improper touching in the Dojo [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

rachel

08-14-2003, 05:22 PM

There is a man in our class who when paired up with my friend or myself, maybe other women too, I haven't asked them yet , always ends up punching our breasts. When he is supposed to throw punches at us and we have to block them he always punches too high or low and manages to punch our breasts. My friend thinks he does it on purpose. I think he may on occasion but that he might have a depth perception problem.I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Any way I talked to our teacher and he said it's not really his place to say anything to this man and we should tell him ourselves. I prefer not to work with this individual because of this. I can tell this person but the teacher said in a real fight we could be touched on our breasts and to deal with it. Wrong answer? I'm kinda pissed with my teachers response to this. If someone is trying to cop free feels in the Dojo it's unacceptable. And we can block it's just that he always manages to get a few touches in and we are not happy. What should we do?

Bob Hubbard

08-14-2003, 05:33 PM

An occational shot, yeah, suck it up. A constant thing? Thats different.

You did the right thing by going to your instructor. Sadly, hes not responsive to you. INHO, if the situation makes you that uncomfortable, you have few options.

1- Leave. And let him know why you left. While he is right on the 'in the street' bit, you aren't training in the street.

2- Next time the guy does it, politely request that he connect elsewhere. If it happens again, its def. on purpose.

3- Refuse to work with him. Tell your instructor you are not comfortable with that individual and will not work with him again. You have that right.

4- (my favorite) get a sports bra, and place several thumbtacks (facing outward) in strategic places. When my grabby connects, his yelp of pain will announce things for you.

5- When doing techniques that aim for his groin, 'accidentally' connect. Hey...it happens in the street right? :)

A.R.K.

08-14-2003, 05:49 PM

5- When doing techniques that aim for his groin, 'accidentally' connect. Hey...it happens in the street right?

Exactly right :rofl: Maybe you should develop a momentary, selective depth perception problem on a kick! Should only take once to send home the message.

And it IS your instuctor's place to mention this! He's coping out and passing the buck. An instructor runs the class, this means he RUNS the class. If there is a problem he should rush to find a resolution.

Sorry this is happening to you Rachel :mad: Your right, it is unacceptable.

John Bishop

08-14-2003, 05:49 PM

First off it is ALWAYS the instructors place to set and enforce the rules of conduct in his school.
And NO, women should not have to put up with inappropriate touching in training, just because it could happen in a "real fight". Maybe you should tell this individual to take off his cup because he wont have it in a "real fight".
Accidental hard contact and inappropriate touching will happen, but it should only be a rare occassion.
Your instructor needs to take responsibility for the conduct of his students. Or, maybe you need another instructor.

rachel

08-14-2003, 06:23 PM

Thank you, everyone.

Ender

08-14-2003, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

4- (my favorite) get a sports bra, and place several thumbtacks (facing outward) in strategic places. When my grabby connects, his yelp of pain will announce things for you.

5- When doing techniques that aim for his groin, 'accidentally' connect. Hey...it happens in the street right? :)

*LOL...gotta love it...good answer.

MartialArtsGuy

08-14-2003, 06:27 PM

I have to agree with the others, reading your post made me mad. I cant believe your instructor said that. If a female student at my school had the same problem and the instructor said that to her, Id leave with her.

In my humble opinion this has now escalated past the original problem. What your teacher said is an indication of what I would consider problems with his character. It seems that he values money over the well being of his students.

