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Bill Mattocks
06-26-2011, 08:45 AM
IWKA 2011 Tournament in Indianapolis.

Men's advanced underbelt ages 45+. I came third out of five competitors. It was hard-fought and I am somewhat damaged. My left hand is completely jammed (lesson: do not block low kicks with an open hand), I was punched so hard in the upper right chest near my right shoulder that I think I may have a cracked rib (hurts to breathe, laugh, cough, sneeze, etc), and I fell painfully onto one knee and that's all bruised up. It was awesome.

Let me tell you, I've sparred before in competitions, but these guys are some rock-a-rollers. The real deal. They hit, they hit hard. This ain't no game of tag like the other competitions I was in. It's supposed to be, though...as I found out when I dishonored karate.

Let me just start by saying that for the first time sparring, I felt that I had accomplished something. I actually lost my first match, but I felt I was winning. I was using a new stance, with my trailing arm held low over my abdomen, to block the kicks to the midsection that had been destroying me in previous competitions. It worked. I was blocking kicks very well. I was told by others that my biggest problem now is failure to immediately capitalize on the block by following up with an attack - good info. But I was frustrated my first bout. My opponent and I were pretty evenly-matched, I thought. Both stocky guys who like to fight inside. He threw more kicks, but as I blocked them all (I think), he abandoned them and we started going toe-to-toe punching. But I was landing shots left and right - they were not being called. Four corner judges and no one was seeing these shots I was getting in! And believe me, I'm no prima donna; in every previous competition, I lost fair and square, no whining. I was just elated that I was doing things right, but no calls were coming my way! I noticed that my opponent was ki-ing after every punch, maybe that was it.

Anyway, after a bit, his punches on me were not being called either. We'd just break apart, both knowing a point had been scored, and the center judge would say "Well? What are you waiting for? Fight!" So we'd shrug and go again. I heard 'time' called, but I think the center judge didn't hear it; we kept going. And since no one was calling our hits, we started to hit harder. He kicked me in the slats (I was protected, no damage) and I punched him in the face (a no-no, lack of control on my part). We slammed body blows into each other like rock-em-sock-em robots. Nothing. I mean, four corner judges, we are hitting each other so hard that the sound was attacking people from all over the room, and nothing was being called! Not mine, not his, nothing! So we went at each other hammer and tongs. Our time was even up (I think) and nothing...so we kept on hammering at each other.

Then we heard the command to 'yame!' and were told to kneel facing apart. I did not know what was going on.

Turns out that Kichiro Shimabuku Sensei was watching our bout. He chewed out the judges for letting us get so physical. We had dishonored karate. We were stood up and ordered to stop driving our punches home with every shot. I wanted to say "But sensei, you seem not to see our light punches," but one does not argue with the ref, so I simply said "Yes, sir." He said "We all see you know how to fight, but this is supposed to be light-touch sparring!"

So the head of the entire IWKA thought my opponent and I were a disgrace for hitting so hard, and the judges were all dressed down good and proper, and Sensei ordered that the entire division fight all over again from the beginning. Oops.

So we fought again. Once again, I was happy with my performance. I missed with a kick and slipped on the carpeted floor of the hotel we were in, and fell on my knee awkwardly, so that's kind of bruised up. I advanced and eventually had to fight for third place.

In my last bout, I fought an opponent who was tall and lanky, so I figured he would try to keep me outside and use kicks on me. I was right. Unfortunately, I think he got frustrated with me blocking all his kicks and moving in on him, and he threw a real strong snap kick straight up at me, and I tried to pat-block it down with an open hand. My fingers were extended, and his kick just devastated them. My glove actually flew off and I fell to the ground in pain.

They stopped the match for a minute or so for me to get my composure and see if my fingers were broken or not. They seemed to be just jammed badly. They asked if I could continue and of course I said yes. I would have wanted to continue if I had to staple my head back on, you know? So one of the corner judges strapped my glove back on for me and I went back in. This time, I backed my opponent up with blocking his kicks and punching him until he was nearly out of the ring. I could see how frustrated he was getting (and by the way, my body blows were getting counted about half the time). I wanted that win very badly now. He did land one very nice kick on me that I utterly failed to see, right on the point of my hip - no damage, but it was like the old days when I missed blocking every kick. Anyway, I had him backed up to the edge of the ring, and he shot a strong straight left into my upper right chest, near the shoulder. He must have had some smoke on it, because the pain that shot through me was incredible, and it knocked me back - I'm not easy to knock back when I'm moving forward. Everybody gasped. I came back up into a fighting position, but the judge stopped the match and we had to kneel down facing away again.

