Mindless rambling about where FMA's are going

[Tgace]

I’m kind of formulating this idea on the fly here so bear with me...Guro Paul Martin, who sometimes posts here, is an old friend of mine and we get into some long philosophical discussions about the martial arts. A couple of days ago we got off onto a tangent about why some martial arts in the USA draw large numbers of students and can support franchise dojos (read TaeKwanDo) with weeklong multi-class sessions. While others draw handfuls of students (I have yet to see FMA schools that "pack em in" on a daily basis).

Some of the points we touched on are...

The power of the children’s class. It seems that a major student draw in the US is parents looking to get their kids "some discipline" and exercise and the militaristic, organized, lined up class structure of a classic "Karate school" fit the bill better than the looser, small group structure that many FMA groups work with.

The fact that FMA, due in large part to its seminar-based propagation in the US, has become more of an "add-on" martial art, than a school structure based in its own principals. At least in my experience, I have seen many classic MA schools with "also featuring" adds including Arnis, Kendo, cardio-kickboxing etc. etc. much more often than I have seen any FMA dedicated dojos.

The "Warrior" / self-improvement angle...Classical MA and military type styles (TKD is still a component for promotions in the Korean military) have the religious, meditative, spiritual reputations that draw people looking for that "inner development" martial arts mastery type stuff that has been associated with the "warrior lifestyle" crowd. In my experience, FMA seems to have a closer affiliation with "down and dirty" fighting than it does to Aikido or the Karate styles with practitioners looking to hone inner discipline, and the "warrior spirit" yadda yadda....

As I said this is kind of free flowing idea here, in no way am I pointing out strength or weakness in any martial art style, or saying that chains of FMA schools would be a goal to aim for. What I guess I’m getting at is what do we all see as the FMA's place in the martial arts community? Where should it be going?

[The Boar Man]

Originally posted by Tgace
1)....why some martial arts in the USA draw large numbers of students and can support franchise dojos (read TaeKwanDo) with weeklong multi-class sessions. While others draw handfuls of students (I have yet to see FMA schools that "pack em in" on a daily basis).

2) The power of the children’s class. It seems that a major student draw in the US is parents looking to get their kids "some discipline" and exercise and the militaristic, organized, lined up class structure of a classic "Karate school" fit the bill better than the looser, small group structure that many FMA groups work with.

3) The fact that FMA, due in large part to its seminar-based propagation in the US, has become more of an "add-on" martial art, than a school structure based in its own principals. At least in my experience, I have seen many classic MA schools with "also featuring" adds including Arnis, Kendo, cardio-kickboxing etc. etc. much more often than I have seen any FMA dedicated dojos.

4) The "Warrior" / self-improvement angle...Classical MA and military type styles (TKD is still a component for promotions in the Korean military) have the religious, meditative, spiritual reputations that draw people looking for that "inner development" martial arts mastery type stuff that has been associated with the "warrior lifestyle" crowd. In my experience, FMA seems to have a closer affiliation with "down and dirty" fighting than it does to Aikido or the Karate styles with practitioners looking to hone inner discipline, and the "warrior spirit" yadda yadda....

5) What I guess I’m getting at is what do we all see as the FMA's place in the martial arts community? Where should it be going?

I added numbers to address and edited some text.

1) This you semi answered with number 2) the power of kids classes and the perception that parents might have about their kiddos learning a weapon based martial art system. In order to keep the doors open you must have students, in order to have students you must cater to their perceived needs, not what you want. If you don't meet their needs than you close the doors.

2) Kids classes keep the doors open on many schools here in the states. Adults (parents) have a hard enough time thinking they need (want) weapons based training, how much less do they want little Johnny swinging a stick around the house smashing lamps, TV's, etc. etc. or cracking a brother or sister over the head.

3) While yes the FMA is largely a seminar based instruction institution here in the states it is for that reason that it is an add on art. People want to learn self defense and if the instructor is a high ranked instructor in another system and he sells it as a effective tool/system to learn self defense than he would be nuts to allow a system such as the FMA's into his school that would differ from his main system. So it's taught on the side line without much emphasis which gives the students the idea that it isn't as good or important as the main system. Otherwise wouldn't the instructor be teaching it instead.

I ran into this at a school I use to teach for, the students would come in for the 1st hour of my class and then be all wide eyed and googly to run off to their next class of a system that they trained in every day of the week (I taught 1 night a month for a 2 hour weapon class and traveled 60 miles to get there to do it). However the longer students took my class the more they then stayed and blew off the other class, they saw the value of it.

4) Here I disagree somewhat. I don't think the spiritual aspect plays much in the MA here in the USA, maybe in other parts of the world but not here. In fact there isn't much meditating going on here, since it might have religious connotations and the school owner wants to cater to the potential student.

I think there is a fear of weapons that people have and people don't want to deal with it. I had a owner of a security company come to my class after he had just gotten beat up on the job and put in the hospital, however I was to radical for him because I was showing the students the 12 angles of attack feeding drill and the angles 1 and 2 were to extreme for him. He didn't even want to have those strikes in his muscle memory for fear of getting sued. He couldn't do it. Same thing with a law enforcement officer (former student), at least though he saw the value of it and continued to train. But it was hard for him at first to block his head when he wanted to go for that thigh strike.

5) I think it needs to continue going where it is at now. Some great instructors have produced some great students who are in turn passing on the art in small classes or groups. Some vetern martial artists are now looking to arnis and other FMAs to cross train in. The FMA has had some impact on some major movies Bourne Idenity and The Hunted and I think since the quality of the fight scenes was pretty goood that they (FMAs) will be used again.

Mark

[Tgace]

To keep the topic going...IMHO i think that the seminar based introduction of FMA into the states kinda fated it to be a "sideline" martial art. Who takes these seminars? Why martial artists of other styles of course. They took it back and used it as another sales point for their school. Like you said it would be nuts in a business sense to let it be otherwise.

So in your opinion will the FMA conquer fron within (in an infiltration sense) or is it fated to blend into other arts and slowly loose its own identity?

[The Boar Man]

I think so however it might not be like we want it to.

Some people go to a couple of seminars and get some sort of rank and then take it back to their schools and try and pass them selves off as FMA teachers.

Some people take some seminars then apply the techniques to their arts and incorperate them (as the Borg assimilates others ;) ) and then try and pass it off as their own. Or it might be they take the principles and apply them to their art and it is their own then.

Some people go to a bunch of seminars (since that is the only way to learn that's available to them at the time) and then really try and learn the material that was presented and in turn teach the material to students/other people.

Some people were/are lucky enough to train under an instructor that had a direct link to a FMA master/instructor and then they (a select few) will pass it on.

In the end I think it will become like any other martial art systems if the art and the instructor(s) are good then it will survie intact. If not then some of it will survive in one form or another.

Mark

[dearnis.com]

I think the real problem is that FMAs take folks way, way outside their comfort zones. And most folks cant take this.

[The Boar Man]

Originally posted by Tgace
To keep the topic going...IMHO i think that the seminar based introduction of FMA into the states kinda fated it to be a "sideline" martial art. Who takes these seminars? Why martial artists of other styles of course. They took it back and used it as another sales point for their school. Like you said it would be nuts in a business sense to let it be otherwise.



I disagree that it makes good business sense to use the FMA as another sales point for thier school. Only a few schools that I have seen do this. Sometimes the schools will teach a FMA type class in order to reach out and try and tap another market.

But like the class that I taught it kind of made a point as to how the main arts at the school (a Korean system, and a more modern self defense system) lacked in the weapons based area. Therefore I in a sense competed with the school.

In fact another instructor over heard (or was talking to another karate instructor) at GM Ernesto's seminar that I sponsored about how he couldn't bring in someone like Ernesto or have a program like that in his school because it would compete with his karate program. (The one instructor told me this after the seminar). In fact this instructor who made the comment use to sponsor GM Remy in for seminars.

The schools that I have seen that teach a FMA type class are sometimes Kenpo schools, or like the JKD concept schools that teach it as part of their curriculmn. But I haven't seen many that teach the FMA class as part of a karate / TKD / Kung Fu type school.

