how do you train against edged weapons?
What techniques are your favorite?

#1. rule #1 get outta there. Rule #2 use or improvise a weapon against a blade. #3 Then utilize empty hand tactics with the mentality that you are a "walking dead person." This is the last resort.

#2. Favorite techniques (assuming I am empty hand and they are armed with a blade) are locking/control and disarming techniques. Yes, I know that these are difficult to apply in combat, but I don't believe that they are useless. I like them simply because they are "fun" to train.

If it's too late to run or talk my way out, or whatever and the knife is coming than IDEALLY

Move target away from incoming knife while diverting knife. I tend to use the backs of my arms. (Kali like)

Gain control of knife hand/arm while begining counter attack. A method I like to use is one from a Mr. Sir.......(Peter maybe)Something I can't remember his name but he was from the UK and was knighted by the queen for his contirbution to the police.

This is if you see it coming, if it is too late than perhaps moving yourself so the knife makes contact with a non-lethal target.

These tactics have served me well during spontenaity drills. A friend of mine did something similar a while back when he was attacked in a pool hall by an insane woman. He never really got into MA so it was good to see someone do this out of reflex.

In my opinion knives are a tricky thing to deal with. Awarness is a big help when you think you're in an area were an attack could be more likely.

Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy
If it's too late to run or talk my way out, or whatever and the knife is coming than IDEALLY

Move target away from incoming knife while diverting knife. I tend to use the backs of my arms. (Kali like)

Gain control of knife hand/arm while begining counter attack. A method I like to use is one from a Mr. Sir.......(Peter maybe)Something I can't remember his name but he was from the UK and was knighted by the queen for his contirbution to the police.

This is if you see it coming, if it is too late than perhaps moving yourself so the knife makes contact with a non-lethal target.

These tactics have served me well during spontenaity drills. A friend of mine did something similar a while back when he was attacked in a pool hall by an insane woman. He never really got into MA so it was good to see someone do this out of reflex.

In my opinion knives are a tricky thing to deal with. Awarness is a big help when you think you're in an area were an attack could be more likely.


Sir Peter Boatman good stuff!

Thats it.

Sir Peter Boatman. Yes thank you. Very simple yet very effective in my opionion.

I find the funky chicken dance to be the most effective. It either distracts them with laughter so you can run, or it draws enought attention so they run.....

I like kodegaesh (sp) for a thrust to the abs. If done properly it can be done in such a way that your attacker gets his own knife in the face or throat on the way to the ground. I've done it in the dojo but never had to try it on the street. As with any other attack, if something can go wrong it probably will so the favorite defence will be whatever pops into my mind in the split second it takes the knife to cover the space between my attacker and myself.

I find the funky chicken dance to be the most effective. It either distracts them with laughter so you can run, or it draws enought attention so they run.....
This won't work if the guy is a butcher or is carrying a boning knife. You're just asking to be KFC.:rofl:

Originally posted by theletch1
This won't work if the guy is a butcher or is carrying a boning knife. You're just asking to be KFC.:rofl:

Good point, I need to rethink my tactics in that situation........

I prefer my naginata, since I can slice and chop and use the blunt end to strike. It has great advantages over swords. Favourite technique is to block with the blunt edge, then a diagonal cut from the left shoulder to the right calf and a short chop to the left ankle in case the opponent steps back.

Also nice is kodachi versus sword. Wielding the kodachi [short sword] requires excellent footwork and the ability to close distance while slashing at the opponents exposed bits. Difficult, but satisfying when it works...

How do you conceal the Naginata or kodachi?? I haven't seen a holster for them yet.

Generally it is the same as any weapons situation. Filipino training is about adaptation and translation so I tend to treat it the same as most other situations. There are some specifics that have to be considered (thus adaptation and translation), but I would use the same basic techniques here as in an empty hand attacker... and so on.

The degree of force/violence that can be legally justified in my response may be an easier way to discuss this for me.

But basically its:

1. MOVE! avoid direct attacks with lateral and angular movement
See "Surviving edged weapons" great wake up call video.

2. Deflect and damage the limb controlling the weapon hopefully leading to weapon ejection or controlling that limb if an avenue of escape doesn't open up or retreat puts you even more in the hurt locker.