The judges had a short confab and my opponent was disqualified for excessive use of force. I felt badly - I know I was hit hard, but I wanted to continue. I did not want to win like that. I went over and told my opponent that in my opinion, he had with with that shot and we both knew it. He seemed like a really nice guy; I sure felt bad over it and I know he wasn't happy either.

So that was it. I collected my trophy, got a team photo taken with my dojomates (they all did great, and congrats to them) and threw on my jeans and drove back to Detroit.

I'm hurting a bunch. The ribs are bad, I may go to the ER later today to get an x-ray. That was one hell of a punch. The fingers are my fault. I hope they heal up by the end of July, when I'm sparring at the Isshin-Ryu Hall of Fame Tournament in Chattanooga, TN.

So that's the story. First competition I've felt good about in terms of my own performance. I knew I was improving, but having kick after kick slammed into my midsection while I stood there and took it was driving me nuts. A dojomate showed me a different way of holding my guard, and I tried it and it worked really well. Turns out I have a good low block against kicks, as long as I can get there in time (and keep my bloody fingers in a fist, duh). So win or lose, I felt I did really well. Top of the world. And I have all respect for my opponents. Great guys, good fighters, and I was privileged to be allowed to fight them.

terryl965
06-26-2011, 09:32 AM
Bill glad you had a great time and believe me the judges did more dis-honor than you. They should have called points and controlled the match better, you was a warrior and did what had to be done.

Twin Fist
06-26-2011, 10:33 AM
horse hockey

by texas standards, you brought honor to your instructor. There is no shame in what you did, the judges created a situation, you and the guy you were fighting agreed to step up the power, and this is KARATE, not tap dancing

i am proud of you.

Bill Mattocks
06-26-2011, 11:05 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/5872654935_68605079dc_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/5872654935/)
Holloway's Isshin-Ryu Karate Dojo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/5872654935/) by Wigwam Jones (http://www.flickr.com/people/wigwam/), on Flickr

Himura Kenshin
06-26-2011, 11:29 AM
Shimabuku, himself, was there? And he said that? Ouch man.

Not being there I can't know for sure, but don't you think he was chewing out the judges instead of you for allowing things to go like that? Sounds like you and your opponents were both dealing with the situation the only way any martial artist would in a tournament setting. I mean, if they aren't calling anyone's shots what else are you supposed to do?

From Simabuku's perspective he must have seen something he considered out of control, but it was not like you and your opponent were being malicious. Your attitudes were respectful and therefore like Twin Fist said, I feel you've done honor to your art and your teacher.

Bill Mattocks
06-26-2011, 11:35 AM
Shimabuku, himself, was there? And he said that? Ouch man.

Not being there I can't know for sure, but don't you think he was chewing out the judges instead of you for allowing things to go like that? Sounds like you and your opponents were both dealing with the situation the only way any martial artist would in a tournament setting. I mean, if they aren't calling anyone's shots what else are you supposed to do?

From Simabuku's perspective he must have seen something he considered out of control, but it was not like you and your opponent were being malicious. Your attitudes were respectful and therefore like Twin Fist said, I feel you've done honor to your art and your teacher.

He was, he did. I don't know if he meant us (fighters) personally or not. I heard others there say that we (Americans) are considered savages in the way we fight. Kind of makes you proud in a way...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5075/5872684837_25bc35a749_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/5872684837/)
100_3623 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/5872684837/) by Wigwam Jones (http://www.flickr.com/people/wigwam/), on Flickr

tshadowchaser
06-26-2011, 11:41 AM
Not sure what the rules where but In my opinion you and your opponent did exactly what the head judge and the other judges want. Had they been controlling the ring you and your opponent would not have been told you disgraced anyone. In truth if the judges had to be dressed down they all should have been removed.
Now if you had fun and learned from the tournament then it was all worth the time and pain.
On a personal note sounds like old time sparring at tournaments except you had pads on. I know I was always told that if they did not call a point that was thrown “ throw it a little harder the next time”. That seems to be what you and your opponent did and what the judges want and the two of you simply followed the lead of the judges.
I do hope that you and your opponent gave each other a hug and then maybe walked around and talked to each other after so that no hard feeling where created.

I see no disgrace in your envolment
The fact that you are not complaning shows you have the hart of a martial artist

Sukerkin
06-26-2011, 11:45 AM
Aye, like John and all above have said, you dishonoured nothing my friend :bows:.

