new hapkido student here

[texas_rebel_1980]

greetings. i am very new to hapkido. i have been to maybe six classes. i am thoroughly enjoying everything i am learning. one thing i enjoy is when classes are small because no one shows up is the instructor asks us what we want to work on and we focus on our concerns. for example, i asked him to show me ways to get out of different headlocks and choke holds and we worked on that for a class.

does anyone else work on the cane in hapkido classes? the first thirty minutes or so we work on what i believe is Cane Master.....

one thing i worry about is depending on my partners they don't always go hard enough. i try to push them by going harder, but they don't always pick up on it. i believe if you don't train more real life then it won't come to you in a real situation. but, i don't push too much because i am so new.

[tshadowchaser]

I hate to throw a negative in most threads but I have to tell you Cane Master may be fine for a person in good physical health but if your old and you muscles and nerves to not always work well together it is of little use. One must be healthy to do much of what is taught. But then I guess it is that way for most of what we martial artists study.
Now having said that I'm happy to hear your are enjoying classes and that they are small enough for your instructor to take the time to ask and help out with what the students want to work on. Good for him.
Please keep us informed on how your studies progress. If you have questions I am sure someone in our community my be able to help with an answer.

[oftheherd1]

Welcome to the Hapkido forum. Always good to see participation here.

Your teacher has an interesting way to teach. I am somewhat conflicted by it however. It is wonderful to see a teacher willing to show students things they are interested in. However, there is also something to be said for learning things in an order that ensures best learning. That is, if you are learning pressure point use in those techniques, have you progressed to where you have the knowledge and strength to use them. That is one of the reasons for having a progression in learning, besides being able to pass BB tests in a reasonable time.

But that said, I am sure your teacher is qualified enough to know that and teach properly. And letting students ask for and be taught things in a less rigid manner surely mush help keep interest up.

As to cane, use, in my style, that must be taught beyond 3rd Dan. I don't know at what point. It wasn't taught to me, although like your teacher, my GM never hesitated to teach me anything I asked about after I passed my 1st Dan. It is something I might want to pursue as I get older. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Do keep posting here and let us know your progress and interests.

[texas_rebel_1980]

i was a bit unclear. we don't always get to ask for certain instruction. it is when only a few people show to class. he normally has a curriculum he goes by and we progress through it during the class. i will try to stay active and plan to try to keep studying for as long as my body will let me. i am a young 30 years old so I should have MANY good years left!

[Daniel Sullivan]

Welcome to MT!

Daniel

[Kong Soo Do]

I hate to throw a negative in most threads but I have to tell you Cane Master may be fine for a person in good physical health but if your old and you muscles and nerves to not always work well together it is of little use. One must be healthy to do much of what is taught.

This is actually quite a good point. If one actually needs a cane for mobility then they will have difficulty utilizing the cane effectively as a defensive tool. In fact, depending upon the level of their disability, it may actually be a detriment and put them in greater harm.

Also, if you're healthy and don't need the use of a cane, but carry one and use it you may find yourself in a situation where you have some explaining to do. And they may not help you even if justified in the use of the cane in self-defense.

Just some thoughts to consider.

[texas_rebel_1980]

we debrief after class everynight. i told him i wasn't fond of the cane at all, but that i was doing it because it was his curriculum. he said that is fine. he then told a story of how he didn't like ground fighting but learned out of necessity. I will keep doing it because I really enjoy the rest of the class. I am 30, so I don't see me carrying a Cane anytime soon. But the empty hand techniques are what I focus on.

[Kong Soo Do]

It sounds like you have an instructor that you can be open and honest with, that is a good thing. Continue to enjoy :)

[oftheherd1]

Also remember than many techniques can be modified and used effectively. I once assited my GM teach baton use to some LEO. The baton becomes a small cane without a hook. Should you need to and had access to a small stick or broom handle, your cane techniques might stand you in good stead. Always think inovatively. Ask your teacher.

[texas_rebel_1980]

i actually had some baton training working in the prison system years ago and i find myself striking with the cane like a long baton. my commitment to myself is to do my best and learn it the best i can, even if i don't prefer it.

on a better note: during TKD sparring last night i got my first throw in sparring. grabbed a blue belt and put him down, it felt GREAT to have a technique work.

