Kara-Ho Kenpo?

[kkbb]

Does anyone here study Kara-Ho Kenpo?
What are the similarities to American Kenpo?
What are the differences?
How many official techniques?

Just interested in knowing what commonalities William Chow's art has with EPAK.
Thanks

[kkbb]

Maybe Mods can move this to other kenpo forum?

[arnisador]

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Mark L]

I inquired as to any Kara-Ho folks that frequent this forum a few weeks ago, no replies yet. The curriculum I study is basically Cerio Kempo, but we are required to learn four Kara-Ho forms: Kwai Sun for brown, Kata Set 2 for shodan, Combination Kata for nidan, and Hoshi for sandan. I've no experience with EPAK, so I can't comment on similiarities. The forms are markedly different than the pinans and kata of Cerio Kempo. They are quite a bit longer and, in my opinion, much more dynamic.

[kkbb]

Interesting....
I was very curious to know the dynamics of their self defences... since it was Chow who trained Parker...
Hopefully we get some response
TTYL

[jfarnsworth]

Tonight I just noticed in the newest issue of Martial Art that there's a big write up on Kara-ho Kenpo. Just thought I would throw this out.:asian:

[Seig]

Originally posted by kkbb
Interesting....
I was very curious to know the dynamics of their self defences... since it was Chow who trained Parker...
Hopefully we get some response
TTYL
I'm confused, how does Nick Cerio Kempo relate to Mr. Chow and Mr. Parker as related in your post? I know Mr. Cerio spent some time with Mr. Parker.

[dsp921]

William Chow was Professor Cerio's instructor and was the one
that suggested that he develop his own system, Nick Cerio's Kenpo.
( Professor Cerio spells kenpo with an "n"....).
Shihan James runs the NCK website and he covers the
history of NCK and Professor Cerio's instructors pretty well.
Professor Cerio's relationships with William Chow and Ed Parker are covered.
This site is easily the best place to go with questions regarding
Nick Cerio's Kenpo or Professor Cerio.
www.nickcerioskenpo.com

[kkbb]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Tonight I just noticed in the newest issue of Martial Art that there's a big write up on Kara-ho Kenpo. Just thought I would throw this out.:asian:
Where might I find this?

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Mark L
I inquired as to any Kara-Ho folks that frequent this forum a few weeks ago, no replies yet. The curriculum I study is basically Cerio Kempo, but we are required to learn four Kara-Ho forms: Kwai Sun for brown, Kata Set 2 for shodan, Combination Kata for nidan, and Hoshi for sandan. I've no experience with EPAK, so I can't comment on similiarities. The forms are markedly different than the pinans and kata of Cerio Kempo. They are quite a bit longer and, in my opinion, much more dynamic.

Hi Mark!
I was intrigued by your post. I notice that you list that you do Cerio Kenpo. However, you mention that you do Sam Kuoha's Kara Ho Kempo forms as well...
I know that Kara Ho Kempo is or was represented by Mr. Bruce Titcomb. I was fortunate enough to interview Mr. Kuoha at Mr. Titcomb's studio. I know the kara ho people are very "selective" in regards to who learns the system and learns the forms. The forms are primarily the invention of Kuoha based on his kenpo/kempo training with prof chow and other instructors, hence the length of the forms. Prof. Chow primarily taught basics,techniques and "lines" [a series of basics in a stright line that simulatew a short form]. I remember seeing Mr. Kuoha do certain techniques, I said at two points..."That's from Chow!", Yo which Mr. Kuoha said "yes,it is,but how do you know?" LOL!

In regards to the EPAKK influence in Cerio's Kenpo,it is limited due to the short time that professor cerio actually trained with Mr. Parker. Prof. Cerio refered to Mr. Parker as his "coach" as opposed to his instructor.

When, Prof. Cerio returned from his first visit with Prof. Chow in the 1960's, he was distressed because Chow's art was "so different" from what he had learned from George Pesare and others...

I'd like to find out more on your trainining and who your instructor is as well...
Hope I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Seig
I'm confused, how does Nick Cerio Kempo relate to Mr. Chow and Mr. Parker as related in your post? I know Mr. Cerio spent some time with Mr. Parker.

Hi Seig!
To answer your question, certain elements of of professor chow's system were incorporated into prof cerio's system, notablly the form "hansuki" and certain techniques he, and William "Bill" Marcierelli of Fall River,MA studied when they trained with Bill Chun Sr. [Prof. Chow's senior student] and Prof. Chow himself.

There are certain "master key moves" that are obviously from Prof. Chow. I've been researching the historical breakdown of the system of EPAKK and it's contributing arts. After working with individuals such as Bill Chun Jr., Sam Kuoha, "Sonny" Gascon and "Kimo" Ferreira I've gotten numerous insights into the history of kenpo.

As I've mentioned in a previous post, Prof. Cerio's actual training was limited to the short time that knew one another. I'd have to detail it out more via personal message or phone call.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Tonight I just noticed in the newest issue of Martial Art that there's a big write up on Kara-ho Kenpo. Just thought I would throw this out.:asian:

can you tell me the name of this martial art magazine so that i can buy it because i want to read it?

is it a September issue ???
thank you

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Hi Seig!
To answer your question, certain elements of of professor chow's system were incorporated into prof cerio's system, notablly the form "hansuki" and certain techniques he, and William "Bill" Marcierelli of Fall River,MA studied when they trained with Bill Chun Sr. [Prof. Chow's senior student] and Prof. Chow himself.

There are certain "master key moves" that are obviously from Prof. Chow. I've been researching the historical breakdown of the system of EPAKK and it's contributing arts. After working with individuals such as Bill Chun Jr., Sam Kuoha, "Sonny" Gascon and "Kimo" Ferreira I've gotten numerous insights into the history of kenpo.

As I've mentioned in a previous post, Prof. Cerio's actual training was limited to the short time that knew one another. I'd have to detail it out more via personal message or phone call.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

did you learn nick cerios kempo system ?

you have quite knowledge of kara ho system. I would like to know more about this system. Where did you meet bill chun jr, sam kuoha, sony, kimo ???

i assume you met them at nick cerios's studio in MA ???

[CoolKempoDude]

by the way, if anybody here knows where i can find out more information about karaho, please let me know.

if karaho articles appear in magazines, please let me know which magazine so that i can read them.

please also include issue number of martial art magazine so that i can locate it quickly. I don't want to subscribe 49000 magazines :_

thank you very much

[Kempojujutsu]

Carries two books on Chinese kara-Ho Kempo. Both are by Sam Kuoha with Ka'imi Kuoha.

First Book is Fundamental Practice and Techniques. It covers some history, exercise and stretching. Basic stances, blocking, striking and kicking techniques. Cost is $16.95 and is not worth it.

Second Book is Secrets of Ki and internal Power
This book shows some Self defense techniques but the main focus is on Ki. Has Breathing techniques to increase your ki. The book also cost $16.95. Again I don't think it is worth that much, maybe if it was sold as a set.
Bob :asian:

[John Bishop]

Try Sam's webpage: www.karaho.com. You can also email him at: karaho@bigfoot.com

You can email Sonny Gascon at: fgas@hawaii.rr.com, or check out his website: http://www.karazenpogoshinjutsu.com/

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Try Sam's webpage: www.karaho.com. You can also email him at: karaho@bigfoot.com

You can email Sonny Gascon at: fgas@hawaii.rr.com, or check out his website: http://www.karazenpogoshinjutsu.com/

I clicked on the karaho.com link and it took me to some website called Smarter Solutions for businesses. :confused:

[John Bishop]

Boy that's wierd. It's working now.
If the link goes bad again, just type the address in and try it.

www.karaho.com

[arnisador]

It's working for me!

[kenpo_cory]

It's working now. Shortly after I clicked on the link I got my brain back and just typed in the address like you suggested. :D

[arnisador]

The current issue of Budo Intl. magazine (#10) has two self-defense techniques from this style, demonstrated by Sam Kuoha.

I must say that they don't seem very realistic, but they are photos only with no captions so context is lacking.

[Pacificshore]

Budo International No.23-Article on Kara-Ho

Martial Art Sept 2003-Article on Kara-Ho

Inside Kung-fu June 2003-Article on Kara-Ho

[Karazenpo]

Please let me clear this up once and for all. Professor Nick Cerio is a "George Pesare Black Belt"- period. Grandmaster Pesare is the instructor who started him off in Kempo. He is the instructor Professor Cerio spent the most time in grade with and Gm. Pesare is the one who brought him through the ranks to Black Belt in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. Just look at Nick Cerio's Kenpo-it has Karazenpo written all over it, sure, it's the Professor's self expression of the art but it's still Karazenpo. Why do people think that after you make your black belt if you spend a few weeks here and there over several years, this person is now your 'identity', listed as your instructor with no mention of the man who gave you your foundation, the one who set you on the proper course, who molded you into what you are today. Now, did Professor Cerio learns some 'things' from Professor Chow?-absolutely. Was he one of the people he studied with? Yes, but let's not embellish that. Professor Cerio told me himself many years ago that George Pesare gave him his 'identity'. Nick Cerio's Kenpo is a 'SUBSYSTEM' of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu and if someone disputes that then they will end up with egg on their face because it's a fact! So what is wrong with giving credit where its due rather than perpetuate these myths? Just like stating Professor Chow studied Kung Fu from his father, a Buddhist priest! I think its about time we started purporting the facts and not the fantasy of the martial arts. Even if you don't like your instructor for personal reasons, that is not any reason to make up an altered lineage. If you are promoted by someone else later, use a sidebar or something but never forget your true roots because that is why you are here today! Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras

[Kempo Guy]

Does anyone here study Kara-Ho Kenpo?

I trained in Kara Ho (Sam Kuoha's version) for about three years. I've also been exposed to Prof. Chow's Kempo from a couple of other instructors (not Bill Chun) as well (which occured after my experience with Kara Ho). All in all, I trained in Kempo for about eight years... FWIW, I also studied AKK for about two years.


What are the similarities to American Kenpo?
Not much... :D


What are the differences?
One of the primary differences is the use of terminology. Kara Ho (Kuoha's style) does not use scientific principles to explain techniques. They tend to use terminology akin to Aikido (Shin Shin Toitsu / Ki Society) such as "extend ki", "keep one point" etc. They do not have fancy names for techniques either, for instance their first group of techniques are called "Basic techniques 1- 5".
They use a lot of high kicks, jumping kicks, spinning kicks etc. I think these are a carry over from Kuoha's earlier days in TKD (or related style).
There are also a lot more weaponry taught as well, starting with the Bo, Sai, Nunchaku, Tonfa, Butterfly knives etc.
The forms are very long and are reminiscent of Shaolin Long Fist / Wushu forms (imho).
There are too many differences to mention...


How many official techniques?
Don't know (I think only Kuoha knows). They are taught in groups, for instance "Basic", "Advanced", "Knife", "Club", "Grab arts" etc. There are generally five techniques per group (at least at the time I trained). There are also some techniques called "Prof. Chow's techniques" which there are twelve or so... (perhaps more). As you progress they added techniques 6 - 10 to the Grab arts etc. as well.


Having said all this, I was taught a very different curriculum from other teachers (students of Prof. Chow, not associated with Kuoha). For instance there were not many set techniques, rather "lines" similar to Tan Tui of Northern Shaolin. We were taught one primary form (although I was told there were a couple more) that taught the "master principles" of the art. This form when done full speed was reminiscent of "shadow boxing", except done in a straight line (except for slight angling as you slip punches etc.). No blocks were taught...
Oh yeah, almost forgot, once the forms were learned they were pretty much practiced as a two-person drill. And they encouraged us to look for our own applications of the movements in the form.
And finally, they were BIG on conditioning, i.e. physical conditioning and conditioning of 'weapons' (knuckles, legs etc.)
There's more but I've got to go...

If you have further questions, please feel free to email me or post them here.

KG

[kkbb]

That is the kind of info I was looking for.:asian:

[Kempo Guy]

Glad I could be of service. :D

KG

[John Bishop]

What one has to understand is that Kara-ho has evolved and changed many times between the time Prof. Chow started his own school in the late 40s and his death in 1987.
Even the name of the system has changed many times. Kenpo Jiu jutsu, Kenpo Karate, Chinese Kenpo, Goshin Jutsu Kai Kenpo, Shaolin Kenpo, Thunderbolt Karate, Dian Hsuhe Kara-ho Kenpo, Chinese Kempo of Kara-ho Karate.

His early students from the 40s like Adriano Emperado and Ed Parker learned a system very close to Mitose's Kenpo Jiu Jutsu, but with less emphasis on takedowns and more attention to rapid fire multiple hand strikes. During this time Chow did not teach the 1 kata Mitose had taught (Naihanchi Shodan).

His notable students from the 50s would be Ralph Castro and Bill Chun Sr. Ralph Castro trained to brown belt, and then got his black belt from Ed Parker when he moved to the mainland. When Chow stopped using the name "Shaolin Kenpo" he gave permission to Castro to continue using the name. Bill Chun kept the name "Goshin Jutsu Kai Kenpo" that Chow had used before Kara-ho.

The most drastic changes or additions to Karo-ho came as a result of Sam Alama Kuoha's association with Chow in the 80s. Kuoha had originally trained in the 60s with a student of Chow's, named Charles Kuihana. When Kuoha moved to the mainland in the late 60s he trained with several martial artists. He trained in a Kajukenbo offshoot receiving a black belt. He trained with Tigi Mataali, who claimed to be a student of Prof. Chow. He also trained in tae kwon do with Jun Chong, and aikido with John Damian.
Kuoha added aspects of all these arts into the Kara-ho that he teaches. He says that all these additions were approved by Professor Chow. I tend to believe this, since I have seen videos of Kuoha and some of his students training with Prof. Chow.

Now there are many faces of Kara-ho. When Prof. Chow was alive many, many, people went to Hawaii to seek him out. Some trained with him as little as a day, some 2 weeks. All of them later claimed to have been "trained by Prof. Chow", a few of them claimed to be teaching "true Kara-ho".

Everyone I have talked to who actually knew him agreed that he was a exceptional martial artist. People like Wally Jay and Sig Kufferath from the Okizaki Dojo told me that "he was the fastest karate man I ever saw", and "some of the Chinese kung fu instructors would challenge him for teaching non-Chinese, so he'd go to their schools and bust them up".
Adriano Emperado says that "he put the speed and the power in Kenpo".
His personal advisor and physican Dr. Ronald Perry first met him in the emergency room at a Honolulu hospital. Chow was waiting to talk to the police concerning a assualt where 3 men had attacked him. According to Dr. Perry, Chow was ruffed up a bit, but the other 3 were severly beaten, and one subsequently died.

In Hawaii, many of the senior Kenpo and Kajukenbo people have crossed trained with each other. I don't think there are any senior instructors that had "only" trained with Prof. Chow, including the late Bill Chun Sr.
So I think it would be very hard to find someone who actually knows all of the teachings of Prof. Chow, and teaches his system exclusively.

[Kempo Guy]

Mr. Bishop,

I am fully aware of the various teachers who were taught by Prof Chow and have done a lot of unpublished research in regards to Prof. Chow's teachings (with my instructor). As you mentioned, many trained VERY LITTLE with Professor and still claim lineage.

I have had the opportunity to meet Rev. Charles Kuihana as well as had dialogue and exchanges with Bill Chun's students. I have also been to Hawaii and trained with the late Prof. Tiwanak (one of Sijo Emperado's earlier students), Mr. Buell and a couple of students of Prof. Chow (one who trained with Prof. on a weekly basis since the 70's until Professor's death). Believe it or not, there are still guys over there that trained with Professor for a LONG time but has not come forward and DO NOT teach to the public.

As you mention, Kuoha has added A LOT to his version of Kara Ho. I've spent time at Sam Kuoha's home and also had the opportunity to meet and train with John Damian sensei, where most if not all of the "ki" material hails.

KG

[John Bishop]

Kempo Guy:

Are you under the impression that I was questioning the accuracy of your posts? I know that the printed word can be misinterpeted in forums, but your response sounds kind of hostile. I was simply adding more information on the subject.

[Kempo Guy]

No hostility... I was in a rush. After re-reading it I can see how it could be taken that way. I apologize.

BTW, these people I've mentioned have some very interesting things to say about the Kempo community and history... :D

There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there (and/or revisionist history) about Kempo and Prof. Chow in particular. I just wanted to let people know that I have had talks and trained with various individuals (I guess in order to lend myself some credibility as I am unknown on this board).


KG

[John Bishop]

Glad that's the case Kempo Guy. I look forward to more discussions on this topic. Sound's like we know a lot of the same people.
Prof. Chow's life is something that is very interesting, although somewhat sad at times. We probably both agree that he didn't get half the credit he deserved because of his isolation on the island, and the poverty he lived in.
It would probably be a much differant story now with the internet, videos, DVD's, and such.

[Kempo Guy]

Mr. Bishop,

I agree with you. Although Prof. Chow is now famous it is too bad he didn't receive the recognition he deserved while he was alive.
Although I am not so sure the 'internet age' would have helped him altogether that much.

As you mention he lived in poverty and was not highly educated. Although some claim to have tried to help him, unfortunately I'm not so sure this was the case.

I can only hope that some carry on his legacy.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Kempo guy and Bishop,

i certainly agree about Prof Chow.

I know little bit about Karaho. Learned from one of top Sam's students.

I guess Kempo guy and I are FORMER members of Karaho. I have a few questions for you guys.

1- How many Chow's students are currently alive and actually teachs chow's style ?

2- What do you know about Chow's techniques? How do you know if a person *teaches* or *practices* Chow's style??

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy


I can only hope that some carry on his legacy.

KG

can you name a few persons carry on his legacy ???

i want to know more about this kind of discussion. Please add more if you know more

thanks

[lonekimono]

For the guy who wants to know who does kara-ho kempo,
i know you can call sam, he's in cal. or you can call the LA police
he works there:D :asian:

[John Bishop]

Lonekimono:
Sam dosen't work for the LAPD. He medically retired from the San Diego Sheriff's Department in the early 80s. Prior to that he was with San Diego P.D. He lives in Blossom Valley (near El Cajon) in San Diego County.

Cool Kenpo Guy:
As to who is carrying on Prof. Chow's teachings, that's a matter of conjecture.
Ralph Castro says that his Shaolin Kenpo techniques are the techniques he learned from Prof. Chow.
Bill Chun Jr. says that the Goshin Jutsu Kai Kenpo techniques his father taught are the true techniques that Prof. Chow taught.
Sam Kuoha says that the Kara-ho techniques he teaches are true Kara-ho.
All three are probably right. Castro and Chun Sr. learned what Prof. Chow was teaching at the time.
And since Prof. Chow approved the additions that Sam Kuoha added in the 80s, then his teachings are also true Kara-ho.
A good comparison would be Ed Parker's kenpo. The students that he taught in the 50-60s didn't learn exactly the same techniques that the students of the 70s or 80s learned.

[lonekimono]

Well now John i thank you very much for that, when i last talked with Sam he told me that is where he worked with his brother But that was in the late 80's:confused: :eek:


Oh by the way you are right about Parker Kenpo (that is my roots):asian:

[John Bishop]

lonekimono:
I'm sure the LAPD thing was just some type of misunderstanding. I've known Sam for the last 18 years and being in California law enforcement for the last 32 years I've met several officers who worked with Sam at the San Diego Sheriff's office, including John Damian, who also retired from San Diego Sheriff's.
Seen the pictures of Sam standing next to his San Diego Sheriff's car when he was a canine officer. One of these pictures appeared on the cover of "Dog Fancy" magazine, and I think I still have a copy of it.
And, in the past I've written letters of recommendation for Sam outlining his law enforcement and martial arts experience. So, I'm sure about his law enforcement experience.

[Kempo Guy]

CoolKempoDude,

Yes, I was a member of Sam's organization until about '94. My instructor resigned that year... I trained with my instructor off and on for a few years after that. We still get together from time to time and work on stuff.

First off, my intention is not to start a flamewar and try to discredit any individuals teaching Kempo. Also, I want to protect the people involved who have explicitly asked me never to mention them by name so I will do so out of respect for them. If you gentlemen would like to carry a conversation "off-line" I would be more than happy to. Please "pm" me, or write me at kempoguy@lycos.com

To answer your questions:

1- How many Chow's students are currently alive and actually teachs chow's style ?
As Mr. Bishop has mentioned there are several of his students that are alive and teach. However, most have altered and carried on with a tradition that have become somewhat removed from Prof. Chow's style. Having said that, besides Bill Chun Jr. I only know of one other person on the mainland who is protecting (doesn't really teach anymore) what they have been taught by Prof. Chow.

In Hawaii, I only know of two guys who studied with Prof. Chow until the end (that still are willing to show some of the material although very reluctantly). There's also Prof. Chow's son, Steven, however he doesn't teach either. According to Sam Kuoha he doens't know any Kempo but this is definitely not the case.


2- What do you know about Chow's techniques? How do you know if a person *teaches* or *practices* Chow's style??

Please see my earlier post (especially the last half of the post). Some of the characterisitics are quick footwork (using angles), low stances (similar to a wide kneel stance in AKK), low line kicks, no blocks, and fast strikes (with a lot of clawing, knife edge, cross, hooks and uppercut type strikes). The training is quite severe.

FWIW, I don't think Parker's early Kenpo looks much like Professors Kempo. Although I guess Bill Chun's style is reminiscent of that.

To be honest, I don't think you'll have much 'luck' trying to find an instructor, unless you train with Sam Kuoha's Kara Ho organization. Otherwise, the instructors are pretty 'low profile' and do not advertise. One of the individuals in Hawaii has chosen not to teach anymore due to fear of lawsuits (due to the severity of training). I know this sounds overly dramatic but the training is harsh and most people will not stand for it and there's a great chance of injury.