Even if you find out that this mans "breast punching" is just an accident, your still left with having to make a decision regarding your teachers actions.

lonekimono

08-14-2003, 06:33 PM

Wll there is a good tecq you could use and it can fall under the "what if" squeezing the peach, or thrushing prong
but when you do it,do it then the person will know,and he will stop.
"it's not who's right it's who's left"

so go ahead hit him with right and then hit him with the left:D :asian: and please keep me posted;)

Eggman

08-14-2003, 06:43 PM

if you are training withthis person there should be no problem talking to him about this issue. We have an equal ammount of women and men in our adult class and if i happen to touch a boob, a shot to the kids will surely follow. Payback is a *****!!!

tshadowchaser

08-14-2003, 07:03 PM

I'll agree with what the others have said if he is grabing or just touching.
If he is throwing a controlled punch and you do not block that is your problem. Would you prefer he hit you in the face if you miss the block? The talk seems to say it was touching yet you said trowing a punch.
Yes, talk to him. your instructor should have said something or at least be watching to see if this a deliberate. Your instructor is in the wrong if the actions are intended to get a free touch .
Talk to the other ladys if enough of you are haveing the same problem go to the instructor in mass and demand a solution or you all walk.

tshadowchaser

08-14-2003, 07:11 PM

Let me clarify befor anyone gets the wrong idea. I do not condone improper touching in class. If I find out a student is doing so he/she first ges the crap kicked out of him then is is told to leave permenately.
I think any student is going to get touched once in a while. It happens. Hell we throw at least 30 or 40 groin shots a night in class. punches to the chest , who counts, we block or get hit.
Grabbing a breast when that is not the tech. Thats a no no and see the first paragraph.

Dan Anderson

08-14-2003, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by rachel
1. There is a man in our class who when paired up with my friend or myself, maybe other women too, I haven't asked them yet , always ends up punching our breasts. When he is supposed to throw punches at us and we have to block them he always punches too high or low and manages to punch our breasts.
2. My friend thinks he does it on purpose. I think he may on occasion but that he might have a depth perception problem.I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.
3. Any way I talked to our teacher and he said it's not really his place to say anything to this man and we should tell him ourselves.
4. I prefer not to work with this individual because of this. I can tell this person but the teacher said in a real fight we could be touched on our breasts and to deal with it. Wrong answer?
5. I'm kinda pissed with my teachers response to this. If someone is trying to cop free feels in the Dojo it's unacceptable. And we can block it's just that he always manages to get a few touches in and we are not happy. What should we do?

Hi Rachel,
1. That's not good.
2. That many times, I'd say so.
3. It is totally his place. Does he want a lawsuit for sexual harrassment because "it's not his place"?
4. Don't work with this person.
5. Understandable. If the teacher won't enforce this, get another teacher.
It's one thing when you arre doing situational defenses and in a contact situation like martial arts, you are going to get touched - just as a guy is going to get the occasional nut grab. It's part of the game. But an over and over scene like that is deliberate and should not be countenanced.

Yorus,
Dan Anderson

Jay Bell

08-14-2003, 10:22 PM

Rachel,

My mind is reaching out and grabbing ideas...so bear with me on this. I'm not convinced that "accidental" is the appropriate idea here. Even if he isn't consciously aiming for "them"...some part of him is focusing on "them" or his body wouldn't create a target out of "them". Follow me? Just a wondering thought...

Like many people have said, if the instructor will not help you in this, I would leave and never look back. If the instructor was being groped by said guy, I'm sure he would definately have a problem with what was happening. It's not him...he could care less. Very bad.

I would say that speaking to the guy about it is important. #1 -- it'll get it off of your chest (laugh it up wiseguys :D)...which is extremely important, especially when you and other females feel a violation has occured. #2 -- You may bring him some awareness of something that hasn't consciously "clicked" in his head. How is he to know (if this is the case) that he's doing something wrong if he's oblivious that it's causing an issue?

Good luck with it...let us know how things turn out

-Jay

rachel

08-14-2003, 11:10 PM

Thanks for your input,everyone. I just got back from class and this student was not there tonight nor my usual instructor. When this person comes back and I have to work with him I will make sure he knows that he'd better not hit me again. The point is once or twice okay it happens. More than that there's something wrong.My teacher is very good.Don't get me wrong but I expected more out of him than the answer I got and it ticked me off. I don't want to leave my school. Everyone gets along well. It's like a family. We'll see what happens next class.

rmcrobertson

08-15-2003, 01:11 AM

rachel:

I generally agree with what's been written; just wanted to mention a coupla things briefly.

