"Physically challenged" martial artists

[Ceicei]

I define "physically challenged" as individuals who are deaf, blind, wheelchair-bound, amputee, or with other assorted types of challenges. (I dislike the terms "disabled" or "impaired".)

If you have experiences teaching or working with martial artists having one or more of these challenges, share these experiences with us please.

If you are one of these martial artists with a challenge, let us know how you handled your training? What did you do to make it easier for your instructors/students/training partners?
Thank you.
Respectfully,
- Ceicei

[arnisador]

We've had much discussion of this before, for example:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=890
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1450
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1421

There are more--try Search! (Feel free to continue this thread too though!)

[tshadowchaser]

I have had to change some of the moves in forms because a student was physicly unable to preform the original move. I did/do make the student know what the original move was so that when he/she teaches it some day they can pass it on as it was . They have to be able to explain the move as well as do it.
Dealing with those that have hearing problems is a little different ( sparing and haveing them stop is sometimes a challange)
Those with learning problems have to be taken as individuals, heck they all do .

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by arnisador
We've had much discussion of this before, for example:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=890
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1450
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1421

There are more--try Search! (Feel free to continue this thread too though!)

Thank you for sharing these threads. They were very enlightening.

It didn't really answer fully my question, but it did give me some ideas of how others view/work with the physically challenged martial artists.

I am deaf. However, my dojo and instructors are terrific. All of my instructors know a little sign. One of my very first instructors eighteen years ago (he now is visiting instructor to our dojo) had learned sign well enough that he does interpret at some seminars.

- Ceicei

[arnisador]

I believe we have another self--identified deaf martial artist here (username, Deaf (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=386)).

[Deaf]

Originally posted by arnisador
I believe we have another self--identified deaf martial artist here (username, Deaf (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=386)).

:ninja: Dang...I've been caught!!


I have alot of experiences both as a student and as an instructor. I think the main problem for the deaf is the "oral teaching" part of many arts. Even with sign language, we still miss quite a bit. How in the world do you translate shiken haramitsu daikomyo into sign language? :confused:

I believe that is the main obstacle that is faced really in regards to the deaf community. Your thoughts Ceicei??

Deaf

[Master of Blades]

One of my training partners called Bennet has a disease where his Muscle slowly turns into bone. I'm not sure of the exact details of the disease, but I do know that if he tears a muscle or breaks a bone instead of the tissue doing the normal stuff everything just turns into bone. So we have to be very careful when doing stretching locks and sparring with him just incase. We dont in anyway go easy on him, hes a tough bastard, was in the army most of his life, boxed for Cambridge and so. Havnt seen him for a while because he is on some new medication but it should be cool. The good thing is that even though its a rare disease hes young, so by the time it will be starting to really effect him there should hopefuly be a cure :)

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Deaf
:ninja: Dang...I've been caught!!


I have alot of experiences both as a student and as an instructor. I think the main problem for the deaf is the "oral teaching" part of many arts. Even with sign language, we still miss quite a bit. How in the world do you translate shiken haramitsu daikomyo into sign language? :confused:

I believe that is the main obstacle that is faced really in regards to the deaf community. Your thoughts Ceicei??

Deaf

Translation is definitely a problem.

It is easier with Kenpo Karate because it is English based. Even then to translate into true ASL (American Sign), it can be a challenge to sign "Raining Claw" and "Thrusting Salute".

My main peeve is when we do quick technique drills, it is sometimes hard to keep up when they say the technique names quickly (they aren't adept enough to sign fast yet). I have to be sure I catch it correctly. If I'm lost, I may look to my partner who will repeat the words or look over to another paired students to see what they are doing.

Other deaf martial artists locally that study different styles all have similar problems--it is lipreading the martial arts style terminology.

I guess there isn't a manual for martial arts related signed terms. You would think Gallaudet University [university geared for Deaf students based in Wash. D.C.] would have come up with something with martial arts or even just style specific if they already have manuals for computer/electronic terms, medical terms, etc.