And yes, Sam Kuoha worked for San Diego Sheriffs Dept. along with John Damien.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Kempo Guy,





There's also Prof. Chow's son, Steven, however he doesn't teach either. According to Sam Kuoha he doens't know any Kempo but this is definitely not the case.


did you see Steven do chow's techniques in person or somebody told you that ( you don't have to tell name)???

thanks




the instructors are pretty 'low profile' and do not advertise.

KG

i have to agree.

[Kempo Guy]

CoolKempoDude,

I have not seen Steven do the techniques. However, I have seen pics. Also, many people in Hawaii will attest to his skill. Several people including the late Marino Tiwanak told me about him.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy


The training is quite severe.


what kind of training a student has to go through to be considered SEVERE?

example will be nice :)

ALSO, You mentioned about Bill Chun in your post. what is Bill Chun's style about ???

you have more info about this style ?

thanks

[CoolKempoDude]

John Bishop,

your kempo system (kajukenpo) comes from Bill Chun's style ???

i guess your system is somewhat similar to bill chun's style???? if so, how similar ???

thanks

[lonekimono]

I thank you john for letting me know about that,
i met sam awhile back here in new jersey but again i thank you

[John Bishop]

Cool Kenpo Dude:

"Ka-ju-ken-bo" is a combination system of the arts of Tang Soo Do Karate, Jujitsu, judo, Kenpo, and Chinese Boxing (Sil-lum Pai kung fu).
The heart of the system is Kenpo Karate. Techniques from the other 4 styles such as karate kicks, judo throws, jujitsu joint locks, and circular kung fu techniques are added to the Kenpo to enhance it's self defense qualities. There are also techniques from western boxing and Filipino Escrima in the system.
There were originally 5 founders of Kajukenbo, one representing each of the 5 systems.
The Kenpo Karate stylist was Adriano Emperado. Sijo (founder) Emperado was William Chow's first black belt and went up to 5th degree with Prof. Chow. Emperado first started training with Chow in 1946.
SGM Ed Parker started training with Prof. Chow around 1949.
Bill Chun Sr. trained with Prof. Chow in the late 50s or early 60s. There is no connection between Kajukenbo and the Goshin Jutsu Kai Kenpo that Bill Chun Sr. taught other than the fact that they were both students of Prof. Chow.


William Chow's School 1949

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pef57b2a9fc2b733b6e27d1f89a6002d4/fc833c27.jpg

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by John Bishop


The Kenpo Karate stylist was Adriano Emperado.


does Adriano Emperado have a brother named John ?????

[Pacificshore]

I believe his brother's name was Joe.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Pacificshore
I believe his brother's name was Joe.

thank you for clarifying. I read an article from C.H.A 3 which mentioned Adriana's brother

[John Bishop]

The picture is real old and faded, but Adriano Emperado is on Prof. Chow's right, and Joe Emperado is on Prof. Chow's left.

[Kempo Guy]

Mr. Bishop,

Are the sub-systems (for lack of a better word) still prevalent within Kajukenbo?

If they still are then how does the Kempo-branch of the Kajukenbo differ from the CHA-3 system of Prof. Tiwanak?


CoolKempoDude,

They were referring to broken bones and such. Also their practice were done full-contact with no 'pads' etc. This includes sparring and technique work. You were expected to defend yourself at all cost... Also the calisthenic portions are quite hard and most Mcdojo students would not be able to complete the warm-ups.
(As a side note, I believe it was this type of training that allowed Shihan Bobby Lowe to excel in Kyokushinkai Karate (or Oyama Karate as it was called at the time).

As for Bill Chun's style, I have seen very little. Not enough to provide a comparison. I will say this, the few techniques I was shown were done a little more upright than what I was used to, however very similar to some of the applications we were shown out of the forms...

As Mr. Bishop stated the style of Bill Chun was Goshin Jutsu Kai Kenpo. He "inherited" this style from Chow, and later Chow created what is now known as Kara Ho. My impression is that the style taught to Bill Chun was still heavily influenced by Mitose in terms of technique and application... but I may be completely off base.

Kara Ho from what I have come to understand is based more on Chow's Chinese MA experience and an eclectic approach in finding the essence of 'street fighting'. From what I've been told, he spent a lot of time with Okazaki Sensei of Danzan Ryu and his brother John Chow-Hoon, who was a student of Okazaki Sensei. Prof. Chow also spent time investigating Lua through this connection as well (as Okazaki Sensei apparantly investigated Lua at his dojo). We can't forget all the "field testing" done by his students either... :)
Perhaps Mr. Bishop can substantiate some of these claims???

KG

[John Bishop]

Kempo Guy:

The Kajukenbo branches or subsystems are still prevelent. The 4 accepted branches of Kajukenbo are the :Original Kenpo Karate, Chuan Fa, Tum Pai, and Won Hop Kuen Do.
Within some of these 4 branches are methods. In the Chuan Fa branch are the Gaylord Method, and the Ramos Method.
Within the Won Hop Kuen Do branch is the Fi Kuen method, and Fut Sao Kuen Do method.
Off shoots or breakaways from Kajukenbo would be Karazempo Goshin Jutsu, Universal Kempo, Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Kenkabo, Ken Ka Kung Fu, and many forms of Hawaiian Kenpo.
I have not seen a lot of the CHA-3 techniques, but have heard that they are very close to the original method, and that they use some of the Kajukenbo katas. The late Marino Tiwanak was Sijo Emperado's first black belt. And he also trained with Prof. Chow and Woodrow McCandless (a Kenpo Jujitsu black belt under Thomas Young).
Your impressions about Prof. Chow are consistant with many things I've been told by some of the old timers. Both Wally Jay and Sig Kufferath said that Chow would often come to the Okizaki dojo to watch his brother John Chow-Hoon train. A little known fact is that at one time James Mitose rented space at the Okizaki dojo, so his students were probably exposed to some Danzan Ryu jujitsu. And Okizaki was one of the very few non-Hawaiians to have been taught Lua, having received instruction from David Kainhee.
I have met Bill Chun Jr. at some Kajukenbo get togethers in Northern Calif., but I have never really seen the Goshin Jutsu Kai techniques he and his father taught.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by John Bishop


I have met Bill Chun Jr. at some Kajukenbo get togethers in Northern Calif.

Bill Chun Jr and Kajukenbo have a good relationship. I see Bill Chun Jr appear more at your Kajukenbo places.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy

As for Bill Chun's style, the few techniques I was shown were done a little more upright than what I was used to, however very similar to some of the applications we were shown out of the forms...



what do you mean "more upright" ???? examples pls ?

thank you very much

[John Bishop]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
Bill Chun Jr and Kajukenbo have a good relationship. I see Bill Chun Jr appear more at your Kajukenbo places.

Most of the old Kenpo and Kajukenbo people are close, since we share a common root and the Hawaiian feeling of Ohana (family).

[Kempo Guy]

Mr. Bishop,

Thanks for your explanation in regards to the "branches" of Kajukenbo. I've only had experience with the Tum Pai branch, and I guess the CHA-3 branch if you can call it a branch...
I've also had the opportunity to work out with some guys from Karazenpo as well as Bill Ryusaki's school. All different, but the same... :D


CoolKempoDude,

I agree with Mr. Bishop. The feeling of Ohana seems to be prevalent with most of the old-school Kempo guys. I remember the first time I had the opportunity to "train" with Prof. Tiwanak, we were in someone's backyard drinking beer and breaking bricks. :) Then he would proceed to demo techniques on us. Fun, yet very intimidating. He told us that everyone should train while under the influence as it's good training (I'm not sure if it was in jest...)

"What do I mean with more upright"...
Well, I guess if you can picture Jack Johnson's (the boxing legend) style versus Mike Tyson's... perhaps it's a bad analogy.
It's hard to explain. There was heavy use of 'low-line' attacks, staying tight (very boxing like). Imagine responding to someone's attack (let's say a cross) by dropping your weight angling off slightly to the side and attack his floating ribs with a uppercut/hook type punch. When I say dropping your weight, I mean getting into a low-stance that will put you "under the attacker's arm", hence there's no need for blocking and by angling out you won't have to worry about a knee/kick from the attacker's lead leg. I'm not sure if you can picture this...

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy


When I say dropping your weight, I mean getting into a low-stance that will put you "under the attacker's arm", hence there's no need for blocking and by angling out you won't have to worry about a knee/kick from the attacker's lead leg.


i understand what you mean.

your description is like basic technique 1 of karaho ( sam's style ) if i'm not mistaken

[Kempo Guy]

Not quite...
Basic 1 (at least the one I learned) you were still in a "horse stance" when executing the first punch. However the second strike, which was like a left hook, is more like the entry I experienced except you kept really low in your stance.

I neglected to mention that once inside you try to take the guy down, i.e. by any means necessary. A lot of grabbing, breaking, sweeping etc. but nothing as fancy as Sam's stuff. Also you never kick above the waist, nor were there any spinning maneuvers (kicks, strikes etc) shown...

There's also the rapid fire striking which is a Kempo trademark but only as an entry.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
Not quite...
Basic 1 (at least the one I learned) you were still in a "horse stance" when executing the first punch. However the second strike, which was like a left hook, is more like the entry I experienced except you kept really low in your stance.

KG

In basic 1 ( same's style ), you also strike the guy's groin and finish your move with a kick

:)

[Kempo Guy]

Yes, I was merely commenting on the first punch or "entry" if you will. Going on the inside of the punch with a straight punch while dropping into a horse... the of course there's the left hook, groin strike, elbow, hammerfist and finish with a kick...

It is what it is....
Perhaps a better example would have been the first movement of "Kwai Sun" after the salute. This is the type of entry I'm talking about.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy

Perhaps a better example would have been the first movement of "Kwai Sun" after the salute. This is the type of entry I'm talking about.

KG

do you still practice karaho with your instructor ????

[Kempo Guy]

do you still practice karaho with your instructor ????

If you are referring to Sam Kuoha's Kara Ho, then no. Although once in a great while I get together with a couple of guys who still are affiliated with them.

If you're asking about my 'other' teacher, then my answer is.... sometimes. He has officially stopped teaching and occasionally we get together and work on some things so they don't get forgotten. Sort of keeping Professor's legacy alive...

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
If you are referring to Sam Kuoha's Kara Ho, then no. Although once in a great while I get together with a couple of guys who still are affiliated with them.

If you're asking about my 'other' teacher, then my answer is.... sometimes. He has officially stopped teaching and occasionally we get together and work on some things so they don't get forgotten. Sort of keeping Professor's legacy alive...

KG

your "other" teacher teachs "karaho" SOMETIMES ??? Sorry if i ask too much.

it's too bad to hear your "other" teacher stops teaching but it is a good news to hear you still learn SOMETIMES

:)

[Kempo Guy]

No worries. :)

My "other" teacher doesn't teach Kara Ho (as it is a trademarked name by Sam Kuoha / Kwai Sun company). And he doesn't really teach at all...

What I meant by occasionally getting together is this.
Some of the old students (including our teacher) get together around holidays (fourth of July, Thanksgiving etc.) and talk stories. Most of us are still involved in martial arts and inevitably we revert back to the common thread "Kempo". So we'll take the form (ironically the form is called Kwai Sun although it is completely different than Sam's Kara Ho version) and start pulling out applications (ie techniques) etc.

We all try to preserve what we can and our teacher has passed on everything he's been taught to a couple of the students who will carry it on...

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy


So we'll take the form (ironically the form is called Kwai Sun although it is completely different than Sam's Kara Ho version) and start pulling out applications (ie techniques) etc.

We all try to preserve what we can and our teacher has passed on everything he's been taught to a couple of the students who will carry it on...

KG

it's an interesting way of learning thing.

good luck with your learning and i hope you find what you are looking for

[CoolKempoDude]

Kempo Guy,

i see you learn "ninja" system too. How is it ???

[Kempo Guy]

CoolKempoDude,

Thanks...
I've moved away from Kempo and train primarily in traditional Japanese MA.

As for "ninja", I actually wrote Neijia, which means Chinese "internal" martial arts. I've trained in Tai Ji, Xing Yi and a little Ba Gua for the past five years (I still practice Tai Ji).
And I was training in Systema until recently (my instructor stopped teaching due to other commitments)...

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Kempo Guy,

i forgot to task you this question.

what your "other" teacher calls his Art ? professor's art?

Also,

how do you know which techniques you suppose to learn when you are at a certain rank in this system?

thanks

[Kempo Guy]

CKD,

My teacher just calls it Kempo. We used to call it Kara Ho but received some friction due to the copyrights etc. Between us, the students, we use the terms interchangably...

As for rank... well, we didn't really pay that much attention to those things. There were no specific technique requirement for the senior students. However, for the lower grades my teacher created forms that were pulled out of the "Kwai Sun" form. They were progressive, but I never really learned all of them... I was taught the KS form first and was never really initiated to the other forms he created.

When I left Kara Ho (Kuoha's organization) I was only a green belt (received it from Sam at his home). A year or two later my teacher gave me a sash and asked me to teach. So I assisted him with teaching for a couple of years (along with another senior student). So I figured when I left (after about seven years of training) I was at about a Shodan (1st degree BB) level. Please also keep in mind that I had been doing various martial arts for 12 or so years prior to starting Kempo, which may have contributed to advancement. :confused:

So in other words rank was not an issue. Quite contrary to most other styles of Kempo, we didn't have techniques we HAD to learn. It was more like how well do you know the one FORM and how well you understood the principles contained within it. We also had other two man drills as well as multiple opponent drills along with sparring. In addition to this conditioning was a HUGE part of training as I mentioned earlier.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Kempo Guy,

thank you for sharing that to me. As you can see, i dont know much about Karaho. Your information is certainly good to know if you are NOT in Parker's system.

Hopefully, you will eventually learn the truth of karaho which your "other" teacher shows you SOMETIMES.

I don't know how long you will reach to this goal even though you learn it SOMETIMES.

In the future, please drop us a line if you advance your "other" teacher KEMPO.

if you have any pic or video, please post it here so that everybody can see "KEMPO"

by the way, how long have you studied your "other" teacher KEMPO ?

and

DO you learn your "other" teacher KEMPO in Southern California or Hawaii if you don't mind me to ask you that?? ( don't need to get into details )

:)

[Kempo Guy]

Hi.

My teacher doesn't reveal anything "new" to us anymore... but there are new things revealed to us through training. Although I no longer train in Kempo, I do practice what I have learned (I distinguish between training & practice).

I don't personally think there are any "truths" to be found. Prof. Chow's Kempo was evolving constantly (or so I was told) and at the end only taught a few forms along with the drills mentioned.
I do think that many of the lines (who claim direct lineage) have diluted Prof. Chow's Kempo beyond recognition as I believe there are certain characteristics that bear the trademark of Professor's style (there's a reason he was called "Thunderbolt Chow").

I don't really have any video footage of us doing Kempo, but perhaps next time we get together I'll see if I can take some footage.

I trained with my teacher for roughly 7 years, and we got in touch with Prof. Chow's students at the tail end of my first year although he had made contact with people here on the mainland prior to that, as well as making a few trips to Hawaii when Professor was still alive.

And finally, yes, I was training in Kempo in So. Cal. although we'd make field trips to Hawaii.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy


I do think that many of the lines (who claim direct lineage) have diluted Prof. Chow's Kempo beyond recognition as I believe there are certain characteristics that bear the trademark of Professor's style (there's a reason he was called "Thunderbolt Chow").



I absolutely agree. It happens every where. It is really a sad thing

did you go to Japan to test for your black belt in "ninja" system ????

[Kempo Guy]

I absolutely agree. It happens every where. It is really a sad thing

Yes it is... and you're right, it happens in almost every system.


did you go to Japan to test for your black belt in "ninja" system ????

Per my previous post, I do not study a 'ninja system'. I have studied Neijia, i.e. Tai Ji, Xing Yi and Ba Gua (and also had the opportunity to train in Taiwan a couple of years ago for a couple of weeks). We don't have any rank in these systems (that I know of).

If you are referring to my Koryu Bujutsu, then no, we don't use this type of a grading system (Kyu/Dan system), but rather menkyo system (lisence). And no, I have not received any menkyo so far.

I did however receive my Shodan (1st degree BB) in Jujutsu in Japan, as well as my sankyu and nikyu (brown belt) gradings in Kyokushinkai Karate while there (I lived there in '89 - '90).

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Kempo Guy,

you are a traveler heh?

it seems to me that you have your hand nearly all MA systems in the world

impressive resume

[Kempo Guy]

Yes, I've had the opportunity to travel and live in various parts of the world (for better or worse). This has forced me to switch systems more often than I would have liked. Don't be too impressed with my "resume" as I'm not all that skilled in any of them. Unfortunately I'm suffering from the "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome... I've had a taste of many things but nothing that I could call substantial.

For the most part I just enjoy training and am not overly concerned with rank or systems these days. Although there are systems I would like to investigate further, especially traditional Jujutsu and also Silat Serak (I know, it's a weird combo). I don't think I will ever get the chance to study both systems, and I'd be more than thrilled if the opportunity arose where I could study one of them along with my Koryu studies.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Kempo guy,

sometimes, we don't know what we want. Many of us choose second MA style as our PRIMARY art after learning FIRST.

Do not feel bad.

I'm glad you find what you like to study after having a general education.

i wish you all the best in your MA journey. Of course, please let us know if you finally achieve your goal.

if you have more info in your "other" KEMPO, let me know as well

[Mark L]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
No worries. :)

So we'll take the form (ironically the form is called Kwai Sun although it is completely different than Sam's Kara Ho version) and start pulling out applications (ie techniques) etc.

We all try to preserve what we can and our teacher has passed on everything he's been taught to a couple of the students who will carry it on...

KG .


Originally posted by Kempo Guy
Sort of keeping Professor's legacy alive...

KG .

KG,

The curriculum I study has elements of Sam Kuoha's Kara Ho. To date I've learned Kwai Sun and Kata Set 2. I'm wondering how different these forms and the techniques within them are from what Prof. Chow taught?

Of course I recognize that one man's art will likely never be a carbon copy of anothers. My Kempo isn't exactly like that of my instructor. I practice what he teaches and move in similar ways given similar circumstances, but I'm not him. A good analogy: I have twin sons and people often ask if they are identical. My reply is "No, but they sure do look like brothers." How similar is Sam Kuoha's Kara Ho and Prof. Chow's Kara Ho?

[Kempo Guy]

I'm wondering how different these forms and the techniques within them are from what Prof. Chow taught?

The forms (Set 2 and Kwai Sun and Hoshi for that matter) are VERY different from the two forms I've been privvy to witness and learn (I only learned one of these forms). As far as I know, the two forms (actually I believe there were three) were taught without any changes from what Prof. Chow taught up to his passing.

As Sam Kuoha was a student of Professor there are elements of Professor's style throughtout the system. However, he has expanded the curriculum to something that is not quite recognizable...

The form I was taught was performed in a straight line and you only turned when you ran out of space. :)


How similar is Sam Kuoha's Kara Ho and Prof. Chow's Kara Ho?

The primary differences I've seen are in in the number of forms, techniques etc. that Sam Kuoha teaches vs. what Professor taught. Also the high kicks, spinning maneuvers (like the sweeps) were not taught either.

Prof. Chow didn't seem to focus on techniques in the sense that he did not have specific responses to an attacks like Kuoha's 'basic', 'advanced', 'grab arts' techniques etc. The techniques and the principles were taught within the forms. The form did have a 'basic' application that were taught to beginning students as the form was in essence a two man set. Once learned it was encouraged to look within the form for 'other' applications and principles.

Finally I'd like to mention that we were taught a lot of two-man drills as well as conditioning.

Hope this helps,
KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Mark L,

do you study KARAHO ( sam's style) or nick cerio kenpo?

[Mark L]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
Mark L,

do you study KARAHO ( sam's style) or nick cerio kenpo?

Actually, both. Our core curiculum is Cerio with all the pinans, katas, combinations, punch techniques, etc. Blended with that are the Kara Ho forms and line techniques. And so we don't get bored, there's BJJ and pressure point applications for all of the above. It's quite a bit of material and, truthfully, I'm having a hard time keeping up as I prepare for that 'big' test.

How about you, what do you study?

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Mark L
Actually, both. Our core curiculum is Cerio with all the pinans, katas, combinations, punch techniques, etc. Blended with that are the Kara Ho forms and line techniques. And so we don't get bored, there's BJJ and pressure point applications for all of the above. It's quite a bit of material and, truthfully, I'm having a hard time keeping up as I prepare for that 'big' test.

How about you, what do you study?

Nothing really.

[Seig]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
can you tell me the name of this martial art magazine so that i can buy it because i want to read it?

is it a September issue ???
thank you
Martial Talk Magazine Information (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=87)

[Karazenpo]

This is an excerpt from KenpoJoe whom I deem is extremely knowledgable in history and tradition:

When, Prof. Cerio returned from his first visit with Prof. Chow in the 1960's, he was distressed because Chow's art was "so different" from what he had learned from George Pesare and others...

I'm going to try to give an anwer to this but again, it's my perspective and would most welcome comments from others.

