Getting my fiance' to learn self defense...

[Cruentus]

I know a similar thread was introduced about "getting a wife interested..." but my situation is a bit more serious.

I would love for my Fiance' to be genuinely interested in Martial Arts, but she isn't. This doesnt bother me.

My issue is that she works in Detroit, parks in a parking garage, and frequently works past 6pm. To top this off, she is fairly petite and attractive, and tends to attract attention with her looks.

I feel that she needs some protection. I am thinking of getting her a tazer that looks like a cell phone, and training her to use it. I'd like to train her more, though. The problem I have is that she is very apathetic about the whole thing. My class is a huge turn off for women because it is mostly men between ages 19 and 33, and we all focus on combative arts. Although a class like this would be the most effective way for a woman to learn self defense, it is definatily a school of "hard knocks." I would teach her privately, of course, if I could just get her more interested.

I read statistics, I hear news stories, and I would never forgive myself if something ever happend to her, period. Take it to another level where if I hadn't at least tought her what I could and something happend to her, you would have to put me in a padded room. I'd completely lose it.

So suggestions please? Especially from some of our women MT members.

Thank you.

[KenpoTess]

Hi Paul,

It's difficult to force people to face reality until it hits them smack in the face. You're in a tough situation if your fiancee' doesn't want to involve herself with protecting herself. Most people who carry themselves confidently and with purpose aren't targeted as victims, but that isn't always so, especially in areas such as parking garages and traveling alone, the monsters don't care .. they just take.. without regard to anything but themselves.

I'm sure there must be other loved ones of your male counterparts that would benefit some training.. what if you offered a women's class, without all the testosterone working out around them? Using their own weapons they have on hand. car keys, purses, hair spray.. etc. Most women feel strange about carrying a weapon, (not me but that's just me:) but if they know how to wield a set of keys into their attackers eyes, how to be aware of their environment, carrying a pair of sneakers with them and changing into them before leaving the office, women in High heels baffle me~!!!

I wish you the best, people who are innocent are the ones that get hurt, that old adage.. ignorance is Bliss is so wrong..

Tess

[Disco]

Paul, I would suggest subterfuge. Find another school that has just a ladies class. Invite her to go for a simple ride with you and during the ride, make an excuse to pay a visit to this school while the ladies class is in session. Put tape over your mouth and say nothing, just watch for a while. It will either perk her interest or not. Let her decide she wants to do it. I know it will be hard to not try to interject your opinions, but DON'T. This time silence is golden. Give it a try, could'nt hurt...........
:asian:

[IsshinryuKarateGirl]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
Hi Paul,

It's difficult to force people to face reality until it hits them smack in the face. You're in a tough situation if your fiancee' doesn't want to involve herself with protecting herself. Most people who carry themselves confidently and with purpose aren't targeted as victims, but that isn't always so, especially in areas such as parking garages and traveling alone, the monsters don't care .. they just take.. without regard to anything but themselves.

I'm sure there must be other loved ones of your male counterparts that would benefit some training.. what if you offered a women's class, without all the testosterone working out around them? Using their own weapons they have on hand. car keys, purses, hair spray.. etc. Most women feel strange about carrying a weapon, (not me but that's just me:) but if they know how to wield a set of keys into their attackers eyes, how to be aware of their environment, carrying a pair of sneakers with them and changing into them before leaving the office, women in High heels baffle me~!!!

I wish you the best, people who are innocent are the ones that get hurt, that old adage.. ignorance is Bliss is so wrong..

Tess

I couldn't agree more. I am also a female in the MAs and one of the reasons why I started in the MAs was to protect myself in those types of situations. I like the idea of a Women's self defense class using things that they would normally be carrying on them. I'll have to suggest that to my teachers. We don't have a Women's Self Defense class and it seems like a great thing to have. As for the weapon, I also wouldn't feel strange about it, but if all else fails, boot to groin!!:btg: I know it's not all the time you have something to attack with.

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by PAUL
I would love for my Fiance' to be genuinely interested in Martial Arts, but she isn't. This doesnt bother me.