Time for work
Mark

[stickarts]

The arnis segment in our school has always been no more than 10% of the enrollment in our other programs. The group has been small but very dedicated. The group arnis class barely pays for itself (although private lessons do well). I do it mainly because i love the arnis. The arnis could not even come close to paying the bills and keeping me in business! However, it does not compete or conflict with my other programs either.
It is a small, but very worthwhile addition to the school.

[bloodwood]

I think another reason is that when people think of the Martial Arts they don't think of the Philippines. They associate it with China, Japan and Korea as the main stream for these arts. When people see what we have to offer they are usually interested in learning. Many schools are looking to add weapons based styles to their curriculum but only as an add on. For now we just have to take what we can get with the knowledge that we really do have what they want.

bloodwood

[loki09789]

I have to agree with the idea that Japanese, Chinese, Korean Martial arts have overshadowed other areas for martial arts.

American/Western wrestling, yes I mean WWF style has it's roots in Catch fighting which is a very brutal and effective style. But the impression of Catch and WWF styles is that it is too corny or low class. Boxing and fencing have a direct relationship and there are some very good street variations within boxing that include some of the corto range FMA styles. But fencing is associated with an elitist mentallity and is VERY expensive to participate in.

Tom Bolden had an interesting idea that FMA on Western Boxing because of boxer sailors/soldiers using the very upright Marquis de Queensbury style getting beat by the more fluid, slippery Filipino during smokers in the PI.

Filipino martial arts is a late comer to the Martial arts market in the US compared to the 'big three' countries of influence. Also, I think that the selling points of FMA of adaptiveness, flexibility of response, less rooted in 'traditional' practice mentallity and the conceptual approach was competing with Bruce Lee and JKD. They share a lot of characteristics on those lines. It is no wonder that one of the base systems in most JKD programs is FMA.

Paul Martin

[loki09789]

I think the religious, spiritual idea of 'traditional arts' isn't always as obvious as meditation or converting to buddhism.

The chinese arts generally are influenced by Confusionism (rank and order/hierarchy, respect lines...), Taoism (Tai Chi Chuan, Pagua...), or Buddhism (Shaolin related systems). The Japanese arts are influenced by Buddhism, Zen and Bushido. Korean arts generally are Confucionistically influenced too with it's para military class structure. These philosophies emphasis harmony, respect, and order on a large scale. That aspect is what I think draws people in. The idea that there is a structured, ordered environment that they can see in every bow, belt and lineage.

FMA comes from a clannish, tribal root in a country that is a melting pot of cultures and identities. This means that the curriculum, customs and origins of FMAs vary much more so than in the 'traditional arts.' A student who moves from one area to another can find more similarities if they change from Shotokan to Isshinryu than if they change from Modern Arnis to Pakita Tersia, or KunTao or Cinco Terros systems. The class custom and formats of each of these schools will be very different in the eyes of beginning students.

I think that students have a harder time getting started in FMA than in traditional arts because it is a concept art, where trad arts are more technique and obvious to beginners.

I know this is my second post and long, sorry. Tom said that we had talked about this alot so I have comments on the cuff for this one.

Paul Martin

[Tgace]

Modern Arnis, being foremost a weapon based system, dosent present itself has having a comprehensive emptyhand component, making it less of a draw for absolute newcomers to the MA. If I were a newbie looking to take a class in "self-defense" I believe I would be more attracted to a style that had more punching/kicking/grappling and emptyhand sparring a la TKD, Karate etc.

FMA seems to be more accepted by experienced martial artists who can appreciate the conceptual approach and dont require somebody telling them how to do every movement and technique in a regimented step-by-step format. Sort of a graduate program in the martial arts if you get my drift.

That being said, I think thats why FMA has the tendancy to blend into some arts like Kenpo and JKD that have similar movement styles and dont really have a strictly "traditional" weapons system of their own. (Yes I know that Kenpo has some traditional Chinese weapons associated with their systems, but I have seen few schools that really teach them like Karate does with Bo, Sai, Kama, etc.)

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Tgace
Modern Arnis, being foremost a weapon based system, dosent present itself has having a comprehensive emptyhand component, making it less of a draw for absolute newcomers to the MA.

That depends on who your teacher is. I've been taught that Modern Arnis has more emptyhand techniques than people think. When I teach at a seminar, most of the people who attend practice another system first and choose to crosstrain into MA. I'm not going teach then how to punch and kick. I teach them the elements that they don't aready have, the weapons. In my school I teach everyone from scratch. Punching, kicking, lock and throws. My school is a Modern Arnis school first!

[loki09789]

My background was in other arts before FMA and MA so I didn't come up from scratch. Also, my FMA/MA curriculum was blended with Kenpo.

In a strictly MA curriculum, where do the empty hand techniques get introduced and how are they taught? Multiple reps, like a boxing/traditional Karate; or is it more a familiarization training and students improve by incorporating them into techniques and give and take drills?

The second is how I was taught and have taught FMA empty hand. I like it because it emphasises movement and application. THe down side is that it may take longer for mechanical mastery of a punch or kick. I generally use a combination that emphasises a students need. I just don't know how it works in a
'Traditionally' MA class.

Paul Martin

[Rocky]

Ecellent idea for a post!!



I’m kind of formulating this idea on the fly here so bear with me...Guro Paul Martin, who sometimes posts here, is an old friend of mine and we get into some long philosophical discussions about the martial arts. A couple of days ago we got off onto a tangent about why some martial arts in the USA draw large numbers of students and can support franchise dojos (read TaeKwanDo) with weeklong multi-class sessions. While others draw handfuls of students


I think you pretty much hit it on the head with most of your points give or take a few.


I also think that the person who said that most FMA"s take people out of their comfort zone is very true.


And Tim Wrote:


That depends on who your teacher is. I've been taught that Modern Arnis has more emptyhand techniques than people think. When I teach at a seminar, most of the people who attend practice another system first and choose to crosstrain into MA. I'm not going teach then how to punch and kick. I teach them the elements that they don't aready have, the weapons. In my school I teach everyone from scratch. Punching, kicking, lock and throws. My school is a Modern Arnis school first!

Damn!! Tim you must be getting old :D cause you know wisdom comes with age!!! You couldn't be more right about this. People who say Modern Arnis is primarily a seminar or add on art are the people who only trained at a seminar, go figure!

Keep in mind the closer an art is to real fighting the harder it is to teach to the masses thats why Catch fighting, a truely American Martial arts along with Native American fighting is so hard to find.

Lets not forget that arts ike Tae Kwon Do have the full force of the Korean government behind it in promoting.


On last thing that I think gives FMA'ers the right to hold their heads high is. Think about this, how often do fma guys go to the more commercial arts to get something from them??? I'l bet dimes to dollars not near as often as they come to us.!!!
From my own experience 9 out of 10 of my students are previously trained. Some of them have more years in the martial arts than I have been alive!!!!! To me that says a lot for the FMA's.


Rocky

[loki09789]

I agree with Rocky that there are a lot of artists who look for FMA cross training or leave current arts to come over. But, my question is do you think it is because the other arts are more 'popular' - read common and easier to find in the phone book - and once they get into the arts they hear about FMA, or is it because they have enough foundation that the concept approach isn't so intimidating?

I lean toward the first reason as the bigger of the two. The more popular arts are better exposed to the uninitiated and easier to find. If you look in the back of Martial Arts mags, you can find market consulting firms that teach artists how to set up a school for financial success. These are generally geared toward the TKD, Karate type arts and work very well that way. I don't see FMA arts having the same business training support like that. I think it is part of the future of the art, but it isn't really there right now.

Paul Martin

[sercuerdasfigther]

i think fma always was and still is a tribal art. it's bakyard training and that's how it will stay. having talked to artists from other styles, i feel the fma mind set is just to intense for most people. even guys who fight muaythai or nhb couldn't image using a weapon on a person, it's just to direct.

