Koryu Bujutsu

[combatisshinryu]

Found this group on Meetup. They are in Lincoln Park MI and appear to be organized under a Stephen who is from Ashbun VA. Any insights into this group?

[jks9199]

Virginia and Michigan are rather far apart... That's about all I can say from what you've posted. Is THIS (http://www.meetup.com/The-Ashburn-Koryu-Bujutsu-Jujutsu-Ninjutsu-Group/)the group? They seem rather sketchy on what exactly they teach, and it's origin. Doesn't mean it's bad or wrong -- but I can't find much out, either.

[combatisshinryu]

this appears to be the same outfit xcept there is a group that meets in michigan, the stephen person is also listed as organizer of the michigan group and apparently came to michigan for a "dojo visit"

[pgsmith]

There is nothing listed in anything about them on-line that indicates that there is any koryu school or instructor involvement at all. My opinion is that it is a group of folks that like the idea of training in a koryu art far more than the reality of actually searching out and joining a koryu school. They have no real idea what the koryu really are, or how totally different what they are doing is from actual koryu training.

There are some legitimate koryu schools practicing in Michigan. If you're interested, I can probably hunt up contact information.

[Chris Parker]

They look like an X-Kan split off, or possibly still involved. The Takamatsu shirt they sell is the big giveaway, but there were quite a few other clues (one quick little question, this shirt is designed with calligraphy from Takamatsu's own hand? Where did that come from?) My money would be on Bujinkan due to the dress-sense, or possibly Genbukan with the "Samurai/Ninjutsu" concept that constantly goes through their pages. It's fairly safe to say that few Bujinkan people seem to really have any understanding of Koryu training or approach, so while there are some Koryu schools that go into the curriculum, this just ain't Koryu.

[combatisshinryu]

I did find this on the VA website=

"Seiko Bujutsu:. What does this mean in terms of what we are studying. There are many questions students often ask around techniques and application. This is a very tactical viewpoint and understandable given they are wanting to obtain and grow knowledge in these arts.

I would like to provide a more strategic view point:

'Seishinteki Kyoyo' (Spiritual refinement), which involves the heart, spirit and soul.

Taijutsu (Unarmed defense), involving the body and the physical techniques.

'Shin Gi Tai Icchi', combined produce miraculous powers and gives the practitioner the (Heart, technique and body combination).

[Chris Parker]

Yep, it was pages like that that lead me to believe it's a Bujinkan group under a different name. The terms there are very much X-Kan terminology and lexicon. That said, the translation they give is a little, uh, fanciful....

[Koryu Bujutsu]

Gang,

This is Stephen and one of my students brought this to my attention. I laughed, shared it with my group leaders and thought interesting that people would guess, speculate and theorize about what we teach without knowing anything. The website is vague because I only teach semi private these days and the knowledge I have only goes to Students and not some mass marketing effort... We are not here to have the coolest 200 re-take video to lure in tons of new potential students... There is enough about history which alot of people devote that time instead of real knowledge/training that works on the Big guys... I know 100% that the knowledge we have is very rare and further more in my 27 years of pursuing these old arts in USA, Europe and Japan I know where to obtain the knowledge and more importantly where not to go.... :)

To me, it's very simple, come down to one of my schools, Michigan, Ohio or come visit me in VA and do a class for free.. Empty your cup, come train and experience Koryu Bujutsu like I did many years ago.... Then process that against what you know and see where you end up in a comparission...

P.S. We are in no way teaching what the kans teach in any fashion.... Nice catch on the takamatsu shirt... :)

Please feel free to contact me off of the meetup site in VA.... (20147)

Arigato,
Stephen

[Chris Parker]

Hi Stephen,

I'm not really sure why you came along here, as this entire post onlyl confirms that you have no idea whatsoever about Koryu, and are not teaching it at all. Add to that you are making claims that are rather easily countered, and I'm a little confused.


Gang,

This is Stephen and one of my students brought this to my attention. I laughed, shared it with my group leaders and thought interesting that people would guess, speculate and theorize about what we teach without knowing anything.

First off, we were asked about your group and what we thought of it (in a Koryu section, and therefore from a Koryu perspective... and the amount of information was more than enough to demonstrate that you have no idea about Koryu, frankly). But that said, if you're not going to have much information presented, guesswork and theorising is exactly what we can do. And I must say that you have given no indication that we were off by a detail at all, really.


The website is vague because I only teach semi private these days and the knowledge I have only goes to Students and not some mass marketing effort...

That's all fine and good, but the fact remains that your description of your teachings doesn't match the limited evidence you have provided. What you're doing ain't Koryu.


We are not here to have the coolest 200 re-take video to lure in tons of new potential students...

Er, right.... still doesn't explain the complete lack of explaination about what you teach, though.


There is enough about history which alot of people devote that time instead of real knowledge/training that works on the Big guys... I know 100% that the knowledge we have is very rare and further more in my 27 years of pursuing these old arts in USA, Europe and Japan I know where to obtain the knowledge and more importantly where not to go.... :)

Right, it's this talk about "what works on the Big guys" that shows you have no idea about Koryu, you know. I'm going to suggest you read the following thread:http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93854

You may notice that what you're doing is nothing like Koryu training. At all.


To me, it's very simple, come down to one of my schools, Michigan, Ohio or come visit me in VA and do a class for free.. Empty your cup, come train and experience Koryu Bujutsu like I did many years ago.... Then process that against what you know and see where you end up in a comparission...

Sigh.... talking about comparing what we already train in, and seeing what you teach, then possibly changing our approach shows a complete lack of understanding about Koryu (again!). Koryu are about preservation of the old systems, not who can beat who, or taking some of this, and some of that, and putting it together the way you have. The only way that someone already training in an art who attends an actual Koryu session can then alter their approach is to start training in that Koryu, end of story.


P.S. We are in no way teaching what the kans teach in any fashion.... Nice catch on the takamatsu shirt... :)

Really? Are you serious in that comment (not teaching what is found in the Kan's)? Really? Cause, you see, first off there's the description of "Jujutsu/Ninjutsu Training", then there's the Takamatsu shirt (despite what many X-Kan people think, Takamatsu is not widely known outside of X-Kan circles, and would not be of any importance to any other Koryu group, so that shows the roots pretty well itself), and, if that wasn't enough....

SaYkGCQk-Ic

0:08 The initial bow (frankly, this shows no actual Koryu training, as the bow is completely inaccurate. It's meant to be performed with everyone facing the Kamidana, not each other, as it's about waking the Shinto spirits, and scaring off evil ones).

0:17 The bow towards each other shows a lack of proper instruction in Reiho, one of the cornerstones of actual Koryu training. This is evidenced by the differences between both partners bowing method and depth, amongst other things.

0:22 "Ote Yawaraka Yoshi!" This is taken directly out of Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, as taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan, and is done again incredibly badly. The foot position is what is refered to as "dead foot", and shows again a lack of proper Koryu training, or even proper X-Kan training, frankly.

0:25-38 The kamae is a very bad Ichimonji no Kamae, again pure X-Kan (with more of a Genbukan feel, so that's where I'm thinking most of this has come from), and the movement is so pure X-Kan derived that it's ridiculous that you would have anyone believe that you are "We are in no way teaching what the kans teach in any fashion".

1:04 Really? This is a standout in terrible from an entire clip of it. One more time, nothing here is anything to do with Koryu training at all, and is purely derived from X-Kan material.

1:08 A Roundhouse Kick? In Koryu training? Not a chance, son. If you think this has any place in these systems, you once more have no understanding of Koryu whatsoever. At all.

Honestly, I can keep going with the rest (the rolling around with one guy in a headlock for example), but it should be more than clear that what you are doing is purely derived from some rather bad X-Kan training, and no idea about Koryu whatsoever.

If you enjoy it, and the guys enjoy it, that's great. But this is in no way Koryu training, and is X-Kan derived. Your claim that it isn't is just ridiculous.


Please feel free to contact me off of the meetup site in VA.... (20147)

Arigato,
Stephen

Not really any need, as it's plainly obvious that you're either deluding yourself, or your students, as to what you're doing. Really, what you're doing may be great, or at least enjoyable, but frankly it is nothing like Koryu, and has no place refering to itself as such. I do train in Koryu, as well as X-Kan material, so I am speaking from experience here, just so you know.