I am proud of you too - I've taken a kick on the fingers like you describe as well at one time (no gloves or padding in those bad old Lau days) and I returned to the fight too. In my case the bout was stopped because my hand had turned into a bunch of banana's :o.

Wear your bruises as badges, good sir. We honour you even if the rules of the match did not :sensei rei:.

elder999
06-26-2011, 11:48 AM
Ya done good, Bill-and I'm sure he was chewing out the judges, maybe trying to rein things in a bit-and it had the desired effect-but you guys were just doing what circumstances dictated.......hope your hand feels better soon!

Thesemindz
06-26-2011, 11:56 AM
There're plenty of guys in the "Horror Stories" forum who've dishonored the art. This just sounds like a good old fashioned karate love fest. I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Good luck with the hand. I broke a thumb a few months ago in class and after randomly dropping things for weeks when my grip would suddenly fail it's finally starting to heal up. Broken hands suck. But they usually get better.

Here's to the savages.


-Rob

Bill Mattocks
06-26-2011, 12:00 PM
I do hope that you and your opponent gave each other a hug and then maybe walked around and talked to each other after so that no hard feeling where created.

We did, thanks. All of us talked, shook hands, did the man-hug thing, and talked about various aspects of the fight. The guy I was slugging it out with is a great guy. Turns out that one of the newer students in my dojo (a black belt) knows him from the dojo she used to be at in Indiana, and she told me that if I can stand toe-to-toe with him, I'm doing well, because he's a good fighter. I told her I thought I had beat him the first go-round on points, only they weren't getting called. She said well, maybe yes maybe no, but in any case, she'd have to take his side because she knew him a long time and they're buddies. Hey, no problem!

I liked everyone I met at the tournament. Great people without exception. I hold no grudge against the judges either; they can only call what they see and for all I know, they just could not see my punches. Hey, it happens. At least *I* knew I did a much better job this time around, and that's important to me - slow, steady, progress is all I ask of myself.

Hey, I forgot to say, I met Sensei John Bartusevics, a 1st Generation American student of Shimabuku Soke's, and a fellow Marine. We chatted and compared tattoos - we have the same "USMC" tattoo! He's also a great guy - but why not - he's a Marine!

poollshark
06-26-2011, 12:10 PM
What everyone else said, sounds like you handled the situation appropriately. Good luck at the Hall of Fame tourney!

Makalakumu
06-26-2011, 12:57 PM
I had a similar experience at my last tournament in 2007. My opponent and I scored points on each other, they weren't called, we got more physical and got chewed out. It's just part of the sport. I told my students at the time that rather then letting their emotions get the best of them, use the opportunity to show some self discipline and let the moment stand for other moments in their lives where something similar happened.

I'm not sure what Shimabuku was trying to say because I know for a fact the same kind of thing happens in Japan. We're all human, we put our pants on one leg at a time, even Karate masters.

Thesemindz
06-26-2011, 02:14 PM
Even karate Masters?


-Rob

WC_lun
06-26-2011, 08:23 PM
The job of the judges is to create a climate in "the ring" which follows the rules and spirit of that particular tournament. It is one of the reasons judges are generally chosen at tournaments and not just luck of the draw. It is also why the judges usually have a meeting with the tournament coordinator in which expectations are defined. The judges in your case lost control of the ring because of thier inability to call points or call you competitors back on your power BEFORE it became an issue. I have seen judges yanked from a ring for showing such lack of ring control. You did what comes natural for a fighter in those circumstances. So if nothing else you can call yourslef a natural sport fighter ;) Good job!

elder999
06-26-2011, 08:30 PM
And heck, it sounds pretty tame for kyokushin tournament, where hard contact (and, some in Japan might say, savagery) is the rule....

seasoned
06-26-2011, 10:08 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/5872654935_68605079dc_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/5872654935/)
Holloway's Isshin-Ryu Karate Dojo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/5872654935/) by Wigwam Jones (http://www.flickr.com/people/wigwam/), on Flickr
Great picture, Bill. The great experience about tournaments is that we come back from them a little wiser and a lot smarter. You are involved in some great times, some of the best in your training experience because, outside of the dojo, you get a chance to see what works for you. The blow by blow was awesome to read, thanks.

Bill Mattocks
06-26-2011, 11:00 PM
Great picture, Bill. The great experience about tournaments is that we come back from them a little wiser and a lot smarter. You are involved in some great times, some of the best in your training experience because, outside of the dojo, you get a chance to see what works for you. The blow by blow was awesome to read, thanks.

