

Well, he is still associating himself with Ninjutsu in some form. He has his set of videos in the new Century catalog, and each one has some aspect of "Ninja" in the title (Ninja Combat Tactics v1-3, Ninja Weapons Tactics v 1-4, Ninja Man Exclusive Video Interview). I'm pretty sure these are the old videos, but Bussey hasn't told Century to modify the titles by removing any "Ninja" references.

A google search also shows that he has changed his focus more into the protection/bodyguarding area -- his new style is called "Genuine Bussey Style." Per his website (www.busseystyle.com), he claims to have retired as CEO of RBWI in 1997, and since developed this new style. He does have sections for RBWI and Ninjutsu on his current site, so there again appears to be some connection there..

[MJS]

Originally posted by Deaf
[quote]Well...I think the main argument is that Bussey hasn't been associated with ninjutsu for quite some time. And saying that he is a knowledgeable person in such art is well...."garbage"!

I was referring to when Bussey was still a part of his original org. RBWI. When he still had that org. he was making changes in the way the techs. were done.



Given that Hayes is/was one of the biggest people to talk about Bussey...well...that goes to show ya! Modification? Nay, I call it a totally different style!

I agree that Hayes was and probably still is one of the most influential people in Ninjutsu. His To Shin Do style that he teaches now is definately different. He does offer at his school, a time when the traditional aspects of Ninjutsu can be looked at.

Mike

[MJS]

Originally posted by pknox
[quote]Well, he is still associating himself with Ninjutsu in some form. He has his set of videos in the new Century catalog, and each one has some aspect of "Ninja" in the title (Ninja Combat Tactics v1-3, Ninja Weapons Tactics v 1-4, Ninja Man Exclusive Video Interview). I'm pretty sure these are the old videos, but Bussey hasn't told Century to modify the titles by removing any "Ninja" references.

Correct! I still see the videos advertised in the catalogs. While I have not seen them, I'm sure that it is the modified Nonjutsu that he was teaching at RBWI. Its still Ninjutsu, just an abridged version.


A google search also shows that he has changed his focus more into the protection/bodyguarding area -- his new style is called "Genuine Bussey Style." Per his website (www.busseystyle.com), he claims to have retired as CEO of RBWI in 1997, and since developed this new style. He does have sections for RBWI and Ninjutsu on his current site, so there again appears to be some connection there..

Correct again! GBS, is his new org. I have read about it online, as well as seen the video clips of some of his students doing tech. I have also spoken to his Boston, MA inst. Alex Iglecia numerous times. I was planning a trip to see Mr. Iglecia last year, but do to my work schedule, I was unable to go. I am still very interested in taking a look at what they have to offer.

Mike

[pknox]

Originally posted by MJS
I am still very interested in taking a look at what they have to offer.

Mike

You should take a look at this month's Black Belt then -- Bussey is featured in an article.

[heretic888]

I am torn on the issue. I have emailed RB a few times. He seemes pretty proffesional. He doesn't talk anything of the Ninjutsu. Now people speak of his fakeness. He received a Yondan under Hatsumi, back when the training was very 1-1 and hard style. So then he would be a good 4th Dan one would imagine. Why does he regard so much guff then. But I wasn't around then so I don't know verbatim. How much of this is fact, did he not get a Yondan from Hatsumi.

Probably because of some of his claims and positions back in the 80's. Just run through a search on blackbelt magazine's website.

[MJS]

Originally posted by pknox
You should take a look at this month's Black Belt then -- Bussey is featured in an article.

I read it. I thought it was pretty interesting and he definately made some very good points!

Mike

[r erman]

I think the problem most people have with Bussey is that he rode the hype of the ninja label even though much of what he did was not ninjutsu. Also, his wild outfits, high kicks, and trademark growling, are quite a bit different from mainline Bujinkan--though most everybody had some kinda cammo back in 1980's ninjutsu:)

It's also maybe helpfull to remember that Bussey was around 23/24 when he reached Yondan under Nagato. Being that young with one of the highest ranks outside of Japan(at that time) might explain a little. Plus, I think ninpo was still trying to find it's own image in the West at that time, so modification may have been an implied ok(godai method anyone?).

I remember talking with a student of Bud Malmstrom's back in 93, and I asked what people thought of Bussey(I hadn't been inculcated into Booj politics at the time), he snorted and replied "Bussey is what you might call a Christian Ninja" and then he snorted again. I was utterly amazed at how divisive people were when talking about him.

But, I was also amazed when I first saw classical ninpo and how different it felt/looked from what was on Bussey's ninja videos--in still pictures, besides some of the kicks, you really couldn't tell much difference between Hayes and Bussey.

Now personally, I don't think anyone can doubt Robert Bussey's prowess(I wouldn't wanna fight him), or the effectiveness of what and how he teaches--people try to knock him because of how Scott Morris did in the UFC II, but they have a tendency to forget guys like Steve Jennum and Jeremy Horn, too.

He spent a lot of time in the mags back in the 80's, so it might surprise some of his detractors that he got to a point in the early 90's were he wanted to move away from the ninja image--although some of his people didn't. I think that was one of the contributing factors to him dissolving RBWI, it got away from him, and he wasn't comfortable with some of the things people were doing in his name.

Honestly, I'm not comfortable with Bussey being a proponent of ninpo(although you can still see "trademark" techniques like ganseki, oni kudaki, musha dori...etc), but I've always liked what he does as an eclectic system. I really liked alot of the stuff he did in RBWI. Those videos are much better than the older 'ninja' videos, IMO. I like the fact that RBWI was a much more cohesive system of movement than, say, JKD--and It was much more based in grappling(clinch and ground) than a lot of other ecelctic groups were at the time.