[oftheherd1]

i actually had some baton training working in the prison system years ago and i find myself striking with the cane like a long baton. my commitment to myself is to do my best and learn it the best i can, even if i don't prefer it.

on a better note: during TKD sparring last night i got my first throw in sparring. grabbed a blue belt and put him down, it felt GREAT to have a technique work.

I can see that might work, but I was thinking more along the line of joint manipulation. Interesting that you are allowed to use Hapkido techniques in free sparing. I take it all students learn both TKD and Hapkido?

[texas_rebel_1980]

no not all. being new, i am not sure about other school's sparring rules, but he encourages us to use take downs and even groin shots. he wants us to be able to defend ourselves. he told me when i started that the school doesn't focus on tournaments and he doesn't teach us to win trophies. he teaches to defend yourself in the streets and the tournaments are by products, or bonuses. basically.

[FearlessFreep]

one thing i worry about is depending on my partners they don't always go hard enough. i try to push them by going harder, but they don't always pick up on it. i believe if you don't train more real life then it won't come to you in a real situation. but, i don't push too much because i am so new.

Don't push it. If you've only been to a handful of classes then likely all your partners have more experience than you; let them set the level unless it's too much for you (and they shouldn't if they are good partners). Martial Arts techniques are like Musical techniques. You can't play "Eruption" after a few weeks of guitar lessons; and playing "harder", pushing "harder and faster" will not help you learn to play it any better or quicker. With any technique but especially with Hapkido, you need to start out easy to get the feel of the technique. Lots of repetitions, take it slow. There will be a time to up the intensity; learn control and precision first because it's always easy to go harder but it's very hard to be more precise on a technique you've been training too hard on.


i believe if you don't train more real life then it won't come to you in a real situation

You are correct in this. In both MA and Music we have parallel sayings: "Practice how you'll play because you'll play how you practice" or "Train how you fight because you fight how you train". *However*! That's only one part of it. The reality is that a real fight has so many variables and so many unknowns that it would be overwhelming if on day 1 the new student was thrown into "ok, we're going to train like we fight!!!" Just like playing in a concert is a different experience than playing in your bedroom and it takes a lot of practice before you can play in your room like you would play a concert, it takes a lot of learning basic techniques and mechanics and partner respect and such before you can open up and start making the training more realistic.

But don't push it too much. As a newbie you're granted a certain amount of grace in the sense that your partners *probably* realize you probably don't have a lot of experience and control and they can mitigate that to avoid injury to themselves or you, but you really don't want to gain a reputation as someone who always pushes too hard because the grace will wear off and you will either not be able to find partners or you will have a partner who will return it with interest

All this is caveated that you are dealing with average students who have various experience levels and know to take it easy on a new student just learning the mechanics of the techniques

[texas_rebel_1980]

thank you for the sound advice. my instructor has paced me actually, as we go through techniques. warnings of potential dangers and thorough explanations have been great and changed my mind about the earlier belief i had. now i practice to make sure i am getting it as perfect as possible and i think the speed and intensity will come from that. thank you again.

[texas_rebel_1980]

so got to the dojang tonight. there was a mat mounted on the wall! we worked on defense against someone pinning us against the wall. it was a lot of fun to work on.

[Cyriacus]

so got to the dojang tonight. there was a mat mounted on the wall! we worked on defense against someone pinning us against the wall. it was a lot of fun to work on.
It is perhaps beneficial that you dont use Brick Walls, like we do :P
Wall Pins + Brick Walls + Self Defense can be... Mats would be nice :)

[Kong Soo Do]

It is perhaps beneficial that you dont use Brick Walls, like we do :P
Wall Pins + Brick Walls + Self Defense can be... Mats would be nice :)

It can be a bugger on dry wall too!!!

Wall pin + dry wall + self-defense = hole in the wall ;)

[texas_rebel_1980]

the instructor said he put the mats up to protect his dry wall....:ultracool

[FearlessFreep]

so got to the dojang tonight. there was a mat mounted on the wall! we worked on defense against someone pinning us against the wall. it was a lot of fun to work on.

Cool :) Sounds like a lot of fun!

[Kong Soo Do]

How is the training going for you?