- Ceicei

[Deaf]

Originally posted by Ceicei
Translation is definitely a problem.


I guess there isn't a manual for martial arts related signed terms. You would think Gallaudet University [university geared for Deaf students based in Wash. D.C.] would have come up with something with martial arts or even just style specific if they already have manuals for computer/electronic terms, medical terms, etc.

- Ceicei

That would be a daunting task to do! With soo many different martial art styles out there, different languages (Japanese, Korean, Chinese) as well. A very daunting task indeed.

I personally would just create your own signs for your particular style and then use thoses.

~Deaf~

[Nightingale]

I used to train with a guy who was deaf. He said he'd picked Kenpo because, besides liking the style, everything was taught in English. He came to us from a Korean school... can't remember if it was TKD or TSD, but in his words "Its almost impossible to lip read Korean when someone's shouting."

It would be nice if the Deaf community produced some manuals for martial artists. That way, it would be easier for instructors to learn to communicate with students who don't lip read easily... and lip reading isn't easy to begin with. Try it. Look at yourself in the mirror and say a bunch of rhyming words. Look how similar the lip movement is in each word.


If you have a physically challenged individual, probably the best course of action would be to ask them "do you need me to make any modifications in my classes to allow you to succeed? if so, what are they?" Don't make assumptions, because you may over or undercompensate.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
...but I do know that if he tears a muscle or breaks a bone instead of the tissue doing the normal stuff everything just turns into bone. So we have to be very careful when doing stretching locks and sparring with him just incase. We dont in anyway go easy on him, hes a tough bastard, was in the army most of his life, boxed for Cambridge and so. Havnt seen him for a while because he is on some new medication but it should be cool. The good thing is that even though its a rare disease hes young, so by the time it will be starting to really effect him there should hopefuly be a cure :)

That's an unusual disease. Considering martial arts is generally a contact activity, I'm surprised he didn't shy away from this. Perhaps martial arts is a double-edged sword for him. Not only is it risky with the calcificion of injuries, it probably also at the same time strengthens his body to withstand injuries better.

- Ceicei

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Deaf
That would be a daunting task to do! With soo many different martial art styles out there, different languages (Japanese, Korean, Chinese) as well. A very daunting task indeed.

I personally would just create your own signs for your particular style and then use thoses.

~Deaf~

Good point, considering there are hundreds of styles within martial arts.

- Ceicei

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
It would be nice if the Deaf community produced some manuals for martial artists. That way, it would be easier for instructors to learn to communicate with students who don't lip read easily...

Nightingale gave me an idea. Why don't we pool resources?

We have technology available--it isn't too complex any more. I have the equipment.

What is needed is a digital camera with ability to act as a camcorder or even just a plain simple camcorder. Just send the tape or memory card accompanied with a list of words on paper (to ensure proper spelling) and I can port it onto a cd or a dvd. There is software available to do subtitle and/or captions.

While videoing with the camcorder, just be sure to pause between sets of signs then repeat those sets a few times slowly. That will also help in making sure each sign set matches with the paper list. The titles of these will be put at the start of each set.

We could do one cd per style and that could become a sort of a library. With a cdrom-burner, it won't be difficult to make a few copies and then ship them back with the tape/memory card. The cds themselves only cost pennies (when bought in bulk) and the shipping costs.

The only major tasks would be taking the time to use the camcorder then sending me the tape or memory card and the time in porting over plus titling.

Maybe it could be a labor of love with just a couple of dollars to defray the cost.

- Ceicei

[Nightingale]

if you tape the signs, try to tape them over your own shoulder (so the viewer sees your hands the way the person signing sees their own hands)

I've used some sign videotapes where the person on the tape was facing me, and it was very difficult to copy them, because if you treat the tape like a mirror (their left is your right) you end up doing things backwards. Its easier if you can see what the signs look like to the person signing them, rather than to the person watching them.

does that make sense? I wish I could explain it better.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
if you tape the signs, try to tape them over your own shoulder (so the viewer sees your hands the way the person signing sees their own hands)

I've used some sign videotapes where the person on the tape was facing me, and it was very difficult to copy them, because if you treat the tape like a mirror (their left is your right) you end up doing things backwards. Its easier if you can see what the signs look like to the person signing them, rather than to the person watching them.

does that make sense? I wish I could explain it better.