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Renegade
That depends on who your teacher is. I've been taught that Modern Arnis has more emptyhand techniques than people think. When I teach at a seminar, most of the people who attend practice another system first and choose to crosstrain into MA. I'm not going teach then how to punch and kick. I teach them the elements that they don't aready have, the weapons. In my school I teach everyone from scratch. Punching, kicking, lock and throws. My school is a Modern Arnis school first!


Yes you may teach punching kicking and throws, but where did those methods in your school curriculum come from? You weren't taught all of that from just Modern Arnis, Tim. Nor did Professor Presas "create" his system from nothing. He trainined in and borrowed from other arts, just like many "innovators" of today.

Give credit where it's due. I remember back in the late 80's you used to make fun of other instructors calling their arnis "kenpo with a stick" not really understanding where they were coming from, and now you have a big connection to kenpo and bando. The belt ranking requirements on your web site even lists a number of kenpo techniques. Is it a coincidence that you happened to use the same name Ed Parker and Al Tracy used for a different technique, or is it that you weren't crative enough to at least change the name for the technique that you "borrowed"? You even commute to Michgan to train in Balitawak. If your Modern Arnis training was so complete then why go to such lenths to diversify in such a way? I apologize for sounding arguementative, but it sounds like you're telling everybidy here that you have something nobody in Modern Arnis has, and that is simply not true. You just have a different approach.

Much of the empty handed modern arnis has roots elsewhere, and vary from school to school. Modern Arnis joint locks reflect GM Wlly Jay's Small Circle Jujitsu influence. Tapi- tapi tastes a lot like Balitawak, but not quite. Even the modern arnis anyos are heavily flavored with Shotokan karate. You can't deny that.


Tim Kashino

[Tgace]

Originally posted by sercuerdasfigther
i think fma always was and still is a tribal art. it's bakyard training and that's how it will stay. having talked to artists from other styles, i feel the fma mind set is just to intense for most people. even guys who fight muaythai or nhb couldn't image using a weapon on a person, it's just to direct.

True,but lets be realistic, many FMArtists are no "better prepared" to engage in "real combat" than any other art. Just because you train with sticks, knives, disarms etc dosent mean you are mentally prepared to use them on another person. IMHO arts that do a lot of sparring have the edge in regards to knowing what taking and giving real blows actually feels like. I remember working out with a Thi Boxing Chief Warrant Officer when I was in the service and trying to use block/check/counters against even 1/2 speed jabs and crosses(and kicks,knees,elbows..ouch).....lets just say that all FMA students could gain some insight by incoroprating some freestyle fighting.:)

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Yes you may teach punching kicking and throws, but where did those methods in your school curriculum come from? You weren't taught all of that from just Modern Arnis, Tim.
[...]
Much of the empty handed modern arnis has roots elsewhere, and vary from school to school. Modern Arnis joint locks reflect GM Wlly Jay's Small Circle Jujitsu influence. Tapi- tapi tastes a lot like Balitawak, but not quite. Even the modern arnis anyos are heavily flavored with Shotokan karate. You can't deny that.

Of course not--but all of the SCJJ, anyos, and tapi-tapi came to us via Prof. Presas as part of Modern Arnis.

The Balintawak techniques are educational--they shed light on the development of the system. The Prof. had encouraged Mr. Hartman to study Balintawak in order to better understand Modern Arnis--much as studying Latin will sharpen your Italian!

The biggest influences of Bando and Kenpo on the WMAA's curriculum have been semantic and organizational. It's the idea of naming techniques and principles more than the techniques themselves, which overwhelmingly are the Professor's techniques or natural innovations thereof. These are pedagogical, not technical, issues.

Certainly Modern Arnis drew from a variety of Filipino and Japanese arts (and others). But the throws, hand techniques, etc. are things learned from the Prof.

[sercuerdasfigther]

empty handed don't try block/check/counter,try crack/jam/crack you need to inflict pain on the thai boxers limbs or your done.

as far as fma not being prepare to really use there art, i guess that all depends on the person and there teacher.

one last point(out of order,sorry) are empty hand is not meant for squaring off with a person. if they just attack,you react, but if you know a fight must happen just attack. never allow a thai boxer(or anybody else for that matter square off(it's a big advantage for them).

[Tgace]

Originally posted by arnisador
The biggest influences of Bando and Kenpo on the WMAA's curriculum have been semantic and organizational. It's the idea of naming techniques and principles more than the techniques themselves, which overwhelmingly are the Professor's techniques or natural innovations thereof. These are pedagogical, not technical, issues.

Not really clear on the logic of that decision...if (maybe its not) the goal is to give Modern Arnis a clear identity as its own style and not just a hodge podge of techniques, why muddy the waters with terminology from other styles??

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Tgace

Originally posted by arnisador
The biggest influences of Bando and Kenpo on the WMAA's curriculum have been semantic and organizational. It's the idea of naming techniques and principles more than the techniques themselves, which overwhelmingly are the Professor's techniques or natural innovations thereof. These are pedagogical, not technical, issues.

Not really clear on the logic of that decision...if (maybe its not) the goal is to give Modern Arnis a clear identity as its own style and not just a hodge podge of techniques, why muddy the waters with terminology from other styles??

(Emphasis added.) The goal is to have a well-structured curriculum so as to be able to present and teach the art well. It's the idea of how things are named/structured/organized that is principally being taken from these other systems. They are models. I think the only exception that is made is in the presets, which use Modern Arnis techniques but don't have names provided by the Prof. because he did not organize the techniques in this way. Of course, because of the presence of Shotokan kata and SCJJ in Modern Arnis, using Modern Arnis techniques leaves a wide range of possibilities for foriming a technique.

The Professor's seminar-style system of teaching and ever-evolving art needs some organization to make it appropriate for a school's curriculum and an organization's curriculum. A well-defined, specific curriculum is needed. This is what Dr. Gyi, at the Professor's urging to help the Professor's students, has been stressing to us.

[loki09789]

Okay,

Arnisador stressed the idea that RP's system of teaching was primarily seminar and that in needs some organization...

but... then who is teaching MA? If RP didn't really systemize his art to make it school friendly, who out there can say that their particular curriculum is 'the truest'? I think this is the root of the problem. RP left a very loose structure that made it open to criticism/interpretation by other artists, and even from those within the art. Not every black belt met the same criteria (This is NOT an attack on the quality, just an observation that without a set curriculum, each of you demonstrated your skill based on different checklists) so this could lead to some confusion about what is 'the best' way to demonstrate skill at each level.

How can there be rank without structure?

Who has the right to claim the name Modern Arnis on their school, when what they are doing is imposing their own structure on someone elses creation? There are many of you out there who have enough time in MA to do this with educated, legitimate ability, but if RP didn't put a systemizing 'stamp' on it, does that mean that, like JKD, MA is more a concept/philosophy and if you know the key ideas, you could be teaching shotokan techniques and still be teaching MA, or maybe an entire art without a stick and still call it MA? If MA is so much more about the idea of the technique and not the actual technique that may also be why it is appealing to practicing artists and not so much for the beginner.

I know it is touchy to say, but I think RP did a disservice to himself by not at least establishing/publishing a framework of somekind that his inheritors could build off of. If this does exist, I take it back, but from what I have read on this and other lists, he didn't.


Paul Martin

[MJS]

Originally posted by Tgace
True,but lets be realistic, many FMArtists are no "better prepared" to engage in "real combat" than any other art. Just because you train with sticks, knives, disarms etc dosent mean you are mentally prepared to use them on another person. IMHO arts that do a lot of sparring have the edge in regards to knowing what taking and giving real blows actually feels like. I remember working out with a Thi Boxing Chief Warrant Officer when I was in the service and trying to use block/check/counters against even 1/2 speed jabs and crosses(and kicks,knees,elbows..ouch).....lets just say that all FMA students could gain some insight by incoroprating some freestyle fighting.:)

There are some FMA's that do incorporate sparring, and most of the time, the are using a stick while doing so. Look at the Dog Brothers. Those guys are more intense than many other MA's that I know. I've talked to some guys that train in Kenpo, and they've even said that they wouldn't have the guts to do what they are doing.