1) What rank is the guy? If he's a white belt, maybe cut him some slack...but at some point, you are supposed to learn control...

2) Maybe you could dodge around his resistances by insisting that he work the techniques to the proper targets.

3) Don't know 'im, but your insturctor might be saying that you need to learn how to deal with this sort of crap...after all, as the woman who first taught me used to say," Well, who's going to attack you on the street? Somebody nice?"

4) Where's he hitting guys?

5) Other things being equal, repay in kind. Smack the groin, and do it in a way that connects what he's doing wrong to a sharp, tingly sensation Down There...conditioned response, don't ya know.

6) Tell him directly and clearly what the problem is. It'll be difficult, but maybe you can consider it an aspect of your training...maybe he's as stressed and confused as you are, and maybe you should just use him as a cheap dummy...

7) But as was noted by others--when all else fails, no no no, just hit him.

Seig

08-15-2003, 02:32 AM

Rachel,
Tess and I can definately understand your situation. Half my students are women, and most of them are well endowed. Does "accidental contact" occur? You betcha it does. In most instances, we ignore it. Sometimes we joke about it. Tonight in sparring class, Tess blasted Jennifer in a breast. Jennifer's response was, "How do you expect me to feed my children?" It was hysterical. Unfortunately, once in a while we have an adolescent that has not learned to control his anatomy, this has caused problems. After one such complaint, I made sure that he never wanted to be in class without a cup again, and two years later he remembers the lesson. When one intentionally strikes or grabs the breast of a female member, it is absolutely the place of the instructor/head instructor/owner to step in and put a stop to it. This is not something a female should have to endure. The personal issues aside, it can cause medical issues, issues that can be avoided. One thing you may want to consider is a chest protector, which is good for women to wear in heavy contact or sparring situations. Does this in anyway alleviate the issue of improper touching? No. If "speaking" to the individual by a person of authority or rank does not resolve the issue, then I strongly endorse any of the actions suggested by the others here. At our school, the "Bruise Brothers" (Stick Dummy and myself) have a saying, "Pain will be your guide." (We have a bunch of slogans like that :D)

Astra

08-15-2003, 03:37 AM

A few times during a single session? That sounds a bit too much, unless he's really got some coordination and depth perception problems.

Not hitting..uhm.. the voluptuous curvatures of women has never been really a problem for me, even during the time I was a teen and totally incompetent in MA.

Not to say it hasn't happened a few times, but that is a few times in a few years!

Personally, I'd speak to the guy and let him know you have a problem. If he keeps doing it, smack him back as suggested.

rachel

08-15-2003, 06:03 AM

I will talk to him next time I see him. He's a blue belt with a green stripe. If he was a white belt I'd cut him some slack.

IsshinryuKarateGirl

08-15-2003, 10:22 AM

As another female student of the MAs, I know how you feel. I had this problem with one of the adolescents in the class and basically, I really knocked him off guard. He was quite surprised about where I got all my energy from to come back and ream it out on him. He hasn't touched me ever again.... So, just basically do all you can do to go back at this guy, he deserves it. Oh yes, and about your instructor...I would have made sure that every female in the school knew about how he "handled" your situation. It is his place to go and tell this guy to knock it off and to have you talk to this guy about it; that wouldn't work. While working out, you shouldn't have to deal with these types of problems.

jeffkyle

08-15-2003, 10:40 AM

You can beat up the harrasser and no one will care! :D
And you can repeat the process every class! :D

Michael Billings

08-15-2003, 10:53 AM

You have mentioned "your instructor" on several occasions. Is it his school, or is this a lower ranking Black or Brown Belt teaching classes? If it is not the school owner, you probably need to talk to he or she about the situation, and "your instructor's response." If it is the owner ... then I am sorry.

You may want to point out to him the repetitive nature of the "offense" and potential liability issues of allowing one of his/her students to gratuitously grope or hit you where he is.

