Average price for instruction

[superdave]

I was wondering what everyone pays on average for their instruction. Here in Maryland, the schools that I have checked out are about $70-80 per month. A few were at the $100 mark, plus a $300 enrollment few. I can't afford that much for instruction, especially at a school where you can only go to class 2 days a week.

SuperDave

[Klondike93]

$99 a month for 2 classes a week or $109 + a enrollment fee (I don't know what it is though) for the black belt club program.
The black belt club has unlimited classes and discounts on seminars and things like that.
After checking around that's about average for here in Colorado.


:asian:

[Cthulhu]

My situation was a bit different, since my instructor was active military. So, the fees I paid weren't indicative of the area. I paid $20/month and there was no 'enrollment fee', unless you count the cost of my gi. We met four times a week, from 2 - 4 hours per class. Stripe tests were $5 and belt tests were $20. If you aced a test (tests were graded on a % system, so acing would be 100%), the test fee was refunded. A couple of times, when I was testing for my second stripe, I did well enough to skip that stripe and advance to the next belt. In those cases, I paid for just the belt test, not the stripe+belt. Black belt tests have no fee.

At the time (early 90's), I believe the other schools in the area charged anywhere from $40-$100 per month. Some required contracts. I have no idea if there were any enrollment fees.

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

I live in a small town. When my Tai Chi instructor moved away I went from paying $22/month for up to 5 Tai Chi lessons per week (each an hour to an hour and a half) to paying $98/month for up to 4 JKD/BJJ lessons per week (each an hour and 15 min. to an hour and a half) plus the opportunity for as many more in a town nearly two hours away where the same instructor teaches the other half of the week. The JKD/BJJ fee includes full access to a very nice private gym in which the classes are offered but I don't need that--I have a great gym through work. There are belt testing fees as well. It's more than I had wanted to pay but getting both JKD and BJJ was too much to pass up, and the instructor and atmosphere are great.

[Blindside]

Sorry for the aside but....

Arnisador,

How do the belt testing fees work with the school? Since you test (or don't test in most cases) so infrequently in BJJ, and JKD doesn't normally have belts, it doesn't seem very profitable. Just curious.

Thanks,

Lamont

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Blindside
Arnisador,

How do the belt testing fees work with the school? Since you test (or don't test in most cases) so infrequently in BJJ, and JKD doesn't normally have belts, it doesn't seem very profitable. Just curious.

I am too new to the school to respond with much knowledge, but the JKD part has a belt ranking system that is internal to this particular school--I don't really understand how it works yet--and I think the BJJ may have stripes as well as regular belts though again I am not certain. (Either the JKD or BJJ system, or both, has stripes.) It is my understanding that a number of JKD instructors are slowly moving toward belts for obvious reasons but again I am quite new to both JKD and BJJ.

[Blindside]

Hi Superdave,

Those prices sound about right for the Seattle area, I didn't really blink about paying 60-85 for three times a week training. I never really went higher than that. In Wyoming, where my normal school is we run just $40 dollars a month for 4 nights instruction plus an "open" Saturday. However, nobody is trying to make a living off of this school, we're just trying to keep the lights on.

Lamont

[tshadowchaser]

In the area I live in I see prices range from $75 per month plus a sign up fee and uniform fee and school patch fee equaling about $225 dollors output for the first class ( aTKD sxhool) to other schools that range from 50 - 75 a month.
I would not even guess what the testing fee is at that TD school.I do know that it used to range from $25 for the first (yellow) to over 300 for the Black but that was years ago.
My own school $30 a month monday -thursday
No testing fee. I dont let anyone where a uniform for the first month The school patch belongs to me I allow the student to wear it while they study, if they leave I want i back, so there is no fee for the patch.
Shadow

[GouRonin]

With the exception of a few, (These people and schools know who they are and I have great respect for them for what they are doing) most Kenpoists are all about the money. Huge fees paid for privates, huge fees paid for classes. It is quickly becoming the new TKD of the martial arts. I don't mean to say that TKD isn't good. What I mean is that it's becoming the new cash grab. The art of Kenpo can only suffer because of this. You don't need to charge huge dollars. I know. I see people who don't and do great for themselves. My instructor and friends don't charge big bucks and do ok.

What really saddens me is that there are those who feel if they are not paying big bucks they are not getting anything good. Can you believe that? To make a choice of schools and instructors based on how much you get charged? That's pathetic.

I have never charged anyone any money for anything I have done for them relating to martial arts and I volunteer at a friend's school whenever I can. In fact, there have been rumbling of him thinking about paying people. If he tries that I will only take the money and put it into a fund to bring in an instructor for a seminar. As far as I am concerned I do what I do because I WANT to.

This subject burns my butt because I have been burned by cash hungry people. I have always paid my debt, real or even sometimes imagined. But you can be damn sure that it'll only happen once and when they come back around with their hand out again they'll get nothing.

Too many people want to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs only to open it up and realize now that it's dead it's worth nothing.
:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

[kenpo_cory]

My kenpo instructor charges $50 a month. He has classes Monday through Friday two classes a day (morning and evening) each class an hour long. On Mondays and Thursdays we have an "advanced class" in addition to the regular classes I mentioned above, any one purple belt and up can attend. It's not really "advanced" per say, I think its just a reason for my instructor to teach more, which is fine with me. He has been in the same dojo since 1983 and seems to be doing just fine on the price he charges. Belt tests are $20 and stripe checks are free. I have looked around and the price everyone is quoting seems to be the norm for other arts around here (about $70-$80 a month). There aren't really many kenpo dojos in my area, so he could get away with charging a lot more but he says he doesn’t do it completely for the money. I say completely because his dojo is his only income so he has to eat somehow. I'm just glad I don’t have to pay the price i've read here or I wouldn’t be able to enjoy kenpo, guess i'm just lucky.