Thank you! One of my dojomate's son apparently video'd my bouts, and he said he'd upload them to Youtube; so I hope he does and I'll share them with you - and hope my memory and description match reality. I could not ask my dojomates to video me with my camera because we were sparring at the same time - they didn't see me and I didn't see them. But I'll let everyone knows if the video my dojomate's son took with his cell phone gets uploaded.

Brian R. VanCise
06-26-2011, 11:59 PM
In the end what is important is that you had a good time. Made some new friends and most importantly, hopefully you learned some thing from the sparring that may help you in the future!http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

Brandon Fisher
06-27-2011, 01:12 AM
Bill,
Congrats on you placement!! I am not sure what happened that the judges dropped the ball on not following the rules but as one of the floor coordinators for the event something went incredibly wrong. As someone who has trained in Shimabuku Sensei's dojo in Okinawa I can assure you that if he stopped it himself it was extremely excessive. He likes the hardcore karate. The judges were not innocent either though I will say its hard to call those inside points. Unfortunately I was in the other room and did not see what happened at all. In fact I had not heard about it until now.

Anyway thanks for stopping me before the tournament and introducing yourself, it was nice meeting you and I wish we had of had some time to sit and chat. I hope my input on the stances was helpful. Good luck at IHoF.

Bill Mattocks
06-27-2011, 08:15 AM
Bill,
Congrats on you placement!! I am not sure what happened that the judges dropped the ball on not following the rules but as one of the floor coordinators for the event something went incredibly wrong. As someone who has trained in Shimabuku Sensei's dojo in Okinawa I can assure you that if he stopped it himself it was extremely excessive. He likes the hardcore karate. The judges were not innocent either though I will say its hard to call those inside points. Unfortunately I was in the other room and did not see what happened at all. In fact I had not heard about it until now.

Anyway thanks for stopping me before the tournament and introducing yourself, it was nice meeting you and I wish we had of had some time to sit and chat. I hope my input on the stances was helpful. Good luck at IHoF.

Thanks, Brandon! I enjoyed meeting you as well. I knew you were super-busy, so I didn't want to take up your time. As to the judging, please understand that I'm not complaining - I know full well that the judges can only call what they see, and just because I *think* I'm scoring points doesn't mean that a) I am doing so or b) that a judge sees it. My comments were more based on explaining why I think my opponent and I stepped it up a couple notches; we both talked about it with each other later and we thought we were doing what we had to do to get any points noticed; we were really going at each other in the end. Not in an angry way - both of us enjoyed the contest completely. I don't think either of us was out of control or mad or anything, which I've seen at karate matches when people lose their temper. We were fully under control emotionally; we were just blasting each other with nearly full-power. It was actually cool to be able to take and give like that, to stand toe-to-toe and go at it. But I realized that's not what point-sparring is supposed to be.

So no complaints, honest! Not about the judging, not about the results, and the tournament itself was absolutely top-notch and incredibly well-run.

OKenpo942
06-27-2011, 11:10 PM
Well, I am glad to hear that you had a great time. Too bad about the injuries, but it sounds like you did what anyone would have done in that situation. Sounds to me like the judges failed you. Had they done a good job, you may not have had to increase the power and amount of contact that led to the injuries. Well done in my opinion.

James

Sensei Payne
06-28-2011, 10:06 AM
by the way you write it...it sounds like you did a fantastic job.

Its not your fault that the ref wasn't doing his job. You have to defend yourself, and you want to win, so really, you and the other guy are the victims here.

Dishonored Karate, I think not. You simply were able to show your stuff. This is one of those situations where your instructor should be proud.

Balrog
06-28-2011, 10:37 AM
Turns out that Kichiro Shimabuku Sensei was watching our bout. He chewed out the judges for letting us get so physical. We had dishonored karate. We were stood up and ordered to stop driving our punches home with every shot. I wanted to say "But sensei, you seem not to see our light punches," but one does not argue with the ref, so I simply said "Yes, sir." He said "We all see you know how to fight, but this is supposed to be light-touch sparring!"

So the head of the entire IWKA thought my opponent and I were a disgrace for hitting so hard, and the judges were all dressed down good and proper, and Sensei ordered that the entire division fight all over again from the beginning. Oops.

FWIW - I don't think you dishonored karate. In fact, you did what you are supposed to do: you responded to the situation and the environment.