I am with the rest in that this needs to be resolved, and it is up to the school owner to do it.

-MB:asian:

MountainSage

08-15-2003, 10:55 AM

Rachel.
Have you discussed this problem with other males in the class? I know that if one of the ladies in my class came to me with this problem, I would, at her request, have a serious talk with the offending person. Politely at first, then in the corner with my size 13 foot in his chest if that didn't work. I believe the responsibility is the instructors, yet the other males in the class have a duty to hold the line on what is socially acceptable. I guess I'm old fashion, Chivalry is not dead.

Mountain Sage

Kirk

08-15-2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by MountainSage
Rachel.
Have you discussed this problem with other males in the class? I know that if one of the ladies in my class came to me with this problem, I would, at her request, have a serious talk with the offending person. Politely at first, then in the corner with my size 13 foot in his chest if that didn't work. I believe the responsibility is the instructors, yet the other males in the class have a duty to hold the line on what is socially acceptable. I guess I'm old fashion, Chivalry is not dead.

Mountain Sage

Go boyeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

jeffkyle

08-15-2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by MountainSage
my size 13 foot
Mountain Sage

OMG! :eek:

Richard S.

08-15-2003, 11:04 AM

Dan Anderson

08-15-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by MountainSage
Rachel.
Chivalry is not dead.
Mountain Sage

Dittos from the left coast! If you don't fire up the twins (see smilie below), there are others who will. This might be Y2K but chivalry is not dead!

Yours,
Dan Anderson
:btg:

rmcrobertson

08-15-2003, 12:50 PM

Um...hate to sound excessively contrarian, but I don't agree that, "the other males in the class," should get into it. And I don't think chivalry's going to help, since the flip side of chivalry is exactly the problem you're dealing with. Otherwise, I'd recommend what's been recommended by others.

Or, you could introduce him to the posts on this thread...attached to a nine-pound weight...

Old Fat Kenpoka

08-15-2003, 01:55 PM

Rachel:

You are in a very difficult situation. I think that you must confront the problem directly. You need to talk to this guy and tell him you think he is out of line. He may be hitting on you. He may be unaware that he is touching you inappropriatly and may be doing it unintentionally (unlikely). He may just be a jerk. You won't know until you talk to him about it. If he turns out to be a jerk, then you have to talk to the school owner about it and see what happens. I hope that it all works out for the best for you.

On a side note...Our owner couldn't make it in one day and he had a student signed up for an introductory lesson. She walked in and came to the front desk at her appointed time. Since the owner was out and I was available, I taught the lesson. We always teach lone kimono on the first lesson. This woman was convinced that this was not a real self-defense technique and that I was only doing this to get my hand(s) on her breasts! Fortunately, she signed up anyway. We got married 8 years later.

MJS

08-15-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Um...hate to sound excessively contrarian, but I don't agree that, "the other males in the class," should get into it. And I don't think chivalry's going to help, since the flip side of chivalry is exactly the problem you're dealing with. Otherwise, I'd recommend what's been recommended by others.

Or, you could introduce him to the posts on this thread...attached to a nine-pound weight...

I agree with Robert-

I dont think that its any body elses business at the school. Why bring others into your personal problems. The only ones involved should be the 2 students and the Inst. If the Inst. doesnt seem to care or wont help you, then the best thing to do is leave the school.

Mike

jeffkyle

08-15-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
On a side note...Our owner couldn't make it in one day and he had a student signed up for an introductory lesson. She walked in and came to the front desk at her appointed time. Since the owner was out and I was available, I taught the lesson. We always teach lone kimono on the first lesson. This woman was convinced that this was not a real self-defense technique and that I was only doing this to get my hand(s) on her breasts! Fortunately, she signed up anyway. We got married 8 years later.