[tshadowchaser]

As I have said I charge very little to those that pay for instruction. Most of the time I pay over half of the rental fee on the building out of my pocket. When I came along in the arts there where many instructors that would teach without chargeing if the student could not afford it. Most of my life I paid verry little for istruction but I would clean the school, cut and chop wood, or help paint or roof the instructors house. What ever I could to pay in a diffrent way. Thats the way I try to do it today The same as I was treated.
When I was studying Kenpo I watched People paying and paying for "privates" then payin for tests. I didn't agree with the practice but it seemed to be the rule rather than the exception when chargeing fees. I have to agree with GouRonin on this the chargeing of students today by most Kenpo (or maybe even most instructors in most systems) is way out of hand. There are few instructors who teach because they love the art and want to pass on their art, most seem to only want BIG MONEY.
Shadow

[meni]

Money, money and more money

With all the respect to Gou and Shadow, I have to disagree with you
Martial arts instructors are entitled to charge as much as any other private tutor I know what I charge for a private class and I know what my Doc. Charge for his 10 min of seeing me. If you ask around most people pay 40-60 bucks for 45 min. and most of the time what the teach you is nothing, in martial arts the instructors teaches you something that is extremely viable for each and every person therefore I don’t see any reason why not to charge per class or per month or for private, I always consider my teachers a professionals and as professionals they deserve to get paid!


with all the respect

[GouRonin]

I have no problem with paying professionals. Unfortunatly some of these pros have let their rank go to their head.

I know a 5th with charges 75.00$ an hour to teach crap. But the thing is his students don't know it. They think it's great! Plus since they pay so much they figure it's better. I know a 9th who was there with the old man who charges at LEAST 25% less and will give you way more info.

To equate it to a doctor...well... these guys who inflate their rank to charge more are crooks and if they were doctors padding their credentials then they'd go to jail for fraud.

[Kirk]

I paid 149 down. I got a ghi, 4 patches, belt, padded gloves, a
mouth piece, and the first month covered. A service company
goes directly into my account and takes out 59 bucks per each
month. The school I train at is clean, there's a weight room,
and we have 2 kenpo instruction days, and 2 escrima days.
It's in a decent side of town, and has yet to be vandalized. I
think the fees are acceptable.

[disciple]

Do you think instructors in some arts usually charge more than other arts? How about location? As what businessmen say "Location, Location, and Location" But then again some instructors are not businessmen

salute
:asian:

[warder]

Im not a kenpo man, but this forum seems like it is open to all. This i feel is an important topic. and this is a great forum for us to discuss this. We all love to train, and apparently martial arts means more to us than just class, or else we wouldnt be on this page. the fact that we are all here writing to each other shows that this isnt just a hobby or a sport. THIS IS OUR WAY OF LIF. I pay $80 a month for my TKD classes. That entails 3-5 1hr classes a week, plus seminars at discounted prices. as for belt tests, it conts $5 for belt tests till you get your black belt. then the test runs ito the hundreds. But the hidden gold mine is my BJJ class at Saunders BJJ, We pay 130 for 3 months. Classes are scheduled for an hour and a half. Ive never been to a class that lasted less than 2hrs. Kyles class, for those in the area is amazing. we go till kyle is ready to quit. and it seems that he is never ready to quit. Saunders BJJ is a hidden gem in the central new york martial arts world.
Fred

[jaybacca72]

i charge $20/hr cnd. and that is for privates at my house with one person or two. and believe me they get thier moneys worth and probably more than they should hehe and you guys know who you are right gou!haha
later
jay

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by jaybacca72
i charge $20/hr cnd. and that is for privates at my house with one person or two. and believe me they get thier moneys worth and probably more than they should hehe and you guys know who you are right gou!haha later jay

Jaybacca's the gem in our area. I just wish i could get out more to his place to train.

[Nate_Hoopes]

I pay $225 per month for their "premium" package, it includes; four hours of private instruction per month, As many group classes as i want to attend (group classes are everyday except sundays), plus shootfighting/sparring class every monday, I dig the private instruction, keeps me from holding back anyone that might be better than me, as well as makes sure im not held back by anyone else. $225/mo. may seem like alot, but i get a lot for what i pay for.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Nate_Hoopes
I pay $225 per month for their "premium" package, it includes; four hours of private instruction per month, As many group classes as i want to attend (group classes are everyday except sundays), plus shootfighting/sparring class every monday, I dig the private instruction, keeps me from holding back anyone that might be better than me, as well as makes sure im not held back by anyone else. $225/mo. may seem like alot, but i get a lot for what i pay for.

I am glad you think this and are happy. Personally, I think that's quite a lot.

[Nate_Hoopes]

Not so bad considering i usually spend a minimum of 12-16 hours per month trainining in the school with the instructors, plus im in the silicon valley, one of the most expensive regions in the country.

[AvPKenpo]

Wow Nate,
I know that Silicon Valley is expensive and everything but man. That sucks. How much do you pay for your housing?

The fees at our school are not bad at all. When I signed up 5 years ago, I payed $60 a month. That included: 1 private lesson a week, I believe three group classes at night. and 3 group classes in early afternoon. You could also come in anytime and work out. With me signing my contract 5 years ago I am still locked in at that price. I believe it is around $80 a month now. With the same type of package.

When I first started I trained 4-5 days a week usually 2 hours a night, about 30 hours a month. Now I train 3 nights a week, 3 hours a night for a total of 36-40 hours a month.

Michael

[Nate_Hoopes]

My housing runs around $1800 per month before all the bills the $1800 is just for rent.

[disciple]

:erg: really? $1800? I could've paid mortgage with that and more...that is if I had a house:D

salute
:asian:

[Nate_Hoopes]

We actually rent a small house that is owned by my parents, and if you think thats bad if my parents hadnt rented the house to us they were going to jack up the rent on our old place to $2400 per month, that would have been for a 900 sq ft. apartment, were in a 1200 sq ft house now, for the same price we were paying before, rent is insane here man, coming down a bit recently, i know for a few months there the silicon valley actually cost more than New York city in terms of apartment rent.