3. Control the weapon and beat the living SH)# out of key targets that will create mechanical dysfunction/pain (elbows, knees, brain pan...) using impact techniques as opposed to throws, locks... I don't trust the margin of error on the street when the environment can really ruin a beautiful studio/dojo technique (ice, gravel, uneven ground...) they have their place, but not when a mistake can let him drive the force of falling behind a knife thrust, even by mistake.

4. If you have absolutely been unable to escape and have successfully stopped the attacker, run. Forget disarms, escorting him to the police station, blah... get out of there and report it as soon as possible. Get medically checked out ASAP too because there could be injury that you don't feel in the fight or flight mode that could be life threatening.

Paul Martin

Get medically checked out ASAP too because there could be injury that you don't feel in the fight or flight mode that could be life threatening. Good point, I broke 3 bones in my hand during a fight and didn't realize it was damaged at all until the next morning when it was swollen to double it's normal size. It's amazing what an adrenal dump will do to you.

Originally posted by Lawman9
How do you conceal the Naginata or kodachi?? I haven't seen a holster for them yet.
Conceal? Why?
We're talking training with/against edged weapons here, are we not? Training is done in the dojo.

Originally posted by Reprobate
Conceal? Why?
We're talking training with/against edged weapons here, are we not? Training is done in the dojo.

But given that this is the general self defence forum, you aren't likely to have a naginata on you when you're attacked on the street. Not unless you live in a VERY liberal area!

Go get one of the giant red marker. Have a friend pretend to attack you with the giant red marker as if it was a knife. USe whatever technique or tricks you have to defend yourself or disarm the attack. Now count the red lines on your face, arms, hands, chest, stomach, and even legs. Do you still think you will live to see the next sun rise had that been a real attack? enuff said.......

LOVE IT! There are actual tournaments with chalk line knives that do the same thing. It is a big wake up call.

Another great wake up call is "Surviving Edged Weapons" produced by Palladin Press. It is primarily geared towards LAO, but still has great info.


Paul Martin

SWCA Knife Defense (http://www.themartialist.com/0603/swcaknife.htm)

I read the SWCA article and I have a few comments: the techniques shown look a lot like aikido tanto-tori techniques [first one looks like kote gaeshi].
Also, while I agree that someone who attacks an unarmed person with a knife deserves 'no mercy', remember that if you're caught breaking someone's wrist or elbow, you better be able to prove that this person:
-attacked you [= the aggressor]
-used a weapon [can get lost in the fight]
-had no reason to attack you [no provocation]
And that you had no way other than to defend yourself [back against the wall].
Otherwise you might be up for inflicting Grievous Bodily Harm.

Another thing, unrelated to the article but related to this topic:
Defense against edged weapons will only work if you observe the weapon. Thus, while some techniques will work against someone who waves a knife around and subsequently tries to stab you, no technique on earth will protect you from someone who is intent on killing you with a blade - as these persons wouldn't show their weapon until it entered your body.

I managed to catch someone's knife arm once, not realizing the hand held a knife until I turned his arm and saw his hand. This was luck . If my technique had been sloppy and the margin slightly narrower, I would've cut myself on his knife. And if I had been any slower getting my body out of the way I'd been in the hospital. Or the morgue.

So don't get cocky if you've learned a few 'knife-disarming' techniques - they only work on amateurs.

The article isn't bad...the concept of trapping the elbow is a good one.

I also employ the 2 against 1 idea: in other words my 2 hands will better control his knife hand so he doesn't redirect and cut me then my 1 hand.

I also employ the "immediate" disarm idea, which is you go for a technique that will immediately immobolize your attacker and/or disarm the blade before he knows what has happend. If you meet resistance that will prevent you from finishing your technique, you flow into a barage of "softening" strikes while controlling the hand, again attempting the technique or transitioning into a different technique. The idea behind this one is this: your knife wielding attacker is not going to stop at 1 strike while you soften him up to disarm, as often happends in practice when your with a training partner who isn't enraged, and really trying to harm you. Your attacker will be barading you with strikes with the blade. You may be able to execute your softening techniques, but I question your ability to do this w/o getting sliced or cut at least once, while he is rapidly and erraticly slicing back and forth, stabbing, and cutting at anything within his range (you may be able to do this by monitoring and controling the elbow, and using your hand sensitivity, but this is difficult at best to rely on, especially if your attacker is trained). So, my method or thought process is that it is better to be able to initiate a crippling disarm (or control, or breaking, or immobilizing) technique the second your hand(s) come in contact with the knife hand. You use your "softening techniques" as your backup if your initial technique fails. Granted, you can get cut this way also, but if you succeed you will have immediately immobilized the attack without cutting yourself, which would be a wonderful feat of self defense.