Professor Cerio did not learn Chow's Kempo from Gm. Pesare. Mr. Pesare taught a direct Kajukenbo subsystem of Sijos Victor "Sonny' Gascon & the late Walter L.N. Godin-Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. The founding date of this art was 1960. It was a very powerful system based on Emperado's "Original Method' (Kempo Karate)- Kajukenbo. To the best of my knowledge and others, up to that time the Hawaian kempo being taught by Professor Chow, Mr. Parker, Sijo Adriano Emperado and others was essentially the kempo of James M. Mitose. I'm sure these men put a little spin on it to fit their own perspective at the time but the bulk of it is what Mitose taught Chow. If you look at the different books of that era you will see this relationship. Mr. Mitose's book, What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jui Jitsu) was written in 1947 & published in 1953. Mr. Parker's book, Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist & the Empty Hand in 1961. Mitose was very friendly with Gm. Robert Trias and they did train together, so most likely exchanged ideas and techniques. Mitose was known to practice and teach the Naihanchi Shodan kata of Trias's system. Trias' book The Hand is my Sword-1st printing in 1957 & 2nd in 1973. Check these books out and you will see for yourself the close similarities of technique. it is my feeling that it was sometime in the 60's that things changed. You can see it in the Master Bill Chun Sr.'s form of Hansuki-the signature rapid fire hand strikes. I do not believe that was around in the 50's as we see it today. It is said by Sijo Emperado that Chow made the old kempo faster but I wonder too if these early Filipino pioneers had something to do with it as Escrima is noted for this also. Anywhere, the original kempo of Kajukenbo was Mitose's Kempo, hense, Professor Cerio's comments quoted by KenpoJoe. Just like in the early kempo days, one, maybe two stunners or entry moves and one to two power strikes. Actually, that's pretty realistic, on the average but at times we all know it may take several more hits, takedowns, whatever it takes! To me kempo is like boxing-the rapid fire strikes are kempo's version of jabs, may take one, may take more and the power moves are just that, the finishing moves like the hook, uppercut, cross, etc. Look at the original Karazenpo forms, they do not have all that rapid fire striking of Hansuki but they were developed in the late 50's. If you look at Nick Cerio's Kenpo ( founded-1974) you will see many original Karazenpo techniques. Some modified, others like 'Sweeping Tiger' hardly at all changed. Some like 'Dance of Death' (this is not the same as Mr. Parker's) was a modified verion of an original Karazenpo combination, primarily by adding more rapid fire striking. This is my perspective but i would like to hear from others and if KenpoJoe can respond: Did Professor Cerio mention to you what the difference was? respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras

[kidkarate]

Regarding learning the forms of Kara-Ho and it's names, those are all federally protected titles and forms unless it has been changed at least 60%. My instructor told me he saw the federal copyright papers (he has no reason to lie) and so if this is so, your system could have a law suit coming. Also my understanding (I have not learned all of them yet) but Kwai Sun Kata is for yellow belt. Kata Set II is for advanced purple, Hoshi is for Brown belt and Combo is for sho-dan. Then it goes up from there and they teach 16 different weapons forms with 3 katas for each weapon. After sho-dan there are techniques against 6-10 attackers and then they even have 11-15 attackers and I have seen them on demonstrations and been an uki once for my instructor in Montana and I don't like that portion of these techniques and wow, it is unlike you have ever seen before, totally impressive and also the weapons forms are very dynamic. My instructor in Montana competes with them all the time and take grandchampion for the Montana State Games and I know that Sensei Ka'imi Kuoha (Grandmaster Kuoha's daughter) just took grandchampion at a big Southern California tournament with real tough competitation.
Someone wrote that the Kara-Ho Books are not worth the price, but I have them both and if I wanted to know what Kara-Ho was all about, they certainly gave me more of an insight about what they teach and how. By the way that is the price that the company listed them for. There is a tape relating to the history and it is awesome, but I think you have to order them through Kwai Sun Company and the last time I got mine (last year) it was sold for $29.95 plus shipping and it has allot of techniques from when Professor Chow was alive and how these techniques are shown today after the innovation by Professor Chow and Grandmaster Kuoha in the early 80's. You can write to karaho@juno.com for info on the books or the tapes.

[kidkarate]

I asked my instructor from Montana what the difference between Professor Chow and Grandmaster Kuoha's Kara-Ho Kempo system is and he said that it is one and the same. Professor Chow in the late 70's to early 80's saw a need to add different things to his system. He watched Kuoha do flying kicks from his training in Tae Kwon Do and then took those high kicks, which has never before seen in Kara-Ho and change the phsics of how to do these kicks, which made it stronger, faster and using Ki. My instructor said he spoke to several people that knew both men including Dr. Perry, his personal friend, physician and advisor and he said there was no changes without Professor Chow's acknowledgement and he said that is why Kuoha was chosen as the next leader of Kara-Ho because Professor Chow felt that Kuoha would keep the system intact. In all of the magazines that has written about Grandmaster Kuoha, he always states in these articles that Kara-Ho Kempo is and will always be Professor Chow's and he is only the caretaker of that system until it changes hands at his death. Everyone knows that his daughter, Sensei Ka'imi will be the next leader and she is an awesome teacher as well as a leader( she is very heavy in the film business). What I have been told is that Grandmaster has an older daughter from his first marriage that was promoted to sho-dan by Professor Chow, himself but she doesn't train. I know that he has a son also that doesn't train but he has a younger brother who is a cop in San Diego for sometime now who trains with Grandmaster. Most of his black belts are in law enforcement agencies and many of them head the SWAT teams for their respective departments. I have met Grnadmaster Kuoha's bodyguard and he is a former Sgt/Maj of the 1st recons Marine corps and taught all the recons from California and he is now in law enforcement and he is a very tough person, but super nice, unless you get him mad, I guess.

[kidkarate]

Please read message by kidkarate in regards to Kara-Ho.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by kidkarate
Regarding learning the forms of Kara-Ho and it's names, those are all federally protected titles and forms unless it has been changed at least 60%. My instructor told me he saw the federal copyright papers (he has no reason to lie) and so if this is so, your system could have a law suit coming.

Nonsense. If this is true, I'll go down to the police station and register my hands as deadly weapons.

[Shiatsu]

You can't copyright a martial arts style, just ask Lou Cassamassa of Red Dragon Karate.:rofl:

[Blindside]

Kidkarate,

Who do you study under?

I've met most of the Kara-Ho instructors in Wyoming and Montana, mostly from when they used to compete against us at tournaments.

Lamont

[Shiatsu]

Do you compete in the EKL?

[Blindside]

Yes, though I don't make it down to Salt Lake much. I consistently attend Mr. Crews' EKL Missoula tournament, and our school hosts the EKL Wyoming tournament in May. I usually hit the April Salt Lake tournament as a warm up for our home tournament. It is a rare year that I attend more than three tournaments.

Our school has a small tournament team that regularly hits the EKL circuit.

I actually really like the EKL, it has really toned down the stupid politics that usually go on at tournaments. One of the reasons I don't make SLC tournaments much is a holdover from about 5 years ago, when the political crap in SLC was unbelievable, that was when we were still NBL/SKI affiliated. It is much better now.

Lamont

[Shiatsu]

Well Ron Bennett is still there so that is enough to stay away, I have never met a bigger ass in the martial arts. I do like the Cox's and Roark however, they have great competitors, I think your school has the older gentleman that always competes in self defense correct? He is fun to watch.:asian:

[Kempo Guy]

Sam Kuoha did copywrite the names Kara-Ho and Kwai Sun as it pertains to his system. I have seen the documents.

As for Sam Kuoha and Prof. Chow's Kempo being the one and the same... well, that has not been my experience.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Blindside
Kidkarate,

Who do you study under?

I've met most of the Kara-Ho instructors in Wyoming and Montana, mostly from when they used to compete against us at tournaments.

Lamont

are these karaho instructors any good ????;)

[John Bishop]

I've got to support Kempo Guy on this. The Kwai Sun Co. Inc. has registered the name "Kara-Ho" and the various "names" of the techniques. That is why you don't see any other schools using the name "Kara-ho".
This is something that is possible in martial arts where the names are not old enough to become "public domain". Names like "karate", "kung fu", "kenpo", etc can no longer be copywrited. In our case the name "Kajukenbo" has been a registered trademark with the State of Hawaii since 1960.

[Blindside]

are these karaho instructors any good ????

In general, YES.

[arnisador]

I can believe registering (not copyrighting) the name. This is not uncommon for the style, though I haven't heard of it for forms within the style before.

I cannot believe that the same could be done for the kata, or that a lawsuit over a "stolen kata" could be successful.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
Sam Kuoha did copywrite the names Kara-Ho and Kwai Sun as it pertains to his system. I have seen the documents.

KG

I'm going to start a new thread on the 'copyright a form' as there seems to be enough interest. I archived a relevant discussion a few years ago from the usenet rec.martial-arts newsgroup (a public discussion group searchable on google) that sums this up neatly. The topic covers a few martial arts, so it's not completely relevant here, but is an interesting side discussion.

Matt

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Blindside
In general, YES.

does it mean they win many trophies there????;)

did you have a chance to compete one of them???

[Matt]

Originally posted by Matt
I'm going to start a new thread on the 'copyright a form' as there seems to be enough interest. I archived a relevant discussion a few years ago from the usenet rec.martial-arts newsgroup (a public discussion group searchable on google) that sums this up neatly. The topic covers a few martial arts, so it's not completely relevant here, but is an interesting side discussion.

Matt

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11510

[arnisador]

Sounds like it'd be mighty hard to copyright a kata.

I also wouldn't want to be the judge deciding if the kata was changed only 59% or a whole 61%!

[Grasshoppah]

Why worry about kata forms being copied, when no one can see what's happening internally. Kata is external what matters is how you move it internally.

[kidkarate]

I trained with Sensei Thompson who is a san-dan and I think you all misunderstood me. The federal protected names such as Kara-Ho are and is copyrighted, not the system. So are the names that are used for forms and such and if you don't believe me try calling the federal government. And for your information you can register a system under a person's name, and if you have a special technique that you created, yes, you can even register that. If this is not the case then I am going to the wrong law school that is providing me with wrong information. By the way what is your name, whoever claims to have been a green belt under Kuoha in the earlier years as he had very little that reached that level and prior to Professor Chow's death, you could count them on one hand and everyone in the system knew who they were.

[kidkarate]

Thank you Mr. Bishop for clarifying these things to people that really don't know what they are talking about. I wrote an e-mail message to Grandmaster Kuoha and asked him if he knew you and he had so many great things to say about you, even to the effect of your break-up with your former instructor prior to training in Kajukenbo. He told me that your search for knowledge is what consumed the break-up but your former instructor did not accept that, and he said one must do things that might hurt another, but that you search for knowledge for yourself and not for others. He said that you and he had numerous conversation before and that you are a person of high value and am always searching for the truth. He relayed to me that you were like a dying breed of martial artists. You remibded him of John Soet, the editor of the onetime magqazine, "Inside Karate" who always looked for the truth and would go to the ends of the earth to find it, and didn't care who it hurt. I commend you for your hard work.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by kidkarate
I trained with Sensei Thompson who is a san-dan and I think you all misunderstood me.

You wrote:

Regarding learning the forms of Kara-Ho and it's names, those are all federally protected titles and forms unless it has been changed at least 60%.

It seemed like you were saying both the names (titles) and the forms were copyrighted. What was the 60% referring to--the number of letters in the name?


If this is not the case then I am going to the wrong law school that is providing me with wrong information.

I'm guessing this is so. Your profile says you're an attorney. The overwhelming majority of attorneys are already law school graduates. In a few states--perhaps only NH--you can still become a member of the bar by apprenticing, in theory, though it's very hard to do. Unless you apprenticed like Abraham Lincoln, it's unclear to me why you'd be going to law school if you're an attorney by occupation already.

I don't think you're playing straight with us.

[kidkarate]

Read my letter again, I said that the law school I am going to would be teaching me incorrectly about these things referring to you that I am in law school, which in most people's opinion, is not yet an attorney, but studying to be one, if in fact after I graduate I can pass the bar. Any other questions?

[Michael Billings]

kidkarate, I do not believe that the content of a form can be "copywrite protected", as it is not necessarily "written, which is what copywrite law applies to. So that is good information. But in no case can a "System" be protected, the names of the techniques could be protected, or the name of the system could be copywritten, but not the actual techniques or forms.

Devices can be patented, but I cannot imagine a "behavior" or any pattern of motion or response, whether dance, martial arts forms, or how you mow your yard, being protected in such a way that is legally binding or valid. Can you imagine "copywriting" a ballet, not the music, which can be, but the dance itself? Hmmmm...?


On kidkarate's profile:

no martial arts



So how do you know what a Kata or Form is? Disingenuous or Deceitful? I think I need more to go on before I jump to any conclusions. Honesty and integrity are recognized and rewarded by this group. I saw you said you trained with Sensei Thompson who is a san-dan, but that contradicts your profile. More info please.

Thanks,
-Michael

(edited for accuracy)

[kidkarate]

In my profile it has me as being an attorney but that is because I hope to be there by next year and I am already working as one helping the district attorney file and represent cases in court. I already have a firm wanting me to work for them when I am done. I think that is where you misunderstood me as in my response I did say that I was still attending law school.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by kidkarate
Read my letter again, I said that the law school I am going to would be teaching me incorrectly about these things referring to you that I am in law school, which in most people's opinion, is not yet an attorney

In most people's opinion, perhaps, but not yours. Your profile (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=2548) lists your occupation as attorney (see near the bottom). Not Law Student, but attorney. (It also says you don't study the martial arts, if I read it correctly.)

I don't think you're playing straight with us.

[kidkarate]

It's none of anyone's business if I do have or how long I have been in martial arts. It's just great to see how people can twists and make up their own solutions to whom and how this system came about or who the head of this system is and is it the real system of this person, and so forth and the thing about all this is many of you don't really know what you are talking about. Okay I have only been in the arts a short time, but the one thing that has been drummed into me is to have respect. All of you speak like you know Grandmaster Kuoha and Professor Chow, but very few of you really know both men. Have any of you ever seen the certificate signed and notarized by Professor Chow to Kuoha or the declaration from his wife to him, or better yet have any of you ever heard the tapes that Kuoha has with Professor Chow on it. If you have heard it like I did, you would truly understand where and why the Kara-Ho Kempo Karate System was given to Grandmaster Kuoha. Because he was the only one that cared and took financially cared for Professor Chow and his wife. Ane even after his death Kuoha continued to pay a % of Patsy Chow's care in a home (Dr. Perry atested to that). Not even his students that were back home did that for him and none of them went to see or visit Patsy Chow when she was in the home. Kuoha continued doing that and also had his sister visit her every week on his behalf and she would take Patsy to the gravesite and then to the store to buy her things while Kuoha provided the funds. And Steven Chow, never received a black belt from Professor Chow but was a black belt in a Japanese System and he and Kuoha had a falling out because after the death of Professor, he asked Kuoha to promote him to 9th dan and Kuoha couldn't do that even if he knew that Steven was an asset to him because on that day he saw Patsy Chow with cuts and bruises to her face and she told him that Steven had beat her the night before and took all her money, which was a common practice for him, so at least Kuoha had some insight to make sure that students would have to follow someone with intergrity and standards. And the last word from Dr. Perry was that he saw Steven, a drug addict and homeless a few weeks ago. He told me that Kuoha at one time brought him to California for a whole summer to try to clean him up because of his love for Professor Chow. And I learned this also, like Mr. Bishop, by investigating and talking to people that knew, like Dr. Perry of Hawaii. In fact before joining Kara-Ho, I had my uncle, who lives in Hawaii and knows Master Charles Kuuheana do allot of investigating before I would join the system, and believe me after I found out what it was all about, I jumped on that train. Sorry I rattled on, but with what I went through, it upsets me when people say things that are not true to any extent. Do you think all those magazines write about people without any investigation?

[kidkarate]

no martial arts

I was told once by a very wise man who told me that I didn't know anything until I had been doing it for 10 years and he meant it with respect and in every sense of the meaning so when I say "no martial arts," it means that I have only an ounce of training as compared to this saying that I should be in it for at least 10 years before I know anything. Any disareement? I think in anything that one does, to be good at it, one must be doing it for quite some time. This is said by one of my law professors.

[Kempo Guy]

kidkarate,


By the way what is your name, whoever claims to have been a green belt under Kuoha in the earlier years as he had very little that reached that level and prior to Professor Chow's death, you could count them on one hand and everyone in the system knew who they were.

Are you referring to me? It sounds as if you are doubting me? :confused:
In any event, I have no interest in revealing my name on a public forum such as this. In the past I used my real name and started receiving phone calls and threatening emails by various individuals due to my teacher's (and my own) research and views.

BTW, I wouldn't call the early 90's the early years of Kara Ho. :rolleyes: Not to mention the fact that I didn't achieve all that high of rank within this system... so I don't think who I am is of much consequence.


it upsets me when people say things that are not true to any extent. Do you think all those magazines write about people without any investigation?

Yes, I do think many write things in these magazines without much investigation... The information is not hard to get.

As for the information you have posted over the last day all I can say is that there is more to the story than what has been told (there's always several sides to a story). There are many people out there who are far more senior than I who would be more than happy to "talk story" with you. All you have to do is get in touch with them in Hawaii and on the mainland. If you have an uncle who knows Charles Kuuheana I'd suggest you speak to him directly (when I spoke to him he had some interesting things to say)...

FWIW, I am no longer involved with Kempo Karate and have no interest in its politics nor am I interested in getting involved in them. Kempo has brought me many good friends and I read these forums out of personal interest and nostalgia. I share some of my experiences when I feel it's prudent or if someone asks.

KG

[Pacificshore]

Very interesting discussions. But not every system is for everybody, and as far as "truth" goes, it's what you all want to believe. It's all about your research and conclusions. In terms of Kara-Ho and if whether or not it's Professor Chow's art, then like Mr.Bishop has stated, it more than likely is, just as much as Chun's and Castro's are.

Now, Kara-Ho like any other Kempo/Kenpo system has developed over time. I'm sure all insturctors of any system puts in their own flair on things as they learn and teach. Perhaps not at the basic levels, but at the more advance levels.

If Prof. Chow taught just one kata, and took out self defense applications from it, then he just further developed his system. If in this one kata, only a set number of defense developed from it, and he did nothing else to enhance his system, then the system itself stops to grow.

I'd like to think that we as martial artist look forward to developing ourselves, and not get stuck on whether or not a system was still being taught by it's original founder. I mean it's important to know and understand the past, but like the 'ol adadge says, "onward and upward".

Everyone's decision to train in a certain system is up to each individual. What your experiences are with the system is also yours. But for those who happen to peruse the forum for information, don't let it make your final decision for you. Just my 2cents.

[CoolKempoDude]

kidkarate,

I'm very interested in hearing * everything you know about karaho* here.

pls share with us what you know ok?

thanks

[CoolKempoDude]

kara-ho is a very CONTROVERSIAL topic because it is prof chow's art.

i have heard many things and i also read people's post about kara-ho and the current grandmaster of karaho.

I want to believe in what people have to say BUT Nobody understands what was going on in this karaho thing because it is very complex and involves politics and other things.


frankly, this is one of the mysteries which we will never find out completely.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by kidkarate
And Steven Chow, never received a black belt from Professor Chow but was a black belt in a Japanese System

i read somebody's posts here about this person.

they said that he knows chow's art and you said he doesn't know chow's art

wtf is going on here?????

2 sides with different stories:confused: :soapbox:

[Rich Parsons]

Kid Karate

The Federal Government is quite large.

You being an attorney and knowing al thisinfomration, I just want to know which department do I call?

Do you have a phone number, I can call to find out about what you have sais? How about one of hte law books you say you are being taught from. I would really like to read this this federal law.

:asian:

[Matt]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
kidkarate, I do not believe that the content of a form can be "copywrite protected", as it is not necessarily "written, which is what copywrite law applies to. So that is good information. But in no case can a "System" be protected, the names of the techniques could be protected, or the name of the system could be copywritten, but not the actual techniques or forms.

Devices can be patented, but I cannot imagine a "behavior" or any pattern of motion or response, whether dance, martial arts forms, or how you mow your yard, being protected in such a way that is legally binding or valid. Can you imagine "copywriting" a ballet, not the music, which can be, but the dance itself? Hmmmm...?



Please see the 'copyright a form' thread - there is some specific info as to what can and can't be protected, and I even think they use a ballet in one of the examples.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...&threadid=11510

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Matt
Please see the 'copyright a form' thread - there is some specific info as to what can and can't be protected, and I even think they use a ballet in one of the examples.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...&threadid=11510

your link doesn't work.

[Pacificshore]

i have heard many things and i also read people's post about kara-ho and the current grandmaster of karaho.

I want to believe in what people have to say BUT Nobody understands what was going on in this karaho thing because it is very complex and involves politics and other things. [/B]




what politics and other things :confused:

[Matt]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
your link doesn't work.

Whoops, sorry. It's in the General martial arts section because it refers to two other martial arts in the example.

It's under:
MartialTalk.Com > Arts > General Martial Arts Talk > Copyrighting a kata

I'll try a link again.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11510

Matt

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Pacificshore
what politics and other things :confused:

this is a good question. I'm like you:confused: :confused:

wonder why i said "politic and other things" ??? i'm guessing;)

[Kempo Guy]

I want to believe in what people have to say BUT Nobody understands what was going on in this karaho thing because it is very complex and involves politics and other things.

When people (and often their pride) are involved, it always becomes complicated.

Sam Kuoha has the paper work to back up his claim, so I don't know what's complicated about that... I personally don't dispute this claim, however what he teaches is not pure Kara Ho. He acknowledges this as well.

I think where it gets complicated perhaps is that others feel that Sam Kuoha's art has deviated from Kara Ho enough that it has become a separate art far (or further) removed from the techniques taught by Prof. Chow. I think that really is the only (or the main) point of contention.

KG

[Pacificshore]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
When people (and often their pride) are involved, it always becomes complicated.

Sam Kuoha has the paper work to back up his claim, so I don't know what's complicated about that... I personally don't dispute this claim, however what he teaches is not pure Kara Ho. He acknowledges this as well.