[cypress]

I pay $30 a month for two classes per week 1 1/2 hour each. This is in Hawaii.

[Goldendragon7]

As an average across the country..... you will find that most studios will charge between $30 to $100.00 per month depending where you are located. California has the most expensive that I have seen. The Average is about $ 75.00 a month.

I teach privately for $ 25.00 per session (usually one hour or a little more) and give a discount for groups such as a family that works out together.

Instructors from Studios I charge $ 50.00 per session.

Of course, if they are members of my organization then I have graduated and reduced rates.

:asian:

[Nate_Hoopes]

I looked at other schools around, the TKD school wanted $125 per month for 3 groups per week 1 hour each. considering what i can get out of my kenpo money i dont think its that bad; all the places around here are pretty expensive, theres a huge military base nearby so alot of people train in martial arts, goes back to the whole supply and demand thing, my school is usually relatively full, we interview everyone and not everyone gets in, I was lucky enough to sign up right when the lead instructor lost one of his students, he just got his 3rd dan, and actually taught most of the instructing black belts that also teach there, they are all fine instructors, they've filled in for a lesson or 2 from time to time, but my instructors extra years of experience definitely make a difference.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

With the right Instructor:) the amount of money is insignificant.
:asian:

[Cthulhu]

Eighteen...HUNDRED...dollars! Ye gods, man! We're renting a 3 bed/2 bath house for under $600/month. That's it...I'm not moving out of Florida.

Cthulhu

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
With the right Instructor the amount of money is insignificant.

Don't start with me...:rolleyes:

[Goldendragon7]

everyone starts with you........ LOL:rofl:

[GouRonin]

That's because I am the man.

[Goldendragon7]

But........ I am the ANT!

:rofl:

[WilliamTLear]

Gou... You're the Dog. Not the Man. LOL


Me paracticing reverse abdominal breathing -> :fart: <- Gou Ronin

[GouRonin]

Bow wow...

[girlychuks]

I study Villari's style of Shaolin Kempo (Pauses to let the groans and hisses subside...)
I pay $70 a month, got my gi free, get five lessons a week, hour each time.
This is actually cheaper than lot of dojos in the area for various arts... (which, incidentally, I am free to study at at any time, they encourage us to seek any type of instruction we please) Most studios around here are a "karate school" that teaches Tae Kwon Do, or disappear in a few months, or are only open one night a week.
As a working mom that has to hire sitters while I take my workout, I need considerably more time away from the kids than one hour a week...

[WilliamTLear]

Which school do you attend? I used to go to the LaCrescenta School.

:lookie:

Billy Lear

[Goldendragon7]

Man, I'm undercharging ........ Im gonna start a new rate immediately!

:asian:

[kenpo_cory]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goldendragon7
[B]Man, I'm undercharging ........ Im gonna start a new rate immediately!

Thats exacly what my insructor said after i told him the prices i saw on here. :soapbox:

[Nate_Hoopes]

Originally posted by KENPO_CORY
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goldendragon7
[B]Man, I'm undercharging ........ Im gonna start a new rate immediately!

Thats exacly what my insructor said after i told him the prices i saw on here. :soapbox:


So tell him that since you so generously pointed out the change and will be singlehandedly responsible for him making more money that he should keep you at your current rate, If i were a businessman thats what i would do, but i dont know how much the word business translates into owning/operating a studio.

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Nate_Hoopes



So tell him that since you so generously pointed out the change and will be singlehandedly responsible for him making more money that he should keep you at your current rate, If i were a businessman thats what i would do, but i dont know how much the word business translates into owning/operating a studio.

Well, i just signed another contract for a year, so at least for the next year ill still be paying the original 50 dollars a month. He's only going to raise it by 10 dollars a month which still isnt bad. But ill try you advice, thank you.

[Goldendragon7]

I was just teasing.....

:asian:

[AvPKenpo]

Man GD7 I hope you aren't starting a Nation Trend here. Us poor people soon won't be able to afford those coast rates.:sadsong:
Michael

[D.Cobb]

At our school we get 5 nights a week, 3 days a week, plus Saturday classes. I pay A$83.00 per month. Which is equal to about US$43.40 pm. Plus A$110.00 per year, which is US$57.15.

Actually the contract that I am on means that I don't have to pay the $110 dollars per year, that covers me for 3 years.
--Dave

[Goldendragon7]

Who is the Head Instructor of your studio?

:asian:

[tunetigress]

Well I am eternally grateful that my Kenpo school provides private lessons at a time of my convenience, or I likely never would have been able to keep it in my schedule in the first place. I feel free to wring as much value out of my approx. $80 Cdn per month expenditure as I have the time and/or energy to invest. There's an ample array of groups, classes and training sessions that I can choose to attend or not, according to my time and interest. My Kenpo is what I need it and want to be, for my own reasons, and I continue to find it a tremendous value in terms of personal benefit, for every paltry Canadian Dollar I have invested in it to date! Respectfully, _(_)_ Tune

[Rob_Broad]

When I was running a full time school I charged $55.00 a month plus G.S.T. ofcourse(the government always wants their share)

I had the philosphy that I would rather make $2.00 profit per person each month from 100 people that make $200.00 profit from one person. I could have easily jacked up my prices like the local Take One Dough school to $75.00 month but chose to offer better prices to my people.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Who is the Head Instructor of your studio?

:asian:

I'm not sure if this question was directed at me, but I'll answer it anyway.

Our cheif instructor is Master Frank Monea. He teaches Ryukyu Kempo, under the auspices of Dillman's Karate International. He is also affiliated to the Dragon Society International.

--Dave

[Goldendragon7]

Thanks!~
:asian:

[D.Cobb]

You're welcome.
Congratulations on your MT belt promotion.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Thank You for your kind words and thoughts.

:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Like so many thngs in the martial arts the cost of tutition is relative to what you feel it is worth. If you are thinking you are being over charged then you are. It is also relative to your region, if you live in an area where everything seems costly martial arts training (a luxury) will be expensive.