Ah, "reverse" signs aren't really a problem. I'm left handed, so the issue of whether a sign should be done on the left or right hand is a moot point.

But you do have a point with the "over the shoulder" view. Perhaps doing the front view first a few times then an "over the shoulder" view afterwards might work well.

- Ceicei

[Nightingale]

I don't mean right handed vs left handed..... aren't many signs two handed?

what I meant is that when you're watching someone head on and mimicking them, you tend to mirror them... you move your right hand when they move their left, and move your left when they move their right, so everything turns out backwards.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I don't mean right handed vs left handed..... aren't many signs two handed?

what I meant is that when you're watching someone head on and mimicking them, you tend to mirror them... you move your right hand when they move their left, and move your left when they move their right, so everything turns out backwards.

No, it wouldn't be "backwards". Basically, its similar to doing a kenpo technique on the opposite side. It's still the same technique....[even though on testing, generally done with the standard (non-mirrored) side rather than the opposite (mirrored) side.]

For most people, signing is done with the dominant hand (right side). Even if its done with the left as a dominant hand, the meaning is still the same.

I do think that even if a person learns mirror image at first, they will eventually start doing it on their better (or more dominant) hand as it would feel more comfortable once they become fluent.

- Ceicei

[Nightingale]

ooohhh... ok.

I think the people who were teaching me were all right handed. that explains it.

[arnisador]

Martial Signing:
http://www.martialsigning.com/news

There is also a story on this in the current (Nov. 2003) issue of Black Belt.

The idea appears to be DKI methods that are applied to signs. That is, the physical movements of the ASL sign sequence for some phrase are interpreted as martial arts techniques involving pressure points, just as if the signs were a kata and one was finding bunkai from it.

It seems a bit forced to me, but of course it's hard to tell from pictures.

[MA-Caver]

Reading the article I was thinking that when the police show up after a deaf person takes down an attacker (utilizing those techniques) on the street, he/she could (write) "But, I was just talking to him, then he fell down." :lol:
:idea: Seems to me that CeiCei, Deaf and Matt Hayat might want to put their heads and hands together and write a book on it.
As far as translation goes for the non-engrish words in MA, for non Kenpo styles, the only thing I can think of is to find the closest engrish translation of those words then apply the briefest but most accurate sign to them.
And seeing how ASL is a continually growing language there's no law against creating new signs to apply to MA.

[7starmantis]

Wow, now that would be a great resource to have available!
We have several physically challeneged students as well as mentally challenged. We have a few autistic children who are doing great, and we've had a blind student. This guy was amazing a feeling. In kung fu we do feeling drills to learn to feel the other persons energy and balance, he was awesome at it. We've also had a few students in wheelchairs. The techniques and forms had to be adapted to him, but thats what kung fu is all about anyway, changing to fit any situation. It is a challenge, but so is anything in life. My best friend has a physical issue with his ankle, he was born with his foot on backwards, thye had to break it and flip it around, so he has a nice limp and some tnedon issues so almost no flexability in that leg. He puts me to shame in his training! He is most inspiring. He is a personal trainer at a huge medical facility and gym, and he is now leaning MA. I tell him that its going to be a challenege, but what good would it be if it was easy?

7sm

[Cliarlaoch]

We've got a few physically and mentally challenged individuals in my association. The association's policy has always been that we teach the art in such a way that anybody can do it, so we try to make allowances for those who cannot, for whatever reason, execute the technique by the book. We've got one guy, one Mr. Riley, who's physically challenged, and can't really execute kicks. But damn, the man can throw a punch. He knows all the techniques like the back of his hand, and can teach everything properly. It's not a handicap to him. He just learned what he can and cannot do, and works accordingly. Which is the way any martial art really works. You learn to do what you can, and if you can't, that's okay. You just modify the technique to work for you.