Many of those guys are fighting with minimal gear, and they are using real sticks, not padded ones. I've seen clips of guys getting their knees busted, as well as their heads, hands, and fingers.

They also incorporate close in skills, such as knees, elbows and grappling.

IMO, that is alot more than I've seen many of the traditional arts doing!

Mike

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by loki09789
. . .

but... then who is teaching MA?
Paul Martin

I and others are Teaching Modern Arnis. ;)


Originally posted by loki09789
. . .
If RP didn't really systemize his art to make it school friendly, who out there can say that their particular curriculum is 'the truest'?

I think this is the root of the problem. RP left a very loose structure that made it open to criticism/interpretation by other artists, and even from those within the art. Not every black belt met the same criteria (This is NOT an attack on the quality, just an observation that without a set curriculum, each of you demonstrated your skill based on different checklists) so this could lead to some confusion about what is 'the best' way to demonstrate skill at each level.
Paul Martin

Yes, the Curriculum we use in our club is the truest. It was approved by GM Remy Presas back in 1977/78 time frame.

Yet, other clubs were approved also, so I do not claim to be alone or any such nonsense.

Remy took our requirements numerous times to other places around the country and then the other local people would either recommend their own or re-write it. Now this happened to other people as well, so not a unique event.

More in a few.


Originally posted by loki09789
. . .
How can there be rank without structure?
Paul Martin

Rank can exist simply because Remy Gave it. A very subjective point of view, and without any real sense of structure.


Originally posted by loki09789
. . .
Who has the right to claim the name Modern Arnis on their school, when what they are doing is imposing their own structure on someone elses creation? There are many of you out there who have enough time in MA to do this with educated, legitimate ability, but if RP didn't put a systemizing 'stamp' on it, does that mean that, like JKD, MA is more a concept/philosophy and if you know the key ideas, you could be teaching shotokan techniques and still be teaching MA, or maybe an entire art without a stick and still call it MA? If MA is so much more about the idea of the technique and not the actual technique that may also be why it is appealing to practicing artists and not so much for the beginner.

I know it is touchy to say, but I think RP did a disservice to himself by not at least establishing/publishing a framework of somekind that his inheritors could build off of. If this does exist, I take it back, but from what I have read on this and other lists, he didn't.


Paul Martin

Those schools that Remy approved of their Curriculum, can and have put their structure on to the art.

Now, a little history, and Uncle Rock can correct me if I am wrong.

RP had an organization(s) in the PI and he ended up loosing control of them to the government and to other people when he was not around all the time. I think this lead to his regional at best structure. He would not allow any one person to gain that much control. (* Except near the end, and that is a totally different discussion *) He was afraid he would loose his sytem yet again to someone else.


And Paul, it is not a diss-service to RP to discuss this if you wouldhave or did discuss these issues with him when he was alive. It only becomes a disservice, if you had the chance to do this and did not for some reason, and now years after, you start to bad mouth or insult, which I think you have not here. A simple discussion is not a disservice.

:asian:

[Tgace]

Originally posted by MJS
There are some FMA's that do incorporate sparring, and most of the time, the are using a stick while doing so. Look at the Dog Brothers. Those guys are more intense than many other MA's that I know. I've talked to some guys that train in Kenpo, and they've even said that they wouldn't have the guts to do what they are doing.

Many of those guys are fighting with minimal gear, and they are using real sticks, not padded ones. I've seen clips of guys getting their knees busted, as well as their heads, hands, and fingers.

They also incorporate close in skills, such as knees, elbows and grappling.

IMO, that is alot more than I've seen many of the traditional arts doing!

Mike

All very true, but the Dog Brothers are IMHO an exception (in more ways than one;) ) rather than the rule. And Im not saying that those sorts of extremes are ideal either. Knocking yourself out of training with constant injury isnt good. But in my experience, many MA groups seem content to stay in the comfort zone of drill,drill,drill and feed and response training.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by loki09789
If RP didn't really systemize his art to make it school friendly, who out there can say that their particular curriculum is 'the truest'?

Indeed. The people in the Philippines have a version; there are versions from different eras here in the U.S.; the German version is slightly different too, as I udnerstand it. People trained at different times stress different aspects. We've discussed this before--is the core of Modern Arnis tapi-tapi, the flow, connecting the systems, art within your (he)art, etc.?

The WMAA uses the curriculum implemented by Mr. Hartman, who made up the black belt tests used at the Michigan and some other camps and of course approved by the Professor. That could be one sense in which the WMAA could claim to be accurate. But, frankly, different people have different impressions of what Modern Arnis is and to my mind, that's OK. I have no interest in trying to claim the WMAA's version is the truest--I think there are others that could make as good a case for their curricula anyway. I wouldn't get involved in such an argument, I think.

But, certainly I wish we had been left a better-defined curriculum and a more cohesive and better-explained organization.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by loki09789
1. Arnisador stressed the idea that RP's system of teaching was primarily seminar and that in needs some organization...
but... then who is teaching MA?

2. If RP didn't really systemize his art to make it school friendly, who out there can say that their particular curriculum is 'the truest'?

3. How can there be rank without structure?

4. Who has the right to claim the name Modern Arnis on their school, when what they are doing is imposing their own structure on someone elses creation?

5...but if RP didn't put a systemizing 'stamp' on it, does that mean that, like JKD, MA is more a concept/philosophy and if you know the key ideas, you could be teaching shotokan techniques and still be teaching MA, or maybe an entire art without a stick and still call it MA?
6. I know it is touchy to say, but I think RP did a disservice to himself by not at least establishing/publishing a framework of somekind that his inheritors could build off of. If this does exist, I take it back, but from what I have read on this and other lists, he didn't.

Paul Martin

Hi Paul,

1. We all are.

2. Ahhh, the truest. The truest in anything is going to be a matter of viewpoint and quite often contention. We all teach MA from our individual point of view but not one of us are the truest. The truest left us two years ago.

3. Well, RP did it with the barest of structure as evidenced at the camps. In the rest of our schools it is up to the instructor.

4. The right? The interesting thing is that systematic structure has been imposed on the number of techniques that were taught by RP. So in that case, again, we all do.

5. Interesting question. I don't think so in that although there was the addition of shotokan punches/kicks as well as small circle jujutsu modifications in his locking, the majority of RP's actions were based on his FMA training so I'd say no to that question. On the other hand, one can't deny the karate and judo/jujutsu influence on Modern Arnis and I'd even say that those of us who trained in those arts prior to MA have a jump start on those who started in "MA proper."

6. To have set up one framework that superceded all others (i.e. ranking structure based upon set skills) was something that many of us worked on him for years and to no avail. Then again, if you look at him as the Father of Modern Arnis, then, the kids are out of the house and dad's passed away and we have to fend for ourselves and raise our own families, eh.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Tgace]

So to go back to the original question...where are things going? Or where would you like to see things go? Do any of you "powers that be" in MA have any long term goals? Or is it just going to be a "lets just all do our thing" and what ever the art evolves to it evolves to? If there are no plans for the future of MA than what is the purpose of all these organizations that keep popping up?

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Tgace
1. So to go back to the original question...where are things going?
2. Or where would you like to see things go?
3. Do any of you "powers that be" in MA have any long term goals?
4. Or is it just going to be a "lets just all do our thing" and what ever the art evolves to it evolves to?
5. If there are no plans for the future of MA than what is the purpose of all these organizations that keep popping up?

Tgace,
I can only answer from my point of view but...

1. Things are finally in a mode of settling down. Tim, Dieter, Kelly, Jeff, Randi, Remy Jr. and I all have our own wheels in motion. I think the common ground we all share for the future is the propagation of the art. We all have different ways of doing it. Currently, mine is through publications.
2. I'd love to see us all in joint ventures from time to time.
3. Speaking for myself, my motto is, "If he (RP) could do it, anyone can." My long term goal is to get the information out on how to reach RP's skill, at least through understanding of the principles upon which Modern Arnis is based. Then it's up to each individual to get there.
4. Could be. I can't speak for anyone else. I do know that with the passing of time there will be influences to each of our techniques and styles, though.
5. If the assumption of no plans is true (and I don't think is is) then the reasons for all these organizations to pop up would be the same as any other organizations - money, prestige, self promotion, etc.