That is a funny story with a happy ending! :)

kenpo2dabone

08-15-2003, 04:03 PM

I hope this will help. When I was a yellow my instructor was a female and she was teaching me Opening Cowel (two hand chokehold from behind pushing you forward). Well it is sort of a blind technique where you rotate with a left outward block and a right punch to the soloplexis or floating rib. Well, I missed the soloplexis and floating rib, guess what I hit... I was actually the one who was embarassed even though she never made mention of it except for telling me the punch goes to the soloplexis. To this day I never miss the actual target on that technique. Even though she never made mention of it, it is engrained in my head. The point is, he is probably aware of what he is doing and he obviously doesn't think anything of it. I would not neccessarily retaliate by hitting him when you could embarras him which would be much more devastaing I think. Next time he does it since your instructor won't handle it quietly, simply say outloud "quite hitting me in the_____(insert favorite term) the punch goes to the face" or the soloplexis or wherever he should be punching. My guess is that he will be somewhat mortified and will more than likely stop. Not to mention get your instructors attention to the problem which he will have to deal with since it is out in the open. If this primarily happens in sparring then you might be dealing with a different matter as accidents do seem to happen in sparring since it is not a controled environment. It could very well be that he simply does not want to hit to hit you in the face so he is punching a little lower. In which case maybe give him the benefit if the doubt and talk to him one on one about it first and then you can use the mortification tactic. By the way your instructor is copping out by not handling it for you.

Sincerely,
Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

Disco

08-15-2003, 04:48 PM

Rachel, the Instructor has to, repeat, has to correct the problem. Tell him one more time and if there's no response, he's a jerk and your in the wrong school. Leave post haste cause more than likely, other things will probably start to reveal themselve.

arnisador

08-15-2003, 05:50 PM

I think you should say something to the person. I hold out some small hope that your instructor is hoping that making you do it will help teach you assertiveness and that he'll step in if it fails. (If he's copping out, that's a sad state and I think you should consider walking.) You need do no more than say to the person, after it happens, "Please don't hit me there." If he plays stupid, gives a wise-ass answer, tells you he's helping your training since it could happen in the street, or just keeps doing it, then refuse to work with him. Simply bow out. It's always your right. I've done it within the past year with someone who was too wild and not playing according to the class instructor's instructions. Bow out, say "Thank you," and stand to the side if you can't find another partner. Don't be drawn into an argument.

If you feel your skill level is equal to making the point with groin shots, fine. I've handled people who weren't playing by the rules like that before--they hit too hard for the exercise, I ask them to stop, then if it keeps up I make my point in a way that I think they'll understand. But there's no need for this.

The issue can be difficult. I'm known in knife sparring for liking to stab to the chest. With women I often hesitate to do so, taking out not only a large target area but also one of my favorite target areas. I ask myself, am I hampering their training by failing to attack an area that may be attacked in a real altercation? Renegade tells me to treat them like anyone else. Since the chest is a favorite free-sparring target of mine, I could well come off as a jerk myself! We also have, like most arts, locks that involve bracing the hand/arm against the chest. One technique in particular (our old-style #2 disarm) required placing the other person's hand right in the center of the chest. I had to teach this to a very well-endowed woman at a camp once and felt very awkward, as the basic technique amounted to telling her to place my hand between her breasts and hold it there tightly. While I wanted to teach the technique correctly, it was awkward for me.

I also agree that some accidental and some incidental contact will occur and that that can't be avoided. We are talking about contact sports. It sounds like this fact isn't an issue for you; I know some women prefer to train at all-female schools because of this.

Fundamently, though, I believe that if you think this guy is being a jerk then you're probably right, and you should trust your instincts. Dirtballs like this get away with this sort of frottage because they can make you think it's just a string of coincidences, that it's all in your head. Whether he's 14 and you can have some sympathy for his raging hormones or he's over 18 and clearly just being an ***hole, say something firm and unambiguous to him. If it keeps up, tell the instructor and bow out of working with the student whenever you end up paired with him. If your instructor won't let you bow out, that in itself is a danger sign in my book. If he lets you bow out--as he should--but hassles you about and/or doesn't address the issue with the offending student...you may have a difficult decision to make. One word of advice: This will not be the last problem you'll have there, if so. It's always hard in the martial arts to stop and change styles as you feel you're throwing away time you've invested, but you could be throwing good time after bad. You could take the benefits of the training elsewhere. In my experience relatively few martial artists got their black belt in the first art they try.

Jay Bell

08-15-2003, 07:47 PM

Great post, arnisador

rachel

08-15-2003, 09:29 PM

I can't believe all the responses to this thread. I really appreciate all your suggestions. I don't want to ever intentionally hurt a person.I will just tell this person to watch where they put their hands. If it keeps up, I'll have to take drastic action. My friend said she will yell out loud"stop touching my breasts!" We usually don't end up working with this man but when we do he always hits in the same spot. Maybe my teacher does want me to be more aggressive and that's why he wants me to handle it. I talked to him today about wanting to go harder in private lessons and in class if my partner does just because I tend to be meek. Maybe it's a female thing. But I definetly need to be more aggressive. He was very accommodating in my private lesson today. Thanks again.:)

tkdcanada

08-15-2003, 11:47 PM

Maybe the guy is so busy concentrating on NOT hitting them that he does it every time (or often enough). You know how when you concentrate so hard on something, the opposite will happen. Although it seems unlikely, it may very well be the case and overreacting to it will only cause everyone a lot of embarrassment and bad feelings. I think openness is always the best thing. Why not come off assertive but light? Jokingly say something like, "Okay, you get two chances. You get me there twice and I get a free one on you." You've brought the situation and how you feel about it to his attention but you've done it in a way that would alleviate any embarrassment if indeed it is innocent. Then, if it does happen twice, then follow through - he was warned so he'll be expecting it, so he'll be a lot less likely to let it happen again. Just a thought.

Mithios

08-16-2003, 01:06 AM

It is your instructor that should do the talking to this guy !!!! If he wont then he has a problem himself !!

theletch1

08-16-2003, 03:39 AM

At the very least I would think a general comment like "Fellas, watch your targets when training with the ladies..." while in the lineup before or at the end of class would be in line. No one gets singled out (right then) and that could be a very clear pre-emptive action against future "accidents". If it continued after that then a private discussion in the instructors office would be in line.

twinkletoes

08-16-2003, 11:45 AM

To state the obvious, this is NOT COOL.

I agree that there are a couple of problems here:

#1 The guy hitting your chest. A number of the existing suggestions are great. The one I like best is directly addressing it with him and asking him to direct his punches elsewhere. If you don't get any cooperation, don't train with him. There is no need to encourage him.

I'm also not against the idea of having another guy tell him. We have some senior students at my school who are very good at pulling other students aside and "giving them a heads up." While as the instructor, I tend to handle things personally, I know that often other male students, especially advanced ones, are glad to help out their classmates.

If he hears it from them, and then you address it directly, he will know that he really needs to take heed.

#2 The instructor. This could be a bigger problem. If he doesn't have your back, you may not be training at the right place. His job is not strictly to disseminate information. His role is to have the final word on any and all things that happen in his school. The school is an environment that he creates and maintains, and he bears full responsiblity for it.

If he's just encouraging you to be assertive, that's one thing. If he's dodging the topic because it's awkward, or because he doesn't see anything wrong with it, then he is the biggest culprit. That's a major problem.

Handle the student first. That's the short-term problem. After something happens, whether it is effective or not, it's a good time to check in with your instructor. Tell him what went down. Get his feedback. If it was a success and he's proud, then good. Maybe he's OK after all. If he is indifferent, or if you were unsuccessful and he's still unwilling to help, it's time to make it plain that he isn't keeping up his end. And if you don't get a response from him, it's time to go shopping for a new school.