My mentality with Disarming: It is always a last resort, no matter how good you are. You can't run, you can't pick up a weapon, and doing what the attacker says will not get him to walk away from you unharmed. So, you must disarm. So, you consider yourself a walking dead person. You write your life off as being over, and only God can save your @$$ now. The reason is going in for a disarm is a suicide mission. You have to think of it this way, not to have a defeatist attitude, but because the chances are not in your favor that you will survive if your knife attacker is intent on killing you. So you cannot fear death, or extreme injury in this situation. By having the mindset that your body is already dead, like the Ancient Samuri, Celts, Tribal Warriors, etc., you will not fear, and you may just come out of the situation alive.

For any who doubt what I am saying, I challange you or your instructor, whether local school owner or Grandmaster, to be able to disarm me WITHOUT getting cut. I'm not trying to be a jerk; we would use trainers and protection, and I wouldn't be trying to injure them, as I would expect they wouldn't be trying to injure me. Having said that, if we did a best out of 5 myself against whoever, I bet you they would be cut most, if not all of the time. I know this sounds egotistical, but the fact is I don't claim expertise in the knife; but I am trained, and I am confident that it would be difficult at best to take a knife away from someone who is trained w/o getting cut. That is all I am saying here (plus, I have nothing to lose because if they disarm me best out of 5 w/o getting cut, then I would be happy to learn how they were able to do it! ;) ).

The Law: If someone has a knife and is intent on harming me, the last thing I will be worried about is the law. Safety 1st! Also, the legal system views a blade as "lethal force." So if someone pulls a knife on you, anything is fair game. After the encounter, it is a good point to make sure there is evidence that he had a knife in the first place; but most likely that evidence will be cuts on your skin, and your own blood.

Originally posted by PAUL
For any who doubt what I am saying, I challange you or your instructor, whether local school owner or Grandmaster, to be able to disarm me WITHOUT getting cut.
You bring your knife - I'll bring my naginata.:D

Try wearing armor.
Seriously, you should use a weapon with a longer range so that you don't risk getting cut except by yourself. I suggest a bow or a spear.

Originally posted by Reprobate
You bring your knife - I'll bring my naginata.:D

LOL...I ment empty hand vs. knife disarm! :p

The other night our instructor told us that we should hit them with a spinning or jumping spinning back kick the second we saw the weapon. You know, the whole your leg being longer than their arm thing. Though it probably wouldn't work if someone used a sword, etc.

Originally posted by shadowninjakat
The other night our instructor told us that we should hit them with a spinning or jumping spinning back kick the second we saw the weapon. You know, the whole your leg being longer than their arm thing. Though it probably wouldn't work if someone used a sword, etc.

I hope you were kidding. Anyone with a lick of common sense could simply back up and cut your Achille's tendon, or zone off and cut your hamstring. Sounds like a good way to get crippled to me.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by shadowninjakat
The other night our instructor told us that we should hit them with a spinning or jumping spinning back kick the second we saw the weapon. You know, the whole your leg being longer than their arm thing. Though it probably wouldn't work if someone used a sword, etc.

should only kick low. If you kick high and they cut your thigh artery. it's over

Originally posted by shadowninjakat
The other night our instructor told us that we should hit them with a spinning or jumping spinning back kick the second we saw the weapon. You know, the whole your leg being longer than their arm thing. Though it probably wouldn't work if someone used a sword, etc.

Whaaa..........!!!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl:

Originally posted by PAUL
LOL...I ment empty hand vs. knife disarm! :p
Well, I challenge anyone to disarm me as I wield my naginata...