All in all, irregardless of what people think of him, I think he genuinely wants to instill effective self defense methods to his people. And I think he's pretty knowledgeable about his craft, in that regard.

Anyway, I think I'm done:)

[Kreth]

Originally posted by r erman
--people try to knock him because of how Scott Morris did in the UFC II, but they have a tendency to forget guys like Steve Jennum and Jeremy Horn, too.
Um... not sure about Horn, but Jennum ended up winning his UFC (forget which one) by virtue of jumping into the finals fresh as an alternate, against a guy who had already fought several matches. There was a huge controversy over his win, and the rules regarding alternates have since been changed.

Jeff

[r erman]

Originally posted by Kreth
Um... not sure about Horn, but Jennum ended up winning his UFC (forget which one) by virtue of jumping into the finals fresh as an alternate, against a guy who had already fought several matches. There was a huge controversy over his win, and the rules regarding alternates have since been changed.

Jeff

You are absolutely right(although the guy he fought had had only one fight, I think, not several)--he also won his fight against a very large boxer in the next UFC, and then got spanked by Tank Abbot in another UFC. The point is he did pretty well overall(2 out of 3 ain't bad).

[Pyros]

The story I heard was this:

He was an arrogant shodan. He demanded that he really should be licenced as a full instructor. In Bujinkan this means you have to be 5th dan (i.e. have passed the "sakki" test of sensing and evading an attack from behind). He was then reluctantly given 4th dan and told to go try the sakki test. If he passes he gets a licence to teach. Bussey left the country and never tried to pass the test, never got the instructor licence. Later when asked about it, he gave some lame excuse about being a Christian and the sakki-test was against his beliefs or something stupid. No offence to any Christians, but surely Bussey had known what is required when he begun demanding instructorship in the first place...

[heretic888]

Later when asked about it, he gave some lame excuse about being a Christian and the sakki-test was against his beliefs or something stupid.

I find this claim of his very interesting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't several of the Bujinkan shidoshi "Christian" as well??

[Dennis_Mahon]

I have to admitt some confusion as well; I'm somewhat versed in Christian theology, I can't think of an objection to the sakki test based on mainstream Christian philosophy.

[Cryozombie]

A lot of Christians would interpret that as "Psychic" ability or "Spiritualism" which is "Magic" which is in the realm of Satan...

[Dennis_Mahon]

A lot of Christians would interpret that as "Psychic" ability or "Spiritualism" which is "Magic" which is in the realm of Satan...

Well, that presumes that it's a supernatural ability, rather than a natural skill.

[r erman]

Originally posted by Dennis_Mahon
Well, that presumes that it's a supernatural ability, rather than a natural skill.

Right, which in the bible-belt most christians do. Lord forbid another culture have methods of developing sensitivity to others' intentions not contained in the bible(at least not obviously:) )--that might lend credence to the validity of the asian spritual/mind-science traditions...

As far as Bussey goes, all I'm saying is he gets a bad rap, which deservedly, or not, has little to do with his prowess as a martial artist, or the efficacy of what he teaches.

I know a lot of very good-hearted, immensely talented 'warriors' who want nothing to do with the trappings or culture of asian fighting arts. These people have found a path that works for them. Whose place is it to judge that?

[Karasu Tengu]

Has RB ever stated where and from whom he received his terrorism training? Having worked in the field at one time and not one who has followed his career since seeing his name in the MA mags in the 80's. Just curious.

[heretic888]

Right, which in the bible-belt most christians do. Lord forbid another culture have methods of developing sensitivity to others' intentions not contained in the bible(at least not obviously )--that might lend credence to the validity of the asian spritual/mind-science traditions...

I'm going to have to agree here.

Most of the "Christians" that I know or have read that do have contentions with things such as "meditation skill" and "psychic ability" of any kind do claim it "comes from Satan" or "is a manifestation of demonic powers".

I got a good chuckle in this one interview of a Christian pastor in which he claimed the Buddha (whom, like Jesus, I doubt ever existed in the historical sense) was an "agent of Satan". Oh, and you don't want to even hear the fundies' interpretation of kundalini yoga's "serpent energy"!!

It seems to me to all stem from a deep-rooted fear that certain other religions, cultures, etc. might actually have something to them and theirs not being the only "right" one.


not contained in the bible(at least not obviously )

What? You mean there might be more to the Bible than a literal interpretation like most "Christian leaders" tell the public??

Nawww...... :rolleyes:

[arnisador]

I've split the Historical Jesus discussion to another thread, in The Study:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10609

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[r erman]

Bussey is pretty well known in some tactical circles. He has(had?) a close working relationship with Masad Ayoob--Bussey was out-sourced' as a H2H teacher for many of Ayoob's conferences. He's friends with, and respected by, Tony Blauer who happens to be the Cat's meow to a lot of tactical people. Although, I think a lot of his training is through personal interaction with those involved in military/LEO agencies...

[pknox]

Originally posted by r erman
Bussey is pretty well known in some tactical circles. He has(had?) a close working relationship with Masad Ayoob--Bussey was out-sourced' as a H2H teacher for many of Ayoob's conferences. He's friends with, and respected by, Tony Blauer who happens to be the Cat's meow to a lot of tactical people. Although, I think a lot of his training is through personal interaction with those involved in military/LEO agencies...

I'm aware of Blauer, but who's Ayoob?

[Cryozombie]

I have some Ayoob Videos

Ayoob is, among other thing, a Cop, and he teaches combat hangunning and survival stuff, as well as anti-terrorist training, hostage negotiation... etc...

[pknox]

Thanks! Does he have a particular system/style he is involved with?