...

My class is a huge turn off for women because it is mostly men between ages 19 and 33, and we all focus on combative arts.

IMO, most of the MA schools are a turn-off for women because they are so macho. That's why the whole Fitness Kickboxing thing became so big, it combined aerobics classes with martial arts moves. Look at those classes; they're almost all women.

So, to solve the problem, you need to have something that contains less testosterone, but still gets the method across. Kickboxing tends to be a good start to get women in the door. After that, you can get her involved in some self-defense classes so that she can learn to use some of what she has already learned. You'll probably never get her to train like you do.

By the way, providing a stun gun probably won't help either. Weapons are most useful as a deterrent; the more visible they are, the more likely she won't be attacked. If she's not concerned enough about her own safety, the stun gun will probably stay in her purse and will not be available should an attack occur. She has to at least fear enough for her safety to have it out and ready to use. Better yet would be mace or pepper spray attached to her keychain. At least it's automatically out when she's going to/from her car. But, she still has to have it ready to use to make it effective.

WhiteBirch

[Cruentus]

1. The problem is really about apathy, not disinterest. 1. She see's the value in learning self defense, she is just apathetic about it; no sense of urgancy 2. She doesn't trust learning from anybody but me. Since I am always around there is no sense of urgancy. 3. She is self conscience about learning in front of me, which makes it easy to put "push back" training.

This is why my solution was to get the tazer. I just wanted to get some other opinions. Now she'll have a tool in front of her that she will feel compelled to, at the very least, learn how to use. By learning how to use the "tool" effectively, she will have to learn some basic self defence concepts. Also, she'll have to learn what to do if the tool fails to work. So, I feel that by getting the tazer I will overcome the main problem, which is apathy, and she will be compelled to learn some basic things, which is all I am asking for.

Who knows, maybe she'll like it and want to continue training.

2. lvwhitebr: I have to disagree with your point. For one, if she had a weapon, she would be ready to use it. Especially if she had some training with it. #2, unless she has a pistol locked and loaded, I don't think that a weapon will be seen as a big threat to a true preditor. A preditor, chances are, have already been shot at, put in prison, stabbed at, fought, or (fill in blank) before. For the purpose of self defense, we need to assume the worst in this case, as opposed to hoping that they are just a 1st time criminal who would be frightened away at the sight of pepper spray. They will see a weapon as a mere obsticle rather then a threat if they are determined enough. Especially in the possession of a 100lb female. I feel that if she is going to be attacked at all, it will be by a preditor who doesn't care about what weapons she might have, and who will attack regardless. All making the weapon noticeable does is warn them so they can figure out a way around it. To me, 180,000 volts is a much better "deterent" then "look...I have pepper spray..."

Just my thoughts.

Thanks for your opinions.

:cool:

[tkdcanada]

Regardless of all this discussion, it's an insult to a woman's (or any other grown person's) intelligence to try to pressue them into going beyond what they deem necessary to ensure their own safety. I'm sure she's aware of the risks and has taken all that into consideration, and assuming she has all her faculties about her (which I'm sure she does) it's really her own perogative whether she takes additional precautions in the name of her own safety or not. Sometimes you just have to let go and trust.

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by tkdcanada
Regardless of all this discussion, it's an insult to a woman's (or any other grown person's) intelligence to try to pressue them into going beyond what they deem necessary to ensure their own safety. I'm sure she's aware of the risks and has taken all that into consideration, and assuming she has all her faculties about her (which I'm sure she does) it's really her own perogative whether she takes additional precautions in the name of her own safety or not. Sometimes you just have to let go and trust.

I think your wrong. People do (or don't do) things all the time, which put them in danger. It's not a matter of intelligence. If people don't "see" the danger then it is difficult for them to take the precautions. I run into intelligent adults all the time who do things like drive dangerously (running stop signs or lights, change lanes erraticly, speed excessively, etc.), or don't take certain precautions while driving (lack of turn signal use, no seatbelt, etc.) I use driving as an example because it is a good one. Accidents are caused all the time through negligent behavior, yet people don't take the precautions because danger isn't right in their face. Unfortunatily, danger often gets right in your face before you have the chance to take safety measures. It only takes one F-up and your in a wreck, and it doesn't even need to be your fault. I used to drive with a lot less caution until I got into a bad car accident. It wasn't my fault, but it awakened me to the reality of how dangerous driving can be, and how quickly that danger can get out of control. I now take the proper precautions.