[Tanaka]

Chris,

I dont have much time for your bujinkan BS as I have been hearing the same old tired crap for 27 years out of many of the people that hold much higher ranks then you with your little 3rd Dan which by the way is worthless. I could train any decent guy 6 months or less and he would wipe the floor with you and your 3rd Dan knowledge LOL.... :)

I'm surprised with your big mouth they have not given you a 15th Dan. Why I came along is simple because everything you represent is not Koryu Bujutsu in any fashion, shape, form and you are a typical kan joke. I am sure you are able to trick 13 year olds to train in your verson of ninpo but the big boys out here know that everythign you do with a little resistance WON"T WORK...

You are incorrect again when you think you should not test your skills. Contests in Japan were commonplace to prove what you could do... Again typical kan double speak that you spew that we train so we dont' have to use it just to keep the ryu ha alive and in tact.......... blah blah blah BS..

Bujinkan guys like yourself that are not able to fight your way out a paper bag are exactly why these arts have become a joke. I just called you and everything you do a total joke given the typical kan bs you are handing out is right out the kan playbook... You are very confused about everything except the shirt which was done in Takamatsu's hand. However, why I have it I have not revealed so keep guessing....

If I am ever in Australia I would be glad to come down and give yet another little 3rd dan little boy a chance to show me what you can't do.. I expect you to last about 1 min or less and 3 mins +/- if you augmented your training in BJJ.

I read your page and it's typical bujinkan with a fancy graphic, lots of techiques, history of how the scrolls where handed down and how you guys changed it with all the Bujinkan ninja hocus pocus... LOL

Originally a Student of Nagato Sensei, and Grandmaster Hatsumi, Wayne Roy has continued to evolve the traditional techniques of old into a dynamic and effective modern art form.

By combining the traditional strategies and tactics of Ninjutsu, and adapting it to deal with todays fighting styles, Sensei Roy has developed a comprehensive martial arts program based on the concepts of movement, with less emphasis on perfecting technique.

So let me see if I have this straight.... LOL You guys created your own ryu ha with the vast knowledge gained in Bujinkan. LOL hahahahahah No wonder why they call you the land down under because your brain is downunder as well....

Again, you have no clue about martial arts, no intelligence, big mouth and the very idea that you think you can judge when you have not stepped into a ring with me is very stupid and typical of a ego lead bujinkan ninja wannabe's.

Now, I am done slapping you around...

P.S. Layoff the corrupting the young minds with your worthless ninja BS.. Post what you like but I have exposed your ninja BS..

Stephen
VIC

Melbourne
Genesis Fitness Lonsdale Street
Level 2/50 Lonsdale St
Melbourne CBD
(Enter via Madamme Brussels Lane)
Thursday 7:00pm - 8:30pm
Instructor: Sensei Chris Parker
Ph: 0433 442 227



Hey Stephen.

Since you are offended by Mr. Parker. I think you missed his words. It's not that you can beat Chris or whatever. It's just that your school is obviously a gendai school based on its training methods. Even Bujinkan is gendai even though is has legitimate Koryu roots. Koryu schools are arts developed pre meiji era, which are maintained in the same manner as the original creator/creators developed. So it's not about who can beat up who. It's about a maintained lineage leading back pre Meiji era Japan.
So lets be generous and say you DID have roots from a Koryu. The way you are training is obviously not in the manner of how "known" Koryu usually look/train. So from the empirical evidence provided. Your school appears to be "gendai" and not "koryu"

This isn't an insult to your school.

[Sanke]

Stephen

I'll be honest with you, I don't have enough experience to really say what is good or bad in terms of skill or how good a system is, so I'm not gonna talk about your video in that regard, but I do know enough about Koryu Bujutsu to say this: What your training is not Koryu.

Honestly, I don't have to be an expert to tell you what you're doing isn't koryu. You merely have to compare the footage you have provided with that of any actual koryu system, and you can see that it simply does not match up.

Koryu, as Tanaka has stated, are any school or system that can be proven to have been formed before the Meiji restoration (so i think that makes it before about 1868, but as i understand it, that's not quite right either). That means that it would have the same attitude as what would have been trained in that period in time, and that is most certainly not reflected in your posts.

But honestly? I barely even need to bother pointing that out, due to your, quite frankly, childish attitude. That proves it more than anything else. Saying things like:



I could train any decent guy 6 months or less and he would wipe the floor with you and your 3rd Dan knowledge LOL.... :)


Not only proves that you clearly don't have the right attitude for koyru training, it proves you barely have the right attitude to be on this forum at all. And really:



No wonder why they call you the land down under because your brain is downunder as well...


I mean, really. Do I even need to say anything? You disagree with one man's posts and so your response is to insult the entire country? Not exactly becoming of a teacher, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, I'm not here to change your mind about any of this. I'm happy where I am training now, and what I train in, and it seems that you are too.
But if you're really going to come on here and debate about why you think your system is legitimate, at least come without the school-yard attitude. It does you no favours.

P.S. Even though it might not say it on the site, I happen to know that Ninjustu Australia group don't use the same ranking system as the Bujinkan. Just FYI.

[MJS]

Admin Note:

Folks,

Before this thread spirals downward anymore than it already has, let me remind everyone of the forum rules, that everyone agreed to upon joining. That said, enough with the personal shots, and posts that could be read as a challenge. For the record, thats the quickest way to get the boot from here, is to make a challenge post, but I suppose everyone knew that already, after reading the rules.

This forum is open to everyone, but we do ask that things maintain a civil tone. If you're here to stir the pot, cause trouble, troll and things of that nature, this isn't the place for you, and you'll soon find your welcome worn out.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

[Chris Parker]

Chris,

Stephen,

First off, I really should just RTM this post of yours (which I have, to let you know), but as the entire basis of it is so far off base, I'm answering to clear up just how little you know what you're talking about with regards to myself here.


I dont have much time for your bujinkan BS as I have been hearing the same old tired crap for 27 years out of many of the people that hold much higher ranks then you with your little 3rd Dan which by the way is worthless. I could train any decent guy 6 months or less and he would wipe the floor with you and your 3rd Dan knowledge LOL.... :)

Okay, you really have no idea where you are, or who you're dealing with here, so a few words to the wise. Martial Talk is the "friendly" discussion board for martial arts, and such comments as these are, shall we say, discourged? Especially when they have little basis other than a bruised ego on your side. Next, I'm not Bujinkan. We split from them over a decade ago, and the highest grade in our organisation is 5th Dan, so look at my 3rd in that light, okay?

But I do have to ask, what do you know of my "third dan knowledge"? I might suggest looking through my past posts if you want to get a better idea of who you're conversing with, I don't think you have a very accurate idea at present at all. Especially when I can look at the clip of your guys (I'm assuming that they have more than 6 months there, particularly the guys in black belts, yeah?), and point out how bad they are (I was really being rather gentle earlier.. I can stop that anytime you like, though....), and how far off their training is.

Oh, and if you've been told the same things about how you're doing things by people of high rank in these arts for 27 years, shouldn't that be a clue...? Just sayin'....


I'm surprised with your big mouth they have not given you a 15th Dan. Why I came along is simple because everything you represent is not Koryu Bujutsu in any fashion, shape, form and you are a typical kan joke. I am sure you are able to trick 13 year olds to train in your verson of ninpo but the big boys out here know that everythign you do with a little resistance WON"T WORK...

Again, not Bujinkan. A cursory look should have told you that. And again, with no knowledge of what we do, or how we train, you're basing this all on what, exactly? For the record, though, we don't accept 13 year olds as students, so you're off there as well....


You are incorrect again when you think you should not test your skills. Contests in Japan were commonplace to prove what you could do... Again typical kan double speak that you spew that we train so we dont' have to use it just to keep the ryu ha alive and in tact.......... blah blah blah BS..

I never said anything about not testing your skills, Stephen, I pointed out that your methods were not Koryu. That's all. As far as contests in Japan, really, I'm not someone you need to educate on history, trust me on that.


Bujinkan guys like yourself that are not able to fight your way out a paper bag are exactly why these arts have become a joke. I just called you and everything you do a total joke given the typical kan bs you are handing out is right out the kan playbook... You are very confused about everything except the shirt which was done in Takamatsu's hand. However, why I have it I have not revealed so keep guessing....

Sigh... not Bujinkan, mate.

I am intrigued by this apparent hatred of the Kans (specifically Bujinkan), as almost your entire technical methods seem to come out of it. No matter what you say, it is completely demonstrable (and has been demonstrated in your own clip) that the basis of what you teach comes from at least one of the Kans - you use the same terminology (which is Ryu-ha specific), you have the same kamae (which is very Ryu-ha specific), you feature the same descriptive terms (Jujutsu/Ninjutsu), you feature the same movement concepts (organisation specific) and more.