[Goldendragon7]

As my wise ole Father use to tell me........... It's only worth what they are willing to pay. One will pay a kings ransom ........ another wouldn't study if it were free.

Personally, I feel the same way as an instructor. If you don't feel that I'm worth the information I have .......... then the knowledge that I have is to valuable to give to you.

:asian:

[GouRonin]

What it is worth is determined by the one who seeks it.

[Goldendragon7]

But the one who holds the knowledge that is sought after decides "What" to release to "Who" and at what "Investment".

:asian:

[GouRonin]

...you cannot convince others the lead in your hand is gold by holding more tightly.

Personally, I think that is a bad road to start following. Mr. Parker did a lot to "de-mystify" the martial arts. Sadly, I think many Kenpoists today are reverting to, "I hold the secrets." Again, a reason why I am looking more into Systema, because there are no martial secrets, just hard work.

[Kirk]

A lot of people gave a "shout out" to their own instructors here.
I personally have a ton of respect and liking for my instructor,
who doesn't have a famous foothold in Kenpo. I'd be willing to
bet that you could mention his name to Huk, Jeff Speakman,
Frank Trejo, etc (also Pat Burleson .. he awarded him his TKD
black belt before he'd ever heard of kenpo), and they would
say they know him, but to many kenpoists here, none of you
would. I feel fortunate to study under him. But isn't that how
all of you feel? Do any of you not have respect for your teacher?
I couldn't imagine someone going, "He's an *******, but he
teaches really well".

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by GouRonin

...you cannot convince others the lead in your hand is gold by holding more tightly.

Personally, I think that is a bad road to start following. Mr. Parker did a lot to "de-mystify" the martial arts. Sadly, I think many Kenpoists today are reverting to, "I hold the secrets." Again, a reason why I am looking more into Systema, because there are no martial secrets, just hard work.

Well you never heard me say "I hold the secrets"! There arn't any ........ and like you said just lots of hard work.

I was only talking about worth.

:asian:

[Klondike93]

:)

Who is your instructor Kirk?

Mine is guy named Brad Scornavacco, and I doubt anybody here has ever heard of him. His instructor is Mr. Lee Wedlake. He started with him in Chicago and has been with him the whole time. Now he also mixes in Systema classes in addition to the Kenpo. My very first Kenpo instructor is no longer in Kenpo, he spends a lot of time as a cop and gave it up.

That's my kenpo history.

:asian:

Chuck

[GouRonin]

Kewl isn't it? Have you been to a Vlad or Mikhail seminar yet?

[Goldendragon7]

Someday soon.:asian:

[Klondike93]

:(

Not yet, but he has done a seminar at the school in the past.
When he's there again I'll go. :cool:

:asian:

Chuck

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Kewl isn't it? Have you been to a Vlad or Mikhail seminar yet?

Let me know the next time there will be one of theose semionars in our area, I would like to attend.

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

With the right Instructor:) the amount of money is insignificant.
:asian:

Amen! But then, I don't charge for lessons, at all. Do them at my house, pick my students, and really enjoy what I'm doing.
:rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

can do that! IBM has been good to you. Us other poor kenpoits need survival change.

:sadsong:
:boing1:

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

can do that! IBM has been good to you. Us other poor kenpoits need survival change.

:sadsong:
:boing1:

Dennis ... Be nice. I'd be doing it that way anyway. And IBM didn't give me anything that I didn't earn. :lol:

I gave up the commercial route a long time back. Just not for me. I like teaching the way I want to, and what I want to per student. That is, often, difficult to do when you have a commercial school. I don't have any prob with that or charging. Just letting the other side of the coin be heard from.

Simple choice. I could live in a city large enough to support a school and charge for it, or I can live out on Farmer Mountain, in the country, where the student base is very slim, and where I love to live, and pick and choose my students.

It may be my philosophical shortcoming, but for me, and me only, I have always had a hard time seeing the arts as a way of making a living, as compared to simply a way of living. Then I have had the old Shaolin background training. You must remember I used to watch the show on TV all the time, and still go to available re-runs. :asian: :rofl: :rofl: :asian:

Dan

[Goldendragon7]

You or anyone else doing it that way (your way ~ no fee - low fee), It's just that everyone is not that fortunate to be able to do what you are able to do. Some (not you) feel that the world owes them the knowledge and that they shouldn't have to pay for it.

My knowledge is all I have to sell (and I earned it all too by the way, in one way or another) so for some people to "expect" someone - anyone, to give away what they have or else be classified as a stingy non caring or sharing person is in my humble opinion unfair.

I'm all for breaking down the misinformation lines and developing a stronger "Kenpo Brotherhood" between all Kenpo students, so count me in.

:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

I would love to see a Kenpo Senior Council, especially if the egos were locked in a box. I know my opinion doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things, but the idea of a group taking the reigns to guide us would be very appealing to me. To many of the practioners out there I am a pup with only 20 yrs of training, to others I am almost a fossil, that is why I think it would be great to see a group of these Kenpo seniors stand up and do what is best for the art not their pocketbooks and egos.

I can now see the idea of ever promoting again vanishing with this comment but that is not really why I train anyways. I think if some people would remember why they first started taking lessons and allowed themselves to feel the joy and love they had for the art when they first started we all would be a lot better off.

[Goldendragon7]

I think you will see something as you say real soon....:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

I can't wait. I would love for us all to get our act together and strive forward.

[Goldendragon7]

yes, I agree it would be nice.:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Rob Broad
to others I am almost a fossil


No comment!! :rofl: :rofl:


Question:

What's IBM? In the case used on this thread.

[Goldendragon7]

Dan Farmer in Wright City MO works for IBM - International Business Machines.