I don't want an "accident" to happend in to her before self defense becomes a more imminant matter.

Besides....she agrees with me and will make the time for it, so she says. So I am not "insulting her intelligence". We just had a discussion. So it's not like I think she is in danger, and she doesn't think so. She knows she needs to do "something" yet it is hard to find the "time." Apathy again. Oh well....I am sure we will resolve this.

:cool:

[tkdcanada]

I knew I would get disagreement on this, but it's just how I feel about the subject. BTW, I didn't mean to come across as abraisive when saying this and I tried my best not to. :) I posted my opinion on the matter in general and didn't mean that you were directly insulting her intelligence. All I meant was that the perception of possible danger, negligence or lack of caution is different for everyone. A person may do something with perfect comfort (let's say talk on a cell phone while driving - a very controversial subject) and be in complete control, not perceiving it as dangerous or negligent at all while another would gasp at the fact. However, I do see where you're coming from, but my opinion still stands. Each person is free to decide on their comfort/safety threshold and it's not really the place of another to say whether that's a good threshold or not.

Anyway, it's good that she agrees with you. Despite my opinion here, I am probably the most cautious person you'll ever meet, but I also resent it when I can't decide for myself what's best - I, personally would consider it an insult to my own intelligence and competence to make decisions, but that's just me. Anyway, hope you two find a solution acceptable to all. :)

[Cruentus]

fair enough...thanks for the reply!:)

[arnisador]

I think there's a lot to be said for tkdcanada's point.

PAUL, I fear she'll always see it as your hobby more than anything else. That's what happens when you enjoy it! If you didn't like it it'd be an easier sell.

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by arnisador
I think there's a lot to be said for tkdcanada's point.

PAUL, I fear she'll always see it as your hobby more than anything else. That's what happens when you enjoy it! If you didn't like it it'd be an easier sell.

I know...I'll pretend to quit martial arts! SHE"LL NEVER KNOW!

:p lol

tkdcanada does have valid points; a lot of valid points have been made here.

I believe that your correct too in that she'll always see it as my hobby. I just want to make sure she has the awareness and where-with-all to protect herself if a situation should arise. I will be happy with that.

We'll see what happends, and I'll update you all on how things are going with it.

Tx,

Paul


:asian:

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by PAUL
2. lvwhitebr: I have to disagree with your point. For one, if she had a weapon, she would be ready to use it. Especially if she had some training with it. #2, unless she has a pistol locked and loaded, I don't think that a weapon will be seen as a big threat to a true preditor. A preditor, chances are, have already been shot at, put in prison, stabbed at, fought, or (fill in blank) before. For the purpose of self defense, we need to assume the worst in this case, as opposed to hoping that they are just a 1st time criminal who would be frightened away at the sight of pepper spray. They will see a weapon as a mere obsticle rather then a threat if they are determined enough. Especially in the possession of a 100lb female. I feel that if she is going to be attacked at all, it will be by a preditor who doesn't care about what weapons she might have, and who will attack regardless. All making the weapon noticeable does is warn them so they can figure out a way around it. To me, 180,000 volts is a much better "deterent" then "look...I have pepper spray..."


Actually, studies show that attackers will go find a weaker victim when confronted with a possible obstacle like pepper spray. It has nothing to do with whether they're recidivists or not (most are). She may never know it, but an attacker might size her up and not do anything just because she appears ready to use it. It's the same thing with a confident-looking person. Attackers generally avoid them because they don't want to work hard or get injured themselves. Also, a lot of pepper sprays also come with a dye that will mark the attacker for several weeks. So even if it doesn't stop them, they'll be a lot easier to find later.