So what's the deal there? You are Kan based, there's really no denying it. And you are not Koryu, there is no denying that. That's really all I said, and it's resulted in this? Wow....


If I am ever in Australia I would be glad to come down and give yet another little 3rd dan little boy a chance to show me what you can't do.. I expect you to last about 1 min or less and 3 mins +/- if you augmented your training in BJJ.

Well, I have trained in BJJ, so that'll give me an edge, yeah? But here's a question, what happens if I beat you? What if I beat you in around three minutes? Or in 1 minute?

Or 5 seconds?

What will that mean? Will it mean that I am really training Koryu and you're not? Will it mean that your training isn't based in the Kan's? Will it mean that you apologise for acting like a little child here?

It won't mean any of those things. It'll only mean that one person beat another at one time, and has really nothing to do with the topic at hand, namely that you are not teaching Koryu. Seriously, drop the ego, and grow up. You're not doing yourself any favours with your replies here.


I read your page and it's typical bujinkan with a fancy graphic, lots of techiques, history of how the scrolls where handed down and how you guys changed it with all the Bujinkan ninja hocus pocus... LOL

Originally a Student of Nagato Sensei, and Grandmaster Hatsumi, Wayne Roy has continued to evolve the traditional techniques of old into a dynamic and effective modern art form.

By combining the traditional strategies and tactics of Ninjutsu, and adapting it to deal with todays fighting styles, Sensei Roy has developed a comprehensive martial arts program based on the concepts of movement, with less emphasis on perfecting technique

Oh, dear lord, WE ARE NOT BUJINKAN! Okay? And, for the record, no you didn't read the page properly, as we specifically mention not focusing on "lot's of techniques", there really isn't any "history of how the scrolls were handed down" (that's the correct spelling of "were" there, by the way), and the changes were one of the big things that put us apart from the Bujinkan. So you lose points on reading comprehension there.


So let me see if I have this straight.... LOL You guys created your own ryu ha with the vast knowledge gained in Bujinkan. LOL hahahahahah No wonder why they call you the land down under because your brain is downunder as well....

Are you serious?!? You claim to teach Koryu and mis-use the terminology that badly? No, there is no creation of a new "Ryu-ha", if you're asking that then you have no idea what a Ryu-ha is, how it is created, how it is transmitted, and so on. We have a new organisation, which is a completely different entity. Son, you're just proving again and again that you have no idea about Koryu (or much in the way of martial arts, I might add) whatsoever.

And, again, drop the insults. You're in the wrong place for that.


Again, you have no clue about martial arts, no intelligence, big mouth and the very idea that you think you can judge when you have not stepped into a ring with me is very stupid and typical of a ego lead bujinkan ninja wannabe's.

I have no clue about martial arts? You're the one misusing terminology, and demonstrating a lot of ignorance on this topic.

No intelligence? You have so far completely failed to put forth any real answer or reasoned responce to anything put forth, so that doesn't seem like it's aimed in the right direction there.

A big mouth? Ha, compared to the ego driven personal attacks you've spouted here, which have no basis in the discussion at hand in the first place? Nice.

The idea that I can judge is based on a few things, and what I am judging is nothing to do with "stepping into a ring", it's based on the fact that I do know what I'm talking about, and you're out of excuses, so you've moved it to a hypothetical non-existant arena. This is a strawman, and just shows a lack of real argument on your side.

And, one more time, I am not Bujinkan. Try again.


Now, I am done slapping you around...

Really? That was you "slapping me around"? Sorry, not impressed, mainly as I have no idea how any of that was any more than you stroking your own ego, making you feel that only you know the "real training".


P.S. Layoff the corrupting the young minds with your worthless ninja BS.. Post what you like but I have exposed your ninja BS..

Stephen

Sorry, but what exactly have you "exposed"? My school was not the one being looked at, so there was nothing to expose... and your "exposing of me" was centred around my being Bujinkan (you may have realised by now, but I'm not), whereas my posting was nothing to do with the "Ninjutsu" side of my training, I was posting here as a pratitioner of Koryu, which is separate to the Ninjutsu thing. I train in two separate Koryu, both of which are some of the most well known and most respected Koryu there are (one of which is probably the most respected of all, the other is the school of one of the most famous warriors of Japans history.... see if you can figure them out!).

So, uh, you've exposed what, exactly?


VIC

Melbourne
Genesis Fitness Lonsdale Street
Level 2/50 Lonsdale St
Melbourne CBD
(Enter via Madamme Brussels Lane)
Thursday 7:00pm - 8:30pm
Instructor: Sensei Chris Parker
Ph: 0433 442 227


Finally, while I appreciate the free publicity, posting other members contact details I believe is also against the TOS here, so, uh, might want to rethink your plans of attack from now on.

The issues are as follows:

This thread is in the Koryu Corner forum, therefore it is about Koryu training. Koryu training is very specific, and not what you are doing, so that was stated. In fact, what you are training is based in the Takamatsuden material (X-Kan), and is not Koryu in it's transmission methods and other details. You argued that we didn't know what you actually train in, however the clip provided above is absolute confirmation of the suppositions (the clip is from a link on the MeetUp site, by the way).

You are not teaching Koryu.

You are based in X-Kan material.

You seem to demonstrate quite a bit of anger/hatred against the X-Kan's.

Any claims to the contrary go against all demonstrable evidence.

For absolute confirmation, here is the clip again:

SaYkGCQk-Ic

Compared with a Bujinkan clip:

MWARvKjOloU

Hmm, does that kamae look familiar?

Genbukan clip:

R1GiS9KtHK0

Same initial bow with claps (this is the way it should be done, by the way).


One more time, though, my experience is in both Takamatsuden systems (which is why I can recognise it) and Koryu systems (which is why I can quite easily say that what you are presenting is not Koryu at all, in any way shape or form). And again, none of this is a value judgement, it is simply a statement of fact.... as I said, what you teach may be great, or enjoyable, much loved by those who are involved, but that doesn't make it Koryu, and doesn't stop it being based in X-Kan material.

I'll wait for the apology.

[novamag]

I'm actually appalled at this thread. I have been training in martial arts for 15 years now. Mostly in Filipino styles and American Kenpo. I just started training a couple months ago in the Koryu Bujutsu arts. These forums are setup to share information and inform people that may be interested in studying a particular martial art or furthering their knowledge.

You guys slammed a school before you knew anything about the school. Someone had a simple question whether anyone has heard of the school. You based your opinions on a couple of websites and a short video. If you knew nothing about the school you should have kept your comments to yourself.

I know you may say you are only trying to protect people from true Koryu Bujutsu schools versus frauds. Instead of slamming a school you know nothing about how about educating people on what to look for and what questions to ask. Those of us that know little about Koryu Bujutsu would appreciate that a lot more. As you know the free knowledge is very limited.

Based on the fact that there is very little public knowledge of Koryu Bujutsu. I think it is unfair to slam someone based on a few small pieces you have pulled up on the web about the school. I think this is hardly a full insight on what the school teaches. After all isn't this school doing what other Koryu Bujutsu schools are doing, limited the amount of public knowledge.

I think Stephens comments/attacks where warranted. The actions of some of the people on this thread where extremely disrespectful to him from the start. He initially merely offered anyone interested in finding more out about the school to stop in and take a class. You guys immediately started trying to discredit him and tear him down. I believe each of you would have the same reaction he did.

Maybe next time ask questions about his lineage and background and possibly provide insight into yours. I'm not looking for resumes or I'm better than you scenarios. It would just be more of a service to the rest of the community to have a respectful conversation that will help inform/enlighten everyone.

That's just my two cents and I know for a fact that this is what this forum was designed for because one of my instructors actually stood it up. Everyone will have differencing opinions. That's what makes the world go round. In the end it is all about can you get your point across and walk away knowing you were able to help educate people and further your arts without disrespecting another's opinion.

Respectfully,

Brian Pancia

[Tanaka]

I'm actually appalled at this thread. I have been training in martial arts for 15 years now. Mostly in Filipino styles and American Kenpo. I just started training a couple months ago in the Koryu Bujutsu arts. These forums are setup to share information and inform people that may be interested in studying a particular martial art or furthering their knowledge.