[iron_ox]

Hell all,

I will go with everyone else on the notion of taking it easy as you have just started with this club. About the cane, I believe that "Combat Hapkido" is formally affiliated with Can Masters, but you have not said if this is what you are learning. Two things about cane masters. The cane material of Hapkido, the cane material taught by Choi Dojunim is simple and effective, and if you need a cane, it works. And if you practiced that material 30 minutes a day, you would be VERY proficient in short order. The cane masters material seems really over complicated.

[texas_rebel_1980]

How is the training going for you?

training is going well. one thing i find difficult is escaping headlocks. i don't know the difference in hapkido styles but my instructor says we study combat hapkido.


Hell all,

I will go with everyone else on the notion of taking it easy as you have just started with this club. About the cane, I believe that "Combat Hapkido" is formally affiliated with Can Masters, but you have not said if this is what you are learning. Two things about cane masters. The cane material of Hapkido, the cane material taught by Choi Dojunim is simple and effective, and if you need a cane, it works. And if you practiced that material 30 minutes a day, you would be VERY proficient in short order. The cane masters material seems really over complicated.

we study the Cane Master system. it is not my favorite part of class, but out of respect to my instructor, i try my very best and learn whatever he teaches. that and it is a requirement of belt tests to demonstrate proficiency with the cane. i prefer to use takedowns and locks and strikes to subdue the attacker. i cannot say if taekowndo or hapkido is my favorite. i love the free sparring in TKD, don't care for point sparring because i will take a little punishment to land a powerful strike(or what would be if you sparred at 100%, you know what i mean) but i love the movement and takedowns in hapkido. my instructor encourages us to practice trying take downs when we learn in hapkido when we free spar in TKD. i love it when somebody hangs that front hand out a little too far, a little too long. i grab that wrist and they are going down! i am pretty much loving my training, even in the heat!!!

[oftheherd1]

training is going well. one thing i find difficult is escaping headlocks. i don't know the difference in hapkido styles but my instructor says we study combat hapkido.

...

What are you being taught to escape a headlock? It should be rather easy using balance and pressure points.

EDIT: Are you talking about headlocks from the side, back, or front?

[texas_rebel_1980]

side head locks

techniques
1. put far arm in front of face to shield punches, put near leg behind attacker, near arm shoots up, palm on face of attacker and push backwards sending attacker to ground.(this one i can do pretty consistently)

2. put far arm up to block attacks, strike groin, face and ribs with near arm, put near leg behind attacker, grab both legs of attacker and pull up, sending attacker to floor.

there are a couple others i don't recall at the moment. i need more practice

rear choke on knees, would work on feet too i believe.
1. secure airway by turning chin to crook of attackers elbow, raise knee of opposite side choke came from, pull down on attackers elbow and roll shoulder forward, attacker comes over your shoulder.(this one worked great for me the first few times we practiced it, last time i had a hard time with it but I think i was leaning backwards before rolling my shoulders forward)

choke from front(guillotine i guess)
1. secure airway, attack groin, cross my shin with attacker's shin, hook foot behind attacker's foot. push knee forward and attacker peels right off. this one works awesome!

[Cyriacus]

side head locks

techniques
1. put far arm in front of face to shield punches, put near leg behind attacker, near arm shoots up, palm on face of attacker and push backwards sending attacker to ground.(this one i can do pretty consistently)

Physics does this one for you. :)

2. put far arm up to block attacks, strike groin, face and ribs with near arm, put near leg behind attacker, grab both legs of attacker and pull up, sending attacker to floor.

Thats a touch awekward. The Strikes are swell, but why not just rest the Knife Edge of your hand on his Lower Sternum, push back, and Kick the Achilles Tendon (Or for Training, just above it) with the inside-side of your Foot? Grabbing BOTH Legs just seems so... To each their own. I mean, it DOES work.

there are a couple others i don't recall at the moment. i need more practice

rear choke on knees, would work on feet too i believe.
1. secure airway by turning chin to crook of attackers elbow, raise knee of opposite side choke came from, pull down on attackers elbow and roll shoulder forward, attacker comes over your shoulder.(this one worked great for me the first few times we practiced it, last time i had a hard time with it but I think i was leaning backwards before rolling my shoulders forward)

A Proper Rear Choke would have the Elbow in the Center of your Throat, with the Free Arm Locking the Choking Arm, cutting off Arteries instead of the Throat. You would have no more than 3-7 Seconds at best to respond, in amongst Delirium, Dazed Vision, and Pain. However, assuming this was a completely Unskilled attack; This is quite Good. It probably wouldnt work standing up though - The Throw relies on the lowered Center of Gravity. It could be improvised though.

choke from front(guillotine i guess)
1. secure airway, attack groin, cross my shin with attacker's shin, hook foot behind attacker's foot. push knee forward and attacker peels right off. this one works awesome!