My only concern with "weapons" of any sort is that the person not only has to have knowledge in its use, but has to have it out and ready to use. IMO, your fiance will take the training and may learn something, but with her "apathy" as you call it, she won't feel the need to have it out and available for use.

Hopefully this training, though, will peak her interest and get her involved in additional self-defense training. Do let us know how it goes.

WhiteBirch

[Cruentus]

I am familiar with the studies your talking about. I agree that attackers look for people who are not "ready," not paying attention, or looks like they would not have the confidence to defend themselves.

So I think that if she has something in her hand that gives her an edge, she will feel safer and will be more confident. Also, by having the object in her hand, she might tend to be more alert to potential dangers around her.

I question that the difference between a pepper spray can or a cell phone tazer will matter, though. In a dimly lit parking garage I question whether the perp will be able to even tell what is on the end of her key ring, and whether it is pepper spray or not.

I think that the deterent is more due to the reason that they don't "look" like easy targets, not because of the weapon they carry or don't carry.

I think that if she doesn't look like in easy target, this may deter some perps, regardless of weapons she has. However, if they have been stalking or casing what time she gets off of work, they aren't going to care about how easy of a target she may or may not be. And, I fear, that if someone is casing her, and they discover a weapon, such as pepper spray on the end of a keychain, they will find a way of getting around that weapon, such as coming from behind and making sure that they pin her hand holding the keychain right away.

However, I do like the added benefit of the spray that colors the attacker green for identification later. Although, I am more concerned with immediate defense rather then later identification, I do like the idea.

Since this conversation, I am seriously considering getting her both. I just don't like the idea of anyone only having 1 line of defense. It might be good to have the pepper spray in her key hand as her 1st line, and the tazer cell in her pocket hand as her 2nd line.

I'll let you all know how it goes!

PAUL :)

P.S. Yes, I know that technically her 1st line of defense is her awareness, her second line is her voice and feet (running), and her third line would be any weapon. The awareness will come with having to learn some self defense, which is what I want the most, but in a parking garage in the evening, the likelyhood of her outrunning a perp in heels, and anyone hearing her in the garage is not something to rely on.

[LadyDragon]

Another option which I really haven't seen anyone suggest is that of having a womens self defense seminar. Ask your fiance to invite some of her friends over to your studio one night for some fun and for all of them to share in the training. Even though your main concern is your fiance, maybe she'll be a little more enthused if she has a few friends who are also willing to take part in a seminar.

Set aside maybe one night a month where you can hold such an event. Have perhaps a women who has been attacked in the past come in and speak of her ordeal. This may give a bit more urgency to her wanting to train. After meeting someone who's been through that type of experience, and hearing the horror's of what can happen protecting one's self can become more important than when the class began.

Also remember that 85% of most women are attack from behind. So focus on perhaps rear attacks. If she has a taser and she gets attacked from behind she's still going to need to be able to get her attacker off her before she can actually use the taser.

In holding the class I suggest only two or three men be present. And the only reason why they're there, is to help the women in the training portion of the lesson, and so that the women can feel what its like to be attacked by a full grown man in an invironment where they can work through and see what works best for them in different situations.

I hope this works for you. And no matter what she says, be supportive in trying to make her understand how you feel about wanting her to training, and that it would make you feel better if you knew that she could handle herself.

[Cruentus]

Thanks LadyDragon! Good suggestions!

Question...where did you get the 85% statistic? I'm curious...I figured that the % of being attacked from behind or even "by suprise" was considerable (hence my problem with pepper spray), but I had no idea it was that high. I'd be curious to look that one up, because I have not seen that Stat. before.

Thanks again,

PAUL
:)

[LadyDragon]

You can get statistics like that by doing a search for the National Crime and Victimization Survey. You can get updated statistical information there.

[TallAdam85]

Paul I live in michigan as well I go to detriot often I never have any problems (MAYBE MY HEIGHT I am tall but not super tall ) but my mom works down there at DTE. She has told me before how some of her friends have been mugged. But to quote u
I feel that she needs some protection. I am thinking of getting her a tazer that looks like a cell phone, and training her to use it. A tazer are not allowed in Michigan it is a felony i know cause I wanted to get one but they would not ship it to michigan. If i can help at all I say go to Gerbltro Trade Center during the next Gun And Knife Show and buy this most powerful pepper foam keychain can. They show a video for it and they say it is the best next to what the cops carry.

[OULobo]

This may go under the same auxpice, but it may be a matter or aggression (ala other thread).

I'm in a bit of the same fix. My fiancee works in Cleveland's near east side very close to one of the most notoriously nasty neiborhoods. She drives directly through these neiborhoods for convience, when adding about five minutes to her travel time would allow her to avoid this area. Despite my pleas she continues to drive though this area. Sometimes people refuse to recognize how much danger they are really in.

Luckily she is very interested in MA and trains at one of the same schools I do. However she still lacks the aggression needed to apply the art in a confrontation. This makes me think that giving them the tools (knowledge of the arts) is only half the battle (G.I.Joe!!!) the other half is getting them to be comfortable using said tools in life. I know that if she got a little rougher treatment in class she would have an easier time applying her knowledge, but I'm not sure I can handle watching her get roughed up and I'm not sure our relationship could handle two aggressives in the same house (read apartment).

Consequently I can see how it would be hard to teach a lover or friend the arts, because to be a lover or friend generally carries with it a medium of equality, but the arts bring a competative nature to the relationship complicating things quite a bit, if the relationship isn't already competative.

Sorry for the rambing.

[TallAdam85]

First Paul It was nice to meet you Glad to see you there. I think I seen you once before at a Dan Anderson Semair awhile back.

But the tazer i was thinking if they think it is a real phone and there calling for help they may take it, So the cell phone tazer and good and bad points just hope i could help

[Brian King]

Paul, Have you ever thought about teamwork. For example if you and your lady (and Children?) are walking along or eating at a restaurant or getting fuel or whatever and get into a situation, does she know how to help you. Perhaps in getting her to realize that you are a team and you would need her help (even if it is only staying out of the danger zones and close to you at the same time (footwork), Coming up with code words that will tell each other of coming danger (awareness), perhaps how to neutralize opponents that are down while you continue to do the ‘work’, how to call 911 while maintaining contact with you, how to shield the children (if any) or her mother,

Perhaps while learning teamwork (bodyguard stuff) some of that training will stick to her for her ‘on her own’ work. It may even provide that spark for her to continue her training.

If that doesn’t work, force her to go to a good self defense course. Whine, *****, bribe and or threaten her to make her go. Once she does at least that much, her personal safety is now her concern, and you should not worry about it (at least not as much)and you will no longer have the right to ***** about her lack of interest. If she refuses to go consider leaving her. Someone who doesn’t see the value of providing for their own safety shows that something else is wrong and it will be a cloud on your relationship future.

Good luck

See you on the mat soon
Friends
Brian

[Cruentus]

Whine, *****, bribe and or threaten her to make her go.

Hey...I'm always whining and bitching about somethin'. ;) I know I should just fight her. Like in the old pink panther movies. I'll just ambush her everytime she comes home from work, or shopping, or whatever, and force her to defend!! (I can hear the sirens outside my door already...) :rofl:

Seriously, "teamwork" isn't a bad idea.

To update on how things are going:

She has committed to learning some self defense. She has a female friend who is going into the FBI, and who wants additional training. They plan to take my class together. So things seem to be working out so far. We'll see how it goes once they are in class.

:asian:

[LadyDragon]

Just remember that no matter what she decides to with her training, you need to be supportive of her decision. And also, if she shows more interest in a particular style or field or martial arts, have her follow the path that is best for her.

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by LadyDragon
Just remember that no matter what she decides to with her training, you need to be supportive of her decision. And also, if she shows more interest in a particular style or field or martial arts, have her follow the path that is best for her.

Or we could just fight daily...pink panther style! (lol) ;) :duel:

[LadyDragon]

Very true, just keep it fun and interesting.:D