:)

[Kirk]

ROFL! Okay! I thought it was something Kenpo related!
:drink2tha

[Goldendragon7]

It keeps Uncle Dan in change so as to persue his hobbies...... Kenpo, Corvettes, "Curvettes" (beautiful women - although on paper only)-(JoAnn would shave his testicles if they were real.... well ......a...... a..... a..... actually on second thought...... probably she would call Lorena Bobbit and get some consultation as to what to do there) LOL... look for cool and new improved website from the Farm-man soon. He is having a professional design one for him. Whooo Hoooo

:cool:

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Klondike93

$99 a month for 2 classes a week or $109 + a enrollment fee (I don't know what it is though) for the black belt club program.
The black belt club has unlimited classes and discounts on seminars and things like that.
After checking around that's about average for here in Colorado.


:asian:

Klondike93,

Who do you sudy with?

[Klondike93]

My kenpo instructor is Brad Scornavacco. He's a 3rd degree under Lee Wedlake and he also teaches Systema The Russian Martial Art as taught by Vladimir Vasiliev. The school is about 30 miles away from me, but there are no American Kenpo schools in denver at all. I hope to change that some day.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

That is sad! Denver is sooooooo in need a several good Kenpo studios!!

lol
:asian:

I'm gonna work on this one........ I'll be that much closer to Farmer and still above Castillo! :rofl:

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Klondike93

My kenpo instructor is Brad Scornavacco. He's a 3rd degree under Lee Wedlake and he also teaches Systema The Russian Martial Art as taught by Vladimir Vasiliev. The school is about 30 miles away from me, but there are no American Kenpo schools in denver at all. I hope to change that some day.

:asian:

I met Brad back in "94" when I began to train with Mr. Wedlake. He is a great guy (Brad). He is very knowledgeable and compitent. Savor your training. Best of luck.:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

JoAnn would shave his testicles if they were real



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

That is sad! Denver is sooooooo in need a several good Kenpo studios!!

lol
:asian:

I'm gonna work on this one........ I'll be that much closer to Farmer and still above Castillo! :rofl:



I will catch you, Lord Kenpoder, and then it will be all over for you!!:soapbox:

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

That is sad! Denver is sooooooo in need a several good Kenpo studios!!

lol
:asian:

I'm gonna work on this one........ I'll be that much closer to Farmer and still above Castillo! :rofl:

:D :D :D :D I hope so!!

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Keep an eye out for a good location.
:asian:

[Klondike93]

I wouldn't know one if it jumped up and bit me on the butt :rofl:

Do you have any guidelines for picking out a good location?

:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Klondike93

I wouldn't know one if it jumped up and bit me on the butt :rofl:

Do you have any guidelines for picking out a good location?

:asian:

Look for the Golden Arches, Mc Donalds pays millions every year doing market research for locations, let them do the work for you.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



Look for the Golden Arches, Mc Donalds pays millions every year doing market research for locations, let them do the work for you.

Fantastic Idea!

[Blindside]

You are of course assuming that what a McDonalds looks for is the same thing that a karate studio needs. I don't really think I want to place my studio on a freeway offramp.

Sorta brings a new meaning to the word "McDojo."
:D

Lamont

PS It is true that McDonalds does have the best socio-economic database in the world.

[Goldendragon7]

that's not entirely true..... One of my students back in Virginia just moved his studio and was 2 doors down from McDonalds. While it is a good idea to be close to a local icon..... paying 6K a month was just too much of a nut to crack. You have to have a minimun of 150 paying students at all times to be in the ball game....... Well 5 years and what amounts to a brand new Mercades down the tubes it didn't look so great. There is a little bit more than site.

:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

You guys are correct, there is more than just being near the Golden Arches to ensure success. I was told you should be able to see a Mc Donalds from your location but should never be in its shadow. What this means is the farther you are form the
Mc Donalds the cheaper the rent will be, a few blocks away is a great location. You also have to look at allowable signage, the lease options in the area, the saturation of martial arts school in the market, and how well the martial arts are percieved in the area. That is the short list if you want more info contact me directly.

[Goldendragon7]

LOL

:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

I enjoy helping people especially if they will help stomp out the evil Mc Dojo.

[Klondike93]

:biggun: :jediduel: :sniper: :rockets:

Death to McDojos!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More kenpo schools!!

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Kenpo's war on Martial Art Terrorism...... McDojo warzzzzz!


:rofl:

[Chronuss]

the dojo I attend is $15 a week, $50 reg. fee, pay weekly, five nights a week, hour each night. around here, that's pretty cheap and it keeps the lights on in the dojo. and there's a McDonald's down the road and that sure as hell doesn't bring in any business! all the people around here are lazy! they wish not to do anything that requires breaking a sweat, especially any of my friends that I've tried to conived...er..politely ask to try it out.

but that's it for fees, we had to buy sparring gear and a gi, but...that's kind of understood to participate in a dojo...er...at least I think it would be.

[Seig]

I owuld have thought so too, but you would be surorised at how many people are shocked that they need safety equipment for Karate*Gasp*:shrug:

[Goldendragon7]

It's all a matter of conditioning and salesmanship, you don't join the rodeo unless you have a horse.

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig

I owuld have thought so too, but you would be surorised at how many people are shocked that they need safety equipment for Karate*Gasp*:shrug:

Even more so. Sometimes I think I live in a Third World Country. Many people don't know what Kenpo is, and have never heard of SGM Parker. A sad commenatry for our country.:confused:

[Goldendragon7]

you should find a better country then Texas!

:rofl:

[Seig]

we were trying to give it back to Mexico, but they didn't want it either.:rofl:

[Stick Dummy]

Hey Now!


Don't mess with Texas!:D

Too many other states like MD, NJ, NY, CA would be better of gone, ooops they already are ........ heh-heh


You know theres a similarity between one student I've RECENTLY seen safley bundled up head to toe with gear and an armadillo.


ugh oh gotta run F-A-S-T!

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Stick Dummy

Hey Now!


Don't mess with Texas!:D

Too many other states like MD, NJ, NY, CA would be better of gone, ooops they already are ........ heh-heh


You know theres a similarity between one student I've RECENTLY seen safley bundled up head to toe with gear and an armadillo.


ugh oh gotta run F-A-S-T!