[MA-Caver]

I made a friend a number of years ago at a Wing Chun weekend-long camp who was confined in a wheelchair... That was his only place of confinement. This guy had great spirit and lightning fast punches. His chair handles came out and thus could double as a sort of tonfa. Showed me a bit of that technique and I told him I'm glad I just made a friend out of him.

How wonderful things are that more and more doors are opening these days for those who are not whole in limb or mind or body. This is one of my favorite Stephen R. Donaldson's quotes from his Thomas Covenant series...

"A vast gulf lies between creatures that are born and those that are made. Born creatures, such as we are, do not suffer torment at the simple fact of physical form. Perhaps you desire keener sight, greater might of arm, but the embodiment of eyes and limbs is not anguish to you. You are born by Law to be as you are. Only a madman loathes the nature of his birth."
~Hamako~

[TallAdam85]

a friend of mine in 10th grade He was Blind and also in Karate he quit cause he did not like it but some how he also played video games

[KenpoTess]

INTERNATIONAL MARTIAL ARTS FEDERATION OF THE DEAF (http://www.mclink.it/personal/MD4281/imafden.htm)

This may be of interest if you don't know of it already :)

[KenpoTess]

Various Physically Challenged Links (http://directory.google.com/Top/Sports/Martial_Arts/Disabled/)

[KungFuGrrrl]

I define "physically challenged" as individuals who are deaf, blind, wheelchair-bound, amputee, or with other assorted types of challenges. (I dislike the terms "disabled" or "impaired".)

If you have experiences teaching or working with martial artists having one or more of these challenges, share these experiences with us please.

If you are one of these martial artists with a challenge, let us know how you handled your training? What did you do to make it easier for your instructors/students/training partners?
Thank you.
Respectfully,
- CeiceiI am disabled (ruptured disc into spinal chord, osteo arthritis, PTSD and panic disorder)... 10 years in MA .... In the beginning of my training, the disc was protruding not ruptured so i did get to spar a bit however, my Sifu and the teachers and KF brothers I was taught by and worked with over the years... tried to let me make my mistakes... and EARN my hits hehe.... example 1 KFB (I actually timed it) took me 25 minutes to get a good hit on him BUT I knew it was for real hehe..... now, of course they would sometimes let me have a few *freebies* which was good in that it was encouraging to me....and they always gave me good hits too, many times I went home with some good ole bruises or a busted lip. but it was a good *battle scar*, so in effect I wasn't "babied" but handled with care to some extent....

I have also had a few *real life * situations over the years which were handled in my favor.due to my training..

I always say "Thank you for working with me" to my partner... but I came to realize that by working with me, they also gained benefit of learning patience and by going a bit slower with their own techniques from time to time, I feel made them better, and quicker..as I have heard, learn proper tech/speed and power will follow.

Also, we could take the time to analyze and *redo* the drills, I really miss working with a WC partner and am looking for a local *KF Brother* to train with keep up my Chi Sau and free style sticky hands....

I put WC on pause and am focusing on Tai Chi Chuan which is a good style as well and benefits my body.... but I lOVE WC.

Also, with disabled MA's it boils down to modify modify modify the moves, if the concept is there and the tech works then BAM! go with it.

Last year I was in a wheel chair for 2 weeks my Sifu had an odd look on his face and I told him "Hey, don't worry, Im the *meanest lil B** in a wheelchair, take out their knees I will! take out the knees! HEHE

Any way, Im rambling on and on and on.... the energizer bunny has nothing on me hehe.

Thanks for listening!

[shesulsa]

Good post, Grrrl. So, if I may ask, does your spinal injury involve any kind of paralysis? affect your balance and control? I agree on modification and I want to teach/coach disabled people, so I'm wanting to get more feedback - if that's too personal too soon, I apologize.

I also wrote my black belt dissertation on teaching and working with students with PTSD and was wondering if you'd be open to discussion on that topic.

Thanks!