I highlighted what I think is the significant part of your post. The judges screwed up, not you. You, in fact, were acting from the "moral" high ground. Your judges were hosing you and your opponent, and yet you still acted toward them with courtesy and respect. I personally would not have restarted the match, but that's just me.

I hope you are not seriously injured. If you are, please take your time and don't rush your recovery. There are always other tournaments, but there is only one you.

<bowing while typing>

Victor Smith
06-28-2011, 10:40 AM
Bill,

While I'm long removed from the tournament circuit your story could have been anytime from the past 40 years.

An amateur tournament allows you to pay to compete, nothing else.

The rules will or won't be followed, but as those tournaments are designed for nothing but specific skill usage to do otherwise is to not play by the rules either. The competitors are not wrong, it is impossible for most competitors to really know what is happening when they're fighting. Error is always 100% the responsibility of the head judge.

When fighting for points the judge can only call what they see, and unless you have a camera on over each judge shoulder you can't say what they did see. It is the head judge who should oversee what's happening, and keep things under control.

Apparently Shimabuku Sensei's comments about the disgrace to karate should have been directed only at the head judge and to a lessor degree the corner judges. It's their respective responsibility to keep the competitors in control by the rules. But truthfully as you have no idea if the judges have any judging skill, and the reality as non-professional judges are human and the scale of what they permits keeps sliding because they're human (presuming there are no other reasons) things happen.

The concept of amateur tournament is not to prove who can take or give power, just to show skill at correct delivery and defense. If more is required then one should compete in an appropriate venue.

Yet amateur competition can be very heavy and dangerous. You still learn lessons about what works and what doesn't in those circumstances and there are carry over values to other situations.

As for scoring, from experience on both sides, competitor and judge, inside techniques that work are often difficult to have judges see because of the moving nature of the competitors.

1. if the judges don't see and agree no matter how hard you hit there is no point.
2. higher and longer range techniques permit a larger line to allow the eye to follow and often get more points.
3. Sound like Kiai can re-inforce judges seeing a move (even one that doesn't hit and get points) hence some will use it extensively. Sloppy judging allows points that aren't there.
4. No matter what happens the judges call the points and determine the winner, period.
Unless the judges permit there is no 2nd call. Thus they're always 'Right!', perhaps not correct but Right.
5. Taking and giving hard strikes, or being able to get up and keep competing are 2nd to the decision of the winner. That's the nature of the contest.
6. On a personal note being able to get back up is a false competition value, if in real life you were downed and they complete the technique followup, that's the end.
7. Tournaments, skilled or unskilled, are just what they are, nothing more or less.

Just my observation. Congrats on your successes and you 'survival.

best wishes

Brian King
06-28-2011, 11:16 AM
I cannot comment on the honor/dishonor of Karate as I only studied a bit as a child nearly forty years ago and do not know your organization. I was wondering if the chewing down by Kichiro Shimabuku Sensei was in English... Sometimes things get confused in translations or second languages.

What I do like (very much) in the OP is that you are not concentrating on the negative. SO many people narrowly focus on the mistakes and gloss over what they did right. Lessons are to be learned and both the positive and negative teach them. Your being able to constructively look at both bodes well for your continued improvements.

Congratulations and well done.

Your ribs might be cracked or separated which is just as painful. It happens. Hope that your recovery is quick and full

Regards
Brian King

MJS
06-28-2011, 11:24 AM
Congrats Bill!! Sounds like you had a great time! :)

David43515
06-29-2011, 05:52 AM
I`m glad for you Bill. Hope everything heals up in time for the next big one, and I hope that new guard works out for you.

David43515
06-29-2011, 05:54 AM
We're all human, we put our pants on one leg at a time, even Karate masters.

Yep......then they practice the fine art of killing people with their bare hands.

Cyriacus
07-01-2011, 09:59 PM
The way i see it, the Judges werent paying attention, and you, as well as your opponent, got carried away. It happens.
It isnt a dishonor - Its quite like if you hit someone in no-contact sparring. You dont go thrash yourself about it. You apologise, help the person up if they went down, and ask if theyd like to keep going.
Much in the same way, since what you were doing was supposed to be Light Contact, and youre the one with the Rib injury. And fingers, if i read correctly.

The important thing is, that you do more or less what you did, and focus on the positives. But as far as i for one am concearned, misconduct is only dishonor if it was deliberate, or if it occurs several times. Otherwise, just learn from your mistakes :)

Sandanchris
07-07-2011, 03:44 PM
That's Awesome Bill!

Im glad you had a good time, brused up and all!
Really cool trophy!

Keep up the good work!

Chris