Armadillo.. I want one~!!
Hey I may bundle up head to toe.. I even have a crash test Helmet.. I reserve that for sparring strangers and the students at the college with no control... Better safe than stupid I say~!

[Stick Dummy]

B-U-S-T-E-D!!!!!!!!!

Stick Dummy runs for the door VERY QUICKLY!

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Stick Dummy

B-U-S-T-E-D!!!!!!!!!

Stick Dummy runs for the door VERY QUICKLY!


*Chortles.. *biting tongue.. I KNEW IT~!!! *C'mere you .. I'm gonna get you and your pretty sticks~!!!!!

*scampering pretty damn spryly for an ole geezerette~!!!!!!

[Goldendragon7]

the pretty sticks for me.....

:rofl:

:asian:

[TLH3rdDan]

what????? mexico doesnt want texas back???? then why are they invading????

[Nightingale]

Out of curiosity, how many of you sell equipment out of the dojo, and how many send students to supply stores?

my instructor has a pile of equipment, mostly donated stuff kids have grown out of, that he lets people use when they start sparring. That way, they can find out if sparring is something they want to be doing before spending lots of cash on equipment.

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

the pretty sticks for me.....

:rofl:

:asian:

ya gotta deal Dennis.. Hahahaa.. Come Monday.. when Pete brings his tub o' mud to the studio.. I am having some pretty wicked thoughts right now.. ~!!!

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

the pretty sticks for me.....

:rofl:

:asian:
You'll love them, I'll let you play wiht them but they're mine.

[Seig]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

Out of curiosity, how many of you sell equipment out of the dojo, and how many send students to supply stores?

my instructor has a pile of equipment, mostly donated stuff kids have grown out of, that he lets people use when they start sparring. That way, they can find out if sparring is something they want to be doing before spending lots of cash on equipment.
I sell equipment, I do not have a large inventory. When someone wants something, they place an order, pre-pay and I USUALLY have it in 48 hours for them.

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

the pretty sticks for me.....

:rofl:

:asian:
You already have a pair of pretty sticks. Nice and solid and very dark, so they won't see them coming.

[Goldendragon7]

Yes, this is true....... hard to see black at night......
:asian:

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Yes, this is true....... hard to see black at night......
:asian:
Hmmmmmmmmmm.....Kenpo meets IR Night vision.........

[kenpo3631]

These are the only thing you and the potential student have in common.

They don't care about your health and it doesn't rain in your studio.

I have found people ask for price simply because they don't know what to ask. Most don't even know what kenpo is...they just know it is some for of karate.

Price is what you "think" you are worth. If you feel you rate $85 per month, well sure go ahead and charge it, but you better darn well provide the most superior service, above all else or you'll find yourself in the unemployment line.:asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

Do Bosnian women have mustaches?

For the most part, yes!

But these women can be useful to know as they can kick start jumbo jets, and powerlift tractors.:D


--Dave

[Goldendragon7]

For the past 20 years seems to have become stable for the industry...... monthly fees ranging from $ 50.00 to $100.00 is common....... with $ about $85.00 being average. That's a long time to remain constant in a specific range.

Privates seem to be from $15.00 to $100.00 per hour with $30.00 to $50.00 being common place.

Have we bottomed out in our industry....?

:asian:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Have we bottomed out in our industry....?

As I am fond of saying. People should be careful not "To Kill The Golden Goose."

I think it is a good thing because it forces people to adjust their prices.

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by D.Cobb



For the most part, yes!

But these women can be useful to know as they can kick start jumbo jets, and powerlift tractors.:D


--Dave

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ....Excellent!

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

For the past 20 years seems to have become stable for the industry...... monthly fees ranging from $ 50.00 to $100.00 is common....... with $ about $85.00 being average. That's a long time to remain constant in a specific range.

Privates seem to be from $15.00 to $100.00 per hour with $30.00 to $50.00 being common place.

Have we bottomed out in our industry....?

:asian:

my instructor charges $50 for a private lesson with a black belt, and $35 for a private lesson with a brown belt.

[Seig]

Originally posted by nightingale8472



my instructor charges $50 for a private lesson with a black belt, and $35 for a private lesson with a brown belt.
Maybe I'm not doing things correctly, but I tend to charge more to people that have not been with me as long instead of the people that have been with me for years....Just my opinion.

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by GouRonin



As I am fond of saying. People should be careful not "To Kill The Golden Goose."

I think it is a good thing because it forces people to adjust their prices.

I don't want to get too nosey Gou, but how expensive is Vlad's school and what all is included in that?

:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by RCastillo



Even more so. Sometimes I think I live in a Third World Country. Many people don't know what Kenpo is, and have never heard of SGM Parker. A sad commenatry for our country.:confused:

Not really, American Kenpo isn't really very old as a system in the grand scheme of things. It's your job to spread the word if it's that important to you. If your saying it well enough (verbally and physically) people will listen....right?

jb:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by GouRonin

...you cannot convince others the lead in your hand is gold by holding more tightly.

Personally, I think that is a bad road to start following. Mr. Parker did a lot to "de-mystify" the martial arts. Sadly, I think many Kenpoists today are reverting to, "I hold the secrets." Again, a reason why I am looking more into Systema, because there are no martial secrets, just hard work.

bump...

Good comments Doug,

The only thing I would add is that is unfortunately (or fortunately) our Kenpo instructors aren't business experts so they don't apply business principles to the rates. They place themselves in positions (large expensive buildings) to have to charge an arm and a leg. Or just say, "well I'm worth $XXX and that is what I'm going to charge" and run off good potential students. One idea in business is that big money isn't the only kind of money to be made. Little money is good too if enough is made. Microsoft makes millions charging $300 per program. Well Intuit makes millions selling TurboTax for $20 per program...

This lack of business experience along with the connection to the "mystical" ways that do still exist as an under tone to the martial arts prevents this from being changed any time soon.