I think where it gets complicated perhaps is that others feel that Sam Kuoha's art has deviated from Kara Ho enough that it has become a separate art far (or further) removed from the techniques taught by Prof. Chow. I think that really is the only (or the main) point of contention.

KG


The funny thing is everyone will hold to their opinion as to what Professor Chow's art was, is, or should be. It is the same way with Parker's Kenpo. There are so many Grandmasters of that particular system, and all believe in what, or how Parker's Kenpo should be, or has become. It falls back to the philosophy of growth and one's own vision of their art. Is this wrong?? In my opinion, I don't think so. However, there's still in-fighting amongst many of the Parker factions. So, how is this good for Parker's system? It's no wonder why many don't hang around with each other, and why should they when all the negativity just stifles one's growth in the system. Again my 2 cents.....................

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy


Sam Kuoha's art has deviated from Kara Ho enough that it has become a separate art far (or further) removed from the techniques taught by Prof. Chow. I think that really is the only (or the main) point of contention.

KG

Agree

[Grasshoppah]

Kempo Guy

Ask Sam were was he when Prof. Chow started using the name and teaching Kara-Ho in Nanakuli the west side of Oahu in a small church.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Grasshoppah
Kempo Guy

Ask Sam were was he when Prof. Chow started using the name and teaching Kara-Ho in Nanakuli the west side of Oahu in a small church.

if anybody here knows the answer for this question, please let us know here.

we begin to explorer DEEPER and DEEPER and i like that.

keep all good stuff coming. Grasshoppah , if you know the answer, please don't keep us waiting so long.

thanks:)

[Karazenpo]

The only thing I can comment on is this. Has anyone ever trained with or took a seminar from Master Bill Chun Jr.? I took a two day seminar with him and a friend of mine studies from him. I have also communicated with him on the net. He was personable, friendly & helpful and very powerful. From my brief association with him, I like him. What he teaches is exactly what I expected from everything I've read about and heard about William Chow. Imho, it is Chow's Kempo. Now, hey, I have no problem with the current grandmaster of Kara-ho as he was a brother police officer, decorated in the line of duty and an obviously highly skilled martial artist. He does admit his art of Kara-ho is now an 'eclectic' blend of several arts, many are doing that now and since he has the legal documentation to head Kara-ho then I don't think there is any question about it. I do understand the confusion, though. When I first saw Gm. Sam Kuoha perform Kara-ho with all those jump and turning kicks, I thought Professor Chow never did that, what's up? Then I saw Master Bill Chun and thought, that's Kara-ho but now I have a better insight as to what is going on. I still prefer, and its my preference only, the Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo of the Chow/Chun connection. As to me, that is the original stuff. Respectfully submitted.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Has anyone ever trained with or took a seminar from Master Bill Chun Jr.? I took a two day seminar with him and a friend of mine studies from him.

this is certainly interesting and fascinating. I have seen a lot of big names in kempo/kenpo BUT not this individual.

i ran a google search and can see he has a lot of seminars with Nick Cerios's students.

How was his seminar????

You mentioned some people in your profiles and posts. I guess your friend was Nick Cerio's student ???????

don't forget to tell us more;)

[Karazenpo]

Hey CoolKempoDude, hope all is well! Master Bill Chun Sr. and his son, Master Bill Chun Jr. were very, very close to Professor Chow. When Professor Cerio first wanted to study with Professor Chow, Mr. Ed Parker gave him an 'intro' to Master Bill Chun Sr. and Mr. Cerio began studying with Mr. Chun. Then, in turn, Master Chun Sr. gave Professor Cerio an 'intro' to William Chow and he started studying with him. That's how it was done, the 'intro' thing, sort of like vouching for someone. They wouldn't just take anyone. I thoroughly enjoyed the seminar and myself, KenpoJoe Rebelo and Sensei Matt Barnes got to go over Hansuki with Master Chun Jr. Don't get me wrong, since it was and still is a 'chosen' form he could not go over it in its entirety or in any great detail, but he took a little from the beginning, the middle and the end and only did it once so you had better pay attention if you wanted to pick up anything and he did it fast. I got to put some of the 'original' back in the version I was taught. Hansuki is a favorite form of mine so this alone made the seminar for me, if you know what I mean. KenpoJoe and Matt have the same version of Hansuki as myself and Master Chun looked at it but was not critical at all for the alterations. He stated as long as you give its original creator the credit for the form, there is nothing wrong with adding your signature moves. As each master does this down the lineage line, each is contributing something to the form which is passed on and the system continues to evolve. I know some I agree with this and some don't but I'm just relaying what he told me in an e-mail. Yes, my friend who trains under Master Chun is a Nick Cerio 5th dan, Shihan John James, very knowledgable, a gentleman and above all, a fighter. You can e-mail him at the Nick Cerio website for he knows much more about Master Chun and Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo than I. Respectfully submitted.

[CoolKempoDude]

Karazenpo ,

why is Hansuki form so special and different from other ????

what is the different between yours and original ????

a great detail pls

thanks

[jujutsu1]

I trained with William K.S. Chow from 1985 until his death. I see very little similarity to anything people are calling kenpo today. He really didn’t teach kata at least in the way most people think of it. Most of the prearranged movements were done briefly in the air then done on shields. A lot of people use Prof. Chow’s name that he considered non-student or beginner students. That would include a few big names.

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude


[/B]
why is Hansuki form so special and different from other ???? If I may jump in here,
Hansuki, is a form created for the Chow/Chun lineage. Probably created by Gm. Bill Chun Sr. and approved by Professor Chow. Professor Chow did not teach Kata himself, but encouraged his students to develop their own system and curriculum based on his teachings. When I last spoke to Gm. Bill Chun Jr. a couple years back, he credited the Professor for its creation. Some say they have seen Professor Chow performing a Hung Gar form at a tournament in San Francisco. Perhaps Hansuki!
Hansuki is a beautiful and challenging form. The Shaolin Kempo's version is different but close enough. Its signature, is rapid fire strikes with the thumb knuckle resting on the middle of the index finger (much like the Isshin Ryu fist formation) to the soft tissue targets.
what is the different between yours and original ????
No one knows the original except the practitioners of Goshinjutsu kai. And perhaps they don't know the Shaolin Kempo's version! Mr. Bill Chun Jr. is not forthcoming with his curriculum with the outsiders.

Salute,

P.S. What is the meaning of Hansuki? Anyone care to know?

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by kenmpoka


P.S. What is the meaning of Hansuki? Anyone care to know?

since you gave your answer, i don't see the reason why NOT. we care to know.

thanks.

[Karazenpo]

Brother Peter, at a seminar I remember Master Bill Chun saying, tongue in cheek, that if his father ever knew how popular Hansuki would become, he would have given it a different name. This led me to believe the from was created by Master Bill Chun Sr. and he probably went over it with Professor Chow for his final approval. Just conjecture on my part.

JuJitsu1: I totally agree with your post!

Respectfully, Shihan Joe

[Karazenpo]

Brother Peter, he stated he would have given it a BETTER name not different, my mistake. I just wanted to quote him as accurately as I remember, it was a 'better' name, lol.

[Kempo Guy]

I was given the impression by Bill Chun Jr. that the Honsuki form was created by Prof. Chow.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Kempo guy and Kazakenpo, kenmpoka, and other people

you brought an interesting thing about the form.

when and where did you meet Master Chun ????

thanks

[kenmpoka]

The last time I spoke to Mr.Chun, he vaguely translated Hansuki to "half open, half closed", refering to the change in natural weapons, such as a closed fist, to rakes, to claws, to spearhand, and so on... He did not seem too confident in his tone of voice, so I did some checking of my own. Since the original kanji is not available, and assuming the pronounciation to be correct, Hansuki does not translate to the suggested meaning. The word is in Japanese not Chinese in any dialect. In Japanese "han" means "half" and "suki" translates to gaps and openings. Put together should mean something like "half (small) openings (opportunities) or Gaps". Which matches the characteristics of the form with rapid fire strikes thru the opponent(s)'s attack (s).

I found it kind of strange for a chinese lineage to have a Japanese name for the organization (Goshinjutsu kai) and Japanese term for Kata. Mr. Kuoha does the same with his Kara-Ho which is the Japanese pronouciation of Tang Way (law), or Chinese Way or law !

Although Professor Chow_did use different Japanese and Chinese terms over the years for his systems and associations. So may be that is why !

Salute,

P.S. CoolKempoDude, I have only spoken to Mr. chun over the phone and have not met him personally. I believe Karazenpo attended one of his seminars.

[Karazenpo]

Brother Peter, I've heard of that 'Hansuki fist' (Isshin ryu style fist) but here's the part that confuses me. I learned the form in a private with now Hanshi Craig Seavey in 1977. When Craig left for California I began training under Master John Fritz (currently Mr. Villari's highest ranking black belt) and also during this period we had black belt workouts in Dedham, Ma. with Gm. Villari, not to mention other black belts from that era I had trained with. Not once did we ever do this 'Hansuki fist' in the form. The only thing I remember Mr. Villari calling the backfist in Hansuki was a 'riken', which we were told was the Japanese word for 'backfist'. I'm going to have to say that this fist style formation was put into the form years after I left the organization (1981), as far as I can attest to it was not in the original. Master Bill Chun Jr. did say the same thing about Hansuki being Professor Chow's form to me but at the seminar I distinctly remember him saying 'if my father knew this form would become so popular he would have given it a better name'. That led Hanshi Seavey and I to believe that the form was created by his father, again, just conjecture on our part. As far as Professor Chow performing a Hung Gar form in San Francisco in the 60's, I inquired for verification a couple of years ago with the Sam Kuhua organization and I was told definitely not so. See if you can run that past your original sources, it would be interesting if it were true, especially if it were taped but why would they deny it? It doesn't make sense. Respectfully submitted, Brother Joe

[kenmpoka]

Not once did we ever do this 'Hansuki fist' in the form. Hey Brother Joe,

The version I learned from Mr. Mailman Has the so called Hansuki fist formation. He is pretty stricked about not changing things in the system he teaches. He has also trained with Mr. Villari and Mr. Fred Baguely (sp?).

"Riken" or "Uraken" do mean backfist in Japanese Though.

There is Gentleman that goes by the name of 1960 from the Chun clan that posts on The Kenponet from time to time. He has a tape of the Professor performing a Hung Gar form. He also claims to have Hansuki taped. But he is not willing to share! Professor Chow might have taken up studies of forms in the latter years. After all, all his lineages teach kata as part of the curriculum.

Just a word of advise my friend; when it comes to Kenpo / Kempo, do not take anyones word to be 100% the TRUTH. Just my experience!

Salute,

P.S. Did you see Mr. Chun doing Hansuki with that Fist formation?

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Shihan John James knows much more about Master Chun and Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo than I.

do you think your friend (John James) can help us answer Hansuki form question if it is OK ?

thanks;)

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
[B

Did you see Mr. Chun doing Hansuki with that Fist formation? [/B]

based on his previous post, Mr. Chun didn't show entirely form. Just a little bit here and there.

may be, kazakenpo will answer your question better than I do.

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
do you think your friend (John James) can help us answer Hansuki form question if it is OK ?

thanks;) What questions do you have ?

[Karazenpo]

Brother Peter, Master Chun did the form so fast I was lucky to pick up what little I did. The tiger postures, by the way, are the wide kneeling stances with both tiger claw hands in front, in other words it's not that 'Black Tiger Looking Back' posture that we practice, it's straight on. and the form also closes out with that done twice while moving back. There is no salutation and closing like we have, nothing at all like that. There appeared to be more opened hand striking to the throat and face in the rapid fire sequences. There were sweeps, forearm strikes & elbows. Again, there were also similarities and you could pick out some of the things we do in our version. I didn't notice the 'Hansuki fist' but then again I wasn't looking for it either. I am positive, however, that neither Seavey, Fritz or Villari taught it to us back then. I left in 1981 and never heard of it. This also goes for many black belts of that era I trained with. I'm sure Bill Mailman teaches the original like you stated but the question would be, from what time line or generation of black belts? In other words, I would have to say that this fist formation was added later on in the system and would explain why the older black belts never heard of it.
CoolKempoDude: I believe you wanted to know the meaning of the word Hansuki. It will be interesting to tell you that I was on the same quest for many years. I asked Professor Cerio, he was never told either and didn't know. Master John Fritz used to call it 7 Death Strikes of the Tiger, however, the only one who came up with an answer for me was Brother Peter Teymourez, so in all due respect he should answer that one for you!
Back to that fellow 1960. Yes, I have read some of his posts and found them to be very interesting. However, my question would be this. Hansuki, since it was given to Cerio and since that was in the mid-to late 60's (around the time of its inception or close to it, I believe) seems to have laways been this 'chosen' or secretive form. So, why would either Chow or Chun ever give permission for someone to film it, never mind even perform the whole thing in front of an outsider? Know what I mean? Peter, see if you can find out more from '1960', I'm curious. Respectfully submitted.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo

Professor Cerio was never told either and didn't know.

are you sure he didn't really know ??????

it is really interesting. Cerio learned this form from GM Chun Sr and didn't know what the REAL meaning of this form title is?????
:confused: :confused:

i guess Cerio DID not want to tell you what it means?????

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
What questions do you have ?

do you think that you can ADD OTHER information about this form in this thread if you haven't done so???

i have many questions but i'm not sure where to start. If you tell me more about this form, perhaps you will answer some of my questions or i'll ask you and other some questions down the line

[Karazenpo]

CoolKempoDude, No, I'm absolutely positive that Professor Cerio did not know. Reason: We worked on it together trying to translate it for a little while. This was around 1992, give or take. Nick was the type of guy if he didn't want to say then he would tell you just that rather than bulls..t you, lol. Look at it this way, many of us learned it from Villari but were never told it's meaning either and why? because if Mr. Cerio didn't know what it mean't then rest assure neither did Fred. That's why John Fritz referred to it as '7 death Strikes of the Tiger". I remember when I told that to Professor Cerio, he felt that no way was that the translation. Brother Peter will fill you in. Out of all my searching, Peter was the only one I found that knew it. That's how we met several years ago.

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
because if Mr. Cerio didn't know what it mean't then rest assure neither did Fred.

Peter was the only one I found that knew it. That's how we met several years ago.

there is my question.

Cerio learned the *original* form FROM GM Chun SR and did not know the meaning of its title

how Brother Peter knows the title of this form even though he didn't learn the *original* ????

i don't want to be disrespectful to Peter. That is my question.

it's really confusing

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
That's why John Fritz referred to it as '7 death Strikes of the Tiger". I remember when I told that to Professor Cerio, he felt that no way was that the translation.

did he tell you why he felt that way ??? did he offer you any "alternative" answer ????




Brother Peter will fill you in. Out of all my searching, Peter was the only one I found that knew it. That's how we met several years ago.

will love to read more. Thank you for sharing

[Karazenpo]

No problem, CoolKempo, you have always been respectful in your posts. I understand what you mean though. I'm sure Brother Peter won't take it the wrong way. He's 'cool' too, lol. Okay, Peter can fill you in on how he found out, it may have been from Master Chun, I really don't recall but the meaning is "Open & Closed Hands", the changing of the hands from closed fist to the tiger claw, etc.

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Karazenpo [/B][ The tiger postures, by the way, are the wide kneeling stances with both tiger claw hands in front, in other words it's not that 'Black Tiger Looking Back' posture that we practice, it's straight on. and the form also closes out with that done twice while moving back.]
B. Joe, I am not sure what you mean, but when I drop to a close kneel or a wide kneel, the claws are in front of my body (my body is reverse kneeling stance) as positional check or already delivered strikes to the groin then the high one becomes a check). We do finish with those claws as well in the end. The salutation and breathing exercises were probably Villari's doing. It does not matter if the natural weapons or targets vary from version to version as long as the pattern and ideas are the same. YOU can change the last claws to ridge hand strikes, but the idea remains pretty much intact(almost).

I don't think Cerio was taught the whole form. The form was demonstrated, probably still in its embryonic stage and completed later as well (don't you think it is possible!).
Peter, see if you can find out more from '1960', I'm curious.I would not put too much stock in what he says bro.

In any case Joe, we are practicing and teaching Shaolin Kempo not Goshinjutsu Kai Kempo. we can be different!

Salute,

P.S. CoolKempoDude, I think I have aready answered your question on the translation of the name. I don't think anyone else have any ideas! What system of Kempo do you study?

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
No problem, CoolKempo, you have always been respectful in your posts. I understand what you mean though. I'm sure Brother Peter won't take it the wrong way. He's 'cool' too, lol. Okay, Peter can fill you in on how he found out, it may have been from Master Chun, I really don't recall but the meaning is "Open & Closed Hands", the changing of the hands from closed fist to the tiger claw, etc.
No Bro, the meaing can not be what I was told! Please refer back to my post on the translation of Hansuki.

Neither "Sho Tung Kwok" means "Hands and feet in Harmony"! This is the disservice of Mr. Villari passing out incorrect info. Since the Kanji are not available we will never know. I just call the form by the english name. I suppose Mr. Fritz was as frustrated as I was and gave his form a logical name! How about Nung lees? They have no meaning either! No one knows including Mr. V himself. Either incorrect pronounciation or Jibrish (sp?)

Joe, call me when you get a chance.

Salute,

[Karazenpo]

Yes, Peter. We do the reverse kneeling postion in Shaolin Kempo but in Master Chun's it was a forward kneeling postion with the circling tiger claw hands. "Black Tiger Looking Back" is just a Kung Fu term I picked up in the Five Animals set that describes our kneeling stance in Hansuki. Yeah, I forgot about the ridge hands. When Master Chun did the form he used a straight ridge hand to the groin and pull back where we use the same technique as in the ending of 5 pinan. I believe it was a favorite of Master Funakoshi? CoolKempoDude, No, Professor Cerio didn't have an explaination. I did some digging in martial arts books and in Robert Trias's 'The Hand is My Sword' I came up with a translation meaning four openings and we threw that around for a while trying to figure something out. Hon (that's how I spelled it at the time instead of Han) meaning four and Suki meaning openings. I was thinking at the time 'the four openings or pathways?????' maybe to spritual unity.....Body, mind, spirit & breath? or hard/soft, linear/hard? Hey, I was reaching a little but the Professor said the form did have those characteristics and he wrote that down on a pad. The, we just forgot about it. That was it!

[Karazenpo]

Brother Peter, I just got your post after I already posted. Okay, I'll be giving you a call soon.

[Karazenpo]

Peter Teymourez wrote:


I don't think Cerio was taught the whole form. The form was demonstrated, probably still in its embryonic stage and completed later as well (don't you think it is possible


Yes, Bro, I agree! I feel the form could very well have been revised from what Cerio had but Professor Cerio did tell me the original he was taught had sweeps, forearms and elbows that Villari deleted. Bill Chun did the elbows and forearms that day I noticed and I remembered what the Professor had said. Also the horse stance with the double punches and poison hand strikes sequence, Cerio stated to me that Villari added that. Who knows?? lol. "Joe"

[Kempo Guy]

when and where did you meet Master Chun ????

I met Bill Chun Jr. at the gathering in Vegas a few years ago. I went there for the express purpose to meet him. We (my teacher and I) have also had other communications (primarily by email) with him and a couple of his students prior to this.


Regarding forms taught by Prof. Chow, I was told there were a total of four forms he taught at the time of his death.

The last form he "created" seems to be "Kwai Sun" (and is performed radically different from Sam Kuoha's version).
Mr. Chun confirmed the existance of this form as well as he apparently saw this form performed for the first time in 1987 (only a few months prior to professor's death). I am unsure of what the other forms were called (I have only seen Kwai Sun and the second form), but I have a sneaky suspicion that Hansuki was one of them. I am hoping to meet with Mr. Chun again sometime in the future to see if he recognizes the second form (unfortunately we were never shown or taught the third and fourth form).

I do know that in addition to Hansuki and Kwai Sun, Prof. Chow taught two other "forms" called the free motion 25 and 45 man attack.

KG

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy

Regarding forms taught by Prof. Chow, I was told there were a total of four forms he taught at the time of his death.

The last form he "created" seems to be "Kwai Sun" (and is performed radically different from Sam Kuoha's version).
Mr. Chun confirmed the existance of this form as well as he apparently saw this form performed for the first time in 1987 (only a few months prior to professor's death). I am unsure of what the other forms were called (I have only seen Kwai Sun and the second form), but I have a sneaky suspicion that Hansuki was one of them. I am hoping to meet with Mr. Chun again sometime in the future to see if he recognizes the second form (unfortunately we were never shown or taught the third and fourth form).

I do know that in addition to Hansuki and Kwai Sun, Prof. Chow taught two other "forms" called the free motion 25 and 45 man attack.

KG

it is getting fascinating every day. If you have anything NEW, please let us know.

I never meet Mr Chun BUT i'll love to see him in the future. Who knows ??? I meet you at Gathering of Eagles. Cool

[Karazenpo]

Hey Peter, I didn't read your post on the definition until now. You know how it is, sometimes when we post around the same time this happens and we miss each other's post. I would have to say then your interpretation of what Master Chun said would give Hansuki that 'possible' meaning. I too, if you read my later post found 'opening' (Suki) in the translation and Hon to mean four. I know about what you mean about Mr. Villari but I will say this about Sho Tung Kwok. When we went over that form in Dedham, he stated it was the first in the series of Chinese forms, Sho, I would say meaning one or first, Tung or Tun, could that be equivilent to Tae (foot or feet) and Kwok, hands? So you have hands and feet as one? or hands and feet in harmony? Hey, You know as yourself , I have my differences of opinions with Mr. Villari but I can't let that influence everything he does or did, he may and I say 'may' be right on that. I was once told and I honestly don't remember who, isn't it strange of Hansuki being a Japanese name for a Chinese style form allegedly created by a Chinese Hawaiian? But then I thought, isn't Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo Karate a Japanese name for Chinese influenced style? So, it no longer sounded that strange to me, lol. Respectfully, Brother Joe

[kenmpoka]

[QUO [/B][/QUOTE]
I too, if you read my later post found 'opening' (Suki) in the translation and Hon to mean four.
Hey Bro,
From what language are you translating "Hon". Chinese or Japanese? In Japanese "Yon" means "four" not "Hon".

about Sho Tung Kwok. When we went over that form in Dedham, he stated it was the first in the series of Chinese forms, Sho, I would say meaning one or first, Tung or Tun, could that be equivilent to Tae (foot or feet) and Kwok, hands? So you have hands and feet as one? or hands and feet in harmony? Sho or So in Chinese mean "hand" . There is a pronounciation of the word "and" that vaguely resembles "Tun". But "kwok" does not mean "feet" nor "harmony"!In any dialect.