Originally posted by Reprobate
Well, I challenge anyone to disarm me as I wield my naginata...

I'll take that bet...If I can wield a sniper rifle from 100 yards away...! :rofl:

I'm a police officer (since 1977) and a police defensive tactics instructor. The Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson) started hosting Police Survival Seminars for law enforcement personal in the 80's. They have also published several books. They had a extremely professional staff and researched edged weapons thoroughly. Their expert consultant & adviser was Dan Inosanto. Five years of research went into those, both police and civillian, who survived edged weapon attacks (some were trained, some weren't). Their conclusion was 'undisputed' that those who survived had control of the knife weilding arm or hand. They put this concept together with an acronym-G.U.N., meaning Grab-Undo-Neutralize. I will have to go along with this because in police survival training everything is researched for total realism and practicality because the people you are training will most likely face these situations at some time in their carreers. They can't afford to go by theory. They go by 'real world' experiences. If, as an instructor, you teach them something that has no merit, you could be very well sending them to their deaths. Law enforcement personnel are only taught to go empty hand against an edged weapon if the handgun was not accessable at the time. We train officers to expect to see their own blood. There is a 90 percent chance or better that you will be cut so this is the mindset we give them. I teach my kempo students the same way. Now, nothing is 100 per cent, so it is possible on a bare arm or wrist where someone is bleeding or very sweaty one could lose their grip on the knife hand.
Some others may come back at me and say, 'well I used this or that and it worked'. My answer to that is 'anything can work' but would it be classified as a legitimate knife technique? I know of a police officer who was a golden gloves boxer who threw a right hook at a guy who held a gun on him (he was interviewed by Remsberg & Anderson), the dude was knocked out before he hit the ground! It worked but it wouldn't be taught as a gun technique. Respectfully Shihan Joe Shuras

We learn one knife technique only. I tried to write it out and failed miserably. Basically we're assuming a thrusting attack, either upward, straght in, or downward. By executing the same series of movements (V block and grab, kick low, circle the block and pivot the body to lock or takedown, disarm, finish) in the same direction regardless of the type of attack the motion becomes automatic, without trying to draw on a catalog of techniques. I always kick with my right, circle the block clockwise, step back with my right to face 3:00. Of course the direction of the block alters with the direction of the attack, but not with the hand that attacks. The obviuos question is what if it isn't one of those three types of attacks? Then we adopt a more 'typical' defensive posture, protect the head and neck, if necessary taking slashes on the outside of the forearms, maintain separation, etc. until the thrust occurs. Reading this I'd expect a bit of skepticism, but it seems to work in the (benign) dojo environment.

Incidently, my instructor has been in only one encounter with a knife. He instinctively punched the the guy in the face as soon as the weapon came out and knocked him out, he doesn't recommend this approach to us.

Great post!

I have been privy to the research done by calibre press, and I study arts closely related to Dan Inosanto's. I will say that the GUN principle is a good one, and exists in every knife-art that works in reality.

I think the video, although old, titled "Surviving Edged weapons" (if I am correct on the title) is a great one to watch for overall awareness as well.

In my training, and hopefully in a real situation, when confronted with a life threatening situation, empty hand or otherwise, my goal is only unconditional survival. This frees you to do whatever it takes to see another day.

This way, whether I get cut or not, I win just by not dying. Also remember, it is possible to win the fight but lose the war by perishing afterwards.

Possessing the will to survive regardless of circumstances is critical.

Having irrational and/or unrealistic expectations, based on whatever skills or experience you may have, can also lead to severe post-traumatic syndrome even though you survive. The result of these unrealistic ideas, can allow denial, uncertainty, paranoia, and/or fear to traumatize/control you for the rest of your life.

While perusing these types of forums, I have encountered many responses to these types of things to be of the nature that the attacked individual was permanently scarred emotionally and physically, when confronted by violence, because they felt like they should have been some kind of superhero and it did not work out the way that they would have hoped. Stop fantasizing and realize that you will get hurt, things will not go as planned, and it will affect you afterwards.

When forced into a dangerous situation, try to breathe, keep moving, use awareness, good judgment, your warrior spirit, but above all: SURVIVE and go from there.

Just my opinion. Tim

RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!!!!!!!!