Yep.


Just My Contribution.

[texas_rebel_1980]

he teaches several techniques. he tells us to decide which ones work best for us and stick to them, but realize there are many other ways out of the same attack. i personally need more practice with all of them to decide what is best for me.

[Cyriacus]

he teaches several techniques. he tells us to decide which ones work best for us and stick to them, but realize there are many other ways out of the same attack. i personally need more practice with all of them to decide what is best for me.
Just remember to not be Captivated by Fancy things. What works Fastest will likely work best, since there is minimalistic time for Retaliation.

[oftheherd1]

side head locks

techniques
1. put far arm in front of face to shield punches, put near leg behind attacker, near arm shoots up, palm on face of attacker and push backwards sending attacker to ground.(this one i can do pretty consistently)

Has your instructor taught you the outside arm grab to the knee with your thumb in the pressure point behind the knee, and lift up? Brings the opponent's leg up quickly and puts him off balance, causing him to fall backwards. You can also grab his hair or the pressure point at the clavicle for advantage to pull the opponent backwards. A dragons fist pressed against the temple as you step back around will also work when his leg is in the air.

2. put far arm up to block attacks, strike groin, face and ribs with near arm, put near leg behind attacker, grab both legs of attacker and pull up, sending attacker to floor.

We use the legs lift for an arm grab where it works well. Trying to lift your opponent while your head is being held down is interesting as long as you aren't being pulled around.

there are a couple others i don't recall at the moment. i need more practice

rear choke on knees, would work on feet too i believe.
1. secure airway by turning chin to crook of attackers elbow, raise knee of opposite side choke came from, pull down on attackers elbow and roll shoulder forward, attacker comes over your shoulder.(this one worked great for me the first few times we practiced it, last time i had a hard time with it but I think i was leaning backwards before rolling my shoulders forward)

I was taught to grab the pressure points between the thumb and first finger, and one inside an elbow, then removing the arm and bringing it into an arm lock or snapping it down breaking the elbow, or snapping the wrist. But those are when the opponent and I are both still standing. I need to work on yours. Sounds interesting.

choke from front(guillotine i guess)
1. secure airway, attack groin, cross my shin with attacker's shin, hook foot behind attacker's foot. push knee forward and attacker peels right off. this one works awesome!

I understand the concept of protecting the face, but our concept is an immediate reaction as the hold is being applied. And anyway, at some point you need both hands for the technique. I agree with the above comment about there being little time and the windpipe not being the primary point to protect. You may have even less time than predicted to react. Speed of response is essential.

I was also taught to expect the opponent's adrenaline to be up and that he may not release his side head lock. That is fine if you are prepared to fall with him, kicking him in the lower ribs with your outside leg's knee. Combined with the momentum of the fall, it makes a very forceful kick. Use your hands to partially break your fall and allow you to get back up in case there are other attackers. But the opponent using the headlock is out of the fight until he figures out how to breath again.

Nothing I have said is intended to slight anything your instructor has taught you. You have already learned the techniques he has taught work. Practice them well and make them effective. What I have mentioned is merely another thing to consider and try if you wish and your instructor will allow. There are a lot of things that can be used, and many variations of techniques. You may find he is reserving some of the techniques for higher belt instruction.

[Kong Soo Do]

Just remember to not be Captivated by Fancy things. What works Fastest will likely work best, since there is minimalistic time for Retaliation.

Excellent advice! Anything that requires refined motor skills or complicated movements is likely to be unusable under duress in a crisis situation. Gross motor skills are automatically reverted to, particularly when manual dexterity is reduced (due to stress and adrenaline dump).

[oftheherd1]

Excellent advice! Anything that requires refined motor skills or complicated movements is likely to be unusable under duress in a crisis situation. Gross motor skills are automatically reverted to, particularly when manual dexterity is reduced (due to stress and adrenaline dump).

Quite correct sir! I think most Hapkido, and certainly that which I learned, has little that is complicated. Just effective. I think some people misunderstand when they see demos of Hapkido where more than one technique is combined for demo and show. Most techniques, at least as I was taught, are simple, straight-forward, quick, and rather mercyless. As practicioners, MA have the advantage over those you have mentioned teaching. I think they indeed do well with a lot of gross motor skill learning. But isn't most of the Hapkido you learned that way?

[Kong Soo Do]

As practicioners, MA have the advantage over those you have mentioned teaching.

I'm not sure what you mean here?


I think they indeed do well with a lot of gross motor skill learning. But isn't most of the Hapkido you learned that way?

Yes, absolutely. The Hapkido and/or Aikijujutsu and/or Chin Na that I've studied was pretty direct and to the point. As you've stated, 'mercyless'. :)

[oftheherd1]

As practicioners, MA have the advantage over those you have mentioned teaching.
__________________________________________________ _____________________


I'm not sure what you mean here?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to your previous thread on teaching LEO in short semminars. I agreed with you then and do now, that simple gross motor skills are the best teaching method for them. Also that absent spending a lot of time with continuous practice in a dojo, that method, with yearly refresher, is best for them.

But that is why I think MA have the advantage, because we do spend a lot of time practicing. We can do things more without thinking, just reacting. So we can take our gross motor skills to a higher level so to speak. And if there are techniques that are a little more complicated (compared to some simple things we might teach in a seminar), we can learn them and they also become part of our reactive repertroire.

Hope I am stating that so it makes sense.

Yes, absolutely. The Hapkido and/or Aikijujutsu and/or Chin Na that I've studied was pretty direct and to the point. As you've stated, 'mercyless'. :)

Quite why many of our techniques can be taught so easily. Just a few good ones, pushed down someone's throat for a couple of weeks, will be more likely to stay with them. Especially if we can convince them to keep practicing them in their mind, and thinking of situations where they might work well. If they keep doing that, along with occasional physical practice under supervision of their department's SD trainer, they will be well served.

Am I on track with your experience?

[Kong Soo Do]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to your previous thread on teaching LEO in short semminars. I agreed with you then and do now, that simple gross motor skills are the best teaching method for them. Also that absent spending a lot of time with continuous practice in a dojo, that method, with yearly refresher, is best for them.

But that is why I think MA have the advantage, because we do spend a lot of time practicing. We can do things more without thinking, just reacting. So we can take our gross motor skills to a higher level so to speak. And if there are techniques that are a little more complicated (compared to some simple things we might teach in a seminar), we can learn them and they also become part of our reactive repertroire.


Okay, gotcha now ;) I agree that the longer one has for training, the more 'advanced' they can become in their reactions. Too bad a greater amount of time isn't available in law enforcement, corrections, security etc. I think that everyone one will have their favorite 'go-to' tactics, but as you mentioned, someone that has a greater training time invested can have a more involved principle/technique/strategy/tactic in their tool box.

[texas_rebel_1980]

alright, so i was wrong about learning combat hapkido. we are learning traditional. my instructor gave me a sheet with the requirements for Traditional Hapkido, Second Stripe. i test next week. i earned my advanced yellow belt in TKD, i feel it is time to test in Hapkdo as well.

[oftheherd1]

Glad to hear you have stayed with your training and are apparently enjoying it. Let us know how you do on your test. BTW, there is nothing wrong with traditional Hapkido imho. It is a combat Hapkido, but doesn't have the same name and emphasis. I would assume both are quite valid.

[texas_rebel_1980]

passed my hapkido test today, 8th Gup. i now wear a yellow belt with a white stripe. i was again humbled by my test, though i now know how i need to train. rather than "here grab my wrist" its going to be, "grab me/punch me and i will react". granted i am still a beginner, i now see the direction i want to go with my training.

between other student's test, we practice board breaking. i was able to break five boards with a hammer fist, i was pleased being my first time breaking. and i must say they were the rebreakable boards as well.

[oftheherd1]

Congratulations on passing your first test! Also on committing to Hapkido as the MA you wish to train in.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Congrats TR1980!! That is fantastic!