I do think each organization has it's own purpose for Modern Arnis and I don't think it's for the splintering of the art. Each person who is heading his/her organization is strong willed and is following a purpose. This point is a good one for the other leaders to speak on.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[MJS]

Originally posted by Tgace
All very true, but the Dog Brothers are IMHO an exception (in more ways than one;) ) rather than the rule. And Im not saying that those sorts of extremes are ideal either. Knocking yourself out of training with constant injury isnt good. But in my experience, many MA groups seem content to stay in the comfort zone of drill,drill,drill and feed and response training.

Oh, I agree. Getting hit by a stick, being swung full power is definately not something for everybody. I agree that many people are content with the usual drilling, but if they never practice against any kind of resistance or power, they will be in for a big surprise. I've done some stick sparring like the Dog Bros. do. The only exception being, is that it was with padded sticks. Of course, padding or not, you still feel it when you get hit, but it definately opens your eyes to the way someone is really going to be swinging that stick.

Mike

[Tgace]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Tgace,
I can only answer from my point of view but...

1. Things are finally in a mode of settling down. Tim, Dieter, Kelly, Jeff, Randi, Remy Jr. and I all have our own wheels in motion. I think the common ground we all share for the future is the propagation of the art. We all have different ways of doing it. Currently, mine is through publications.
2. I'd love to see us all in joint ventures from time to time.
3. Speaking for myself, my motto is, "If he (RP) could do it, anyone can." My long term goal is to get the information out on how to reach RP's skill, at least through understanding of the principles upon which Modern Arnis is based. Then it's up to each individual to get there.
4. Could be. I can't speak for anyone else. I do know that with the passing of time there will be influences to each of our techniques and styles, though.
5. If the assumption of no plans is true (and I don't think is is) then the reasons for all these organizations to pop up would be the same as any other organizations - money, prestige, self promotion, etc.

I do think each organization has it's own purpose for Modern Arnis and I don't think it's for the splintering of the art. Each person who is heading his/her organization is strong willed and is following a purpose. This point is a good one for the other leaders to speak on.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Thank you Mr. Anderson for the honest response. With all the politics, infighting and BS going on in MA these days, I think that all the major players should make honest statements of their intentions and try to find some common ground. Unless, they are more interested in money, prestige and self-promotion than they are in the art.

And to elaborate on #4...if each club takes their own path in developing their art at what point will it become something other than MA? Was MA-80 developed because you saw that your interpretation of MA was taking on such a different characteristic from MA that you needed to re-classify? Should there be some form of standardization within MA? Is it even possible?

[arnisador]

WMAA Mission Statement (http://www.wmarnis.com/mission.html)

[Tgace]

"Our first goal is to further the growth of Arnis in the world. Secondly, our wish is to establish standards, set forth by Grandmaster Remy A. Presas, throughout the Arnis community."

-WMAA Mission Statement

Fair enough...However I think that getting everybody in the MA community to accept your standards as "The Standard" and submitting to your registration program will be a pretty big hurdle. But it is a goal and an attempt to standardize.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Tgace
"Our first goal is to further the growth of Arnis in the world. Secondly, our wish is to establish standards, set forth by Grandmaster Remy A. Presas, throughout the Arnis community."

-WMAA Mission Statement

Fair enough...However I think that getting everybody in the MA community to accept your standards as "The Standard" and submitting to your registration program will be a pretty big hurdle. But it is a goal and an attempt to standardize.


At one time the world was flat. Everyone who knew anything knew this. It took some people to go for it to Prove otherwise. (* No one believed the mathematicians and physicists. *)

At one time no one could fly.

At one time no could travel in space let alone go to the moon.

At one time there were no computers or microwaves or cell phones, .... , .

It took people trying to move forward, right, wrong or indifferent. This is part of the reason of teh dysporia or fracture of Modern Arnis. Not everyone agrees to what is Right or Wrong. So, you have some groups and some independants all looking to see and do what they can do to promote Modern Arnis and FMA in general.

:) Enjoy Training! is what I say. :D

[arnisador]

I think the sense is to establish widely respected standards for the benefit of the community of arnis practitioners, not to necessarily supplant other Modern Arnis groups' standards. The WMAA has no beef with any group that's promoting the Professor's art in good faith!

Still, why not shoot for the moon, eh?

[Rocky]

I look at it like this it is going where ever it goes!!! No one person is going to unite Modern Arnis, and who would really want to, I sure wouldn't.

I think Rich said something about Remy losing control once back in the Philipines, this was very true. I also think it had something to do with why Remy would sometimes turn his back on his students that reached a certain level. Bowden Sween, Mike morton, Brian Jankowski, Steve Osaras, Mike mitchel, Rick Mitchell and yours truely, were all hard core stick fighters back in the day, we use to roll with the Pt guys, here in Michigan you had Miguel Balboa, Ray Jay Jankins, Dave Robetson, Dominic W. and a few guys who trained under Tuhon Erwin Ballarta a ledgend in the full contact ring. His and Tom Bisio's fights at the Play boy club are legendary, anyways, the first group I mentioned were all 3rd and 4th degrees Except me back in the early to mid 80s. They all took Modern Arnis to the next step, by playing with other FMA'ers, Remy would often show us how to work against others and even encourage us to work with and against other FMA styles. But it seems like when you reached a certain level and especially if others took notice and asked Remy about working with you he would always say oh "Don't entertain them" or "You have it already", so one by one Brian, Bowden, Mike and I left, we all ( I think) had falling outs with the old man. Now when I look back at it what Rich said makes a lot of sence, I beleave Remy was a little bit paranoid about his control. Which I now look back on and can somewhat under stand. I place more blame on his guys who never took the initative(sp) to dig deeper into Modern Arnis's background. I all but begged people to train in Balintawak with me as far back as 1985, but no one would listen but when Remy 10 years latter makes it public knowledge about Balitawak then they wanna train, go figure! Of course he would never recommend anyone to train with me.

Note: to Rich back when Master Power first started with GM Buot Gm Presas did his best to try to get Master Power to bi-pass me and train directly to Gm Buot, when GM Buot sent Master Power to me first for the fundementals it was a great day for me I know it may sound childish but it was a real feather in my cap, when GM Buot did that without even realizing what he did ( at least I don't think he did) it sent a message home to GM Presas.

Anyways, the ideal that Modern Arnis is a hodge podge of arts, is true I challenge anyone to show me an art that isn't.

I will agree with Paul Martin that it is true that GM Presas did not teach alot of the Crossada type of striking which is his real base for emptyhand striking, you can see it in his liniar movement and vertical punching with a slouched should position that he often did. It is also evident in his body connection with his delivery on his center line drive punching.

As far as his overall fighting ability of his students goes lets not forget that the true purpuse of his art is for basic self defense.

As with all arts you have roughly 3 groups, the Pretty technique types, the self defense types and the fighters, and Modern Arnis has them all. I offerd this to you before Paul I am only a few hours from Buffalo, I have afew guys that love to play very hard core, if that is what you are looking for we are here!! Just bring a good stick, a good attitude, and a few bucks to go out and play afterwords.

For the guy that tried block check counter on a Tai Boxer, what the hell were you thinking!! Block check counter is a drill primarilly to absorb, suck in and trap primarlly horizontal swining attacks. Sorry but you should know that in the first belt or two!!

As far as Remy's rank structure, in 1983 when I was 17 and Remy sent me by myself to Sweaden to teach I didn't know exacticaly what to do so we sat down and basically went over the requirements that he approved up in Flint for Master Demott back in 1976. Its what I had given to me at a seminat in 1977 from Remy, we sat down and revised a few things and thats what I tought there. I added a lot of things to it over the years becuase Remy and I had a different training regiment thatn others, but that doesn't make it more or less the truest requirements.