You guys slammed a school before you knew anything about the school. Someone had a simple question whether anyone has heard of the school. You based your opinions on a couple of websites and a short video. If you knew nothing about the school you should have kept your comments to yourself.

I know you may say you are only trying to protect people from true Koryu Bujutsu schools versus frauds. Instead of slamming a school you know nothing about how about educating people on what to look for and what questions to ask. Those of us that know little about Koryu Bujutsu would appreciate that a lot more. As you know the free knowledge is very limited.

Based on the fact that there is very little public knowledge of Koryu Bujutsu. I think it is unfair to slam someone based on a few small pieces you have pulled up on the web about the school. I think this is hardly a full insight on what the school teaches. After all isn't this school doing what other Koryu Bujutsu schools are doing, limited the amount of public knowledge.

I think Stephens comments/attacks where warranted. The actions of some of the people on this thread where extremely disrespectful to him from the start. He initially merely offered anyone interested in finding more out about the school to stop in and take a class. You guys immediately started trying to discredit him and tear him down. I believe each of you would have the same reaction he did.

Maybe next time ask questions about his lineage and background and possibly provide insight into yours. I'm not looking for resumes or I'm better than you scenarios. It would just be more of a service to the rest of the community to have a respectful conversation that will help inform/enlighten everyone.

That's just my two cents and I know for a fact that this is what this forum was designed for because one of my instructors actually stood it up. Everyone will have differencing opinions. That's what makes the world go round. In the end it is all about can you get your point across and walk away knowing you were able to help educate people and further your arts without disrespecting another's opinion.

Respectfully,

Brian Pancia

I think you are reading the wrong thread. No one attacked "Koryu Bujutsu" school.(which is weird to keep calling a school this)

But
They just said it wasn't a Koryu... Which it is not. Then Stephen came on the attack, which in return he was corrected harshly. Not with personal attacks, but actual facts.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Brian and Stephen,

The big reason you are going to catch flak from everyone in particular is in the name of your system ie. Koryu Bujutsu. Koryu as has been explained here are the old systems of Japan predating the Meiji Restoration that have maintained their traditions and training methods to present times. Here is a wikipedia link on Koryu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koryu).

Here is one video of a system that fits and represents the Koryu martial arts in Japan

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQB5Lc1C_a8

It does come down to the fact that by naming a system Koryu Bujutsu it is misleading. The system you are practiticing as stated by others is simply not Koryu!

It may be a great system and you may love practicing it and if that is the case then great. However, it does not change that fact that it is not a Koryu system from ancient Japan and that the name is misleading to people who might not be in the know! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[novamag]

Brian,

Thank you for your response. Now with that said to get this topic back on track if warranted. The original question was has anyone heard of the shool in Michigan. I'm sure people can go to the school and/or call the instructor and find out more info for themselves. However, what would be nice to know is given the fact that there is a strong disbelief they are teaching true Koryu there:

What are some schools in the same areas that people can contact?
What are some questions people should ask schools/instructors they are looking at?
Are there certain qualities/characteristics/desires an individual should poses prior to looking at the ancient Japanese arts?

With everything it will ultimitely come down to what the individual likes the most regardless of style. One style may work for one but not for another. More insigts would be useful.

Respecfully,

Brian Pancia

[Chris Parker]

Right, let's clear a few things up then.


I'm actually appalled at this thread. I have been training in martial arts for 15 years now. Mostly in Filipino styles and American Kenpo. I just started training a couple months ago in the Koryu Bujutsu arts. These forums are setup to share information and inform people that may be interested in studying a particular martial art or furthering their knowledge.

You're appalled? At what, might I ask? I really don't think you've understood what this thread has actually asked, or said. As you say, the majority of your experience isn't in Koryu, and (if I'm reading you right) you are a relatively new student of Stephen's, which means you still have no experience of Koryu. That is, of course, me assuming that by "I just started a couple months ago in the Koryu Bujutsu arts" means that you have started with this group? If not, and you mean that in the last couple of months you have started training in a Koryu, can you please clarify that detail?

Next, what this forum is set up for ("sharing information and informing people that may be interested in studying a particular martial art or furthering their knowledge"), er, what do you think we've done here? We have a group using the name "Koryu Bujutsu" that has nothing to do with actual Koryu training, there was a member that asked (in a forum dedicated to Koryu) about them, we honestly looked at it, and said quite accurately that it is not Koryu. Not that it isn't good, not that it isn't fun, not that it isn't valid or legit, just that it isn't Koryu. That is us sharing our information, insight, experience, knowledge and understanding of this topic. If you don't think it is, what would you class it as?


You guys slammed a school before you knew anything about the school. Someone had a simple question whether anyone has heard of the school. You based your opinions on a couple of websites and a short video. If you knew nothing about the school you should have kept your comments to yourself.

For crying out loud, can you point out the "slamming" that occured before Stephen showed up? Our opinions were based on more than just what we saw on the website, it was also based on, in a number of cases, years of involvement, research, and experience in these arts, knowledge of the hallmarks to look for for a Koryu system, and the hallmarks to look for to definitively show that something isn't Koryu. After all, the original question wasn't if anyone had heard of them, it was asking for any insight into the group... and that is exactly what was provided.

Really, this is like getting a group of Ballroom dancers, schooled in the formal, classical presentation of the dances, showing them some street Latin, and asking them if it's Ballroom. No, it's not. Does that mean it's not dancing? No. Does it mean it's not good fun, and filled with benefits? Not at all. Just that it's not classical Ballroom dancing. Okay? Same thing here. It's claiming to be Koryu, and it just isn't.


I know you may say you are only trying to protect people from true Koryu Bujutsu schools versus frauds. Instead of slamming a school you know nothing about how about educating people on what to look for and what questions to ask. Those of us that know little about Koryu Bujutsu would appreciate that a lot more. As you know the free knowledge is very limited.

You want education on what is Koryu? Do you really want me to rip apart every part of the pictures, the written information, the video, and so on to demonstrate exactly why this group is not Koryu in any way, shape, or form? Really?

But if you're really after some education on what Koryu are (and some clues as to why this group isn't), the following threads are a good starting point:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93854 The Purpose of the Ryu (given to Stephen earlier, you may notice)

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93222 Koryu Practices

Read those, then get back to us.


Based on the fact that there is very little public knowledge of Koryu Bujutsu. I think it is unfair to slam someone based on a few small pieces you have pulled up on the web about the school. I think this is hardly a full insight on what the school teaches. After all isn't this school doing what other Koryu Bujutsu schools are doing, limited the amount of public knowledge.

No, it isn't doing what other Koryu are doing (first off, it's not a Koryu, and doesn't teach Koryu, so saying "what other Koryu Bujutsu schools are doing" is frankly missing the point.... and the term "Koryu Bujutsu" is actually kinda a tell, so you know). Koryu may keep their teachings for their members, but they also very regularly demonstrate themselves to the public (and functions known as Embu, which can range from highly formal to very relaxed affairs), publicise themselves, and are seeking people to continue them. You can get many DVD's, books, articles, websites and so on where there is a lot of information out there.... there's even dedicated magazines to Koryu in Japan!

This type of mentality is common with people who want to be what their image of such training actually is, and they always go overboard! The same thing here, really. We get the same thing over and over again, those who don't actually have the experience or knowledge try to tell actual practitioners how things should be done, while at the same time completely missing the point as to why and how things are done in the first place. Comparing Stephens group with Koryu mentality is like comparing a little kid playing soldier with actual soldiers (the kid always has the soldiers fighting, rather than marching, standing guard, etc). The two are unrelated.


I think Stephens comments/attacks where warranted. The actions of some of the people on this thread where extremely disrespectful to him from the start. He initially merely offered anyone interested in finding more out about the school to stop in and take a class. You guys immediately started trying to discredit him and tear him down. I believe each of you would have the same reaction he did.

Now, really, this isn't a long thread, surely we don't need an actual summing up already? Sigh, no that is not the way it went down. Here's what happened, I remember it like it was typed up in front of me....

We had a member come along, specifically to the Koryu section of the forum, to ask for any insight into a group he had come across. We soon figured out which group he was talking about, and looked into it. We came to the, frankly obvious conclusion, that it was not Koryu, and as that is the focus of this subforum, that is what we focused on. I personally went a little further and identified the origin of the actual group itself.

That was it, really, and the thread stopped.