Salute,

[CoolKempoDude]

kenmpoka,

which version of Hansuki do you teach???

Mr Villari's version ????

[Karazenpo]

Sho or So in Chinese mean "hand" . There is a pronounciation of the word "and" that vaguely resembles "Tun". But "kwok" does not mean "feet" nor "harmony"!In any dialect.

No argument there, Peter but what I was doing was seeing if by any creative means that someone made the English term fit the name of the form. Sho as in shodan could also mean one or first. Now, take Tae Kwon Do, there has been many variations of martial arts terminology over the years, some correct from different dialects but others just mistakes that took life and became accepted. Kenpo & Kempo, Pinan, pinian, pinion, etc. Kwon and kwok could be just one of those examples. I admit, 'tun' or 'tung' I was reaching for but I know there are many dialects and variations as stated above, and as far as this form goes it has been spelled several different ways over several decades so who knows? Look at the different spellings of 'Nenglis'! Hands & Feet in Harmony or Hands & Feet as One. I was being a bit 'abstract' as in the Chinese arts in attempting to make the connection. As far as 'hon' goes, as I stated in my previous post, I found that along with 'suki' in the glossary of terminology in the 1973 reprint of Robert Trias's book, 'The Hand is my Sword'. If I recall, I'd have to check, 'hon' was with another word, for ex., let's say it was the Japanese word for 'finger', and it was describing a 'four finger strike'. It went something like that but you get my drift anyway. 'Suki', I recall, in the same glossary translated to 'opening'. Keep in mind, these names were created very early on in the arts by Mr. Villari and others. At that time, martial artists were very inexperienced with the oriental languages and many mistakes were made in attempting to utilize them. Some used titles, that they found out later were not at all what they thought they mean't. Some were really quite amusing!, lol. I heard once that some guy was going around with a title that actually mean't something like 'sh.t head', lol. Respectfully, Brother Joe

[kenmpoka]

[/B][/QUOTE]
Sho as in shodan could also mean one or first. Hey Joe,
"Shodan", "first level" is in Japanese. On the other hand "sho tun Kwok" is supposed to be Chinese. No relations there betwwen "sho" "first" in Japanese and "So" or "sho", "hand" in Chinese.
If I recall, I'd have to check, 'hon' was with another word, for ex., let's say it was the Japanese word for 'finger', and it was describing a 'four finger strike'

In japanese "four finger spearhand or swordhand" is "yohon or yonhon nukite"."two finger poke" is "nihon nukite" . "hon" by itself does not mean "four".
Keep in mind, these names were created very early on in the arts by Mr. Villari and others. At that time, martial artists were very inexperienced with the oriental languages and many mistakes were made in attempting to utilize them Then they should have stuck with what they knew and not make a mockery of the system. They could have easily used Kata 7, 8, and so on...
How would a student feel announcing his form in front of a few Chinese masters...My name is.... and my form is
"sho tung Kwok". Whaaaaat?

I am not trying to be stubborn, just trying to bring out the facts. Perfect example of inexperienced martial artists becoming "founders" and "sokes" and "Grandmasters"...

Salute,

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
kenmpoka,

which version of Hansuki do you teach???

Mr Villari's version ????
Yes, Mr. Villari's version.

[Karazenpo]

Yes, but Peter, Sho being Japanese and Tun Kwok supposedly Chinese is my point of mistakes made in those early years due to inexperience in this field. Someone else said about Hansuki, "Why did a Chinese-Hawaiian give a Japanese name to a Chinese form?" but I say look at the system it came from: Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo. That's a Japanese name if I ever heard one, lol! How many books have been published that use the term Chinese Karate, Ed Parker is one name that comes to mind on that one! If you wish to get technical what's 'Shaolin' Kempo Karate, using that measuring stick as Sho Tung Kwok it should be referred to as 'Shorinji' Kempo Karate, true?
Peter, I definitely have 'hon' as four in the book The Hand is My Sword to the best of my memory. What I will do is check out the book this weekend (it's in my Blackstone school) and will post exactly what it says. Brother Peter, you're fun when you're stubborn!!!!!!!!!!!, LOL. Take care, "Joe"

I totally agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!on your quote below:

"I am not trying to be stubborn, just trying to bring out the facts. Perfect example of inexperienced martial artists becoming "founders" and "sokes" and "Grandmasters"...

[Karazenpo]

Oh, and one more thing Peter-Excellent discussion!

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo is a Japanese name if I ever heard one

why do you think it is a japanese name ?????

[Karazenpo]

Hi CoolKempo, It is Japanese. Goshinjitsu or Goshinjutsu means protection of the body or self or in other words "self defense" in Japanese. Kai is school, association, etc. Kempo (Fist law) of course is the Japanese translation of Chuan Fa (Fist way). Have a nice weekend, I'm outta here! "Joe'

[Matt]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
why do you think it is a japanese name ?????

Goshin= Japanese for Self Defense
Jitsu/Jutsu= Japanese for Techniques
Chinese=you can figure that one out:)
Kempo= Japanese for Chuan Fa (Fist Method)
Kai=Japanese for School (as in organization, not necessarily the building)

Matt

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
[/B]
Sho being Japanese and Tun Kwok supposedly Chinese is my point of mistakes made in those early years due to inexperience in this field Then why keep on making that mistake, now that we know better! Why not just call it "hands and Feet in Harmony". Why call "pinan" "pinian or pinion" or any other wrong terms when we now know better!
Someone else said about Hansuki, "Why did a Chinese-Hawaiian give a Japanese name to a Chinese form? I said it.
Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo. That's a Japanese name Because Kenpo is influenced by the Japanese arts as well. Because it is in the lineage of Kosho-ryu/Kenpo jiujutsu.
I definitely have 'hon' as four in the book The Hand is My Sword to the best of my memory. Then the book is wrong my friend. Please see the followings:
numbers and numerical sets:

ichi - ipponme - one- first
ni- nihonme - two - second
san - sanbonme - three - third
shi (yo,yon) - yonhonme - four - fourth
go - gohonme - five - fifth
roku - ropponme - six - sixth
shichi (nana) - nanahonme - seven - seventh
hachi - hachihonme(happonme) - eight - eigth
ku (koo) - kuhonme - nine - ninth
Joo (ju) - Juhonme - ten - tenth

Ippon kumite - 1 step sparring
sanbon kumite - 3 step sparring
gohon kumite - 5 step sparring
How many books have been published that use the term Chinese Karate, Ed Parker is one name that comes to mind on that one! If you wish to get technical what's 'Shaolin' Kempo Karate, using that measuring stick as Sho Tung Kwok it should be referred to as 'Shorinji' Kempo Karate, true? not quite, Karate (tode), and chuan fa (quan fa, ken fat), all share the same exact kanji both in japanese and chinese, just different pronounciation.
"sho" in japanese and the character of "hand" in chinese don't.
Same goes for "Shaolin". Same character in both languages.
Chinese karate is the english way of writting and pronouncing the kanji. Karate can be said both in Japanese, and the chinese chuan fa. Besides, karate was known, but chuan fa not so common.
Shorin-ji in japanese means "shaolin temple" in chinese "shaolin tsu" all share the same kanji.

May be we should get back to Kara-ho Kenpo!

Salute my friend,

[Matt]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Karate (tode), and chuan fa (quan fa, ken fat), all share the same exact kanji both in japanese and chinese, just different pronounciation.

May be we should get back to Kara-ho Kenpo!



I agree with most of your post, but:

The kanji for karate is not the same as for kempo/chuan fa. If it was, we'd never get books like "Karate Kenpo" by Mizhuo Mutsu. How would we know?

Karate (old characters) / toide = kara + te (hand) = same characters (chinese/tang hand)

Karate (as in new style) =empty hand.
They used the Kara (empty) homonym to remove the evidence of chinese influence as part of the requirements to be admitted to the Butokukai.

Kempo= ken + ho = fist method (japanese)

Chuan Fa = fist method (or law)

Just a minor bit of anal-retentiveness on my part.

Matt

[Kempo Guy]

Karate (old characters) / toide = kara + te (hand) = same characters (chinese/tang hand)

FWIW,
To = T'ang (referencing the T'ang dynasty), but can be pronounced "Kara"

Also, Ken - po is as you suggest the characters, fist and method (or law). This of course all depends on the kanji as some sword styles also use the term kenpo, however in this instance using the kanji 'ken' meaning 'sword'. :)



May be we should get back to Kara-ho Kenpo!
Agreed. I have never seen the Honsuki form as taught by the Villari / Cerio lineages. What are the primary characteristics of the form? Just curious to see if it has kept some of the characteristics as displayed in Kara Ho.

KG

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Matt
Matt

The kanji for karate is not the same as for kempo/chuan fa. If it was, we'd never get books like "Karate Kenpo" by Mizhuo Mutsu. How would we know? Yes I know that, that is why I wrote: Karate (tode), "to" for "tang", the way Okinawan pronounced "tang".
For Japanese karate the character "kara" is "empty".

Also as mentioned the sword charater "ken" is different that "fist".

Goshin: Go (strong, hard), Shin (mind, heart, serious, real ), the latter depending on the kanji used. Hense "Goshin" to take a strong stance, as in self defense."jutsu", "techniques" (just answering a previous post).

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy


KG [/B]
I have never seen the Honsuki form as taught by the Villari / Cerio lineages. What are the primary characteristics of the form? Just curious to see if it has kept some of the characteristics as displayed in Kara Ho.
The form is essentially the same with some parts missing and altered in Villari's version and breathing exercises added to Villari's.

Salute,

[marshallbd]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Tonight I just noticed in the newest issue of Martial Art that there's a big write up on Kara-ho Kenpo. Just thought I would throw this out.:asian: Where can I buy a copy of this magazine? I have never seen it and would like an alternative read to BlackBelt...

Speaking of Magazines.....is there or has there ever been a magazine specific to Kenpo like the one for TKD?

[Seig]

Marshall,
Check into the Martial Talk magazine as well.

[Karazenpo]

quote: Sho being Japanese and Tun Kwok supposedly Chinese is my point of mistakes made in those early years due to inexperience in this field
Then why keep on making that mistake, now that we know better! Why not just call it "hands and Feet in Harmony". Why call "pinan" "pinian or pinion" or any other wrong terms when we now know better!

Peter, because when something has been perpetuated for so long it becomes traditon, like the mispelling by Mitose of Kenpo, it is now commonly accepted. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that saying, "If a lie is told enough of times, it becomes the truth." I don't mean that at all but does it really matter if a system as Shaolin Kempo wishes to call their forms pinan. As a matter of fact, Gm. Pesare went back to the original names of the Karazenpo forms and has changed them from katas to pinans to better observe tradition. So what, does it really hurt anyone or matter? Can't it be accepted just as historians now accept the two spellings of kempo/kenpo. Here's my spin on it. Whether you call the first form in Karazenpo, kata, pinan, set or form, once mastered, that punch, kick or palm heel can take your head off, lol, and that's good enough for me.

Yes, Peter, I did know the literal translation for Goshinjitsu/jutsu but then I found it wasn't used in the literal sense but as a Japanese term for self defense. I now remember,lol, it was you that told me about a Chinese/Hawaiian giving a Japanese name to a Chinese form in a phone conversation with you,lol.

I enjoy researching the history and so forth and finding true and accurate answers but like I said, Mr. Villari created the form, we wouldn't be talking about it or practicing it if he hadn't, so if the creator wants to call it Sho Tung Kwok than that is his perrogative and who are we to change the name? Who may better name the form than its creator? It's not our form. It's his baby! I may not agree with him on other issues, as yourself, but I can't see how we can take that away from him. No what I mean? Also I'm curious now to look that up in Trais's book. When I do I'll post what it says. Peter, can you e-mail me your phone number again, I have it somewhere but it'll save me the trouble of trying to find it. Thanks. Respectfully, Joe

PS: I still say Shaolin Kempo Karate is the same thing, Shaolin-a Chinese term describing-Kempo Karate, a Japanese art, so there!!!!!!!!!!!!l LOL.

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Karazenpo [QUOTE]Peter, because when something has been perpetuated for so long it becomes traditon, like the mispelling by Mitose of Kenpo, it is now commonly accepted Excuse my french bro, then screw that false tradition! It is our job as senior instructors(!) to correct the mistakes that our predecessors made and bring back credibility to our system so it is respected by all and not just by bunch of illiterates.
Yes, Peter, I did know the literal translation for Goshinjitsu/jutsu but then I found it wasn't used in the literal sense but as a Japanese term for self defense. I was just answering someone elses post.
As a matter of fact, Gm. Pesare went back to the original names of the Karazenpo forms and has changed them from katas to pinans to better observe tradition. So what, does it really hurt anyone or matter? In my opinion utterly wrong. The Pinan forms already exists in certain enbusen (pattern). If it was otherwise it would not be any problem. It takes away credibility from our system. Why not be creative and use a good name. The usage of the name "pinan" for SKK's Pinan 1, 2 is WRONG. For 3, 4, 5 is correct. Kajus' were wrong as well and that is why they were changed. Incidentally the new name makes much more sense "palama sets". KEMPO / KENPO, the usage of both these spellings are correct and accepted in Japanese language regardless of what Mr. Mitose did.
I still say Shaolin Kempo Karate is the same thing, Shaolin-a Chinese term describing-Kempo Karate, a Japanese art, so there The name "Shaolin Kempo Karate" was chosen for two reasons:

1) "Shaolin" is referring to the Shaolin Temple were it all started! We also use this term in english as oppose to "shorin-ji" or "shorin".
2) "Shaolin" is also used because we teach the shaolin inspired five animal forms and techniques.

KEMPO KARATE is our lineage to GMs.Mitose, Chow, and Emperado.
Mr. Villari created the form, we wouldn't be talking about it or practicing it if he hadn't, so if the creator wants to call it Sho Tung Kwok than that is his perrogative and who are we to change the name? We are couple of educated martial artists that know a lot more than Mr. V when he started. We don't need to make or follow the old mistakes! He can call his creation by any name, but he may not pass it as CHINESE. JIBRISH ok.

Check your e-mail for my #.

Salute,

P.S. Trias' book specially the first printing was full of mistakes and exaggerations. Please do a search on this forum for further info.

[Karazenpo]

Peter, yes Bro, I do know that #1 & #2 pinans were derived from the first three Taikyoku forms, as a matter of fact it was you a few years ago who enlightened me on #2 Pinan! I had known #1 was taken from Oyama's system from his training in Shotokan but I didn't know that #2 was a 'hybrid' of that series. Here's a question, though, how about #4 Kata in SKK, that is actually a modified version of Okinawan Pinan #1/Shotokan Heian#2! My book is not from the first printing of The Hnad is My Sword. I think the first printing was in 1957 (?), my copy is from the revised 1973 printing. I'm leaving right now to check it out. Also, no, I didn't get your e-mail. Let me check for blocked numbers, maybe at one time when I was deleting my old inbox messages I accidentally hit block, it's right next to the delete on hotmail. I don't have time to go through it now, I have to meet someone at the school but I'll check it later today. Again, as always Bro, great discussion. By the way, I do see your points but sometimes I also like to play the devil's advocate, it leads to a more thorough discussion, lol. Take care, Brother Joe

[Kempo Guy]

Karazenpo,


I do know that #1 & #2 pinans were derived from the first three Taikyoku forms

Uhhh, are the pinan forms of SKK different than the Okinawan or Japanese versions? I ask because the Taikyoku kata (as taught in Shotokan derived arts) are 'basic' kata pulled out of the pinan forms.

It sounds to me that the Pinan's as taught within your system does not follow the same pattern as the pinan/heian forms in Okinawa/Japan (or am I just confused)? BTW, there are five pinan kata in Okinawan Karate (generally in the Shorin ryu traditions)...

KG

[Karazenpo]

Kempo Guy & Peter,

First , Brother Peter, I just checked out The Hand is My Sword. It is the 1973 revised printing. In the glossary under 'H' it has the term 'hon ken' , next to it is the definition: 'four wrist-fist'. That's all I can tell you about that Peter, but that's where i got it. "Suki", I thought I read it in the same book but I was mistaken. It was another book I have but the name eludes me right now, the definition was, however, 'opening'.

Kempo Guy, I will trace back the lineage for you in Shaolin Kempo to explain the origins of the pinans used, this will clear up any confusion. Okay, Gm. S. George Pesare learned from Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon. Sijo Gascon learned from Sifu John Leoning who was of Sijo Adriano Emperado's Kajukenbo system. Gm. Pesare taught Professor Nick Cerio and in turn Professor Cerio taught Gm. Fred Villari. In the mid 60's when Professor Cerio was still training at Gm. Pesare's school, Gm. Pesare decided to add Taikyoku shodan which was adopted from the system of Mas Oyama. (Oyama was a Korean who studied Shotokan, Goju ryu, Chinese Kempo-the actual kung fu version and judo). This was done to add a form for beginners that would have been easier to learn than Karazenpo's first form which you know as #1 kata. For a reason I do not as of yet know this form was named #1 Pinan, possibly because the Kajukenbo forms at the time were called pinans. That would be my educated guess. Later, after Professor Cerio branched out on his own he used the Taikyoku series of shodan, nidan and sandan from Oyama's system (these were beginner forms of Shotokan origin, called the 'first cause forms' or the student's 'first look' at Shotokan.) and created what he called #2 Pinan, a 'hybrid' which is the seond form in SKK. Professor Cerio than adopted Oyama's versions of #3, #4 & #5 to complete the 5 pinan series. As Brother Peter stated, 3-5 were accurate names for these katas. #'s 3, 4 & 5 go back to the orignal 5 pinan series of Okinawan karate. In Shotokan they are called the Heian series. An interesting note I mentioned in a previous post is that Cerio at the time could not teach the exact pinan series anyway, even if he wanted to, as at the time he was teaching Karazenpo and it would conflict with Karazenpo's original kata series. The reason, Karazenpo's fourth form which is #4 Kata of SKK is actually a modified version of Okinawan Pinan #1. When Master Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan he called this series 'Heian' which I believe stood for 'peaceful shrine' and pinan meaning 'peaceful mind', a form of moving meditation. He then reversed the sequence of numbers one and two because he felt Okinawan Pinan #1 was too difficult to be given first in that series. Perhaps Brother Peter, who is also very knowledgable on this can add something here that I may have missed. I believe Peter and I are on the same page on this part of kempo history.
Respectfully submitted.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Karazenpo
Kempo Guy & Peter,

...I just checked out The Hand is My Sword. It is the 1973 revised printing. In the glossary under 'H' it has the term 'hon ken' , next to it is the definition: 'four wrist-fist'.
Just checked the Japanese dictionary on the web. It lists "hon" as a prefix meaning (among others) "main" or "head". This leads me to believe that Mr. Trias meant "fore-wrist fist" rather than "four wrist-fist".

[Karazenpo]

Randy, that could very well be it! Thanks. Like Peter stated there were many mistakes. Also Peter, no, I did not get your e-mail and I checked to make sure I hadn't accidentally blocked you. I don't get it. We had this problem before, remember? I just sent you a private e-mail from hotmail let me know if you get it. "Joe"

[kenmpoka]

[i]Originally posted by Karazenpo
[QUOTE] Here's a question, though, how about #4 Kata in SKK, that is actually a modified version of Okinawan Pinan #1/Shotokan Heian#2! Only the opening sequense of these forms are the same, with different bunkai. The idea tho, came from pinan/heian.
Also, no, I didn't get your e-mail. Let me check for blocked numbers, maybe at one time when I was deleting my old inbox messages I accidentally hit block, it's right next to the delete on hotmail. I did e-mail you my # yesterday and this morning responded to your e-mail as "I got it". Anyway you can find my # on my website.

Here are some terminologies pertaining to FIST:

Seiken (genko)- fore-knuckle fist
Hira ken- four finger fist (leopard fist)
yoko ken- horizontal fist
Tate ken- vertical fist
gyaku ken - inverted fist (back two knuckle)
uraken (riken)- back fist
ippon ken- index-knuckle fist
nakadaka ken- middle knucke fist.aka, dragon head or phoenix fist
Kakuto- bent wrist, fore-wrist or crane strike

I don't know about "four wrist"! Only got two.LOL

Salute,

[Michael Billings]

But isn't "The ankle is the wrist of the foot" Yellow Belt saying applicable here? :D

Whoops, that is an EPAK thing.

Oss,
-Michael

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
But isn't "The ankle is the wrist of the foot" Yellow Belt saying applicable here? :D

Whoops, that is an EPAK thing.

Oss,
-Michael Oh yeah, I forgot about those. Aren't those sayings great!
My Favorites are: Right...but left...., Ears are eyes..., and the best of all, hesitate...meditate...

Osu,

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
But isn't "The ankle is the wrist of the foot" Yellow Belt saying applicable here? :D



i'm totally lost.:confused: :confused:

it'd be nice if you can explain why you wrote this in a cleaner manner.