I say build a following at a realistic and reasonable rate then expand from there.....Otherwise, your really good and don't have anyone to train....And just how good is an instructor without students? Who knows? There's no continuing threat to say hey that guy was trained by so and so. See what he/she can develop you into....

Just my thoughts on a thread that lost steam and focus...

jb:asian:

[Seig]

JB,
Good answer. Now I'll explain why I charge what I do. When I opened my school, I only had 9 students. I had to figureout how I could make enough money to pay the rent, the electric and my gas back and forth. I figured out how much ot would gross each month and charged the original students correspondingly. I also took into account what would happen if I ever lost students, so a small buffer was built in. Now as business ebbs and flows, some months I make money and some I break even.

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Seig

JB,
Good answer. Now I'll explain why I charge what I do. When I opened my school, I only had 9 students. I had to figureout how I could make enough money to pay the rent, the electric and my gas back and forth. I figured out how much ot would gross each month and charged the original students correspondingly. I also took into account what would happen if I ever lost students, so a small buffer was built in. Now as business ebbs and flows, some months I make money and some I break even.

Seig,

I respect any person that takes the plung and opens a full blown school. I also respect those that train of the garage and make shift dojos. In both cases you commit a lot of time and energy (of course, the believed value of this is up to the instructor (service provider) and the student (consumer) and these beliefs may not jive). I've been in both environments. I wonder what American Kenpo would be like if people didn't have to worry so much about keeping students to pay the bills? Or gouging students to pay the bills, and this certainly isn't in reference to you because I don't know you or your fees and I'm in Texas and will probably never study under you (although from the sparring picts I wouldn't mind coming over to play).

The mentality is certainly different when you depend on the money for livelihood, one is keep it real, the other is keep the lights on...this of course is a generalization and probably not fair...but I would argue that money (no not money...GREED) has ruined what martial arts and Kenpo in particular could be.

jb:asian:

Here are a few questions? Did you get a moderately sized location initially or did you go for the gusto? The picts on your site look like a rec center. Was that the extent of your business plan? Did you do projections for future and lay out plans on how they would be achieved? Did you stick to that schedule? At what point did you consider yourself a "success"? Did you have benchmarks to reach? Were they reached? Did you find that your training methods change when you opened the school? (that's a loaded question of course they did) Do you have individual consultations with your students to discuss their progress and what their personal goals are within the arts?

[Seig]

Originally posted by jbkenpo


Here are a few questions? Did you get a moderately sized location initially or did you go for the gusto? The picts on your site look like a rec center.
I started teaching at the local college until I built a dedicated following large enough to support my school. Once I had them, I researched a location. I wanted something close to the college and what I started with and still have is about 1000 SQ feet.

Was that the extent of your business plan? Did you do projections for future and lay out plans on how they would be achieved?
Honestly, I just explained my Initial Business Plan. I understand that most businesses do NOT make a killing their first year or two. I was told by several successful business owners not to plan on making any real money the first two years.

Did you stick to that schedule?
This business seems to be unpredicatble enough that I do not have a set schedule. I make small goals and try to acheive them, some I do, some I do not. At one point I had trippled my enrollment. But now, due to attrition and summer vacations, I am down to double my initial enrollment. But I ma working on building it back up. I have a little more money now to make improvements and advertise.

At what point did you consider yourself a "success"?
I considered the business a success when I reached my first anniversary with the rent still being made and the lights still on.

Did you have benchmarks to reach?
I did, but I found I had to redefine them. I was basing my benchmarks in terms of students enrolled. Now I make them based on bill spaid and improvements made.

Were they reached?
Some were, others were not.

Did you find that your training methods change when you opened the school? (that's a loaded question of course they did)
Yes, several times now.

Do you have individual consultations with your students to discuss their progress and what their personal goals are within the arts?
All the time. I have to know what they expect, how they feel, etc, the reverse is also true.

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig


All the time. I have to know what they expect, how they feel, etc, the reverse is also true.

Organized crime persons need NO BUSINESS PLAN. They ask politely, only once. After that, good luck, cause you'll need it!:wah:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Klondike93
I don't want to get too nosey Gou, but how expensive is Vlad's school and what all is included in that?

Really he doesn't charge what he is easily worth. Thank god his wife keeps him in line or he'd go under.

I can only tell you what he charges me to work there and for materials and such and I will not do that in an open forum. Should you want to we can talk about this in private and keep it between us.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
The only thing I would add is that is unfortunately (or fortunately) our Kenpo instructors aren't business experts so they don't apply business principles to the rates. They place themselves in positions (large expensive buildings) to have to charge an arm and a leg. Or just say, "well I'm worth $XXX and that is what I'm going to charge" and run off good potential students. One idea in business is that big money isn't the only kind of money to be made. Little money is good too if enough is made. Microsoft makes millions charging $300 per program. Well Intuit makes millions selling TurboTax for $20 per program...

This lack of business experience along with the connection to the "mystical" ways that do still exist as an under tone to the martial arts prevents this from being changed any time soon.

And just how good is an instructor without students?

The mentality is certainly different when you depend on the money for livelihood, one is keep it real, the other is keep the lights on...this of course is a generalization and probably not fair...but I would argue that money (no not money...GREED) has ruined what martial arts and Kenpo in particular could be.


Everyone should read this post. Damn it. It's brilliant. JB, once the Kenpo community reads this you know they are going to want to kick you out of course. Heh. Good work!

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by GouRonin



Everyone should read this post. Damn it. It's brilliant. JB, once the Kenpo community reads this you know they are going to want to kick you out of course. Heh. Good work!

Hey I can only do what I can do....any room for one more scare crow in Systema class? Actually, Russia is too cold. I'll probably look toward the Philippines or Indonesia...the smell of burnt rattan is beginning to have some appeal.

jb:asian:

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by GouRonin



Really he doesn't charge what he is easily worth. Thank god his wife keeps him in line or he'd go under.

I can only tell you what he charges me to work there and for materials and such and I will not do that in an open forum. Should you want to we can talk about this in private and keep it between us.

That's cool, I respect that, I don't need to be that nosey.

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



Not really, American Kenpo isn't really very old as a system in the grand scheme of things. It's your job to spread the word if it's that important to you. If your saying it well enough (verbally and physically) people will listen....right?

jb:asian:

True, it isn't very old when it's all said and done.

As I try to spread it, I find that people are as ignorant as ever before. They care not to research, and learn, they want it all to be given to them. As an educator, that just riles me up.

They still believe only what they see on the tube, or at the movies. When they see what's really involved, the true believer really thins out. They don't want work, and discipline, just the "Hollywood" version. Many just do not want to develop themselves. Very sad indeed

[rmcrobertson]

Having just dipped in on this thread, and being aware enough of my own limitations not to even dream of ever opening my own studio, I can't comment on cost.

What I can do is to agree that there are no secrets: it's the same thing I tell my students in English, and the thing they hate to hear. There are no shortcuts. I'm not holding something mysterious, some quick fix, some magic potion, back from them. To learn to write well, you sit it a chair, you write and rewrite, you read a lot, you get somebody who has half a clue about what to look for in writing, you develop what the Germans called, "sitzfleisch." Your butt gets big, you learn to write. No way around it.

Hopefully, kenpo would in physical terms mean the opposite of the big tailfeathers. However, I quite agree that when all else fails, go work out. Short of working out, nothing will help.

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by RCastillo



True, it isn't very old when it's all said and done.

As I try to spread it, I find that people are as ignorant as ever before. They care not to research, and learn, they want it all to be given to them. As an educator, that just riles me up.

They still believe only what they see on the tube, or at the movies. When they see what's really involved, the true believer really thins out. They don't want work, and discipline, just the "Hollywood" version. Many just do not want to develop themselves. Very sad indeed

Dude,

Your in Corpus! It's the land of the Salina museum and where Whataburger was founded. There's hardly any Kenpo in Houston what do you expect near the border.

Nothings wrong with a person's ignorance, my thought would be that that should excite you. If they know everything already why come to you? Here is a blank slate that you (an educator) have an opportunity to make an impression on. But you gotta be able to bring it. I spoke with Gary and he said you have a real sweet set up. I've got a few ideas on how you might build you stuff up. If you interested email me and I'll make some strategic suggestions.

jb:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Bruce "Ricardo" Lopez

start working those chucks and sticks......

:rofl:

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Bruce "Ricardo" Lopez

start working those chucks and sticks......

:rofl:
Nah, he's too old. Start wearing baggy clothes, driving old cars, use a fake japanese accent, and spout old proverbs. "Wax on, wax, off..."

[Stick Dummy]

Cheech Marin as Mr. Miyagi?????????


Sttttttttttttttop Mikey My ribs hurt!!!

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Bruce "Ricardo" Lopez

start working those chucks and sticks......

:rofl:

Great, we can start on the sequal, "Enter The Dragon II.":samurai:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig


Nah, he's too old. Start wearing baggy clothes, driving old cars, use a fake japanese accent, and spout old proverbs. "Wax on, wax, off..."

Too late, I 'm already acting like that now.:wink:

[kenpo3631]

Well speaking from experience...

I opened my first studio in 1992. I charged $4 per lesson or $45 per month. Needless to say I was drastically under priced, yet I had people haggle with me about the cost of lessons! I bumped it up to $55 then a year later to $65 dollars per month.

I closed my studio in 1998 for family reasons and currently teach privately.

About a year after I closed I walked into a Tae Kwon Do dojang. Just out of curiosity I went in to ask for prices, to see what people are charging. Well to my surprise a mom of 3 of my old students was behind the desk! This was one of the people that had hagled over the $45 dollars per month that I used to charge!

Her kids were now going there. She explained to me the pricing.
$85 per month, plus $50 for belt testing (mandatory testing by the way). That's over a $1000 per year, per child plus testing. The family plan was 1/2 for each additional family member. You do the math...

What's my point? The tuition you recieve is proportional to the value you place on your program. If you can show someone that the value of your program is worth $85, then people will pay it! Too many times instructors, charge way too little for the programs they provide and in turn short change themselves. I by all means am NOT saying you should charge $1000 per month just because you think it is worth that much, but I AM saying look at what you are offering in comparision to those around you and price accordingly. If Joe Shmoe up the street charges $55 per month and you know your program is worth more, then by all means you should be able to charge $65 and have no quams about it.

:asian:

[Seig]

I'm not sure if any one made this point or not and I am too lazy to go back through the posts to find out. Something you have to take into consideration is the demographics of the area you are in. What are people willing to pay and what can they afford to pay long term? I feel that what I teach is worth more than I charge, but I have to remember that there are other good instructors in the area as well. I also do not want to charge so much that the average person making 7.25 an hour cannot afford to come if he wants to. Watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Listen to you........!!

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Listen to you........!!

:asian:

I do, um....I did, and there's still a bunch of ignorant tightwads around here. The problem is, I'm not Oriental (with all due respect)I live in area where there is MONEY! I figure to do better in the college program I will work in shortly. :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Missar. "Kim" Castillo........

It's so nice to see you ........ and your sranted eyes!

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Missar. "Kim" Castillo........

It's so nice to see you ........ and your sranted eyes!

:asian:

Domo Arigato, Goldendragon san.:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig

I'm not sure if any one made this point or not and I am too lazy to go back through the posts to find out. Something you have to take into consideration is the demographics of the area you are in. What are people willing to pay and what can they afford to pay long term? I feel that what I teach is worth more than I charge, but I have to remember that there are other good instructors in the area as well. I also do not want to charge so much that the average person making 7.25 an hour cannot afford to come if he wants to. Watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.:asian:

Said like a true "Mafioso! Maybe I can come to work for you, Don "Corleone" Seig. Surely, you could use a bodyguard?:samurai: