Koryo Gumdo

[Daniel Sullivan]

On another forum, someone said that they were involved with Koryo Gumdo. This appears to be a sub organiztion of the US National Taekwondo Federation. http://www.usntf.com/affiliatedgroups/wkga.php (http://www.usntf.com/affiliatedgroups/wkga.php)

I looked at some videos and while some of the forms videos looked alright,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwDmIAyF2ao&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwDmIAyF2ao&feature=related)

"the sparring was not my cup of tea and participants utilized those ActionFlex swords "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrXVZnGpZjw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrXVZnGpZjw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXcZNIzNE1g&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXcZNIzNE1g&feature=related)

Anyone familiar with GM John Wood? He seems to be the man at the top of this art and is the man in the forms video.

Thank you,

Daniel

[Chris Parker]

Sorry, Daniel, just to clarify here.... you thought those "forms" were "alright"? Personally, I thought they were rather awful, frankly, and showed a great lack of understanding of the use of a sword, the realities of sword combat, there were a number of things that really can't be done with a sword (rather than the bokken [wooden sword - sorry, can't remember the Korean term.... begins with an "m", I think]), and I just kept seeing "dead.... dead..... dead..... dead and looking silly.... dead...."

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry, Daniel, just to clarify here.... you thought those "forms" were "alright"? Personally, I thought they were rather awful, frankly, and showed a great lack of understanding of the use of a sword, the realities of sword combat, there were a number of things that really can't be done with a sword (rather than the bokken [wooden sword - sorry, can't remember the Korean term.... begins with an "m", I think]), and I just kept seeing "dead.... dead..... dead..... dead and looking silly.... dead...."



I am trying to avoid flaming an art that I don't practice. I am also unsure of the context in which the video was shot, so I am witholding comment.

My main reason for posting is the hope that someone knows who he is and what his background is.

That and to generate some kind of discussion on the Korean sword forum.

Edit: The Korean word for a bokken is mokdo.

Daniel

[Namii]

That form would have looked better if he actually put some effort into it. He just was going through the motions/ "doing the dance" as what Sabumnim calls it.
And I think the sword toss at the end was completely unnecessary. What was that? A form of blood removal/chiburi?
Korean word for wood sword/bokken is "mokgum"

[Daniel Sullivan]

That form would have looked better if he actually put some effort into it. He just was going through the motions/ "doing the dance" as what Sabumnim calls it.
And I think the sword toss at the end was completely unnecessary. What was that? A form of blood removal/chiburi?
While I thoroughly agree with both you and Chris, my primary reason for posting was to find out if anyone is familiar with the art.


Korean word for wood sword/bokken is "mokgum"
That one too.
Mokgeom: 木剣
Mokdo: 木刀

Both are correct.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry, Daniel, just to clarify here.... you thought those "forms" were "alright"? Personally, I thought they were rather awful, frankly, and showed a great lack of understanding of the use of a sword, the realities of sword combat, there were a number of things that really can't be done with a sword (rather than the bokken [wooden sword - sorry, can't remember the Korean term.... begins with an "m", I think]), and I just kept seeing "dead.... dead..... dead..... dead and looking silly.... dead...."
Chris,

I have a specific reason for posting this. I will PM you and it will be crystal clear.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

Tried to PM you, Chris, but your box is full.

Daniel

[Chris Parker]

Clearing it now, oh the curse of popularity....

EDIT: Cleared.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Clearing it now, oh the curse of popularity....

EDIT: Cleared.
PM sent.

The gent in question indicates that this art came out of HDGD. I'm trying to trace its origin and any legitimacy, since it is probably less than a decade old.

I figure that someone has heard of this GM Wood.

Daniel

[Chris Parker]

I will say that I have serious doubts about any sword system that was created in the last decade or so, as there will be no real way to have it tested or supported, so it needs to be highly based on something legit, and, uh, this ain't. At all. Whatsoever.

I feel completely confident saying this, by the way.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Contrast Koryo Gumdo with another recent (in the grand scheme of things) sword art, shinkendo, and its founder, Toshihiro Obata (you may recognize him as villainous henchmen from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Showdown in Little Tokyo). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLTr9zFegQ&feature=fvsr

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

I will say that I have serious doubts about any sword system that was created in the last decade or so, as there will be no real way to have it tested or supported,

Agreed, though I am less concerned with an art's newness than I am with claims of antiquity or presenting the art in such a way as to make it look like it dates back to the hwarang.


so it needs to be highly based on something legit, and, uh, this ain't. At all. Whatsoever.

I feel completely confident saying this, by the way.
Seems to be HDGD based, given samurang references:
http://samurang.tripod.com/
http://koryogumdo.com/

This is a video from the second link: http://www.koryogumdo.com/videos/videos.html

This is the history of the art by GM Wood: http://www.atcgumdo.com/

So depending on what you think of HDGD's legitmiacy, given that it is less than thirty years old (founded in 1982) and has roots in Shimgumdo, itself less than fifty years old and whose founder's claimed training is one hundred day period of meditation in which the knowledge of the art came to him in a mystical fashion.

I won't dis the art of Koryo Gumdo or the GM on a public forum; you can certainly look and comment as you feel appropriate.

Mainly, I am interested in whether or not anyone can trace this gent's lineage regarding gumdo training. I figure that he must be known to someone. http://www.palatinemartialarts.com/JOHNWOOD2.html

Daniel

[jks9199]

OK... not impressed by anything I've seen so far. Very unimpressed by some of it, in fact. Nicely athletic, I guess. And THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuf8T7C_l7Q&feature=related)just has so many bad ideas in it that I'm lost...

[Namii]

We do papercutting also but its not always held by your classmates. Usually hung up on a clothesline type setup.
Funny thing is how those combinations he was doing were very similar to combos from the Haidong Gumdo forms.

[shima]

I did some koryo gumdo when I was at the tae kwon do school. Didn't really like it. So happy to be back into proper Iaido again, which is what I started in to begin with.

[Chris Parker]

Contrast Koryo Gumdo with another recent (in the grand scheme of things) sword art, shinkendo, and its founder, Toshihiro Obata (you may recognize him as villainous henchmen from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Showdown in Little Tokyo). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLTr9zFegQ&feature=fvsr

Daniel

Unfortunately that clip is not available here.... but I am familar with Obata's Shinkendo. And it highlights what I meant when I said it has be highly based on established methods and systems. Shinkendo was developed primarily out of Toyama Ryu, a system created from a range of older methods to give to the Japanese military after the Sino-Japanese War, as it was realised that the Japanese officers had no idea how to use the swords they were issued. As a result it is highly pragmatic, and has a high focus on tameshigiri (test cutting). But both Toyama Ryu and it's offshoot Shinkendo can trace themselves back to legit sword arts. I do have some issues with the way Shinkendo operates, but can see the core as valid. That is not the case with this Koryo Gumdo based on the clips provided.


Agreed, though I am less concerned with an art's newness than I am with claims of antiquity or presenting the art in such a way as to make it look like it dates back to the hwarang.


Seems to be HDGD based, given samurang references:
http://samurang.tripod.com/ (http://samurang.tripod.com/)
http://koryogumdo.com/ (http://koryogumdo.com/)

This is a video from the second link: http://www.koryogumdo.com/videos/videos.html (http://www.koryogumdo.com/videos/videos.html)

This is the history of the art by GM Wood: http://www.atcgumdo.com/ (http://www.atcgumdo.com/)

So depending on what you think of HDGD's legitmiacy, given that it is less than thirty years old (founded in 1982) and has roots in Shimgumdo, itself less than fifty years old and whose founder's claimed training is one hundred day period of meditation in which the knowledge of the art came to him in a mystical fashion.

I won't dis the art of Koryo Gumdo or the GM on a public forum; you can certainly look and comment as you feel appropriate.

Mainly, I am interested in whether or not anyone can trace this gent's lineage regarding gumdo training. I figure that he must be known to someone. http://www.palatinemartialarts.com/JOHNWOOD2.html (http://www.palatinemartialarts.com/JOHNWOOD2.html)

Daniel

I will state once again that the "sword training" exhibited in these clips demonstrate no knowledge, understanding, or skill of bladed combat, and a large number of things shown go against the way a sword is used. Once again, I see "dead.... dead.... dead..... dead and looking silly.... dead...."

As to Mr Woods lineage, that I'll leave to those who can comment. What I know is what I see presented as the art.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I guess that what I'm trying to figure out is who made him a grandmaster since he didn't invent the art and thus is not claiming GM status as the organizational head. Somebody gave this man a grandmaster rank.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

I did some koryo gumdo when I was at the tae kwon do school. Didn't really like it. So happy to be back into proper Iaido again, which is what I started in to begin with.
If you don't mind my asking, what was it that you did not like?

Daniel

[shima]

If you don't mind my asking, what was it that you did not like?

Daniel

The difference in stances... and mostly the forms just didn't appeal to me as much as the iaido forms appeal to me. I'd been doing iaido for a while by the time I tried it, so I guess I'm just an iaido purist from all my years practicing that, heh.

[Daniel Sullivan]

The difference in stances... and mostly the forms just didn't appeal to me as much as the iaido forms appeal to me.
Again, I hope you don't mind my asking two questions:

1. What kind of differences did you notice in stances

2. What was it about the forms that was offputting?

Sorry to pick your brain, but your the only participant on this thread that has actually done Koryo Gumdo.

Many thanks,

Daniel

[Bruno@MT]

I will say that I have serious doubts about any sword system that was created in the last decade or so, as there will be no real way to have it tested or supported, so it needs to be highly based on something legit, and, uh, this ain't. At all. Whatsoever.

I feel completely confident saying this, by the way.

The moment I see someone 'twirl' his sword / bokken and make those fancy swirling motions, he goes to the 'poser' bin. Oh and I agree on the dubiousness of newly created sword systems.

[jks9199]

What didn't I like? The twirls. The toss. The absolute lack of coordination between the body and the sword. Doing cutting, even of paper with a wooden sword, in a way that the holder is potentially in the path of the blade if a mistake happens. Need more? I'd have to watch again. Not exactly something I want to do!

[Daniel Sullivan]

What didn't I like? The twirls. The toss.
Twirls I am neutral towards in a solo sword form. Hopefully, all of the opponents are dead by the time he does the toss, though I did not care for it either.


The absolute lack of coordination between the body and the sword. Doing cutting, even of paper with a wooden sword, in a way that the holder is potentially in the path of the blade if a mistake happens. Need more? I'd have to watch again. Not exactly something I want to do!
Regarding cutting the 'holder,' are you referring to the move at about the 47 second mark where he cuts up and back?

Or are you referring to the guy holding the paper when you say holder?

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

The moment I see someone 'twirl' his sword / bokken and make those fancy swirling motions, he goes to the 'poser' bin.
Neutral on twirls in small doses, though again, in a solo sword form, I can tolerate it.


Oh and I agree on the dubiousness of newly created sword systems.
And so, back to my original question: Does anyone know anything about the genesis of this art or the lineage if its US chairman?

Not out to tear the man's lineage apart; Just trying to find out more about the art.

Daniel

[shima]

Again, I hope you don't mind my asking two questions:

1. What kind of differences did you notice in stances

2. What was it about the forms that was offputting?

Sorry to pick your brain, but your the only participant on this thread that has actually done Koryo Gumdo.

Many thanks,

Daniel

I felt that some moves in the forms were too much for show without being as practical and realistic of the Iaido I'm used to.

There's a handful of shallow stances that aren't cat stances, not a fan of shallow stances with little to no purpose...

Here's a video similar to one of the forms I learned in Koryo Gumdo that I found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4QL1qB5Fvo

Mostly it's the shallow stances and lack of definition to the stances I really dislike. I don't like the angle she holds the sword at for the blocks, and the weird swirlies have no logical use to me there's much better ways to deflect the blade in my opinion.

Again I had done Iaido for a few years before (and presently still do iaido again now) so I think I'm just mostly an iaido purist preferring that.

[jks9199]

Twirls I am neutral towards in a solo sword form. Hopefully, all of the opponents are dead by the time he does the toss, though I did not care for it either.


Regarding cutting the 'holder,' are you referring to the move at about the 47 second mark where he cuts up and back?

Or are you referring to the guy holding the paper when you say holder?

Daniel
I'm referring to cutting towards the guy holding the paper. If the sword had broken, or the swordsman lost his grip, or even just stepped too deeply, the guy holding the paper would have been in a world of hurt, no?

I've been taught to look at three parts of safety: Safety to Self (is what I'm doing dangerous to me? is my body in the path of the blade?), Safety to My Mates (are those around me in danger? are my friends in the path of the blade?), Safety to the Weapon (is my blade going to shatter when I hit that target?) Much of what I saw in those videos violated one or more of those safety principles. Some of it violated all of them...

[Ken Morgan]

Sigh…..

Anyone who has done kendo for a year could take apart at will any of participants in the sparring. It may be that the participants are new themselves, I don’t know, I’m just judging based on the videos.

Jumping? Sword twirling? Shortening up the weapon? Not keeping the tip on target? Seriously???????

Why did they build such huge battleships in the past? Because they needed a stable gun platform from which to fire the guns. Sword is not any different, your stance, your body needs to be balanced and centred in order to hit your target with sufficient force, if you don’t, your target will have a nasty gash, combined with a pissed off attitude, and you will be dead.

[Namii]

in the Youtube video shima posted, it looked like the lady was zombie like, half asleep, or gone in another world. Like she had no soul. If it is supposedly coming from Haidong gumdo, you're supposed to do the forms fast and with intent like you are in a battle.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sigh…..

Anyone who has done kendo for a year could take apart at will any of participants in the sparring. It may be that the participants are new themselves, I don’t know, I’m just judging based on the videos.
When Action Flex swords are utilized, I tend to view it as fun foam sword whacking rather than as serious sparring. They may not feel that way, but even if the participants look like Toshihiro Obata, I just cannot get past those foamy swords. They remind me just a little too much of 'The Schwartz' fight in Spaceballs.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

in the Youtube video shima posted, it looked like the lady was zombie like, half asleep, or gone in another world. Like she had no soul. If it is supposedly coming from Haidong gumdo, you're supposed to do the forms fast and with intent like you are in a battle.
The form did not look like any of the haedong gumdo that I have seen (which admitedly is not a lot). The stances are, as Shima observed, fairly upright and mobile, closer to kendo than to HDGD. That is not a slight; it is just different.

Not sure how far along one is to test for a blackbelt either; if it is a two years to black belt system, then my expectations of the depth of her performance are going to be different than if it is, say, four years or more to black belt.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

I found this one. The gent in the vid looks more involved in the form and performs it with greater speed and power. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvIDRPVLiJ4&NR=1

Daniel

[cdunn]

The form did not look like any of the haedong gumdo that I have seen (which admitedly is not a lot). The stances are, as Shima observed, fairly upright and mobile, closer to kendo than to HDGD. That is not a slight; it is just different.

Not sure how far along one is to test for a blackbelt either; if it is a two years to black belt system, then my expectations of the depth of her performance are going to be different than if it is, say, four years or more to black belt.

Daniel

The big thing that leads me to conclude that there is little to no HDGD in this "Koryo Gumdo" is the basic mechanics. Whatever of Haidong cane from Shinkendo, the bulk of the technical curricula appears, as I understand it, to be derived from Gicheon, a rather esoteric, cult-like martial art.

In any case, the two arts both share a peculiar set of stances and motion between them - Fundamentally, power is generated by reaching planting a foot in the direction of motion, and sliding/dropping the body into the stance, rather than the back foot thrusting against the floor, as would be done in the typical 'walking punch'. The largest tell of a skilled practitioner is the transition into sodoseh, the short-low stance, which generally starts as a long stance similar to the common front stance, and then the rear foot slides along the ground and the knee drops, until the two knees are about 6-8 inches apart ("two fists distance"). The cut is fluid, and is a part of the slide. This is what I don't see here.

[Chris Parker]

I found this one. The gent in the vid looks more involved in the form and performs it with greater speed and power. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvIDRPVLiJ4&NR=1

Daniel

Oh dear. From a swordsmanship point of view, there is nothing good here at all. It really looks like movie-fantasy based movements. The 'cuts' are far from effective, most of the actions would result in embarrassing death of the practitioner. If this is what is being learnt, I recommend finding a good Iaido or Kendo teacher instead.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Oh dear. From a swordsmanship point of view, there is nothing good here at all. It really looks like movie-fantasy based movements. The 'cuts' are far from effective, most of the actions would result in embarrassing death of the practitioner.
This begs the question: what is the main purpose of learning the art: is it a self improvement through form practice or a genuine combat art?

Regarding the movements, are not some of those stances and movements used in some Chinese sword styles?



If this is what is being learnt, I recommend finding a good Iaido or Kendo teacher instead.
Found one of those years ago.:)

Daniel

[shima]

in the Youtube video shima posted, it looked like the lady was zombie like, half asleep, or gone in another world. Like she had no soul. If it is supposedly coming from Haidong gumdo, you're supposed to do the forms fast and with intent like you are in a battle.

Yeah and that was the problem with a lot of the forms I learned in Koryo Gumdo during the year or so I practiced it... they didn't have the soul and the intent you feel when you do iaido. But then again this goes with my problem I had with tae kwon do and the often more relaxed forward stance as opposed to karate and it's deeper stances, it just feels like you're not fully committed (in my humble opinion) when you don't have full "proper" deep stances to me.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yeah and that was the problem with a lot of the forms I learned in Koryo Gumdo during the year or so I practiced it... they didn't have the soul and the intent you feel when you do iaido. But then again this goes with my problem I had with tae kwon do and the often more relaxed forward stance as opposed to karate and it's deeper stances, it just feels like you're not fully committed (in my humble opinion) when you don't have full "proper" deep stances to me.
Never practiced Okinawan karate, but I understand that stances in Okinawan styles are similar to taekwondo's more upright and mobile stances. I also understand that Funakoshi's were as well and that the deep stances were introduced by his son.

As for commitment, we don't use deep stances in kendo/kumdo either, but you can definietly tell who is commited to a strike.

If you don't mind my asking, how long is the average time to reach blackbelt in that style?

Daniel

[Namii]

PM sent.

The gent in question indicates that this art came out of HDGD. I'm trying to trace its origin and any legitimacy, since it is probably less than a decade old.

I figure that someone has heard of this GM Wood.

Daniel

This is where I was referring to when i had said "if this supposedly came from HDGD..."
But anyways, I see what you mean by her being mostly upright like Kendo and not in low stances.
The guy in this last youtube video does look more involved. Little more soul and intent than the womans video but still not quite what I like to see. I too wonder how long it takes to reach black belt in Koryo Gumdo.

[Chris Parker]

This begs the question: what is the main purpose of learning the art: is it a self improvement through form practice or a genuine combat art?

They go together, hand in hand, really. The self improvement through practice of swordsmanship is based in the mindset of training in killing movements and refinement of actions to an essential elegance. This has none of that. How much self improvement do you get by going through movements that are divorced from any form of reality? It just doesn't have any congruence to it, and cannot generate any real benefit that way (other than by a more placebo type effect).


Regarding the movements, are not some of those stances and movements used in some Chinese sword styles?

These ain't Chinese swords, though... and that's a big part of why what they're doing is so bad, honestly. One sword is not the same as another, and these ones don't work the way they're being shown being used here.


Found one of those years ago.:)

Daniel

Well done to you, then! I was offered an opportunity to train in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu tonight.... don't know how I'll fit it in, though!

[Namii]

Yeah and that was the problem with a lot of the forms I learned in Koryo Gumdo during the year or so I practiced it... they didn't have the soul and the intent you feel when you do iaido. But then again this goes with my problem I had with tae kwon do and the often more relaxed forward stance as opposed to karate and it's deeper stances, it just feels like you're not fully committed (in my humble opinion) when you don't have full "proper" deep stances to me.

I really get into those deep stances in Haidong gumdo.:) And yes some might argue about the sword twirling and stuff but we dont toss our sword like that. And the twirling is less than what is shown in these videos. I interpret our twirls as fancy chiburis (since theyre at the ends of the forms) I like going through the forms like telling a story. Bursts of energy, and then a natural pause waiting for the next attack.. A fight on the battle field, never take your eyes off the enemy. Intent.
Sorry i was getting into it there

[Daniel Sullivan]

They go together, hand in hand, really. The self improvement through practice of swordsmanship is based in the mindset of training in killing movements and refinement of actions to an essential elegance. This has none of that. How much self improvement do you get by going through movements that are divorced from any form of reality? It just doesn't have any congruence to it, and cannot generate any real benefit that way (other than by a more placebo type effect).
One effect aside from placebo is simple basic fitness and flexibility. This day and age, I'm just happy to see people up and moving.


These ain't Chinese swords, though... and that's a big part of why what they're doing is so bad, honestly. One sword is not the same as another, and these ones don't work the way they're being shown being used here.
I know that and you know that. Even though swords similar to the jian and the dao were used in Korea in addition to the curved, two handed saber that resembles the katana, virtually every Korean sword art that I have seen uses either a katana or a sword so similar to a katana that it is essentially a katana.


Well done to you, then! I was offered an opportunity to train in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu tonight.... don't know how I'll fit it in, though!
Let us know how it goes!

Daniel

[Chris Parker]

Will do, if it goes ahead... that would be in conjunction with two Koryu Kenjutsu systems, my Ninjutsu training and teaching, a Koryu Jujutsu system I'm hoping to be involved in... my word, I'm busy! The MJER would be at a time that I'm at work, but apparently it can be moved around if needed. I don't need sleep, do I? I mean, not really?

[Daniel Sullivan]

I found this. Much better than the sparring earlier sparring vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/masterjpwood#p/u/12/BJgOl6XBhhk
Not what I am accustomed to in kendo, but better than the other vids that I had posted. Apparently, only the head and waist are valid targets.

Daniel