[Karazenpo]

I was thinking tonight (no comments,lol) over a' few' beers and the 'hon' thing in Honsuki is really a moot point. What I mean is the actually spelling is not even Honsuki, right? it's Hansuki, so what are we discussing? We're basing everything on a mispelling in the first place. The other thing is #4 kata in SKK. #4 kata is no more altered than the original Hansuki is with SSK's Honsuki and Nick Cerio's Cat #5 (his version of Hansuki), just ask Shihans John James and Rick Chamberlain! As far as the bunkai goes I'll say this.....I have a collection of martial art magazines over the years I keep for nostalgia (sp.?) and reference. One of them has the bunkai of Okinawan pinan #1 which is Karazenpo's and Shaolin Kempo's fourth form and the application is the same as what Gm. George Pesare gives us! I will also say, the original Karazenpo version from Mr. Gascon to Mr. Pesare is not the same as Mr. Villari's version, not radically altered but definitely different. Whether he altered it or Nick Cerio I do not know. Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras

[Karazenpo]

I would also like to state as far as debating over the name of a form. Senior Grandmaster S. George Pesare created a drill into a from in the month of February so what did he call it? 'The February Drill', who cares!, it's a great form and the name is only a way to catorgorize it, that's it! So whether its called pinan, kata set, form or drill, who really cares as long it is productive and functional. In all due respect, instead of feeling we're infringing on some traditonal off limits area by calling a particular form a pinan, what really difference does it make? And to be honest if Fred Villari created Sho Tung Kwok, and we know he did, he could call it "Harold" if he wanted too, it's his form, lol. Respectfully, Shihan Joe

[John Bishop]

Simple fact of life. History is made as it occurs. After the fact it is imposible to go back and correct or change it.

[kenmpoka]

Joe buddy,
looks like you had one too many! Why do you keep going back to your original statements once we have explored and agreed on the correct way! "Honsuki", you mentioned that one of your teachers spelled it that way, and based on that spelling translated it to something else. Right! "Hansuki" is the correct way of spelling.

Since when is Mr. Pesare's title Senior GM? Doesn't that belong to his teacher? Just curious.

As a good teacher you are obligated to pass on the correct information to your students. Believe me, the smart ones will question and blame you if otherwise. Don't be bound to mistakes just because they were made from ignorance and we know better now.. What is wrong, is wrong.


to be honest if Fred Villari created Sho Tung Kwok, and we know he did, he could call it "Harold" if he wanted too, it's his form, lol.
Again, why are you insisting on this? What is his is his, but it is not in CHINESE! Why don't you call him and ask him. May be his excellency will have an answer! I doubt it though.

In regards to your comments on infringement of some off limit name Pinan, why don't we call BMW, CHEVY from here on just because we want to!

Whats up with the e-mail thing?. Don't make me come to your neck of woods.LOL
Seriously though, its all in good.

Salute.

[Karazenpo]

Hey Peter, I knew you were going to say I had one too many but the truth of the matter is, I did!!!!!!! LOL. No, I do agree on the proper spelling of Hansuki with the 'a' but the Villari system spells it with the 'o' what I mean't was since it is a mispelling in the first place the true definition of 'hon' which we were pursuing wouldn't matter anyway. No what I mean? (I haven't had a beer yet,l ol). As far as e-mailing Mr. Villari's organization with questions I have in the past and even left a phone number but never got a response. my opinion on Sho Tung Kwok is simply he created it he can call it what he wants whether the name makes sense or not, just like parents can name their kids with whatever name they choose, remember 'Moon-Unit' Zapper!, lol. We may not agree but I feel its their write. master Chun told me for instance if someone alters a form such as Hansuki, that's okay with him but they should always give credit to the creator of the form and always refer to it as Hansuki.
Mr. Pesare has the title of Senior Grandmaster as in regards to 'senority' within the Kaito Gakko. It simply distinguishes him as the senior instructor over the other grandmasters in the organization. I would believe also that even so, being in Kempo for almost four and a half decades of continuous study, teaching and overall propagation of the art along with his ageand being the undisputed New England founder would most definitely qualify him as a Senior Grandmaster in Karazenpo.

Gotta go. As a matter of fact I'm heading over to his school now with Hanshi Craig Seavey for some 'bladefighting'. Take care, bro, always a pleasure even when we disagree! We really should hook up someday! By the way, between us, do you remember something about a 'buffoon'?, LOL! I thought you'd like that one! God bless! "Joe"

[Gentle Fist]

Kempo Guy & Peter,

First , Brother Peter, I just checked out The Hand is My Sword. It is the 1973 revised printing. In the glossary under 'H' it has the term 'hon ken' , next to it is the definition: 'four wrist-fist'. That's all I can tell you about that Peter, but that's where i got it. "Suki", I thought I read it in the same book but I was mistaken. It was another book I have but the name eludes me right now, the definition was, however, 'opening'.

Kempo Guy, I will trace back the lineage for you in Shaolin Kempo to explain the origins of the pinans used, this will clear up any confusion. Okay, Gm. S. George Pesare learned from Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon. Sijo Gascon learned from Sifu John Leoning who was of Sijo Adriano Emperado's Kajukenbo system. Gm. Pesare taught Professor Nick Cerio and in turn Professor Cerio taught Gm. Fred Villari. In the mid 60's when Professor Cerio was still training at Gm. Pesare's school, Gm. Pesare decided to add Taikyoku shodan which was adopted from the system of Mas Oyama. (Oyama was a Korean who studied Shotokan, Goju ryu, Chinese Kempo-the actual kung fu version and judo). This was done to add a form for beginners that would have been easier to learn than Karazenpo's first form which you know as #1 kata. For a reason I do not as of yet know this form was named #1 Pinan, possibly because the Kajukenbo forms at the time were called pinans. That would be my educated guess. Later, after Professor Cerio branched out on his own he used the Taikyoku series of shodan, nidan and sandan from Oyama's system (these were beginner forms of Shotokan origin, called the 'first cause forms' or the student's 'first look' at Shotokan.) and created what he called #2 Pinan, a 'hybrid' which is the seond form in SKK. Professor Cerio than adopted Oyama's versions of #3, #4 & #5 to complete the 5 pinan series. As Brother Peter stated, 3-5 were accurate names for these katas. #'s 3, 4 & 5 go back to the orignal 5 pinan series of Okinawan karate. In Shotokan they are called the Heian series. An interesting note I mentioned in a previous post is that Cerio at the time could not teach the exact pinan series anyway, even if he wanted to, as at the time he was teaching Karazenpo and it would conflict with Karazenpo's original kata series. The reason, Karazenpo's fourth form which is #4 Kata of SKK is actually a modified version of Okinawan Pinan #1. When Master Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan he called this series 'Heian' which I believe stood for 'peaceful shrine' and pinan meaning 'peaceful mind', a form of moving meditation. He then reversed the sequence of numbers one and two because he felt Okinawan Pinan #1 was too difficult to be given first in that series. Perhaps Brother Peter, who is also very knowledgable on this can add something here that I may have missed. I believe Peter and I are on the same page on this part of kempo history.
Respectfully submitted.
Wow, thanks for all the great info, this is great stuff about the history of NCK.. A couple of quick questions Prof. Joe..

From what I understand there is 5 Blocking Forms, 5 Pinans, 5 Cats Forms...

How many animal forms are included in NCK? I formally only know of Circle of the Tiger, Leopard, Panther, and Statue of the Crane. Is there a Form for the Snake and Dragon? If so, where did Professor Cerio learn these additional forms? Thanks for any and all of your help!!!

[Karazenpo]

Wow, thanks for all the great info, this is great stuff about the history of NCK.. A couple of quick questions Prof. Joe..

From what I understand there is 5 Blocking Forms, 5 Pinans, 5 Cats Forms...

How many animal forms are included in NCK? I formally only know of Circle of the Tiger, Leopard, Panther, and Statue of the Crane. Is there a Form for the Snake and Dragon? If so, where did Professor Cerio learn these additional forms? Thanks for any and all of your help!!!

Hello Fistlaw, Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard, Circle of the Panther, Statue of the Crane (Rohai), Pinans 1-3 and Cat forms 1-5. Pinans 1 and 3 correspond to Shaolin Kempo's 1 and 2. NCK Pinan 2 was inspired or suggested by Shotokan Heian 1 which is Okinawan's Pinan 2 but radically alterred. Cat's 1 & 2 are altered versions of Shaolin Kempo's Pinans 3 & 4. Cat 4 is his own creation. Cat 5 was inspired by Hansuki. Circle of the Panther was suggested by Shaolin Kempo's #6 kata and of course, Circles of the Tiger & Leopard by #1 & #2 kata. Blocking forms 1-5. Lin Wan Kune (Continuous returning fist) was from Sil Lum Kung Fu and was taught to the Professor by two Chinese masters, their names allude me for the moment but I have them recorded at my school, one put out a book on the form. He taught a short form called 'Waza' (technique) and he also taught Bassai that he originally learned from Gm. George Pesare. I'm sure I'm missing a couple but that's all I personally know of. He also taught many traditional weapons, bo, sai, kamas, sword, etc. He told me he had 20 empty hand forms in NCK. I don't recall him ever mentioning or practicing any animal forms other than those I listed but he may have. I never heard or saw any while I was with him. Hope this helps, Professor Joe

[Karazenpo]

Hello Fistlaw, Circle of the Tiger, Circle of the Leopard, Circle of the Panther, Statue of the Crane (Rohai), Pinans 1-3 and Cat forms 1-5. Pinans 1 and 3 correspond to Shaolin Kempo's 1 and 2. NCK Pinan 2 was inspired or suggested by Shotokan Heian 1 which is Okinawan's Pinan 2 but radically alterred. Cat's 1 & 2 are altered versions of Shaolin Kempo's Pinans 3 & 4. Cat 4 is his own creation. Cat 5 was inspired by Hansuki. Circle of the Panther was suggested by Shaolin Kempo's #6 kata and of course, Circles of the Tiger & Leopard by #1 & #2 kata. Blocking forms 1-5. Lin Wan Kune (Continuous returning fist) was from Sil Lum Kung Fu and was taught to the Professor by two Chinese masters, their names allude me for the moment but I have them recorded at my school, one put out a book on the form. He taught a short form called 'Waza' (technique) and he also taught Bassai that he originally learned from Gm. George Pesare. I'm sure I'm missing a couple but that's all I personally know of. He also taught many traditional weapons, bo, sai, kamas, sword, etc. He told me he had 20 empty hand forms in NCK. I don't recall him ever mentioning or practicing any animal forms other than those I listed but he may have. I never heard or saw any while I was with him. Hope this helps, Professor Joe

I almost forgot, he taught a two man fist set also, I believe he got that from Ed Parker.

[Gentle Fist]

Thanks a ton Prof. Joe!!!

[Karazenpo]

Thanks a ton Prof. Joe!!!

You're very welcome, Sir!

[Gentle Fist]

Prof Joe,

Just thought of a couple more questions, sorry for being so nosey but you are just so good at knocking these out of the air for me...

The two man set is the same set that is featured in the Master's Text correct?

A couple of years ago, my instructor at the time showed the class "Waza Shodan". He told us it was one of the many Waza forms Professor Cerio came up with. We only worked on it for 2 weeks, then he never went over it again, and he never expected us to really remember it. I do remember it being fairly easy to go through and it only seemed to be forward and backward with 180 degree turns at certain joints of the form.

And one question about Professor Chow....

I saw an article that listed him as a 15th Jugo Dan. Is that a 15th Dan?? How is that possible or is 15th something to do with his generation in the system?

Many thanks once again!!

[Matt]

Prof Joe,

Just thought of a couple more questions, sorry for being so nosey but you are just so good at knocking these out of the air for me...

The two man set is the same set that is featured in the Master's Text correct?

I'm not Prof. Shuras, but I'll confirm that one. The two man set you see Nick Cerio's "The Master's Text" is essentially the same as the Parker two man set. An early version of it appears in Ed Parker's "Secrets of Chinese Karate" as well, but a more similar version exists on video with Ed Parker performing it with Chuck Sullivan if I recall correctly (I saw it at Kenpojoe's place). Again, if memory serves, this set was created by Jimmy Woo.



A couple of years ago, my instructor at the time showed the class "Waza Shodan". He told us it was one of the many Waza forms Professor Cerio came up with. We only worked on it for 2 weeks, then he never went over it again, and he never expected us to really remember it. I do remember it being fairly easy to go through and it only seemed to be forward and backward with 180 degree turns at certain joints of the form.

And one question about Professor Chow....

I saw an article that listed him as a 15th Jugo Dan. Is that a 15th Dan?? How is that possible or is 15th something to do with his generation in the system?

Many thanks once again!!

The Jugo Dan / 15th degree came about as a reactionary measure. Essentially he saw several of his students claiming 10th dan, and said, well if he's a tenth than I'm a 15th...

Hope that helps.

Matt

[Karazenpo]

I'm not Prof. Shuras, but I'll confirm that one. The two man set you see Nick Cerio's "The Master's Text" is essentially the same as the Parker two man set. An early version of it appears in Ed Parker's "Secrets of Chinese Karate" as well, but a more similar version exists on video with Ed Parker performing it with Chuck Sullivan if I recall correctly (I saw it at Kenpojoe's place). Again, if memory serves, this set was created by Jimmy Woo.



The Jugo Dan / 15th degree came about as a reactionary measure. Essentially he saw several of his students claiming 10th dan, and said, well if he's a tenth than I'm a 15th...

Hope that helps.

Matt

Hello Matt, hope all is well. Yeah, I heard the same thing about Chow's 15th degree. He got sick and tired of all the self promotions of his kenpo/kempo juniors and called himself 15th degree Black Belt with the title "Master of the Universe", lol, and challenged anyone to call him on it. A while ago I received info. that SGM. Ralph Castro could confirm or debunk this so I contacted the webmaster of his Shaolin Kenpo site. He attempted to find an answer but to no avail. I have the early Parker book, "Secrets of Chinese Karate" and always thought the Cerio two-man set was an offshoot of that original, didn't know it came from Jimmy Woo though. I knew Jimmy Woo had created the first four forms of EPAK. Fistlaw, yeah, Cerio's Waza was an easy short form to learn but I am only familiar with the one, didn't see any others. Take care, Professor Joe

[Gentle Fist]

Prof Chow is the man!! I doubt anyone called him on it, since he was one of the best around. I have heard stories on how hard his trainings were and only the elite even got a shot to study with him.

Prof. Joe and Matt, thanks for all the answers and comments...

[gmkuoha]

Yes, hello everyone. My name is Sam Kuoha and I was asked by several friends to go unto this web as there are many of you seeking for questions about me and my training in the arts. After much deliberation I decided to respond personally rather then having my aide do it. Be mindful that I am extremely busy and may not always respond to your questions. I travel quite frequently and often so my time on the computer is usually kept just for my instructors in 30 different countries but I will make every effort to answer your questions about me, my training in the arts, my professor, William KS Chow et all? Just be patient with me.

Thanks,
Sam A. Kuoha
head of the Professor Chow's Chinese Kara-Ho Kempo Karate System

[tshadowchaser]

Welcome to the forum, We hope your stay here will be enjoyable.
As you can see there is a small but interesting group of people in the Kara-ho Kenpo section.
There have been many good disscussions here and I hope you will contibute by asking and answereing qustions.
We all enjoy learning an exchanging information.
Sheldon

[The Kai]

GrandMaster
I have one of your tapes from Budo International, as well I've had the oppurtunity to work with you at the gathering a few times (I have you on tape breaking down a jointlock on me!) . I am always interested i9n anytime you choose to share
Todd

[gmkuoha]

Welcome to the forum, We hope your stay here will be enjoyable.
As you can see there is a small but interesting group of people in the Kara-ho Kenpo section.
There have been many good disscussions here and I hope you will contibute by asking and answereing qustions.
We all enjoy learning an exchanging information.
Sheldon
Thanks, I will do my best with the amount of time that I have. I will be here for a week then off to Hawaii for a couple of weeks where I will be tribute to my teacher, who have passed on in 1987 and his wife, Patsy Chow. I will be visiting with Dr. Perry (Professor Chow's advisor and personal friend and also Master Kuihana and train with my longest instructor, Shihan Kahananui). This will also be my 40th high school reunion. Graduated from Farrington High School in Kalihi where Professor Chow lived for many years. Also Professor Wally Jay and Ed Parker came from the rough area of Kalihi. Upon coming home, I will be very busy in pre-production with a motion picture that will be shot here in San Diego and Los Angeles but will try to get on my laptop inbetween times.
Thanks,
GM Kuoha

[gmkuoha]

GrandMaster
I have one of your tapes from Budo International, as well I've had the oppurtunity to work with you at the gathering a few times (I have you on tape breaking down a jointlock on me!) . I am always interested i9n anytime you choose to share
Todd
Thanks, and I hope that I will be a tribute to the knowledge thast I have obtained over these past 54 years. Seems like a long time, but when I think of what I have to learn, it seems so little of the time I have been training. A wise man (Professor Chow) told me once that to say that you have been taking arts for 20 years from someone that knows nothing still equals nothing. But to train for a year with someone that has allot of Akami (brains) equals a lot of knowledge. I have taken that all my life as my father (a Hawaiian lua champion) has also taught me these principles, so this is why I have searched out training with only the best all my life, no matter what the costs might be, (I was not a conveniant learner) and I only hope that I can pass some of these things to my students and others along the way. I especially am trying to keep the legacy with my daughter, Sensei Ka'imi Kwai Sun (named after Professor Chow as he was the 1st one notified when she was born and he asked me to name her after him and since William was not a good choice we gave her his middle name who he referred to Kwai all her life). Ka'imi remembers Professor Chow picking her up when she was only 3-4 years old and watching her perform and he told her on tape that she would be the next leader to "his" system. This has motivated her all her life to keep training. Now a 4th dan she has been training for all her life and trains 5 days a week even if her schedule is worse then mine. Was she there at the Gathering with me and if so did you have the opportuinity to work out with her?
Mahalo,
Grandmaster Kuoha

[The Kai]

I do'nt know if she was there klast year, but I do remember her teachinbg one year. Very cool stuff

[TIGER DRAGON FIGHT]

my understanding of kara-ho kenpo is it has influenced other branches of kenpo. the forms and open hand techniques as well as the black belt forms resemble.

[gmkuoha]

I do'nt know if she was there klast year, but I do remember her teachinbg one year. Very cool stuff
Thanks, I will tell her that you enjoyed training with her. She tries to amke it there every year but her scheduling is so crazy that at times if she is there, it is a miracle and by what has been coming in, she will be almost impossible to attend anything.

By the way she was inducted into the Master's Martial Arts Hall of Fame to be held in August of this year in LA. You can go to their website: www. martialartshalloffame.com
Grandmaster Kuoha

[gmkuoha]

my understanding of kara-ho kenpo is it has influenced other branches of kenpo. the forms and open hand techniques as well as the black belt forms resemble.
That is correct! Though many believe that I have changed the system, that is an incorrect statement. Professor Chow saw me doing some high kicks in the early 70's so he asked me where I had learned them so I told him then he told me to do them again several times, and then he said that would be a good idea to teach high kicks so if you know how to do them, you will also know how to defend against that also. He however revised the kicks so they were not a whipping type kick as I was doing them, but a chambering of the knees until the last second. Then he had me do them with an extension of chi to create a force much greater then a normal person could exert and making it much more powerful. If you watched one of our students (perferably an instructor) you will see the big difference between these kicks and those of what I originally learned which was Tae Kwon Do. Many things were innovated between the years 72-87 and many people were not around to see these things change and still kept the original art. If you get to find one of our black belts that is 2nd degree black belt or higher, ask him/her to do any technique from #6-10's or even higher #11-15's and you will see the new Professor Chow.
And to rest everyone's mind, our two small schools here in San Diego were the only ones that supported him and his wife throughout their life. Our small organization then even set up an account at the bank in Hawaii and every month all his bills were paid from money that we put into and he was given money that month to live off of. When he passed away there was over $4,000 in coins in shoe boxes hidden under his bed and when Patsy Chow was asked where all that money came from, her response was Samuel. After Professor's death we took care of Patsy Chow also and put her in a real good home where we paid about 25% of her expenses, then twice a month we paid my sister (who lives there) to go and pick her up and get her things that she might need and to take her to the gravesit to visit Professor. There was no one else that did that and that was confirmed by his advisor, Dr. Perry. He stated that everyone took from Professor but people forgot to give back. Let's put it this way when Professor passed away he had about 2-3 students and I went back home to visit Patsy Chow about twice a year and she said that none came to visit her except for my sister every month and me. Kinda tells you what we as human's are made off, huh? We get caught up in our own world and we tend to forget what's really important to us all.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[Big Pat]

Grandmaster Kuoha,

It is an honor and pleasure to have you post here. It is always valuable to hear {read} another prespective on the evolution of Kenpo.

EKP RIP

Big Pat
:asian:

[gmkuoha]

Grandmaster Kuoha,

It is an honor and pleasure to have you post here. It is always valuable to hear {read} another prespective on the evolution of Kenpo.

EKP RIP

Big Pat
:asian:
You're welcome and I hope that I can add something to all your questions and enfluence all martial artists in a positive way. This is what Professor Chow would have wanted me to do.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[John Bishop]

Good to see you here, old friend. It's always great to have our seniors availiable to share their knowledge and experiences with us.

[DavidCC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TIGER DRAGON FIGHT
my understanding of kara-ho kenpo is it has influenced other branches of kenpo. the forms and open hand techniques as well as the black belt forms resemble.

That is correct!

Hello GM Kuoha,
As I analyze the style of Kempo I am trainnig, how can I recognize the influences of Prof. Chow? What are the tell-tale signs that might have survived through all the generations to make it to my school?

Thanks!
David

[TIGER DRAGON FIGHT]

sir, it is an honor to have you note somthing so profound. always give thanks to those who have touched your life in some way or form and to continue to grow as a martial artist yet perfect it, much like your life.

[gmkuoha]

Good to see you here, old friend. It's always great to have our seniors availiable to share their knowledge and experiences with us.
Thanks and hope that I can help others who are searching for a little light on the things that I know of such as Professor Chow in the latter years and the Chinese Kara-Ho Kempo Karate System. You encouraged me to get on line several months ago but it so hard with my schedule as it is always hit and miss for me, but I'm sure you understand. I am 10X more busy then when I was in law enforcement. You take care,
Grandmaster Kuoha

[gmkuoha]

As I analyze the style of Kempo I am trainnig, how can I recognize the influences of Prof. Chow? What are the tell-tale signs that might have survived through all the generations to make it to my school?

Thanks!
David[/QUOTE]
First of all I don't know what style of Kenpo/Kempo you are learning but I think if anyone told me that they followed the roots and branch of the famed Professor William KS Chow I would look for some low line fighting techniques, vital strikes to points that would cripple or destroy an opponent and the coverage of defeating several opponents at once with rapid strikes. I don't mean striking an opponent with a series of slaps and blows that would antagonize him but put that person out of commission. Professor Chow's system is a no nonense system that is highly dangerous and can be extremely lethal and that is why Ki is the most important ingredient in the basis of training. This is to encourage a student to be more humble, respectful and having great control. A Kara-Ho student at an advance stage can be very deadly though they are trained to be humble. Take for instance, my head of the security program and a student/instructor in the Kara-Ho System is a former Sgt/Maj in the USMC staged to teach all the recons. He was deployed in the 1st Gulf War and was a short distance away from Saddam Hussein but was ordered not to take him out at that time. He was there with a small amount of elete group before our government knew they were there in the Imperial Palace. He has two sides to his personality yet if it wasn't for the teachings of Kara-Ho he might have gone off the edge. Then another one of our instructors is a Lt. Col. in the Marine Corps assigned as the assistant to the Joint Chief of Staff. Both men will be awarded into the Master's Martial Arts Hall of fame this coming August at a black Tie affair in LA. Many of our instructors are law enforcement officers in several different departments, including my own brother and many of them are teaching self defense to their prespective departments. My instructor also taught the Navy SEALS underwater combat here in San Diego. So they will only use what they are taught if the need arises and only then.
Hope this helps,
Grandmaster Kuoha

[gmkuoha]

sir, it is an honor to have you note somthing so profound. always give thanks to those who have touched your life in some way or form and to continue to grow as a martial artist yet perfect it, much like your life.
Thank you and I believe that the more we emphasize these principles to those around us, the more we will leave some good in this world for others to follow. My dream is to continue leaving good positive Ki to those I come in contact with till the Good Lord decides to take me home.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[The Kai]

Gm Kuona

If you have the time and want to take a trip down memory lane, could you remember what a class was with GM Chow? I am curious, and would apprieciate your time
Todd

[Mark L]

GM Kuoha,

What forms are the basis of Kara-Ho, and what is there origin?

[DavidCC]

"I would look for some low line fighting techniques, vital strikes to points that would cripple or destroy an opponent and the coverage of defeating several opponents at once with rapid strikes"


Thanks!, that was the kind of information I was looking for.

David C.

[gmkuoha]

GM Kuoha,

What forms are the basis of Kara-Ho, and what is there origin?
The only things that could be considered as forms that the Kara-Ho Kempo System had in the 50-70's was Professor Chow's linear techniques. In the 50's to the mid 70's, Professor said that he did use the Hansuki Form and the Nanhuchi Form but these were all derivitive of the Mitosi System. Kwai Sun Kata was developed in the late 70's using techniques from his linear techniques to make uo the kata. Kata Set II was developed sortle thereafter and then followed Hoshi and Combination Form. The original Combo Form was actually developed with my oldest daughter (who was promoted to her black belt by Professor Chow) and Professor and he said that form was for her. It was later used in the system for 1st degree black and changed a little to magnify and show the talents of what a black belt should be like. My oldest daughter now nearly 37 years old was only a yellow belt when Professor, her and I developed said kata. There are more but they are taught in the higher advanced stages.
There are 16 different weapons, both with the Japanese and Chinese enfluence that are taught with 3 katas for each weapon, so it's a never ending progress to learn. About one tird was done with Professor Chow and the other two-thirds I designed from what he and others have taught me still keeping in line the phylosophies of the Kara-Ho System. Hope this helps.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[gmkuoha]

Gm Kuona

If you have the time and want to take a trip down memory lane, could you remember what a class was with GM Chow? I am curious, and would apprieciate your time
Todd
Todd:
My training in the Kara-Ho Kempo Karate system, called Chinese Kenpo of Kara-Ho Karate when I was training was not like it is today. First of all my earlier training was done with one of Professor Chow's students (Charles Kuihana) in the mid 50's till I left Hawaii in '69. I trained for 8-10 hours a day even while attending school. Our value of the sleep was prized and very valuable to us even as a young person as we got very little of it. I met Professor Chow while I resided with Master Kuihana along with 5 others who were training, at various times and at first really did not like him. We trained at the home built like a shrine and also taught at the Salvation Army Gym and that is where Professor would come down once in a great while. To me at that time I felt he was too mean and abusive and I tried to stay clear of him but he would use me as uki quite often. The bruises and cracked bones in my body healed quickly then. I learned how to be tough real fast. In our training there was quite a bit of exercises and stretching. We did have a bit of fun as we played volleyball while wearing weighted gettas (Japanese Slippers) and we had to keep doing that everyday for an hour until ecah one of us could jump so our head could overlook the top of the net. It took me about 3 years to do that but the training that I went to, made a sure big difference on the strength of my legs. This was to build it so strong that our low line techniques were easier to make work.

Times have changed and we do not train our students the same way as we did then as we were made tough with all the contact. However many of the trainings that modern day students receive have made them the same way as it was then. Our classes are a minimum of 2 hours each night and usually go till 2.5 hours. The first hour are a strict excercises with lots of cardio and stretching. Some of those are such as doing two knuckle push-ups on cement blocks, center knuckles and tips of fingers. Allot of ab work is done and also some good ole yoga stretching. Then the training begins. The students train a minimum of 4 X a week and some go 6 days a week for the same length of time. It takes 6-8 years of this type of training to acheive their black belt. We do not nor will we ever promote anyone to a junior black belt. There is a probation of one year for each "dan" rank before that instructor receives his all important large notarized certificate from me personally like I recieved mine from Professor Chow. If they do not have it, then it only means that they did not make their probation and therfore did not acheive that rank from us. Probation period can be extended if the board feels necessary. All brown/black and black belts are tested and promoted through our board of directors and generally I must be present for all black belt promotions. This is the only way to keep control over the quality of the ranking instructors. We have tried and counseled with others for a better way, but there is none. This way we know for a fact that our instructors are teaching things as close as they can to what we are teaching at our school. We also have training sessions quite often for instructors and they are constantly travelling to San Diego to take private training with myself or some of the board members. The moral standards in this system is very strict and many instructors and students alike are terminated because of some things that they are doing that are not in accordance with the way this system is set up, so if you hear anyone say they used to be a student but quit because they didn't like something, it's more likely 'cause they screwed up and was kicked out. Most Kara-Ho Students that join in and stay for about 3-4 years usually stay a long while after that or their life focus changes in a differnt direction.
Best,
Grandmaster

[gmkuoha]

I'm not Prof. Shuras, but I'll confirm that one. The two man set you see Nick Cerio's "The Master's Text" is essentially the same as the Parker two man set. An early version of it appears in Ed Parker's "Secrets of Chinese Karate" as well, but a more similar version exists on video with Ed Parker performing it with Chuck Sullivan if I recall correctly (I saw it at Kenpojoe's place). Again, if memory serves, this set was created by Jimmy Woo.



The Jugo Dan / 15th degree came about as a reactionary measure. Essentially he saw several of his students claiming 10th dan, and said, well if he's a tenth than I'm a 15th...

Hope that helps.

Matt
I have a little insight to this question and I hope this helps. That is true that many of his old students were all claiming 10th dans (mine was given to me by his advisor, Dr. Perry and witnessed by his widow, Patsy Chow after his death in 1987). At that time I still refused to accept that so I made a deal with Patsy Chow and Dr. Perry, and that if I ran his system for a year, and they both felt I was heading in the correct direction, then I would accept the 10th as Professor wanted it in his will. However several ranking and well known master's in Hawaii told Professor that if his past students were all claiming 10th's then he should most certainly be at least a jugo-dan (15th) and that is how that came all about.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[tshadowchaser]

gmkuoha,

Sir I am enjoying reading your posts. Most of us have heard how hard Proffeser Chow trained his people, but few of us ever got to see or hear the other side of him. Would you perhaps honor us with a funny story or a bit of his humor. This I think would give us a little insite into the man as a man, not just the strict instructor.

[gmkuoha]

gmkuoha,

Sir I am enjoying reading your posts. Most of us have heard how hard Proffeser Chow trained his people, but few of us ever got to see or hear the other side of him. Would you perhaps honor us with a funny story or a bit of his humor. This I think would give us a little insite into the man as a man, not just the strict instructor.I don't know if I know too many funny stories about Professor Chow as he was a very serious person. The only time I really saw him smile was when we took our daughter, Ka'imi Kwai Sun over to see him at about 3 years old and when he saw her perform he just beemed and then whenever she was near, he would give her hugs and give smiles. There was one time though that was a great shocker to me. We were in the park next to his home training and after a grueling 5 hours in the hot, humid Hawaiian weather we went back to his home. Patsy offered me up some water and after a breif break we went outside as I was to take them to have a Chinese Dinner. As we approached his driveway, I walked and crawled under a thick chain that went accross his driveway, about 3' above the ground secured on both sides into a huge steel pole to separate the driveway from the road. I turned around to hold up the chain so he could crawl underneath but before I could even do that he calmly walked up to the chain and with smoothness and gazelle like movement, he had jumped the chain. It shocked me because he was in his late 60's at the time and he did so very effortlessly. I sure would have liked to have that on video, but things like that happen in spurts.
I have in our companies possesion several mini cassettes with him speaking on it during a time in the 70's when he just wanted to let it all air out. I was offered $100 g's by a big time publisher to obtain those tapes so they could print it and I refused. Professor had named quite a few people that had taken advantage of him during his life who came and trained for very short periods of time and then left and used hi name to make themselves look bigger. Some of these people are very big name today, so to allow these tapes to get out and hurt some of these people, I could not do that. To me it's all about trying to move forward and teach positive and this could be very negative to some of the biggest names in the Kenpo System today.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[Thunderbolt]

Regarding forms taught by Prof. Chow, I was told there were a total of four forms he taught at the time of his death.

The last form he "created" seems to be "Kwai Sun"

I do know that in addition to Hansuki and Kwai Sun, Prof. Chow taught two other "forms" called the free motion 25 and 45 man attack.

KG
Grandmaster Kuoha,

I read the above post in "karaho" thread and I wonder if you recognize any of these above forms when you studied with Prof Chow.?

Perhaps, you can share with us about these forms if you do.

thank you for answering my question.

[Karazenpo]

The only things that could be considered as forms that the Kara-Ho Kempo System had in the 50-70's was Professor Chow's linear techniques. In the 50's to the mid 70's, Professor said that he did use the Hansuki Form and the Nanhuchi Form but these were all derivitive of the Mitosi System. Kwai Sun Kata was developed in the late 70's using techniques from his linear techniques to make uo the kata. Kata Set II was developed sortle thereafter and then followed Hoshi and Combination Form. The original Combo Form was actually developed with my oldest daughter (who was promoted to her black belt by Professor Chow) and Professor and he said that form was for her. It was later used in the system for 1st degree black and changed a little to magnify and show the talents of what a black belt should be like. My oldest daughter now nearly 37 years old was only a yellow belt when Professor, her and I developed said kata. There are more but they are taught in the higher advanced stages.
There are 16 different weapons, both with the Japanese and Chinese enfluence that are taught with 3 katas for each weapon, so it's a never ending progress to learn. About one tird was done with Professor Chow and the other two-thirds I designed from what he and others have taught me still keeping in line the phylosophies of the Kara-Ho System. Hope this helps.
Grandmaster Kuoha

Welcome Grandmaster Kuoha, first let me state it's an honor to have you here participating in our discussions as that says something of your character. Another that we have asked to come aboard and clear up some questions on our kenpo/kempo history does not seem to have time for us but you have made the time. We appreciate that. Being a police officer myself I have the utmost respect for those martial artists who are forced to use their skills on the street to protect life and property. My question is on 'Hansuki'. This form, as I'm sure you know, features rapid fire hand striking, both open and closed hands up and down the centerline of the body. Mitose's original Kenpo from what I have been exposed to in his book (1947): What is Self Defense? Kenpo Jiu Jitsu and Mr. Parker's publication of 1961: Kenpo Karate-Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand of which I've been told was made up of essentially what Mitose taught Chow at that time, is nothing like the rapid fire hand striking found in Hansuki. I also recall Sijo Adriano Emperado state: "Chow made the old kenpo faster". Having said that, imho and I may be wrong but Hansuki does not seem to be a Mitose 'inspired' form. I have understood it was created through the Chow/Chun connection in the 60's and was the beginings of Chow's perspective of his Kara-Ho system. Your insight into this is deeply appreciated. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

[gmkuoha]

Grandmaster Kuoha,

I read the above post in "karaho" thread and I wonder if you recognize any of these above forms when you studied with Prof Chow.?

Perhaps, you can share with us about these forms if you do.

thank you for answering my question.
Actually the very 1st form that was created in the mid-late 70's was "Kwai Sun Kata", then came Kata Set II and then Hoshi and Combination form. Each form has taken it's own appeareance and personality, displaying what the art of Kara-Ho is all about. Some are leaning towards the harder part of the system while others stem towards the softer part of the Kung Fu, while others are showing both hard and soft. Each, though with their own characteristics and technique have the rapid hand and leg techniques as showing with Professor Chow's ability. The other forms of Hansuki, etc. was faded out in the late 60-early 70's. We do have multiple opponents techniques but they are not considered katas or forms. These would be in the techniques referred to as, techniques #6-10 and 11-15's referring to fighting with 6-10 people at once or 11-15 opponents at the same time. These techniques are only taught to black belts after they receive their 2nd degree black belts, going for their 3rd. The 11-15 has only been taught to one person thus far in this system and that is Shihan (Dr.) Chris Mendoza of Salt Lake City, UT. He has been with me since he was a child and is the highest ranking student in this system at 6th dan. Hope this helps.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[gmkuoha]

Welcome Grandmaster Kuoha, first let me state it's an honor to have you here participating in our discussions as that says something of your character. Another that we have asked to come aboard and clear up some questions on our kenpo/kempo history does not seem to have time for us but you have made the time. We appreciate that. Being a police officer myself I have the utmost respect for those martial artists who are forced to use their skills on the street to protect life and property. My question is on 'Hansuki'. This form, as I'm sure you know, features rapid fire hand striking, both open and closed hands up and down the centerline of the body. Mitose's original Kenpo from what I have been exposed to in his book (1947): What is Self Defense? Kenpo Jiu Jitsu and Mr. Parker's publication of 1961: Kenpo Karate-Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand of which I've been told was made up of essentially what Mitose taught Chow at that time, is nothing like the rapid fire hand striking found in Hansuki. I also recall Sijo Adriano Emperado state: "Chow made the old kenpo faster". Having said that, imho and I may be wrong but Hansuki does not seem to be a Mitose 'inspired' form. I have understood it was created through the Chow/Chun connection in the 60's and was the beginings of Chow's perspective of his Kara-Ho system. Your insight into this is deeply appreciated. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras
I started in the Chinese Kara-Ho Kempo Karate system in 1956 under Sensei Charles Kuuheana who had been training with Professor Chow and was a black belt under him. Sensei Kuuheana was a very humble man and in fact would never say anything to anyone about him being in martial arts. In fact he would deny ever training yet we lived with him and trained on an average of 8-10 hours each day and half a day on Saturdays. Then we were allowed to return home and be back on Sunday. There were only 7 of us that trained in those days. Since I was pretty young, I was taught differently then when Professor Chow came around and taught us. I was taught with allot of encouragment and praises, where Professor would teach with discipline and correction. He only came around maybe once a year or twice a year and to be honest I did not like it when he came by. I tried to search for history and any info about Sensei Kuuheana or photos but I could not find any so in the 70's when I returned home to train directly with Professor Chow, I asked him about Sensei Kuuheana and he considered him a different person and said that he was too humble, would not take photos with him, nor would try to teach to the public, but he did acknowledge him as one of his black belts and he said most of his training was done at his house because they were neighbors. Professor remembered teaching him, his brother and another friend at his home in the yard, and said that Kuuheana was a good breaker with big knuckles (of course none could compare with his own). Professor did tell me that these 2 katas were while he was with Mitosi and when I trained with him in the 70's he has not heard from Bill Chun Sr. for 8-10 years. I don't know exactly how long he had not heard from Chun Sr., but what he told me it was indeed some time, so if they did those katas in the 60's, then they weren't around for very long and I believe that they were around for a long time. I taped recordered Professor in the 70's about many things including some of his old students and what he taught, etc. My thought was to someday have all that put on paper so others could see what kind of a man he was, but after listening to the recorder after several times, I decided not to allow it out as he was very bitter about several men that he had taught and it would truly destroy allot of these people so because I believe that Kara-Ho Kempo system teaches the harmony of Mind, body and sopul, I decided that it would not be in the same facet of what we are teaching. I have allowed some of our more higher ranking instructors to listen to these tapes so that might know what he sounded like and what he carried around for all his life.
I have seen these other katas performed but the ones that we have now are very different from those. The nanhashi or Hansuki forms are very hard and displayed as a disciplined Japanese Kata while the ones that we have now are displayed as a combination of the hard and soft also relating to some being hard (but not quite as hard as the old ones) and the soft (not like a true Kung Fu form). They all have a true showing of how Professor Chow moved and striked, with rapid fire to vital areas. All our techniques are done the same way and most of the advanced stages have 7-10 ares of attacks and the entire technique must be done in 1.5 secs. with effectiveness. When the higher ranking are doing their 6-10's or 11-15's it is a blur of strikes and attacks and is done in seconds with extreme devastation. This is the way Professor wanted it to be and designed it to be that way. I don't know how truie it is but he said that I was the only person that he has ever taken that far, but realizing that I was pretty close to him and his wife, it made me beam all the time he taught me. He also told me that he always thought that Bill Chunm Sr. was the most dedicated student until he trained me. To me that was an honor for all the times I heard him talk about Sr., he admired him and loved him allot too, but was discouraged when he fell ill and then just broke off their relationship. I believe when I came back home to train with the person I could disliked when I was younger, I filled the gap in his heart of his loss for Bill Sr. He told me that he had promoted Sr. to 5th dan and so he said that he had to promote me to 5th also, and then 9th several years later. He said that Sr. was the only one besides me that he had ever promoted to 5th dan in his system. I loved that man so much and our love grew as the years went by. There was never a time that if he needed something, I was not there for him or Patsy. Even after his death I ( students and I) took care of her and no-one else ever did that. We paid for a part of her housing and every other week I paid my sister to go and pick her up and take her to gravesite of Professor Chow and then take her shopping and buy her all the things she wanted and needed. Patsy told me on one of my visits that I was the only one that went there to see her and take care of her. Even the caretaker said that, only other person was her son, Steven but that was a rarity. And till today I can still feel his presence around me. An old Kahuna in the Big Island of Hawaii saw us when our daughter was very young and Professor Chow had already passed on, he told her that she was protected by two men in her life. He described my dad for one and the other was Professor Chow. His description was exact so we felt pretty good about this. The Kahuna was very avid about these things. I hope this helps you in your search for knowledge. Please let me know if I can be of any other help for you.
Aloha,
Grandmaster Kuoha

[Karazenpo]

Grandmaster Kuoha, thank you very much for your prompt, indepth and sincere response! Yes, it has helped me immensely in my search for the true history of our hawaiian derived Kenpo roots. As I stated before, your response alone shows a man of great character, sensitivity and conviction, a credit to the arts and you have a 'good friend' in Sigung John Bishop. Thanks again for taking the time to reply. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

[Jagdish]

Dear GM Kouha:

I would like to know if Prof. Chow did have any training in Ki or internal energy training and if he did advance in it (means could he project ki in his hits?) ?

Also where did he learn it?

Thanks in advance.

Yours sincerely,

Jagdish :asian:

[gmkuoha]

Dear GM Kouha:

I would like to know if Prof. Chow did have any training in Ki or internal energy training and if he did advance in it (means could he project ki in his hits?) ?

Also where did he learn it?

Thanks in advance.

Yours sincerely,

Jagdish :asian:
Professor Chow's internal energy was truly amazing and yes, he could and did portray his Chi during his strikes. Many people believe he was just a physical strong individual and that he was also, but he also had an astonding strength of Chi. I used to watch him pick up a good size piece of lava rock that was so corse that just tossing it in the air and catching it could cause you to tear up your own hands, and he would hold it in one hand and either punch or chop it with the other with little effort and just shatter the rock. Many things he used to do was truly amazing and only if you were there to see all this would one really catch the true value of the internal power that he possesed. many of these things he taught me but it was very hard to understand and relate too, because it was something out of the ordinary. It took many years to have a fair relationship of understanding and even after over 20 years in Kara-Ho Kempo, I still had much to learn. It was only till Shihan John Damian, a noted Aikidoists came into my life that I started to really understand what I have been taight all these years. I was indeed practicing with Chi, but had a hard time explaining it to my students on how to make it work for them.
As Shihan Damian would say that I had been utilizing the principles all my training life but now I have the realism of the understanding of it and now am able to teach it proficiently to all my students all over the world.
Professor Chow's training of Chi came from his father who was once a Buddhist Priest from Shanghai, China and taught his son the gung fu training which first started with Chi training.
All my life I have watched many people in the arts that have been able to portray strong and good Ki (chi), and one of the most sincere and humble men of this energy is a Kung Fu Stylists by the name of Sifu Dwight Love in San Diego. The power he posses is truly outstanding and my daughter, Sensei Ka'imi Kuoha has been training also with him for the last 5 years, privately and her training of gigong is helping her acheive things that she has never been able to do before.
Hope this helps,
Grandmaster Kuoha

[gmkuoha]

Grandmaster Kuoha, thank you very much for your prompt, indepth and sincere response! Yes, it has helped me immensely in my search for the true history of our hawaiian derived Kenpo roots. As I stated before, your response alone shows a man of great character, sensitivity and conviction, a credit to the arts and you have a 'good friend' in Sigung John Bishop. Thanks again for taking the time to reply. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras
You are more then welcome and any time I can be of any assistance, just ask.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[Jagdish]

Professor Chow's internal energy was truly amazing and yes, he could and did portray his Chi during his strikes. Many people believe he was just a physical strong individual and that he was also, but he also had an astonding strength of Chi. I used to watch him pick up a good size piece of lava rock that was so corse that just tossing it in the air and catching it could cause you to tear up your own hands, and he would hold it in one hand and either punch or chop it with the other with little effort and just shatter the rock. Many things he used to do was truly amazing and only if you were there to see all this would one really catch the true value of the internal power that he possesed. many of these things he taught me but it was very hard to understand and relate too, because it was something out of the ordinary. It took many years to have a fair relationship of understanding and even after over 20 years in Kara-Ho Kempo, I still had much to learn. It was only till Shihan John Damian, a noted Aikidoists came into my life that I started to really understand what I have been taight all these years. I was indeed practicing with Chi, but had a hard time explaining it to my students on how to make it work for them.
As Shihan Damian would say that I had been utilizing the principles all my training life but now I have the realism of the understanding of it and now am able to teach it proficiently to all my students all over the world.
Professor Chow's training of Chi came from his father who was once a Buddhist Priest from Shanghai, China and taught his son the gung fu training which first started with Chi training.
All my life I have watched many people in the arts that have been able to portray strong and good Ki (chi), and one of the most sincere and humble men of this energy is a Kung Fu Stylists by the name of Sifu Dwight Love in San Diego. The power he posses is truly outstanding and my daughter, Sensei Ka'imi Kuoha has been training also with him for the last 5 years, privately and her training of gigong is helping her acheive things that she has never been able to do before.
Hope this helps,
Grandmaster Kuoha

Dear GM Kuoha:

Thanks for taking your time to answer my question. It's very much appreciated.

1.-I would also like to ask you if Professor Chow did some external traning regarding calisthenics, weight lifting or power lifting. And what did he think about these types of training.

One thing is to be in shape "martially" where one can punch, kick thousands of times and another being able to lift weights of any kind.

For power what do you prefer most?

Thanks in advance.

Yours sincerely,

Jagdish

[gmkuoha]

[QUOTE=Jagdish]Dear GM Kuoha:

Thanks for taking your time to answer my question. It's very much appreciated.

1.-I would also like to ask you if Professor Chow did some external traning regarding calisthenics, weight lifting or power lifting. And what did he think about these types of training.

One thing is to be in shape "martially" where one can punch, kick thousands of times and another being able to lift weights of any kind.

For power what do you prefer most?

Thanks in advance.

Yes, Professor Chow was an avid weight lifter. When he sat next to his chair in the living room, there was a dumbell next to the chair on one side, weighing about 40-50# and on the other side was a good size sand bag that he used to strike with his fingertips. He always taught us that weight training or even isometrics were some of the good things that all martial artists should do. We lifted lighter weights, with more reps to improve the strength but not the bulkiness. Power lifting were done by some of the students, but strict advise to them was that after they finsihed their workouts, they should spend twice as long doing stretching exercises so that the body did not remain tense. We also did a ton of calistatics and exercises that used the body weight. In weight training or Ki Principles, I think both are important to a complete martial arts training. Like anything else, the physical and mental must be in harmony so I cannot say that I would prefer one over the other. The dynamics of striking someone has to be in perfect order to magnify the technique, while the Ki will help the penetration of the internal power. Does that make sense? One separated from the other becomes weak.

Hope this help some,
Grandmaster Kuoha

[Hand Sword]

Greetings and much respect to you GM Kuoha! It's truly an honor to be able to communicate with you. Lately I've been focussing on the evolution aspect of kenpo/kempo, where I was asking the other kenpo stylists what their systems changed or added to the kenpo originally taught to them or instructors and why it was changed. None could really answer the question due to no one being familiar with the system that Professor Chow taught and practiced. I was curios as to what the professor stressed as the focal points regarding his self defense combos, or what he felt was needed to add from what he learned. Thank you for your time, and again respect to you and yours.

[gmkuoha]

Greetings and much respect to you GM Kuoha! It's truly an honor to be able to communicate with you. Lately I've been focussing on the evolution aspect of kenpo/kempo, where I was asking the other kenpo stylists what their systems changed or added to the kenpo originally taught to them or instructors and why it was changed. None could really answer the question due to no one being familiar with the system that Professor Chow taught and practiced. I was curios as to what the professor stressed as the focal points regarding his self defense combos, or what he felt was needed to add from what he learned. Thank you for your time, and again respect to you and yours.**What was told to me by Professor Chow, was that from the beginning when he used to teach, he first taught a couple students in his back yard teaching them teachniques that his father taught him. After a while he joined up with Mitosi and started to teach more of his (Mitosi) style then that of which he learned from his father. At that time he was teaching techniques and kata but all of the Japanese enfluence and not the Chinese that he originally was taught. After his breaking away from Mitosi he began teaching a small band of students, which were of the linear techniques (12) which then derived into hundreds of techniques derived into reaction techniques. He was an avid physical trainer so much of the training was done to build the strength of the body and then you would go through these linear techniques for hours and hours. He said there was allot that he wanted to teach but held off teaching them for several reasons, one of which he could not trust anyone. He had depended on several men that became his top students, but they all left or loss contact after a while. This hurt him dearly and this 'caused his mind to become calous towards anyone, because so many had taken advantage of him. Be it the same with me when I first tried to train with him again, he was extremly cautious and did not want to teach me anything, because he was hurt so much before by many who came for a short couple of weeks, gave him some money, had him sign their certificates and then used his name for their own gains. Tho' I had been training in his system for many years prior with his student Charles Kuuheana and met him in person, he still did not trust me. It was only because my mother was a friend of his wife's, Patsy that I was able to get into his good graces acknowledged by my mother that I was not the same as these others.
I would spend many hours training in the basics, and even tho' I thought I was doing them perfectly, he felt that I wasn't. After many visits and hours, he started finally opening up to me and even had me bring a tape recorder so he could tell me everything about his life and his training, pass students, et all, which I did. *These are held in the Kara-Ho Kempo's archives and are not used for the public.
As I said in the beginning he only taught the 12 Professor Chow's linear techniques and only after many years, he started to teach me the advanced stages of the Kara-Ho Kempo Karate System, having to ward and defend against up to 15 opponents at a time and to defeat them all in a matter of seconds. These were the one blow/strike technique that would immobilize, paralize or kill your opponents. These were a work of art on it's own and if you ever have a chance to visit one of our schools where the instructor is at least a 2nd degree black belt going for his 3rd, ask him to demonstrate the advanced techniques of defending against 6-10 people. During this time he observed me practicing on my own doing my high flying kicks from my training in Tae Kwon Do and came up to me and asked how did I learn them and I told him that I did that for some 6.5 years and it was because during a tournament I was caught with one of these kicks and wanted to learn how to do them so I knew the mechanics of them and would never get in that predictament again. He started to work with me on the jumping kicks and helped me revise them as he said that there was openings when I left the ground and helped make them so there was less periods of time that I was left opened. He asked me if I ever did kata and I said yes, from the past systems I had taken. I performed some of them and he asked me if we should include them into our system and I said no, that I believe it would not be Kara-Ho Kempo if we used someone else's katas, so we started to design katas designed from our system's movements. These took years as when we did, he would go over them many times, and would look at what was good and what was useless, remove the useless and improve on the effective things. In the end we came up with "Kwai Sun Kata", "Kata Set II", "Hoshi" and "Combination Kata." Should be mentioned that these are not the same as any other Kenpo system's katas that named them the same as ours'. In fact ours were around in the beginning of time and they made up theirs' after to try to show some relative similar things towards Professor Chow's system. Weapons training and forms were added also in the 70's. I trained in both Japanese and Chinese weapons for many years from top people in their art form. Everything that we have now did already go through Professor Chow's guidance and he did make changes in all of them, to make them better. They were all done with his blessings except for 2 beginner's weapon's (purple and above) katas that I designed after 1987 for those students.
Sorry to be so lengthy but it is so hard to be short and to the point with questions like this and I could have kept writing for another several pages on this subject but if you have any other specific questions, then I can answer those.
Best,
Grandmaster Kuoha

[Karazenpo]

Hello again Gm. Kuoho, hope all is well. Grandmaster, one of my hobbies is the history of our Hawaiian-derived Kenpo/Kempo arts and I have a question that keeps coming back to me that I have no answer for. My friend, Sigung John Bishop has shown a superb short video of the late Professor Chow and by all means, there is no doubt, in my mind anyway, of a serious Chinese martial arts flavor to the Professor's techniques. Now, this is by no means to start a flame war with Tracy's Kenpo at all, I have freinds in this system and have the utmost respect for them. However, on the Tracy website, the Tracys are pretty adament about Hoon Chow not knowing any Kung Fu and that the Professor stated he learned such techniques in dreams. Could you please lay this one to rest once and for all for us since, like stated above, looking at the Professor move, well, no doubt in my mind there's a kung fu influence there! Thank you. With Respect, Professor Joe Shuras

[Thunderbolt]

Grandmaster Kuoha,

thank you very much for taking your time to answer our questions. I have 3 more questions and I hope you will answer them in your free time.

1- Because you had a close relationship with Chow and his wife, can you tell us more about Chow's background martial art after training with this incredible individual for many years.?

Did Chow learn Kung Fu from his father or he learned martial art from Mitose or anybody else.?

2- What makes Karaho so different from AK, kajukenbo, and other kenpo/kempo system.?

3- As we know, the martial art system is changing. As a sucessor, a leader, and an inheritor of Karaho system, what is your response to people who say that you don't teach a *true* karaho system.?

My last question doesn't challenge your ability or credibility in your leadership and teaching karaho system in any way. I hope you understand that.

I read a few posts about this person teaching this and that person teaching that in the forum. Therefore, I and other would like to know your feeling about this particular sensitive question.

thank you again.

[Hand Sword]

Thank You for your response GM Kuoha, I apologize for asking too vague of a question, to narrow it down, I guess the question would be better put: If you could (or ever did) ask Professor Chow, if there was truly one thing he wanted to convey to his most trusted students about his system, that would sum up his way of applying kempo, what would it be?
In regards to feeling like you were too lengthy, don't worry about it, it truly is an honor to be able to communicate with a master of your caliber, and history. I'm sure all of us here would love for you to go on and on in your responses. Much respect to you and yours sir!

[Grasshoppah]

Hi GM Kuoha,

I have an uncle in Hawaii who is still alive and well and lives every moment practicing. He knew Prof. Chow very well and says he was the most terrific martial artist he ever seen. He told me about one time they had demonstrated at the Blaisdel arena and Prof. Chow had gotten stabbed in the leg and the knife went right through. Has Prof. Chow ever talked to you about this demo?

[gmkuoha]

Hello again Gm. Kuoho, hope all is well. Grandmaster, one of my hobbies is the history of our Hawaiian-derived Kenpo/Kempo arts and I have a question that keeps coming back to me that I have no answer for. My friend, Sigung John Bishop has shown a superb short video of the late Professor Chow and by all means, there is no doubt, in my mind anyway, of a serious Chinese martial arts flavor to the Professor's techniques. Now, this is by no means to start a flame war with Tracy's Kenpo at all, I have freinds in this system and have the utmost respect for them. However, on the Tracy website, the Tracys are pretty adament about Hoon Chow not knowing any Kung Fu and that the Professor stated he learned such techniques in dreams. Could you please lay this one to rest once and for all for us since, like stated above, looking at the Professor move, well, no doubt in my mind there's a kung fu influence there! Thank you. With Respect, Professor Joe Shuras* Well, I didn't know Hoon Chow but got word from many conversations with Professor Chow that his learning came from his father and if he did in fact learn it in a dream, then it must have been a fantastic dream. Master Kuheana and Dr. Perry both say that indeed his father was a well trained kung fu stylists and I tend to believe them more. What's your opinion? That website also provides readers that there was a Mormon Kenpo taining and that Professor Chow, Ed Parker would not teach anyone in the beginning if they were not Mormons. I am a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) and proud to be one, but I can tell you from checking records in the church, Professor Chow was never nor did he ever join the church. In fact one of his relunctant views to train me again in the 70's was that because I was a Mormon and he did not like them. It was due to his dislike of Ed Parker and he felt that he deceived him and thought that all members of the church would do that for monetary gain. If this is true then he found out that I was very different. So back to your question, I have to believe what Professor Chow had told me and other students that met and trained with him from our school here that it was so, that he acquired his kung fu knowledge from his dad. And Professor was many things...but he was not a liar and spoke truer then anyone else I have ever met.
Grandmaster Kuoha

[gmkuoha]

Grandmaster Kuoha,

thank you very much for taking your time to answer our questions. I have 3 more questions and I hope you will answer them in your free time.

1- Because you had a close relationship with Chow and his wife, can you tell us more about Chow's background martial art after training with this incredible individual for many years.?

* He started his training at around 7-8 years old and it was learning from his father. As a teenager he had already started to put things together of what he had learned to make it more effective. His training and foundation came from his father, but his real knowledge came from the streets. Professor was one that never backed down from a fight even though he was a short man in statue. He became so powerful and read allot about many martial artists. He told me that when he was yound, he saw some photos of Mas Oyama's knuckles and swore that he would make his larger and much more powerful, and he did just that. I used to watch him hold lava rocks in one hand and punch it with the other and watch it shatter from that powerful blow. Imagine him hitting someone with that same blow, which he did and Dr. Perry can attest to his strength. Patsy was his comforter and was the sweetest person you would ever want to meet. It's appauling that after the death of Professor Chow she was placed in a retirement home where no one looked after her. It was then that we helped put her in a smaller home where they could spend more time with her. Every other week I paid one of my family members that lived out there to visit her and take her to the gravesite and store and buy her things that she wanted. We helped pay for her stay and she would tell me that no one ever came to see her, not even a few of Professor Chow's students that he had, even though they lived on the islands.
Did Chow learn Kung Fu from his father or he learned martial art from Mitose or anybody else.?

2- What makes Karaho so different from AK, kajukenbo, and other kenpo/kempo system.?

** They are all very good systems and many of my friends are leaders and instructors of these systems. I think if you had to put it all in one statement, I would say that the Chinese Kara-Ho Kempo Karate System is the original and only true system of Professor Chow.

3- As we know, the martial art system is changing. As a sucessor, a leader, and an inheritor of Karaho system, what is your response to people who say that you don't teach a *true* karaho system.?

** It's unfortunate but jealousey is what makes people say those things. If you don't have what someone has and you want it, the only easy way to make yourself look good in their minds is to harp on the other. I have had to live with that ever since Professor Chow passed away in 1987 and after I ended up on the cover of Inside Karate Magazine, there were many threats. To me it doesn't bother me, I have been in law enforcement for many years retiring, faced many dangers including fighting in a riot and came out smelling like a rose. I've had a father who was a champion lua man on the islands and is a full bloodied Hawaiian and a very massave man and have had to live with his abuse all my life. I too have had real life altercations and so it doesn't bother me. I have thousands of dedicated students in 20 various countries of the world and many of them are former Recon Snipers from the gulf war, one of which was the instructor for all the recons in the marine corps, beside many others and they all look out for me. Though in the beginning the editor of IK wrote that many were writing letters of derogotory statements, but none would make the challenge to my face. I am older now but allot more wiser and have allot to give to all those that want to learn and I am doing what I believe my journey on this earth is all about and what Professor Chow wanted me to accomplish. I don't have time to talk about others, because if I have nothing good to say about them I won't say anything. I know that what goes around, will eventually come around and I don't want any negativity coming back at me. I have a wonderful daughter that has made it her life to train and teach. She still remembers the words of Professor Chow when she was little and he said that someday she will be running his system. That is exactly what this is, "his" system. It is not mine like many refer it to, I am only the keeper of this great system.

My last question doesn't challenge your ability or credibility in your leadership and teaching karaho system in any way. I hope you understand that.

* Yes, I understand what you are asking so don't worry. I am not sensitive like many people that I know.

I read a few posts about this person teaching this and that person teaching that in the forum. Therefore, I and other would like to know your feeling about this particular sensitive question.

* And you got it!

thank you again.Best of everything,
Grandmaster Kuoha
PS. I appreciate you referring me to my title rather then GM like some others do. That is the initials for General Motors and I certainly am not General Motors.

[gmkuoha]

Hi GM Kuoha,

I have an uncle in Hawaii who is still alive and well and lives every moment practicing. He knew Prof. Chow very well and says he was the most terrific martial artist he ever seen. He told me about one time they had demonstrated at the Blaisdel arena and Prof. Chow had gotten stabbed in the leg and the knife went right through. Has Prof. Chow ever talked to you about this demo?* The thing about Professor Chow was that he was a very proud man so he wouldn't talk much about when he was injured but Dr. Perry did inform me of this dermo. What I heard was that he was busy watching the other opponents and they used real weapons in those days, and the student attacked him with the knife and stabbed him. The technique was completed though I have a hunch with a lot more power then it would have, and blood was pouring all over and someone suggested that he go to the hospital. Professor declined and said all he needed was a bandaid. Dr. Perry was called in his office the next day because the bleading would not stop and was going to stitch it but Professor refused so they had to do a butterfly and bandage it real good. I heard that Professor went home and poured Dai Jow on it that he made himself and the bleeding stopped. Someday I will tell you how Dr. Perry met Professor Chow, but right now I have very little time.

[John Bishop]

However, on the Tracy website, the Tracys are pretty adament about Hoon Chow not knowing any Kung Fu and that the Professor stated he learned such techniques in dreams.
Professor Joe ShurasI need to clarify something about the premise being put forward now days that "Professor Chow learned kung fu from his grandfather, who appeared to him in a dream".
That premise is probably derived from a magazine interview I did with Sijo Adriano Emperado in 1992. We were discussing various names that Prof. Chow had used to describe his system over the years. Names like "Thunderbolt Karate", "Shaolin Kenpo", "Goshin Jutsu Kai Kenpo", and "Kara-ho Kenpo".
When asked what the origin of the name "Kara-ho" was. Sijo Emperado said that Prof. Chow told him that he had a dream, in which his grandfather was teaching him some kung fu techniques, and his grandfather had called them "Kara-ho". Now this was in no way meant to infer that Prof. Chow received his kung fu training in dreams. It was just what Prof. Chow told Sijo Emperado about the origin of the name "Kara-ho". I spent the last two saturdays with Sijo Emperado, and have known him personally for 14 years. And to this day he has the utmost respect and admiration for Prof. Chow. Sijo Emperado has been in the martial arts for over 65 years. He has trained in boxing,escrima,judo, kenpo, kung fu. To this day he only refers to one man as "my teacher", that man is Prof. Chow.
I know that there are other so called kenpo historians who say there is no evidence to prove that Hoon Chow knew kung fu. But there is also no evidence that proves that Hoon Chow didn't know kung fu.
Kung fu knowledge is pretty common amon'st the older generations of Chinese. Drive thru any Chinese community on a saturday morning, and you'll see old people doing tai chi and other forms of kung fu in the neighborhood parks.
I think the biggest proof that Prof. Chow knew kung fu is the fact that he could do it. Many of the old timers have seen him do it, and it's obvious that there are kung fu elements in his system. So, since no one has ever come forward to claim Prof. Chow as a student, it's very likely he learned it from a family member.
Just my humble opinion.

[Karazenpo]

Thank you, Grandmaster Kuoha and Sigung John Bishop. Yes, after viewing the video, as I stated in my post, there is no doubt in my mind of his Kung Fu training. I'm glad it is cleared up once and for all so when I am challenged on my view I can now back it up. I do admit, after initially reading the Tracy website several years ago, I thought there version to be true. However, I have since learned not to believe something just because it's posted on an official website. I also have discovered, in all due respect to the Tracys', that they are mistaken on Mitose's Yoshida lineage to Kosho also, at one time I had believed that. Hey, live and learn!, lol. Thanks again, Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

[Thunderbolt]

Thank you, Grandmaster Kuoha and Sigung John Bishop. Yes, after viewing the video, .....
which video.??? please share with everybody here. thanks

[John Bishop]

which video.??? please share with everybody here. thanks

http://www.kajukenboinfo.com/professor_chow.html

[Jagdish]

Dear GrandMaster Kuoha:

Your replies are very much appreciated. :asian:

(I beg your pardon for the GM initials).

Yours in Martial Arts,

Jagdish

:uhyeah:

[gmkuoha]

Apologies accepted!
Grandmaster Kuoha