As far as at what point does what a certain organizations teaching become something other than Modern Arnis, I say when that group stops calling it Modern Arnis. Look Remy's art is a self defense art/concept if you will. Look in the computer world we had windows 3.1 or what ever now we have Windows XP, at the core of all the versions it is still windows, it just looks a little differnent from time to time. Modern Arnis is like a good computer program it is designed to blend with many different arts and practioners. What the practioner needs to figure out is which version of Modern Arnis best fits them. Of course my personal preference is the way I teach, Tims is the way he teaches, and master Anderson and so on. Nothing is going to change in modern Arnis eventually there will be a half of dozen little groups and a few larger ones and thats that. The great thing about Martial arts is the guys behind the groups have to let there product speak for them via the quality of their students, this is what will weed some people out over the years in fact it already has a little bit. Of course you are always going to have poor practioners teaching poor quality, its America its a price we pay for being free.

All I intend to do is teach Modern Arnis the way I see fit and with more of the core eliments that Remy gave to me. I don't really care about getting a real big group going I strive for good quality students that will Rock and Roll in any way you want to. All though the Progressive Modern Arnis maybe a little more hard core than most, it is not near as hard core as Cuentada De Mano. because like I said Modern Arnis's primary function is self defense first.



Sorry so long guys.

Rocky

[bloodwood]

Many of the clubs and organizations in the PI were confrontational and rivals. That is how Anciong's Balintawak got started, due to a disagreement among the leaders of Doce Pares. Maybe we are no different from those in the homeland. I believe the FMA are more confrontational than other art forms, so maybe we are just following many years of tradition. It could be that Remy did not have a rigid structure for his organization because he was not used to that from his past.
For this reason I don't think there will ever be a unified Modern Arnis. It's just the nature of the beast.
As for what Rocky said about Professor abandoning some people, just remember that Professor was the main attraction and unless you were helping him cover some of his obligations he was not about to share the seminar and camp pie while he was still active. That was his business and he was protecting it. If people were looking for part of the action he would not support it, rather he would squelch any interest. He was protecting his turf and he was good at it. The only problem with this was that it left no room for life after Remy.

bloodwood

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
1. Yes you may teach punching kicking and throws, but where did those methods in your school curriculum come from?

2. I remember back in the late 80's you used to make fun of other instructors calling their arnis "Kenpo with a stick"

3. now you have a big connection to Kenpo and Bando.

4. The belt ranking requirements on your web site even lists a number of Kenpo techniques.

5. Is it a coincidence that you happened to use the same name Ed Parker and Al Tracy used for a different technique, or is it that you weren't creative enough to at least change the name for the technique that you "borrowed"?

6. You even commute to Michigan to train in Balintawak. If your Modern Arnis training was so complete then why go to such lengths to diversify in such a way?

7. I apologize for sounding argumentative,

8. but it sounds like you're telling everybody here that you have something nobody in Modern Arnis has, and that is simply not true.

9. Much of the empty handed modern arnis has roots elsewhere, and vary from school to school.

10. Modern Arnis joint locks reflect GM Wally Jay's Small Circle Jujitsu influence. Tapi- Tapi tastes a lot like Balintawak, but not quite. Even the modern arnis Anyos are heavily flavored with Shotokan karate. You can't deny that.

Tim Kashino


I would like to respond to Mr. Kashino’s post:

1. Mostly from Remy. I’ve added certain strikes through the years, but the majority came from my time in Modern Arnis.

2. If this were said it would have been a statement on certain individuals and not on the masses. I think we can ALL say that we’ve seen people cross train into other systems and they look like they’re still doing their base system and not what they are trying to do.

3. No, I have a big connection with Kenpo and Bando practitioners. There is a big difference.

4. You don’t know what you’re talking about. There is no Kenpo or Bando in my curriculum. Of course you don’t have the ability to make an educated comment on this point seeing that you haven’t been my student since about 1988.

5. Yes, it is coincidence that the names are similar. Once again there are NO BORROWED Kenpo techniques.

6. My Modern Arnis is very complete, more so than most. If I want to know more about the roots on the system I need to do research on what Modern Arnis is composed of. After starting my training in Balintawak (which Remy himself opened the door for me with Manong Buot) I see why Remy did certain things. One needs to know about the past to plan for the future. This is the heart of what drives me and my organization.

7. No you’re not. You’ve been this way as long as I’ve known you. You always seem to be looking for a fight. Personally I feel that all your posts about me are personal attacks Lamont, I mean Tim.

8. I think we all have something that the others don’t have. Remy trained us all differently. I don’t want to sound like a snob, but I’m part of a very small group (outside the P.I.) of people that started in Modern Arnis and didn’t cross train into it. Because of this fact I have a very unique perspective on the art. Here is some simple math for you. In 1991 I started teaching at Powerhouse Gym. I would teach and train an approximate total of 12 hours a week. In a month I would log 48-60 hours per month. This would total up to 624 hrs a year. The average Modern Arnis school has Arnis classes twice a week. Classes usually run about an hour in length. Let’s throw in an extra hour for personal training. This ads up to 3 hrs per week, 12-15 hrs per month, 156 hrs per year. With this amount of extra training I had over the average modern arnis practitioner, it would allow me to pick up new material from Remy earlier and give me more time to work it. So as a full time modern arnis person, yes I do feel that I have things that some of the others don’t have. I feel the same goes for others like me that have started in modern arnis and do it as a full time system.

9. Remy did cross train, but when I got this material, it had already been incorporated by him into the system. As far as I am concerned, it is modern arnis.

10. Like I said in my last point, Remy incorporated these things into the system prior to my training. As far as I am concerned, it is modern arnis. If you look at Remy’s earlier books, you will see that he was teaching joint controls long before he ever met Wally Jay.

I never once said modern arnis didn’t have outside influences. In a post on another thread, I have explained some of my training over the years to better understand where things came from and why Remy might have added it to the system. As I stated earlier in this thread Modern Arnis has quite a bit of open hand techniques.

[Cruentus]

What gives?

I'm noticing a trend here. Hartman says something that is not intended to spark an arguement of any kind, and you jump all over it and attack him. I see that he was your instructor at one time, also.

So what's your problem? Why the "mad at daddy" syndrome?:vu:

:idunno:

[Rocky]

Time Wrote:


4. You don’t know what you’re talking about. There is no Kenpo or Bando in my curriculum. Of course you don’t have the ability to make an educated comment on this point seeing that you haven’t been my student since about 1988.

Why not Tim?? Screw these Bozzo's you are doing a dis-service to Modern Arnis, Remy created the art with the mentality that it will always adapt and grow. Contrary to what the ill-informed beleave.



6. My Modern Arnis is very complete, more so than most. If I want to know more about the roots on the system I need to do research on what Modern Arnis is composed of. After starting my training in Balintawak (which Remy himself opened the door for me with Manong Buot) I see why Remy did certain things. One needs to know about the past to plan for the future. This is the heart of what drives me and my organization

Your Modern Arnis being more complete than most will always make you a target, welcome to my world!! I think now too you may understand why I always wanted you to train in Balintawak and Crossada DeMano, you are one of the very few who will and can see the connections. Again this will make you a target. We don't always see eye to eye but we see a lot more than others.





9. Remy did cross train, but when I got this material, it had already been incorporated by him into the system. As far as I am concerned, it is modern arnis.

Here!! Here!!


Bloodworth Wrote:


Many of the clubs and organizations in the PI were confrontational and rivals. That is how Anciong's Balintawak got started, due to a disagreement among the leaders of Doce Pares

Correction here Anciong broke off because he was taught different, and he wanted to move back to Cebu 9 Read my web site if you want to check out some of Balintawaks history) Anciong and the Canette'd were very good friends, In fact I have been invite to train with Cacoy because of my Balintawak Linage. The confrontation was between the modified or grouped versions and some of the un grouped off shoots. But Anciong student as with GM Buots usually welcomed at Doce Pares



As for what Rocky said about Professor abandoning some people, just remember that Professor was the main attraction and unless you were helping him cover some of his obligations he was not about to share the seminar and camp pie while he was still active. That was his business and he was protecting it. If people were looking for part of the action he would not support it, rather he would squelch any interest. He was protecting his turf and he was good at it. The only problem with this was that it left no room for life after Remy.