As an aside, I have 2 BJJ programs I oversee. In one, it is mostly guys. In the other, it is mostly gals. In the first, I occasionally teach 2 versions of a technique (at the same time), if one of them is a little "gender-awkward." For example, one night I had only myself, a 16-year old girl, and a 40-year old guy. Now, the two of them are friends, and there's no weirdness between them, but one of the moves we worked involved kneeling over your pinned partner and squeezing their head between the knees. Needless to say, some modifications were offered for times when you didn't want to go that way.

The job of any instructor is to keep his students safe at all times when in his classes. This is not just from physical harm.

~TT

cali_tkdbruin

08-16-2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
An occational shot, yeah, suck it up. A constant thing? Thats different.

5. When doing techniques that aim for his groin, 'accidentally' connect. Hey...it happens in the street right? :)

I like this approach to the problem the best, you know an eye for an eye kind of response... :btg:

But seriously, as has been reiterated plenty of times already, an occassional shot to a gal's chest does happen (even at that point if I were the girl I'd bring it to the guy's attention). Anyway, if this guy's doing it habitually then yeah it's a problem that needs to be dealt with ASAP.

1. Woman informally talks to the perv, I mean perp and tells him to control his shots.
2. If it continues, woman brings it to the Master Instructor's attention.

Bottom line is that if Rachel brought this issue to the attention of the Master Instructor/owner of the dojo and not to one of his jr. assistants, then IMHO it is the MI's responsibility to correct the problem so it stops ASAP. If the MI refuses to deal with the issue then he's wimping out.

Irrespective of how good the MI, his instruction or dojo are, if Rachel or any women continue to be subjected to those inappropriate touches and it's not corrected by the MI, then they should find a new school. I know I wouldn't want my wife or daughter subjected to that type of treatment. Just my long winded 2 cents.

D.Cobb

08-18-2003, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by rachel
There is a man in our class who when paired up with my friend or myself, maybe other women too, I haven't asked them yet , always ends up punching our breasts. When he is supposed to throw punches at us and we have to block them he always punches too high or low and manages to punch our breasts. My friend thinks he does it on purpose. I think he may on occasion but that he might have a depth perception problem.I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Any way I talked to our teacher and he said it's not really his place to say anything to this man and we should tell him ourselves. I prefer not to work with this individual because of this. I can tell this person but the teacher said in a real fight we could be touched on our breasts and to deal with it. Wrong answer? I'm kinda pissed with my teachers response to this. If someone is trying to cop free feels in the Dojo it's unacceptable. And we can block it's just that he always manages to get a few touches in and we are not happy. What should we do?

Seeing as your teacher won't do anything about it, you need to kick this guy as hard as you can, right where his mother will not kiss him, and yell as loud as you can, I SAID DON"T! .

And when teacher has something to say, remind him of his response to your complaint. And say something like, "Well that's what would happen if he touched me in the street like that. Plus I'd get the police involved!"

That'll make them both think twice about their respective responsabilities as far as female students are concerned. Also buy yourself one of thos plastic breast guards. Don't tell anyone, and whatch his face when he busts his knuckles by punching you wrongly.

I hate sexual harrasment in the dojo!

--Dave

:asian:

PaulP

08-18-2003, 09:47 PM

Hi Rachel
All the responses are good.
Yes there are accidents, the occasional contact does happen. It is up to your instructor to stop this. But if he doesn’t, you can refuse to train with him and if this is happening to others they can do the same.
I had a similar situation. Years ago at the first club I trained at there was a woman that used to always strike the guys in the groin. It could have been self-defense or sparring, it didn’t matter. We would tell her, but that didn’t stop her. So my training buddy and me decide to reciprocate. Every time she kick or punched us in the nads we would punch or slap her breasts (and they where big targets). She complained saying that women’s breasts are very sensitive and it hurt. She also had a hard time explaining the bruise to her husband. We told her that the boys down there where sensitive also (I was bruised on occasion also and that’s wearing a cup). She seemed to get the connection.
A buddy of mine at another club had this guy that would always hit the other guys in the nads also. Instead beating on him I decide to wear a boxing no foul cup over his uniform. A no foul is a big cup with a big padded lower abdomen protector, it’s big and red. When they did sparring and he was partner with this guy he would loudly excuse him self and quickly return with this on. It was a humorous way to defuse the situation. You could try a big chest padding like they have for Tae Kwon Do.
The bottom line is, if you are uncomfortable with what this guy is doing, it’s wrong. Don’t put-up with it.