Then, a month after it had stopped, Stephen turned up. He made references to us being wrong in our assessment, but provided no evidence or example to back up what he was saying. In fact, he started off by saying he and his group leaders were having a laugh about this thread and what we were saying (implying that he thought we were less-than-intelligent to think such things). He then continued to make statements that basically screamed to us "I don't do Koryu, and have no idea what it is", such as the comments about what works or doesn't "against the BIG guys", and some random comment about knowing that what he has is "very rare" (it isn't), and that he knows "where to go, and more importantly where not to go" (although from seeing him move, I wouldn't trust his judgement on such things).

Next was his comment (that you interpret as an open, welcoming invitation) that people should "empty their cup", come down to his group, see what he's presenting, and see how it fits with their training.... which, again, goes completely against the idea of him teaching or even understanding Koryu and what it is. This type of comment is a hallmark again of people who know that they're less-than what they claim, and try to get some sense of ego back by essentially "big-dogging" other people. It's been seen many times before, and it's not impressive in the least.

Finally was his bizarre claim of "We are in no way teaching what the Kan's teach in any fashion", when the terminology, movement, concepts, kamae, striking methods, and more all come directly out of them with no question whatsoever.

I pointed all of this out, including the inconsistencies with his story. He went a little odd then.

His next post was completely off base in regards to myself, and consisted pretty much of nothing but what he seems to have considered a devestating character assasination. The problems are, though, that:
- He was wrong in all of his basic assumptions about me that he was basing these attacks on.
- The attacks were vague, random, and bore no relevance to any part of the discussion at hand.
- The post was littered again with examples that Stephen has no idea whatsoever about Koryu (or about me, it seems).
- Stephen completely avoids any of the issues that have been raised about his group, instead launching attacks on a fictional version of me.

There's a lot more, but really, if you think we were harsh, or his comments were justified, then you really don't want to see me really pull this apart. As I've said, I've been gentle so far.

PS If I was looking at this with a cynical eye, I might note the same spelling mistakes in your posts as Stephens ("where" when it should be "were", for instance), I may also note that it takes a day or two to be able to post here once you register so you can be verified, which would put you back at Stephen's first post when you signed up, and that you have joined this forum specifically, it seems, to complain about one thread where your new school is being discussed, despite having much more experience in very unrelated systems..... hmm, make of that what you will.....


Maybe next time ask questions about his lineage and background and possibly provide insight into yours. I'm not looking for resumes or I'm better than you scenarios. It would just be more of a service to the rest of the community to have a respectful conversation that will help inform/enlighten everyone.

We had no need to ask about his lineage, it was painfully obvious that it wasn't Koryu, and it was X-kan based. As for resume's, I did say straight away when Stephen came in that I train in two Koryu systems as well as X-Kan material... and anything disrespectful did not start from our side, let's be clear on that.


That's just my two cents and I know for a fact that this is what this forum was designed for because one of my instructors actually stood it up. Everyone will have differencing opinions. That's what makes the world go round. In the end it is all about can you get your point across and walk away knowing you were able to help educate people and further your arts without disrespecting another's opinion.

Well, I gotta tell you, I was involved in the creation of this subforum, and know for a fact why it was created. And it was to give people direction and information on actual Koryu training, not people who don't have a clue but claim it anyway.

And, while I'm at it, Stephen's opinion never entered into it (frankly, the only "opinion" he has proffered seems to be a rather low one of the Bujinkan), we were (and are) dealing with the facts.

Stephen's group is not Koryu.

Those training there are not training in Koryu.

Stephen doesn't know or understand what Koryu is.

There's really nothing more to it than this.


Respectfully,


Brian Pancia

I hope so, Brian.

Hmm, it seems you posted something else while I was posting this, might as well answer that while I'm here, yeah?


Brian,

Thank you for your response. Now with that said to get this topic back on track if warranted. The original question was has anyone heard of the shool in Michigan. I'm sure people can go to the school and/or call the instructor and find out more info for themselves. However, what would be nice to know is given the fact that there is a strong disbelief they are teaching true Koryu there:

The topic is insight into the MeetUp group, from a Koryu perspective. In that light, the topic is done. They are not Koryu, therefore they have no relevance from a Koryu perspective. Oh, and it's not a "strong belief", by the way, it is very simply that they are not teaching Koryu. They are not the first to not know or understand what Koryu is, and think they are doing it while actually being the exact opposite of it, and they won't be the last, but it is very easy to recognise once you know what you're looking at.


What are some schools in the same areas that people can contact?

Here's one: Tamiya Ryu Iaijutsu, a Koryu sword drawing system. http://www.ustamiyaryu.org/

Koryu training involves learning a specific school, or system, refered to as a Ryu. This Ryu is taught primarily via kata training, where the techniques are drilled the same way over and over again, the way the art says they are done. The most important thing is that the Ryu is preserved and consistent.

Then again, as I said, Stephen is far from the only one misusing these (and many other) terms. Here's another site I found when looking for Koryu in Michigan: http://www.seishinkan.com/

The number of gigantic errors in terminology, expression, and so forth means that I can safely say this is a similar type of idea, thinking they know about Koryu while at the same time having no real idea at all (for example: the term Sogo Bujutsu simply refers to a classification of a particular type of Ryu, it is not a martial art itself the way the site claims it to be).


What are some questions people should ask schools/instructors they are looking at?

In terms of what you should ask the instructor, well, you should ask for a basic history of the Ryu, where in Japan it comes from, any historical usage that might be known, and where the instructor recieved their training from. For a Koryu, typically an instructor will be very senior in the Ryu, and will have the correct documentation in it from the representative head, or be able to refer to them very easily. Other than that, do your homework. Go to sites like www.koryu.com (http://www.koryu.com) and see if it's listed there (many Koryu taught in the West are). With some Ryu, there are a number of branches of them, so you can ascertain which branch it is you are applying to join (important point: You do not "train", or "learn" a Koryu, you join it in order to preserve it. We'll get to that in a second).


Are there certain qualities/characteristics/desires an individual should poses prior to looking at the ancient Japanese arts?

The single best article to answer that has been posted here many times, one more won't hurt.... Read this over and over and you may see what we're getting at here:

http://shutokukan.org/join_the_ryu.html


With everything it will ultimitely come down to what the individual likes the most regardless of style. One style may work for one but not for another. More insigts would be useful.

Very correct. The Koryu aren't for everyone, they're not even for anything like the majority.... or even the minority, it seems! They can be very demanding, and you (the student) are not the focus, or the important thing when it comes to the Ryu. Most people who go for this quasi-Koryu approach frankly are not really interested in the realities of Koryu, or aware of them, which is fine, but it doesn't mean that they can go around calling themselves Koryu.

Understand?


Respecfully,

Brian Pancia

For your viewing pleasure, though, here are a few Koryu clips:

cQB5Lc1C_a8 Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, probably the most respected of all Koryu...

pSxsSqX0d2o Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu again, this time a more current video (the first was from the 70's). Go to about 6:30, and check the movements against the first clip.

Z7LDXpAohjQ Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, founded by possibly Japan's most famous of all it's warriors....

EynoRgKpBkc Takeuchi Ryu, believed to be the oldest Jujutsu system in Japan, and the source school for many others.

sVbd4x4EdUg Toda-ha Buko Ryu, a school centred around the Naginata.

GzTCQk2KHyQ Yagyu Shingan Ryu, found in a few branches

1-O-KNKJMLA Shinmuso Hayashizaki Ryu Iai, very interesting and specialist swords used.

eeki2y-r-Dc Sosuishi Ryu Kumi Uchi, their Jujutsu syllabus

_uYl6Pp4vdc Sosuishi Ryu Koshi no Mawari, the sword methods of this system. These two clips show how the Ryu-ha is organised (similar to the first Katori clip)

I can keep going for years that way, by the way

But, to constrast, here are a few quasi-Koryu groups. See if you can see the differences:

XCbmNhiT3fc Neji Gekken Ryu, modern, invented system.

zzgdWRcqZvQ Cary Nemeroff... claims an old lineage but made it up in about 2001. This, by the way, is very bad....

XfahVJjmgEo Or, for the worst of it, this group steals the kata of legit Koryu and tries to pass them off as their own. There is a special place in Budo hell for these types......

[jks9199]

Regarding koryu bujutsu in general rather than the specific club/school here, this is probably the best site for them: Martial Arts of Japan:Koryu.com (http://www.koryu.com/index.html). Within that site, Diane Skoss has provided this overview of koryu arts (http://www.koryu.com/koryu.html):

Koryu literally means "old flow" and is used in Japanese to refer to old styles, schools, or traditions (not necessarily only in the martial arts). The simplest English translation of this term is "classical." Bujutsu is one of several Japanese terms meaning martial arts or techniques (I won't get into the whole jutsu/do issue here; there are differences between "do" arts and "jutsu" arts but they are not as large as many people imagine, in my opinion). So, putting the two together, you get "classical martial arts" (of Japan).
This leads to the next question: What precisely is a Japanese classical martial art? Unfortunately, it is impossible to provide a precise definition. Some folks use the date of 1876, when the act prohibiting the wearing of swords (Haitorei) was promulgated, as a dividing line between classical and modern martial arts. Others prefer to use the term "koryu bujutsu" only for those arts developed for actual use on the battlefield and thus reserve the term for sixteenth century and earlier traditions.
Classical traditions (however you date them) do have several defining characteristics. They were developed by and for the bushi, or warrior class, and they have some sort of lineage that runs back through each headmaster or menkyo kaiden (or equivalent) to the founder of the tradition. This is the "stream" of the tradition; although there may be branches (in some traditions each generation was expected to found their own "sub-tradition"), in general the structure is one of a single "flow" from one (usually) head instructor through students to the next generation. The student-teacher relationship is central to transmission of techniques, and these techniques were initially designed to ensure victory on the battlefield. Systems that don't exhibit all these characteristics are quite likely not koryu.


I encourage reading the whole article -- and there are many others that are interesting on the site.

In short, I can't address the usability or functionality of Steve's Koryu Bujutsu training group. I have no real information about where he learned, nor have I got anything but the little bit of information here to assess. I've seen plenty of bad websites for good clubs and good training... But I'm confident it's not true Japanese koryu martial arts.

[novamag]

I would like to thank everyone that has responded to the post with some useful information around Koryu Bujutsu. Some of it I have already seen and read through and others I will definitely add to my library.

Even though I just joined and posted to this post I have followed martial talk since the beginning. Mostly around the Filipino arts. I have found a lot of great information here. I do apologize if I offended anyone. That was certainly not my intention.

As for my quest to find out more about Koryo Bujutsu it will continue. I believe that there is a distinct difference between learning the history around certain arts and actually learning the techniques behind the arts. I’m fascinated by the history and think it is important, but for me I'm not concerned about what you call it as long as it works for me and I enjoy it. I've seen these types of discussions in other arts especially when you get to the less common ones like Koryo Bujutsu arts or the Filipino arts. It is like religion or politics and people are sensitive to their opinions.

I do wish everyone the best on their journeys. With most of us here, martial arts has become a way of life and not just a class we show up to a couple times a week. Everyone’s path is different even if at certain points they cross.

Mr. Parker,

While some of the information you provided is interesting your delivery I find offensive. This is just my opinion and doesn't really justify any further long winded posts. Just like you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Whether we agree or not is totally irrelevant. With respect I will leave it at that.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would like to thank everyone that has responded to the post with some useful information around Koryu Bujutsu. Some of it I have already seen and read through and others I will definitely add to my library.

Even though I just joined and posted to this post I have followed martial talk since the beginning. Mostly around the Filipino arts. I have found a lot of great information here. I do apologize if I offended anyone. That was certainly not my intention.

As for my quest to find out more about Koryo Bujutsu it will continue. I believe that there is a distinct difference between learning the history around certain arts and actually learning the techniques behind the arts. I’m fascinated by the history and think it is important, but for me I'm not concerned about what you call it as long as it works for me and I enjoy it. I've seen these types of discussions in other arts especially when you get to the less common ones like Koryo Bujutsu arts or the Filipino arts. It is like religion or politics and people are sensitive to their opinions.

I do wish everyone the best on their journeys. With most of us here, martial arts has become a way of life and not just a class we show up to a couple times a week. Everyone’s path is different even if at certain points they cross.

Mr. Parker,

While some of the information you provided is interesting your delivery I find offensive. This is just my opinion and doesn't really justify any further long winded posts. Just like you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Whether we agree or not is totally irrelevant. With respect I will leave it at that.

As long as you understand that the system you are currently studying ie. Koryu Bujutsu is a modern system and not a Koryu art of Japan. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif The term or name of the system is misleading! Also understand that those practitioner's that do study a traditional Japanese martial art will find it offensive that someone named their system Koryu Bujutsu! Unfortunately it just was not a good decision for the long run! Not much you can do about it but...... just expect to catch some flak and well people will pick it apart here on the internet! Just sayin...... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Chris Parker]

Hi Brian,


I would like to thank everyone that has responded to the post with some useful information around Koryu Bujutsu. Some of it I have already seen and read through and others I will definitely add to my library.

Glad you could get something out of this.


Even though I just joined and posted to this post I have followed martial talk since the beginning. Mostly around the Filipino arts. I have found a lot of great information here. I do apologize if I offended anyone. That was certainly not my intention.

Then let's get things straight, shall we?

This thread had a few observations of Stephen's group, not opinions, observations. Stephen then resurrected it a bit over a month later and made some rather odd and easily countered comments, all of which supported our observations that he is not teaching Koryu. That was pointed out to him, with more observation and other evidence from Stephen's training group itself, and his responce was to reply with a frankly baseless series of attacks against myself with absolutely no connection to the discussion at hand. You then turn up pretty much immediately and defend his attacks, with little to no relevant knowledge of the subject.

The things you claim are in this thread are not seen by anyone else. When asked to point them out, you have not done so. If you had turned up and said "Hey, I train with Stephen, can you tell me what you mean by saying he's not teaching Koryu, cause I don't understand?", then you would have been recieved better. But instead you lectured us on our handling of a topic you don't know.

Now tell me, how was I supposed to take that?

For the record, though, I do accept your apology.


As for my quest to find out more about Koryo Bujutsu it will continue. I believe that there is a distinct difference between learning the history around certain arts and actually learning the techniques behind the arts. I’m fascinated by the history and think it is important, but for me I'm not concerned about what you call it as long as it works for me and I enjoy it. I've seen these types of discussions in other arts especially when you get to the less common ones like Koryo Bujutsu arts or the Filipino arts. It is like religion or politics and people are sensitive to their opinions.

Continuing to learn about Koryu is great, and certainly encouraged. Really, that's what this subforum is for. But here's the thing; the history is one of the things that makes it Koryu, being concerned about it "working" for you is not.

The naming of a system "Koryu" means something. Same as naming a system "Ninjutsu", or "Karate", or even "Samurai martial arts". These words have specific meanings and implications, and those that are serious about these things will always pick up on their misuse.


I do wish everyone the best on their journeys. With most of us here, martial arts has become a way of life and not just a class we show up to a couple times a week. Everyone’s path is different even if at certain points they cross.

No one really argues this point, and honestly I'm not sure why it's needing to be mentioned here. This really isn't a case of "well, they just have a different approach", it's a case of Stephen claiming to be something he's not, whether through ignorance, lack of understanding, or knowingly.


Mr. Parker,

While some of the information you provided is interesting your delivery I find offensive. This is just my opinion and doesn't really justify any further long winded posts. Just like you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Whether we agree or not is totally irrelevant. With respect I will leave it at that.

I'm going to suggest re-reading the thread, then, as I've really been incredibly gentle, and kept opinion out of it, sticking to observation and responce to comments (including yours). Honestly, if you've been offended by my delivery, then all it tells me is that my posts struck an emotional cord in you (most likely due to your connection to Stephen and this group), as I was rather deliberately avoiding being offensive the way Stephen was towards me.

When it comes to my "long-winded" posting style, well, you're new here.... I tend to try to put as much as I feel is relevant in each post, so any "long-winded" ones are that way due to what they're answering, and both Stephens and your posts required quite a bit of correction and clarification. And agreeing or not is, once more, besides the point, as I am stating facts, not giving opinions. If you don't know the topic, arguing with those that do and then saying "whether we agree or not" is frankly irrelevant. Stay, learn, ask questions, but recognise who is answering, and take things in that light, not the emotional responce you have so far.

Oh, and Stephen? I've noticed you here reading the thread over the last day or so.... still waiting for that apology.....

[novamag]

Mr. Parker,

Do you not stop. The apology was not directed toward you but the group. If you look at my posts I never tried to discredit the information provided by anyone. I was pointing out my objections towards the overall tone of the thread and I have tried to do it respectfully. You have tried to slash down everything that goes against your postings and to bring up childish things like spelling errors. Instead of just sticking to the facts. Your posts are littered with jabs and personal insults. Frankly I have very little respect for you and I could care less on what your opinion is of me. Does anyone owe you an apology? Absolutely not. Why should they? Are you man enough to admit your own wrong doings and do the same? Probably not. What I do expect is another useless post littered with jabs, personal insults, videos from youtube, and a couple articles on the web.

Now you are curious about my background and whether I train with Steven or not. Just like you can do a google search on all the links and youtube videos you can certainly google my name. I'm sure you already have. My answer to you is if I have very little respect for you why would I answer your questions?

I fully expect you to respond with more personal jabs and insults. It is what is in your nature to do, so please don't hold back on my account. This will be my last post to this forum, but I do look forward to reading your response. I was even thinking of littering my post with spelling errors just to give you additional ammo. Your responses are very entertaining.

[Chris Parker]

Mr. Parker,

Oh, boy, this'll be fun....


Do you not stop.

No, not often when such things continue.


The apology was not directed toward you but the group.

Really? Let's check, shall we?


I do apologize if I offended anyone. (post 21 here)

So that looks to me that you were apologising to anyone who you may have offended by lecturing those who, frankly, know a lot better than you. I actually thought you may be showing some form of decency and it, if not directly refering to me, at least included me. Oh, well.


If you look at my posts I never tried to discredit the information provided by anyone.

Really? From your very first post here:


I'm actually appalled at this thread...


...You guys slammed a school before you knew anything about the school. Someone had a simple question whether anyone has heard of the school. You based your opinions on a couple of websites and a short video. If you knew nothing about the school you should have kept your comments to yourself...



....I think Stephens comments/attacks where warranted. The actions of some of the people on this thread where extremely disrespectful to him from the start. He initially merely offered anyone interested in finding more out about the school to stop in and take a class. You guys immediately started trying to discredit him and tear him down. I believe each of you would have the same reaction he did.

So your very first post here was to say that those commenting on the validity of Stephens group as a Koryu group didn't have enough information, and that's not trying to discredit the information provided? And it started by saying how "appalled" you were at the thread (that you were in no way involved in to begin with) in the first place, which immediately puts a negative spin on anything you said about our comments? But you never "tried to discredit"? Right....


I was pointing out my objections towards the overall tone of the thread and I have tried to do it respectfully.

Respectfully by telling us that you were appalled at the presentation of information by people who know what they're talking about, as it goes against the marketing of Stephen's group? Then following that by ignoring the one person who was providing more information than anyone else in the thread? Seriously, that doesn't sound like respect, it sounds like an agenda.


You have tried to slash down everything that goes against your postings and to bring up childish things like spelling errors.

Context is everything, son.

From Stephen:


I read your page and it's typical bujinkan with a fancy graphic, lots of techiques, history of how the scrolls where handed down and how you guys changed it with all the Bujinkan ninja hocus pocus... LOL

Then from you:


I think Stephens comments/attacks where warranted.

My point wasn't that you made a spelling error, that happens to all of us, it was that, remarkably, within a day of Stephen blowing his credibility with his vitriolic post, you turn up, and immediately rush to his defence.... and have incredibly similar posting styles, very similar vocabulary and syntax, even to the point of making the same grammatical error! As I said, if I was being cynical, I'd say you're just a sock puppet for Stephen, a second account for the same user. Your inability to read the thread correctly (Tanaka, in his very first responce to you, did say he didn't think you read the same thread we did) actually fits this, by the way....


Instead of just sticking to the facts.

I have provided nothing but facts, son. There has been no opinion that I have proffered, only observation and fact. I could say just how bad I think Stephen is, based on the video, but instead chose to only point out the errors and displayed examples of poor technique and ability present, rather than conjecture into the rest of his training and teaching time.


Your posts are littered with jabs and personal insults.

Oh, for the love of truth and generosity, find me one personal insult that I have typed! And, when you don't find any, contrast it with the post below from Stephen directed towards me... .pay particular attention to the bolded section (I have kept the entire post save the address and contact details of mine posted at the end).


Chris,

I dont have much time for your bujinkan BS as I have been hearing the same old tired crap for 27 years out of many of the people that hold much higher ranks then you with your little 3rd Dan which by the way is worthless. I could train any decent guy 6 months or less and he would wipe the floor with you and your 3rd Dan knowledge LOL.... :)

I'm surprised with your big mouth they have not given you a 15th Dan. Why I came along is simple because everything you represent is not Koryu Bujutsu in any fashion, shape, form and you are a typical kan joke. I am sure you are able to trick 13 year olds to train in your verson of ninpo but the big boys out here know that everythign you do with a little resistance WON"T WORK...

You are incorrect again when you think you should not test your skills. Contests in Japan were commonplace to prove what you could do... Again typical kan double speak that you spew that we train so we dont' have to use it just to keep the ryu ha alive and in tact.......... blah blah blah BS..

Bujinkan guys like yourself that are not able to fight your way out a paper bag are exactly why these arts have become a joke. I just called you and everything you do a total joke given the typical kan bs you are handing out is right out the kan playbook... You are very confused about everything except the shirt which was done in Takamatsu's hand. However, why I have it I have not revealed so keep guessing....

If I am ever in Australia I would be glad to come down and give yet another little 3rd dan little boy a chance to show me what you can't do.. I expect you to last about 1 min or less and 3 mins +/- if you augmented your training in BJJ.

I read your page and it's typical bujinkan with a fancy graphic, lots of techiques, history of how the scrolls where handed down and how you guys changed it with all the Bujinkan ninja hocus pocus... LOL

Originally a Student of Nagato Sensei, and Grandmaster Hatsumi, Wayne Roy has continued to evolve the traditional techniques of old into a dynamic and effective modern art form.

By combining the traditional strategies and tactics of Ninjutsu, and adapting it to deal with todays fighting styles, Sensei Roy has developed a comprehensive martial arts program based on the concepts of movement, with less emphasis on perfecting technique.

So let me see if I have this straight.... LOL You guys created your own ryu ha with the vast knowledge gained in Bujinkan. LOL hahahahahah No wonder why they call you the land down under because your brain is downunder as well....

Again, you have no clue about martial arts, no intelligence, big mouth and the very idea that you think you can judge when you have not stepped into a ring with me is very stupid and typical of a ego lead bujinkan ninja wannabe's.

Now, I am done slapping you around...

P.S. Layoff the corrupting the young minds with your worthless ninja BS.. Post what you like but I have exposed your ninja BS..

Stephen

Hmm, that was nearly the entire post.... funny that.


Frankly I have very little respect for you and I could care less on what your opinion is of me.

My opinion of you has never entered into this, but if you must know, I worry about your ability to read properly....


Does anyone owe you an apology? Absolutely not.

See the above post from Stephen and tell me I'm not owed an apology. Here's a clue, if you still say no, then you owe me one too.....


Why should they?

See above.


Are you man enough to admit your own wrong doings and do the same? Probably not.

Point them out. Seriously, point them out. Point out where I insulted anyone, where I gave bad information, where I didn't back anything up (I may note you haven't backed up anything, or answered any question put forth.... ), or so on. I may not have been forgiving with Stephen, but there is no rule that I needed to be. And I really have been very gentle.


What I do expect is another useless post littered with jabs, personal insults, videos from youtube, and a couple articles on the web.

Try again, son. Most of the links I provided were to other threads here that answered your questions (see, I answered what you asked!), in the majority of which I was a major contributor to the information provided, not articles on the web. The Dave Lowry one was the only real article I linked.

The websites and you-tube clips were, surprise surprise, to answer your questions.

Your welcome.


Now you are curious about my background and whether I train with Steven or not. Just like you can do a google search on all the links and youtube videos you can certainly google my name. I'm sure you already have. My answer to you is if I have very little respect for you why would I answer your questions?

No, I haven't googled your name, but I may do that now. Honestly, I'm more convinced that you and "Stephen" are the same person, for a range of reasons. As to why you would answer my questions? Well, let's see, it's a discussion forum, I've answered yours, it gives us an idea as to what information you already possess (correct or otherwise), it shows a willingness to actually discuss things, and a few other reasons. But if you can't be bothered....


I fully expect you to respond with more personal jabs and insults. It is what is in your nature to do, so please don't hold back on my account.

Again, find me these insults that I apparently posted. The only insults in this thread are from Stephen, and these veiled ones from you.

And son, I don't insult, I debate, argue, instruct, educate, inform, and converse. Insults are the domain of someone who has no argument.


This will be my last post to this forum, but I do look forward to reading your response. I was even thinking of littering my post with spelling errors just to give you additional ammo. Your responses are very entertaining.

Glad to entertain you, but frankly you're not looking like you'll be a huge loss. Off you go.

[Bob Hubbard]

Gents, behave.

Thank you.

[yorkshirelad]

When it comes to my "long-winded" posting style, well, you're new here.... I tend to try to put as much as I feel is relevant in each post,

QTF! Some advice for you, when Chris types up one of his Tolstoyesque posts, grad a sandwich, a cup of tea and a few chocie biscuits, get yourself comfy, and read away. It's always better to prepare first.

[yorkshirelad]

I would like to thank everyone that has responded to the post with some useful information around Koryu Bujutsu.

This is the thing, what you refer to as Koryu Bujutsu, is not Koryu Bujutsu and calling it Koryu Bujutsu is misleading. Now, I don't know if the creators of the system you train in understood how misleading the name is, but it is non the less.
Maybe if the creators of this art had called it Gendai Bujutsu or Modern Bujutsu, or this discussion was not in 'Koryu corner', there would be no controversy, but refering to your art as Koryu is similar to calling an apple an orange, they are both fruit, but they're not the same and calling one the other is misleading.

[Saitama Steve]

I lived in Japan for a relatively short time, (A little over a decade) do koryū and have licences in several ryūha. I have experience in a number of ryūha that are comprehensive martial arts (sōgō bujutsu) as well as ryuha that specialize in only one discipline (i.e. Koryū jūjutsu or kenjutsu) I still go back to Japan twice a year to train with my teachers to make sure that there is quality control in the ryuha that I instruct abroad. I'm actually in Japan at the moment training in my chosen ryūha.

After reading through this thread, and especially after viewing the video clip of "koryu bujutsu" posted by Chris Parker on post #9, it is without a doubt that what was being demonstrated was not koryū jūjutsu in any way, shape or form. The techniques may have been taken from some form of koryū, but there is an apparent lack of grounding in many areas; Reihō - Doing a Shintō bow as otagaini-rei is a big no-no; It should only be performed to the kamidana. The orishiki rei in the kata (kneeling rei) - Wasn't very uniformed either.

The taijutsu/jūjutsu demonstrated were almost textbook X-kan techniques, even down to the hand formation of the shutō-uchi.

What was demonstrated on that youtube clip was definately not koryū bujutsu at all. And no, I'm not and was never a member of the X-kans, however I have seen and researched enough, alongside having friends in the above organizations to have a cursory knowledge about the Takamatsu-den arts.

[Supra Vijai]

Wow... this thread has been awesomely entertaining. I won't post what I originally wanted to as not 1 but 2 moderators have already stepped in and said to behave/not issue challenges. A couple of stand out points if I may? For the record I don't train in a Koryu system, I never have and have never claimed to. Any exposure to Koryu I may have is via youtube, threads on MT and talking to Mr. Parker so hopefully I'm not off base with my questions/comments.

Post 8 - Ad hominem! Textbook examples of logical fallacies littered throughout. Being saved as a text file on my laptop though in case I ever need a good laugh while at work or uni... Almost drove off the road from laughing so hard on the way home from training tonight as another student read it out loud

Post 10 - The video clip: is it just me or is the ukemi somewhat... lacking? I know my ukemi could stand a lot of improvement but really? Where are the breakfalls? The "head hunter" round house was GOLD though :D

Post 19 - This one's for you Mr. Parker... they really tried to pass off Katori kata as their own? How have they not all been killed in their sleep (or with some tea) by ninja assassins?? I'd hate to see the area of Budo hell reserved for that kind of sacrilege...

[Koryu Rich]

The taijutsu/jūjutsu demonstrated were almost textbook X-kan techniques, even down to the hand formation of the shutō-uchi.

What was demonstrated on that youtube clip was definately not koryū bujutsu at all. And no, I'm not and was never a member of the X-kans, however I have seen and researched enough, alongside having friends in the above organizations to have a cursory knowledge about the Takamatsu-den arts.

Agreed Steve.

The whole thing screams x-kan influenced and the attitude shown by certain people representing that Dojo is appalling for anyone who claims to be linked to a Koryu.

Yes everyone has their faults, we all make mistakes, and nobody is perfect but you bloody well make sure your conduct isn't unbecoming and doesn't reflect poorly on your "family".

[Himura Kenshin]

There is nothing listed in anything about them on-line that indicates that there is any koryu school or instructor involvement at all. My opinion is that it is a group of folks that like the idea of training in a koryu art far more than the reality of actually searching out and joining a koryu school. They have no real idea what the koryu really are, or how totally different what they are doing is from actual koryu training.



I too get this impression.

[Himura Kenshin]

...apparently I should have read the whole thing before agreeing with a comment that I thought wouldn't have actually been backed up by the hateful attacks on Chris and any whom seem to agree with him.

I doubt these people will apologize. Their egos are injured and wounded pride hurts more than any other wound.

But Chris does deserve an apology, as despite the constant attacks on his character he has managed to keep what others on the internet freely surrender.

Integrity.

[Chris Parker]

Aw, shucks.....

[Grendel308]

Chris my dear, I have to find you a forum where you get to take the gloves off. You are far far too politic with these 'people', . . . . yahhh, I'm Not calling them men.

Lori

[gregtca]

HEY,
i live down under , so leave Australia alone you w****r,

greg

[Sanke]

HEY,
i live down under , so leave Australia alone you w****r,

greg

You're a little late to the party, but I'm with you on that one ;)

[Stealthy]

I think much better titles for the knock off Koryu schools would be to draw on Historical Japanese Provincial names for inspiration, you know, something like "Tosa Ryu Bujutsu".

Much more appropriate, don't you agree?

[Supra Vijai]

I think much better titles for the knock off Koryu schools would be to draw on Historical Japanese Provincial names for inspiration, you know, something like "Tosa Ryu Bujutsu".

Much more appropriate, don't you agree?

Maybe but Stealthy, that implies a knowledge of Japan, the culture, the history and in some cases, the actual art!

Surely if you had all of that, one would have enough respect for it all and wouldn't start a "knock off" Koryu?...

[Sanke]

Maybe but Stealthy, that implies a knowledge of Japan, the culture, the history and in some cases, the actual art!

Surely if you had all of that, one would have enough respect for it all and wouldn't start a "knock off" Koryu?...

Yeah, the kind of people who make these 'knock off' systems really wouldn't be the type to have enough knowledge to cone up with a name like that.
And really, why would they?
Anyone who's going to examine a system closely enough to find out how legitimate it is, isn't going to be fooled by a fancy name. It wouldn't hold up for long anyway.
The people who would be drawn in probably don't really care what it's called, so long as they can say they train in a super secret, ancient martial art, that could totally kick your art's ass.

[Koryu82]

Hi everyone.. First and foremost I am glad I found a discussion group that could possibly help me in finding some training in a Koryu martial art. I currently reside in Virginia. I have bounced around from Dojo to Dojo in search of something not really knowing what I am in search of. I have done a good deal of research on Taijutsu and found I am torn between the Jinenkan and the Genbukan organization's. Any feed back on these two? Also does any one know whom, if any one that is training these arts in Virginia specifically Richmond and surrounding areas( I am looking for true Kobudo, nothing watered down). Any help is greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Christan Smith

[Chris Parker]

Hi Christian,

This really should be in a separate thread, as this one is specifically about a certain group, but we'll see how we go here answering your question anyway.

First things first, the Jinenkan and Genbukan are both related organisations, coming originally from the Bujinkan, and neither are Koryu (although the Ryu-ha that make up their teachings are, with some controversy). Each will have their own particular approach, so really the only thing to do is to attend both classes and see which one feels better to you (if either).

But to deal with the other aspect you bring up, "I am looking for true Kobudo, nothing watered down", I might ask, first off, if you are aware of what a true old system is like, then what it is you are looking for. Many people come along to forums such as this, or to classes, and have a rather romanticised image of these arts, which is rather removed from reality. If you can answer those, then we may be able to narrow things down (but, for the record, I am unaware of any Koryu system in Richmond, Virginia, and google only gave an X-Kan group, although they don't say which Kan they are with... I'd guess originally Bujinkan).

[pgsmith]

Closest koryu that I know of to Richmond is a Mugai ryu dojo in Stafford.