Sorry I can't agree with you here I think it was something else. Remy helped me get a pretty fair seminar following going as he did with others. I think it was more like he thought that maybe by teaching to many of his people the more traditional approach some would leave Modern Arnis, which I think he was wrong, I practice about 6 different Eskrima methods. But I still do Modern Arnis even though I have my own method "Cuentada De mano"
In fact I have said it before Remys biggest flaw came from being to generous, and giving to much to to many to fast , he wanted everyone happy and God can't even do that!

Rocky

rockypasiwk.com (http://www.Rockypasiwk.com)

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Renegade
I would like to respond to Mr. Kashino’s post:
...
4. You don’t know what you’re talking about. There is no Kenpo or Bando in my curriculum. Of course you don’t have the ability to make an educated comment on this point seeing that you haven’t been my student since about 1988.

5. Yes, it is coincidence that the names are similar. Once again there are NO BORROWED Kenpo techniques...

7. No you’re not. You’ve been this way as long as I’ve known you. You always seem to be looking for a fight. Personally I feel that all your posts about me are personal attacks Lamont, I mean Tim.



Tim, Jeff already addressed many of the things that were in my post. However it is nice to see you answer for yourself. Truthfully, I had though about posing those questions to you privately. Perhaps I should have, but would I have received a response? Probably not.

4 & 5: OK, I'll buy off on the coincidential similarity in the terms that you use for your techniques, and I understand your reasons for delving into Balintawak.

Yes, it is true that I trained with you for a very short time in 1988. You and I know why I left, and there is no reason to air that here. Furthermore, I've grown beyond all of that sophomoric crap. It's in the past, and it will stay there.

7: Well Tim, Yes I a am sorry to sound argumentative. Frankly Tim, you haven't seen me with any regularity since 1988. I didn't train with you long enough for you to know me in any greater degree than that of an vague aquantance. If you choose to judge me by my past affiliations, that's your narrow minded perogative and you're welcome to it.

There's no need for you to feel so threatened by me, I'm not calling you a fraud, plagarizer or charlatan. I'm asking you questions out of genuine interest. It's very childish of you to respond like that.

I am not hostile toward you or any of your crew. If I were, I know where to find you and I could come looking for a fight anytime I wanted to. It's that simple. If anybody is hostile, it's you. There's no need to be so damn defensive. I may not be your friend, but I'm not your enemy either. If a "nobody" like me can get under your skin so easily, then you've got some internal issues to deal with. Grow up and act like the leader you claim to be, Tim.

I'm off to Sicily.

Chiao,

Tim Kashino

[DoxN4cer]

Originally posted by Rocky
In fact I have said it before Remys biggest flaw came from being to generous, and giving to much to to many to fast , he wanted everyone happy and God can't even do that!

rockypasiwk.com (http://www.Rockypasiwk.com) [/B]


Well said, Rock.

Tim Kashino

[loki09789]

Rocky,

Thanks for the invite, but right now I am really interested in reconnecting with Bobby Taboada's grouped version of Balitawak. Not a slam against anyone else but just a personal preference. It felt like a good fit and I want to continue with it. Besides that, with the wedding coming, I have to pick my battles... I mean seminar/travel expenditures carefully right now. If 'mom/wifey's not happy...' and all that.

Tom posted something about the thai boxer vs trapping hands and I think it need clarifying. I hope he doesn't mind. I was there with him in Bosnia and trained with the Chief Warrant Officer too. I remember the session he was talking about.

The Chief was a VERY good Thai boxer and the schedule of the night was free sparring hands only. Tom decided to see what would happen if he did nothing but block check counter/trapping hands as a response. Basically, he was experimenting with the strictest pattern application he could make happen. The Chief was outrageously fast, even for a relaxed sparring session like this one and Tom was working really hard to make anything work, but it was entirely intentional.

I taught Tom trapping hands and I know he knows it as a drill, concept movement as well as an application when its time to bang. This was an experimental attempt, just to see what would happen.

It DID work to bridge the gap when there was a clinch. It DID work to create time and distance for him to set something else up and it DID work to disrupt the Chief because he was use to a different movement style. It did not work by itself against the Chief's speed. This session helped both of us to understand how a beginner might see and internalize trapping hands. Therefore we have to reconsider some of the language and pedagogical techniques that we use to teach it to them. It helped us to get back to that beginner's emotional and mental state to be better instructors.

I think the ultimate point of the comment was to say that free sparring and forcing students to apply techniques outside of a set drill or pattern is essential for self defense training.

Rocky's love of the ungrouped Balitawak is testimony to the fightablity of such training. Your always 'on' because it's similar to the randomness of a fight. This works for experienced artists and those who inherently are 'tough' minded. It will not work as the mainstay for a beginners training though if part of an instructor's goal is to help students who live in this relatively cushie world to tap into that tough mindedness because they are blessed with such a high quality of life and generally don't have to tap into that inner strength which is essential to survive a fight/self defense.


Tom can bang with the best of them. I have the pride of a friend and instructor/training partner when I hear how he really smoked the you know what out of the instructors during the baton and defensive tactics portions of the training at the police academy. That willingness to sacrifice comfort and leave the safety zone behind for the sake of knowledge and skill, as well as to serve his community is what contributed to his making the SWAT team as well as leaving a damn respectable reputation as a soldier and MP at our old unit. I never got asked to go commissioned officer by the commander time and time again. Tom, I'm jealous!

Paul R. Martin

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Tim, Jeff already addressed many of the things that were in my post. However it is nice to see you answer for yourself. Truthfully, I had though about posing those questions to you privately. Perhaps I should have, but would I have received a response? Probably not.

4 & 5: OK, I'll buy off on the coincidential similarity in the terms that you use for your techniques, and I understand your reasons for delving into Balintawak.

Yes, it is true that I trained with you for a very short time in 1988. You and I know why I left, and there is no reason to air that here. Furthermore, I've grown beyond all of that sophomoric crap. It's in the past, and it will stay there.

7: Well Tim, Yes I a am sorry to sound argumentative. Frankly Tim, you haven't seen me with any regularity since 1988. I didn't train with you long enough for you to know me in any greater degree than that of an vague aquantance. If you choose to judge me by my past affiliations, that's your narrow minded perogative and you're welcome to it.

There's no need for you to feel so threatened by me, I'm not calling you a fraud, plagarizer or charlatan. I'm asking you questions out of genuine interest. It's very childish of you to respond like that.

I am not hostile toward you or any of your crew. If I were, I know where to find you and I could come looking for a fight anytime I wanted to. It's that simple. If anybody is hostile, it's you. There's no need to be so damn defensive. I may not be your friend, but I'm not your enemy either. If a "nobody" like me can get under your skin so easily, then you've got some internal issues to deal with. Grow up and act like the leader you claim to be, Tim.

I'm off to Sicily.

Chiao,

Tim Kashino

Hmmm....lets see...you load up a bunch of questions that are riddled with criticizms and insults. Then Hartman answers, so you follow up with more insults, coupled with "why are you being so defensive/hostile" remarks. And if he chose to ignore you, you would try to ridicule him for letting others answer for him and for him not responding to you. How ridicules. Your pretending to be logical and objective, however, everyone can see through your baited questions and remarks that you have some obscure agenda with Datu Hartman.

"Truthfully, I had though about posing those questions to you privately. Perhaps I should have, but would I have received a response? Probably not." :vu:

When I read between the lines of your posts, it sounds like: I'm mad at my dad!

It's stupid and nonsensicle, I know. However, that is still what it sounds like.

Whatever. Be safe in Sicily [and I do mean that]. Also, see if your GI insurance will cover the counciling you'll need to overcome your "lost daddy" syndrome (you know, so your posts will sound less like "sophmoric crap").

Yours,

PAUL

:apv:

[Rocky]

Paul Wrote:


Thanks for the invite, but right now I am really interested in reconnecting with Bobby Taboada's grouped version of Balitawak. Not a slam against anyone else but just a personal preference. It felt like a good fit and I want to continue with it. Besides that, with the wedding coming, I have to pick my battles... I mean seminar/travel expenditures carefully right now. If 'mom/wifey's not happy...' and all that.

Well the door is always open!

Training with GM Taboada is a great ideal, he is a very nice man, we got off on the wrong foot a few years ago it was a he said they said thing. But all in all I have played with a few of his guys, and thought they were very good, which is a reflection on him. For the record my Cuentada De Mano is very simular to the grouped version " Much easier to teach that way" the reason I never claimed it to be Balintawak, is because it has so many other influence from my father and others. Gm Buot helped me coin the Phrase Cuentada ( Strategy) De mano (the hand) the first word is in GM Buot dialect and the second is GM Presas's.



Rocky's love of the ungrouped Balitawak is testimony to the fightablity of such training. Your always 'on' because it's similar to the randomness of a fight. This works for experienced artists and those who inherently are 'tough' minded. It will not work as the mainstay for a beginners training though if part of an instructor's goal is to help students who live in this relatively cushie world to tap into that tough mindedness because they are blessed with such a high quality of life and generally don't have to tap into that inner strength which is essential to survive a fight/self defense


See my above post you are right in that the un grouped version is much harder to teach.

Thanks

Rocky

[Rich Parsons]

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Rich Parsons
-MT Moderator-


:asian:

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Tgace

1. And to elaborate on #4...if each club takes their own path in developing their art at what point will it become something other than MA?
2. Was MA-80 developed because you saw that your interpretation of MA was taking on such a different characteristic from MA that you needed to re-classify?
3. Should there be some form of standardization within MA?
4. Is it even possible?

T,

1. Hoo boy, good question. I can't really answer that one honestly. I would think as along as the material went along with RP's material you could still call it Modern Arnis. If you went half and half with something like Kalis Illustrisimo, then you would have to change it then. My opinion.

2. Moreso that it was the way that I present it and the elements I think should be stressed. A very good example is that Kelly Worden sees far more importance in the anyos than I do. He stresses the heck out of them and I don't stress them anywhere near as much and to get Kelly and I to agree on anything in present time would be a modern washday miracle.

3. I think for the most part the only things that could be standardized in Modern Arnis would be the basic structure of the forms. Everything else is pretty wide open for interpretation.

4. For the forms, yes...possibly.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[loki09789]

The basic idea I am getting from the posting on this thread, before the finger pointing contest started deteriorating the quality of discussion, is this.

1. If you are ranked by RP you can legitimately claim to teach MA as well as your students, but RP ranked based on a subjective approach and could act for his personal benefit/preservation because of bad mojo in PI that he didn't want to repeat.

2. RP didn't lay down a curriculum, but he nodded off on some of your curriculums out there and you want to continue to do your own things that RP had already approved.

3. Competition is healthy in MA because it keeps everyone on their best performance and forces them to rise to a challenge. Therefore it's okay to have various curricula, organizations... and stuff.

4. No one is really interested in unifying MA under one single organization, system leader... because it is about variation and adaptability.

Here's my question:

Would it be possible to ever get the powers that be together to draft a single statement about mutual respect and cooperation that each of you would include in your Mission statements, contracts... what ever you call your charter that explains the basis and intent of your group... to demonstrate a recognition of fraternal but independent development in MA.

I remember that there were people up in arms about the USA declaring all National parks and Monuments officially United Nations monuments as well. They wanted to say it was a neglect of our soverenity as a nation, but it was really just a diplomatic gesture that sent the message that we are different but part of a greater whole.

I think this type of thing could be accomplished with that single agreed upon statement.

Paul Martin

[Cruentus]

I think this type of thing could be accomplished with that single agreed upon statement.

It's been said/thought of in different ways before.

In my opinion, this would take a miricle.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by loki09789
Here's my question:

1. Would it be possible to ever get the powers that be together to draft a single statement about mutual respect and cooperation that each of you would include in your Mission statements, contracts... what ever you call your charter that explains the basis and intent of your group... to demonstrate a recognition of fraternal but independent development in MA.

2. I remember that there were people up in arms about the USA declaring all National parks and Monuments officially United Nations monuments as well. They wanted to say it was a neglect of our soverenity as a nation, but it was really just a diplomatic gesture that sent the message that we are different but part of a greater whole.

3. I think this type of thing could be accomplished with that single agreed upon statement.

Paul Martin

Paul,
1. All of us? I don't think so but let me publicly state I'd be the first to support it.
2. ...part of the greater whole. Nicely stated. Each Modern Arnis organization leader trained under the same source.
3. If nothing else it might tonne down the public comments a bit.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Rocky]

I know this thread has been quite for a while but I just wanted to add a few more comments about where Modern Arnis is going and to respond to a few of Paul Martins comments.


Paul I think you are right in some of your comments about various things in Modern Arnis, however Modern Arnis is always going to change and be added to and taken away sometimes for the good some times for the bad. But this is just the way all matial arts are, the Founder or Grandmaster may have added and changed things, over ther years and once he is gone others will continue. 500 years ago the oldest of martial arts didn't have hand gun disarms, there was no need for them now almost all arts have some degree of it, some good some bad.

A quick story, when I was 6 I started training in Tang Soo Doo, Moo Duk Kwan. We were notrious for very fast and extreamly strong kicks. We also never had blackbelts, black symbolized death so our belts were Midnight Blue, we also never had kiddie blackbelts, Dan memebers were 18. We would show up (here in Michigan) at many of the open tourniments and many of the Tae Kwon Do guys use to wait and see how many of us showed up, before they would decide to fight, cause they new we had every kick they had but we were much harder kickers. It was something that made you proud to be in TSD. I had to wait years to get my 1st Dan because of my age I got it when I was 16 and at that time I was one of the youngest ever. But now!!! My old instructor who I out grew many moons ago ( he is very much a sylist and one dementional) but a fantastic TSD Man in fact the first to bring it to the U.S. anyways now he has kiddie blackbelts, an they even wear blackbelts something he beat into our heads when I was a kid that was WRONG! and last time I saw one of his classes it was basically a TKD class, I gusess it sells better. And as far as TKD and TSD when I was a kid part of the reason I got promoted at my age is my boxing skills from being on the Kronk Jr team, allowed me to dominate many of my adult counter parts, which didn't look good in class, see back then TKD and TSD where very limited in hand tech. but guess what most of the TKD and TSD guys now have decent hands , they incorperate a lot of boxing skills, some did it on their own some it came down from the top of there organizations, however it happened it was not a part of their regiment years ago, it is know and they still call it TKD or TSD. So I guess Modern Arnis will end up the same.

And Paul, if you think about it the same thing pretty much happended to Balintawak. In the end it all boils down to what you put into it and what you want out of it. And I am sure you will find things that you will add to your Balintawak and teach it to your students, but morethan likely you will still call it Balintawak, and why shouldn't you!

Take care
Rocky

[loki09789]

Amen Rocky,

That is my personal feel too. Evolution is the way to go. Too many Martial arts programs really like dust on their manuals and practice for building those intangible qualities of integrity, character, confidence... because that is easier to sell... I mean justify to a market... I mean parent, than fighting skill and realistic preparation for a fight. I truly believe that those intangible qualities are VERY important and are still taught in 'fighting' schools, but to see only that dimension of Martial arts is to forget the MARTIAL aspect of the art.

As far as MA, I agree that evolution and change are the key to growth. My comments were really just a summary of my observations of what was being tossed around on this thread. I have no problem with technical evolution. I do feel disappointed when I see the tone, lack of professionalism/respect during some of 'discussions' of differing view points. My point about the universal statement was just an idea on how to draw a respect line about agreeing to disagree in a mature and professional way instead of reducing the 'discussion' into a character slam. Attack the issues not the man sort of thing.

The best part of a boxing match for me isn't the two fit athletes, blasting each other with hits and punishment. It's the hug and hand shake at the end. In anything less than a life or death battle, we can argue and fight all day... just remember that we have to help each other to the hospital when it's done.

Paul Martin