cali_tkdbruin

08-19-2003, 12:42 AM

PaulP, that's certainly an interesting turn of events. This time it's a woman who's the perpetrator and attacking the guys' nether regions i.e., their cooters.

I hope she learned her lesson to shut that crap down. Just the simple thought of taking a shot in the Nads makes me want to fall to the ground and curl up in the fetal position.

It seems that Rachel's tormentor needs to learn the same lesson as your woman gonads attacker, and that is, don't go there!!!

Rachel's Master Instructor needs to step up and correct this problem in order to protect all of the girls and women in his dojo.

liangzhicheng

08-20-2003, 10:35 AM

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon...yes, what the guy is doing is wrong, and the teacher should do something about it. Time to jump off the bandwagon...women and men should be treated equally. Improper contact happens irregardless of sex. The instructor should protect everyone from this, not just the females. Note that I'm not targeting anyone with this comment. I train with several women. How I train with them depends on their comfort level. Do I avoid touching their breasts? Yes. However, with the women who are more confident about their martial abilities, I feel more comfortable targeting the chest area instead of going higher near the neck. Women shouldn't need to be protected, and having us men jumping in when women are in trouble helps enforce the image of women being weak, which is most definitely not true. Good luck with your situation, Rachel.

Cruentus

08-20-2003, 02:14 PM

I am more curious as to what the outcome of all this will be. Can you update us when the time comes?

Thanx :D

Damian Mavis

08-20-2003, 03:19 PM

All my female students wear a hard cupped bra made for martial arts and they have never have never had a problem since it's like putting a wall on between your chest and any incomming objects.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Seig

08-21-2003, 03:59 AM

I have tried to encourage female chest protectors of one sort or another and the women tend to look on them with disdain. As a rfesult, sometimes, incidental contact occurs.

Damian Mavis

08-21-2003, 11:12 PM

I look at chest protectors with disdain too... but that's a federation bias... anyway, these martial arts bras are non visible and go on just like any sports bra under thier uniform. I don't see how a woman could have any issue with that.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

tkdcanada

08-21-2003, 11:48 PM

I imagine that they would be VERY uncomfortable. Anyway, it's either wear something, or suck it up, just like a guy wearing a cup (I'm talking about UNintentional contact). Personally, I don't find that area very sensitive anyway - being hit there would be not different than being hit anywhere else. Just my opinion.

cali_tkdbruin

08-22-2003, 12:37 AM

I'm a guy, and when we're doing drills, defensive techniques, or even supposed non-contact sparring, I very rarely take a shot to the nads, and by the same token I know the gals at my dojang very rarely experience shots to the chest. It's all controlled training in a training hall, dojang, dojo, whatever. Bottomline is that it's controlled.

However, during full contact exercises, then it's pretty much open season. In any event, let me point out that everyone wears protective equiptment during these full contact training exercises. So, if you take a shot to the balls or the chest, you just eat it and suck it up because you are, or should be wearing cups and chest protectors. The equiptment deflects most of the impact/danger to your privates.

That said, if you have a guy who's consistently copping a feel on the girls during exercises where normally you don't need to go to those areas, then shouldn't the master instructor put a stop to that?

If you're in a training hall environment, then a MI should not allow his female students to be sexually harassed. It's not about being overly protective of women or girls. IMHO it's about respect for female martial artists . They deserve as much, I understand this because I have sisters and a daughter who's a martial artist. I wouldn't allow them to be harrassed at a MA school, or anywhere else if I could prevent it... :asian: