How NOT to use your training

[Flea]

I've been at my new job at a community mental health agency for a month now, and I really enjoy it. I spend a lot of time in the midst of suffering, but my clients are good people in tough times working hard to improve their lot. I feel honored to be part of their process, and while I come home stressed at the end of the day, I know it's worth it because I'm making a real difference in people's lives.

For the most part my training period is done, but I still shadow my coworkers from time to time. This week I met a client ... yeah. My coworker has been working with her for almost a decade and he's very fond of her, and I could see that she's very sweet despite her being way out in a very distant orbit. My coworker had to break some horrid news to her - she's being evicted - and she didn't take it well. She has absolutely no resources, so I don't blame her. As she brutalized an empty plastic soda bottle my coworker quietly said "Step back, Flea." He was really a master, and ultimately he gave her a hug and left her smiling 20 minutes later.

On the way back to the office he offered me a quickie fireside chat about how it's important to always be aware of one's surroundings and identify exit points (martial artist? I'm thinking so.) She's never become violent toward him, but she did tear after a different caseworker about 15 years ago. And never hit a client! Even if it weren't completely wrong, the blizzard of paperwork it generates isn't worth it. I was completely mystified as to why he felt the need to make that last point - I hadn't mentioned my Systema around the office at all. Once I got home I did some sniffing around and found that one of my references brought it up. :duh:

All of which brings me to my point in my usual rambling way: I have a sinking feeling she's going to be part of my caseload. I really don't think she would come after me, but what if she does? I think I can handle myself with a middle-aged woman in poor health, but that's what scares me. My worst fear is that my training would kick in and she'd be on the floor before I had a chance to think about it. Whether it injured her or not, I'd be wracked with guilt, it would reflect on my employer, and probably kill my fledgling career.

Has anyone here had that problem of training overriding conscious thought, if only for a split second? How does one prevent that from happening? Or am I typing through my hat here?

[K-man]

Brush up on your fence, practise your defection and redirection and ensure that you can release from grabs without having to hit. 'Conversational' stance with hands up is also important (part of fence).

Good luck with your new position. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Flea]

"Fence?" Not familiar. Is that a reference to fencing? Or to escape by hopping over one? :uhyeah:

[Touch Of Death]

I've been at my new job at a community mental health agency for a month now, and I really enjoy it. I spend a lot of time in the midst of suffering, but my clients are good people in tough times working hard to improve their lot. I feel honored to be part of their process, and while I come home stressed at the end of the day, I know it's worth it because I'm making a real difference in people's lives.

For the most part my training period is done, but I still shadow my coworkers from time to time. This week I met a client ... yeah. My coworker has been working with her for almost a decade and he's very fond of her, and I could see that she's very sweet despite her being way out in a very distant orbit. My coworker had to break some horrid news to her - she's being evicted - and she didn't take it well. She has absolutely no resources, so I don't blame her. As she brutalized an empty plastic soda bottle my coworker quietly said "Step back, Flea." He was really a master, and ultimately he gave her a hug and left her smiling 20 minutes later.

On the way back to the office he offered me a quickie fireside chat about how it's important to always be aware of one's surroundings and identify exit points (martial artist? I'm thinking so.) She's never become violent toward him, but she did tear after a different caseworker about 15 years ago. And never hit a client! Even if it weren't completely wrong, the blizzard of paperwork it generates isn't worth it. I was completely mystified as to why he felt the need to make that last point - I hadn't mentioned my Systema around the office at all. Once I got home I did some sniffing around and found that one of my references brought it up. :duh:

All of which brings me to my point in my usual rambling way: I have a sinking feeling she's going to be part of my caseload. I really don't think she would come after me, but what if she does? I think I can handle myself with a middle-aged woman in poor health, but that's what scares me. My worst fear is that my training would kick in and she'd be on the floor before I had a chance to think about it. Whether it injured her or not, I'd be wracked with guilt, it would reflect on my employer, and probably kill my fledgling career.

Has anyone here had that problem of training overriding conscious thought, if only for a split second? How does one prevent that from happening? Or am I typing through my hat here?You need a bit more training.
Sean

[Flea]

You need a bit more training.
Sean

Well that goes without saying. Even if I were an expert who'd been doing it for 60 years there's always room for improvement. Could you be a little more specific?

[K-man]

"Fence?" Not familiar. Is that a reference to fencing? Or to escape by hopping over one? :uhyeah:
Basically a barrier between you and your nemesis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4a3dscMbjY&feature=related

Geoff Thompson made it popular. :asian:

[Touch Of Death]

Well that goes without saying. Even if I were an expert who'd been doing it for 60 years there's always room for improvement. Could you be a little more specific?Well, I have been in the arts for over twenty years. One rule that has been imposed on me, for good reason, is that I am not allowed to hurt the students. You can't accidently hurt kids, women, or the men. This requires a willingness to get hit without needing to retaliate, a little sticking hands (chi sau), and some grappling. In short, the more control you have the better.
Sean

[Flea]

That makes sense. Compassion has to play its part as well, especially in a situation like this. If she were to pop me, I couldn't take it personally for at least a dozen good reasons. I am a firm believer that most aggression comes from fear, and she has good reason to be afraid right now. That's where my agency comes in - we're going to help her find new housing if we can, or at least help her from winding up on the street or in a warehouse. It'll be an interesting next 30 days.

[Supra Vijai]

My worst fear is that my training would kick in and she'd be on the floor before I had a chance to think about it. Whether it injured her or not, I'd be wracked with guilt, it would reflect on my employer, and probably kill my fledgling career.

Has anyone here had that problem of training overriding conscious thought, if only for a split second? How does one prevent that from happening? Or am I typing through my hat here?

Interesting that this comes up now.... I'm in a similar situation at my work... Couple of weeks ago I had just finished a 12 hour shift, was half asleep and walking away from my desk lost in my own head when someone grabbed my wrist (quite firmly mind you) and said "you! where the **** do you think you're going?" before yanking me back. I was still in my own head for the most part and didn't register anything apart from the aggressive tone and sudden backwards movement. That coupled with the fact that I'd spent a decent amount of time practising limb controls just recently, what came out was just that. He wasn't injured, I released the lock fairly quickly and walked off but in the eyes of one of the managers it was an over reaction because he was "clearly joking". Looking forward to a chat with them today to find out what's happening with it... *sigh*

[Touch Of Death]

That makes sense. Compassion has to play its part as well, especially in a situation like this. If she were to pop me, I couldn't take it personally for at least a dozen good reasons. I am a firm believer that most aggression comes from fear, and she has good reason to be afraid right now. That's where my agency comes in - we're going to help her find new housing if we can, or at least help her from winding up on the street or in a warehouse. It'll be an interesting next 30 days. My point, I suppose, is I think jobs like this are where you end up using your training all the time.
Sean

[Flea]

Yes! I'm rapidly becoming a master of Red Tape Fu and its close cousin, Schmoo Zing Do.

[Flea]

when someone grabbed my wrist (quite firmly mind you) and said "you! where the **** do you think you're going?" before yanking me back.

That's one coworker who needs to be fired. Unacceptable.

[Rayban]

I'm quite advanced in Red Tape Fu myself... Not the funnest of art forms when it takes 4 days of memo writing and collecting signatures to order a $120.00 electronic component :|

I think awareness is really the only thing that needs some work. Position yourself with obstacles in the way if you feel things may get out of hand. It might buy you the extra second you need to evade or redirect painlessly.

Supra, if they have any shred of brain in their panel, you'll get off with a warning and they'll tell this other tool to shape up... Jokes or not, that sort of "humour" is not acceptable int he workplace. Especially one as corporate as yours. Ask them this. How would they feel if you were a woman, who was "jokingly" manhandled like that?

I would have done the same thing out of sheer reaction. "I was only joking" is the sort of thing bullies always pull out when things backfire.

[chinto]

Interesting that this comes up now.... I'm in a similar situation at my work... Couple of weeks ago I had just finished a 12 hour shift, was half asleep and walking away from my desk lost in my own head when someone grabbed my wrist (quite firmly mind you) and said "you! where the **** do you think you're going?" before yanking me back. I was still in my own head for the most part and didn't register anything apart from the aggressive tone and sudden backwards movement. That coupled with the fact that I'd spent a decent amount of time practising limb controls just recently, what came out was just that. He wasn't injured, I released the lock fairly quickly and walked off but in the eyes of one of the managers it was an over reaction because he was "clearly joking". Looking forward to a chat with them today to find out what's happening with it... *sigh*

OK that at least in my state is a felony. its called 'Assault and Battery.' You in my state at least have the right to do anything you need to do to stop that attack! Personally I would say that the offender in this case was lucky to receive no injury's for his/her stupidity!

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO PUT THEIR HANDS ON YOU!
I would point that out to the manager, and that you could press felony charges if you so wished.

[David43515]

Unfortunately I have had 2 instances where training took over and reflex beat thought off of the line. The last one was about 10 years ago and wound up with me (6'0" 260 lbs with 25+ yrs of training at the time) dodging and planting a straight right in the face of a high school girl who was working for me. (17 years old 5'6" maybe 115lbs......in pigtails.)
She cracked a joke and then started dancing around like a boxer. I knew she was playing around. But when she took a step forward, dropped her shoulder, twisted at the waist, and twitched her fist forward I smothered her hand and had my punch 2/3 of the way there before I rialized anything was happening. I can`t tell you the horror that goes through your head at a moment like that where you know you`re not gonna be able to stop in time.

I put the brakes on as fast as I could and relaxed my hand so it would collapse on impact, but when I hit her squre in the nose her little head snapped back and her eyes glazed over for a sec. I spent every other moment for a month appologizing. She laughed it off, but I felt so bad. I think it was the blonde pigtails. It felt like I was punching Heidi from the fairy tail.

[Himura Kenshin]

As long as you practice some de-escalation drills you should be able to prevent this new client from getting angry enough to attack you.

Your safety must be first and foremost, if worse comes to worse you have to do what you must to keep yourself safe. You could always get another job, but you can't replace you.:)

I'm not familiar with systema at all, so I couldn't tell you how to use your training to your benefit other than what K-man already said, and practicing being aware of her mood so you can diffuse it if possible.

[Flea]

Arigato, Kenshin-san. I think my coworker will be the best resource on that since he's known her for some years.

Really, from a professional standpoint I only have two options. De-escalate and escape. I don't consider any kind of offense to be acceptable under these circumstances, even if I were off the clock. I know how to use both skills, but there's always room for improvement (http://chirontraining.com/Site/Vancouver,_WA.html). Thanks for the feedback, all.

[Dirty Dog]

The specifics of the situation determine what you can do. Your employer cannot expect you to allow yourself to be injured, but it's certainly reasonable to ensure that you do nothing more than is absolutely necessary.

In the ER, I deal with intoxicated, assaultive, manic etc patients all the time. The most important thing for me to know is their status. If they're on a hold for some reason then I cannot let them leave, nor will I allow them to hurt anyone. If they're free to leave, then I'll show them the door. If not, and they're a danger to themselves or others, then we have no choice but to put them down and restrain them. Physical restraints will nearly always be followed by chemical. Once they're sedated, things get much easier.

Practice deescalation techniques. When those don't work, I find pressure points, joint locks and various take downs (not throws) very useful. They don't injure the patient, and you'd be amazed at how many of these patients have a completely intact pain avoidance reflex.

Experience will make a huge difference.

[mook jong man]

It would be beneficial to learn a few wrestling techniques such as arm drags etc .
They are great for enabling you to get around to someones back so you can get away from their main striking weapons while you apply a restraint , take down , choke etc.

[Josh Oakley]

Part of your preparation for your work needs to be asking yourself "what ifs" and deciding in advance what you'll do. Deciding in advance, visualizing the situation, and rehearsing in your mind allows you to respond to the situation without having to think very much.

It works on the same principle in which you gained your self-defense skills. It's also a critical part of training for any martial artist who gains a degree of skill. There needs to be a continuum of force, not just a "if they throw this punch, I do this" set of routines.

[Apatride]

Unfortunately I have had 2 instances where training took over and reflex beat thought off of the line. The last one was about 10 years ago and wound up with me (6'0" 260 lbs with 25+ yrs of training at the time) dodging and planting a straight right in the face of a high school girl who was working for me. (17 years old 5'6" maybe 115lbs......in pigtails.)
She cracked a joke and then started dancing around like a boxer. I knew she was playing around. But when she took a step forward, dropped her shoulder, twisted at the waist, and twitched her fist forward I smothered her hand and had my punch 2/3 of the way there before I rialized anything was happening. I can`t tell you the horror that goes through your head at a moment like that where you know you`re not gonna be able to stop in time.

I put the brakes on as fast as I could and relaxed my hand so it would collapse on impact, but when I hit her squre in the nose her little head snapped back and her eyes glazed over for a sec. I spent every other moment for a month appologizing. She laughed it off, but I felt so bad. I think it was the blonde pigtails. It felt like I was punching Heidi from the fairy tail.

Come on, we have all wanted to do this at some stage, she was so annoying!! ;)

[Catalyst]

As part of your training program do you have to go through any type of Crisis Prevention/De-Escalation training like CPI or SCIP?

I believe that our member "BlueKey88" actually works for the Institute that originated CPI. It's better to hear it from the source, than from me.

Where I work, New York State requires that all of our Direct Care and Clinical employees be re-certified annually in a program like CPI or SCIP; and they check and double-check and then triple-check that training requirements/certifications are met.

Hitting a consumer of our services is an extremely serious offense and unless proper protocol is used, even in the administration of CPI, will lead to immediate termination and referral to law enforcement.

If your Employer (or the State Licensing Board) doesn't require a program like this, maybe you could mention it to them; to see the feasibility of bringing something like this into the training curriculum?

Just a suggestion

[Flea]

Experience will make a huge difference.

Yes! And I had a learning experience yesterday when a client went off on a third party. I didn't handle it to my own satisfaction, and sadly I lost a fair amount of sleep over-analyzing. But it's okay - it's experience, and that's what I came to this job for. I probably won't have another chance to get it right for a while as I expect this client to be banned from the 'stablishment. Of course for the time being he'll be asking me to help him get un-banned ... again.

Dirty Dog, does your ER administration know you're applying joint locks and such? What's their policy on that?

[Flea]

Hitting a consumer of our services is an extremely serious offense and unless proper protocol is used, even in the administration of CPI, will lead to immediate termination and referral to law enforcement.


Catalyst, that's exactly what I'm talking about. In hindsight I should have worded the thread title as "How to NOT use your training" because that's my goal. I think it's totally reprehensible, but body memory is what it is. I'm looking for ways to circumvent that in order to remain compassionate and completely professional.

[StudentCarl]

I think one of the first things you need to think through is your responsibilities in the situation. If you are only responsible for your own safety, it's different from when you represent an employer. It also matters whether you have responsibility for the safety of others, including protecting people from hurting themselves.

Your first and best defense is de-escalation and distance. Verbal Judo is a good book on verbal skills. Physically, your first priorities should be to preserve distance and monitor for the presence of possible weapons. As mentioned above, if caught by surprise you are actually in a decent legal position as long as you don't use more force than is justified. I work in a high school. The basic rule is that you don't strike people if you represent an employer or have responsibility for the safety of others. People tend to consider that a counterattack rather than defense, though I disagree.

I find awareness and verbal skills most important, with secondary emphasis on releases, deflections and footwork. I suggest you incorporate such situations into your training, including threat evaluation and verbal skills. If your martial arts trainer doesn't do this you should hunt up some supplemental training or at least video such as The Missing Link (available through Paladin).

[Touch Of Death]

Unfortunately I have had 2 instances where training took over and reflex beat thought off of the line. The last one was about 10 years ago and wound up with me (6'0" 260 lbs with 25+ yrs of training at the time) dodging and planting a straight right in the face of a high school girl who was working for me. (17 years old 5'6" maybe 115lbs......in pigtails.)
She cracked a joke and then started dancing around like a boxer. I knew she was playing around. But when she took a step forward, dropped her shoulder, twisted at the waist, and twitched her fist forward I smothered her hand and had my punch 2/3 of the way there before I rialized anything was happening. I can`t tell you the horror that goes through your head at a moment like that where you know you`re not gonna be able to stop in time.

I put the brakes on as fast as I could and relaxed my hand so it would collapse on impact, but when I hit her squre in the nose her little head snapped back and her eyes glazed over for a sec. I spent every other moment for a month appologizing. She laughed it off, but I felt so bad. I think it was the blonde pigtails. It felt like I was punching Heidi from the fairy tail.That was bad. LOL

[chinto]

ya it does happen. I hope she learned a real lesson there. I know it was a bit traumatic for you, provably worse for you then her. I also hope that after that she refrained from such horse play, because in this day and age, one or both of you could get arrested if some one saw it and called the cops thinking it was an actual assault and not joking around. All the schools in my state have a "zero tolerance policy for any violance." I understand in some of the schools that kind of joking will get you arrested!! insane but apparently their policy.

personally I hate that stupid PSA I hear on the radio.. the one about "teaching your son to hit a base ball but that you need to teach him not to hit girls" ..... and " all violance against women is wrong".. NO, all violence that is not in self defense is USUALLY WRONG!


there are women and girls out there who will attack you, and even kill you! I say if they lay hands on you, treat them like any other attacker... but ya, I bet that was a bad moment when your training took over. but it does happen.



( no I don't go around hitting girls, or any one else for that matter with out huge cause!! But, for 40 years I have been told to treat them like men...sheesh..)

I say self defense is always right... and that joking around making movements to hit some one can be a very bad idea.

[Bruno@MT]

Really, from a professional standpoint I only have two options. De-escalate and escape. I don't consider any kind of offense to be acceptable under these circumstances, even if I were off the clock. I know how to use both skills, but there's always room for improvement (http://chirontraining.com/Site/Vancouver,_WA.html). Thanks for the feedback, all.

A recent new member in our dojo works in the emergency admittance ward of the local psychiatric hospital. Getting attacked out of the blue (no warning signs at all) is a daily occurrence for her.

I noticed something different about her when she didn't shy away when I grabbed her throat in a general self defense partner drill. Most women who are new to MA are very awkward about close physical contact like grabbing a throat with both hands. She wasn't. To her it was all in a days work, and she finally decided on taking MA classes so sh would learn to cope with physical violence.

I asked her about what you said, and she said it really didn't apply to her job. If you get attacked by a mental patient, you use whatever force necessarry to subdue them if you are in immediate danger. Those people are generally very strong if they 'flip out' (my apologies for the term). In case of such violence, breaking a thumb or kneeing someone in the groin is perfectly acceptable. Rule number 1: your own saftey comes first.

[Bruno@MT]

As part of your training program do you have to go through any type of Crisis Prevention/De-Escalation training like CPI or SCIP?

I believe that our member "BlueKey88" actually works for the Institute that originated CPI. It's better to hear it from the source, than from me.

Where I work, New York State requires that all of our Direct Care and Clinical employees be re-certified annually in a program like CPI or SCIP; and they check and double-check and then triple-check that training requirements/certifications are met.

Hitting a consumer of our services is an extremely serious offense and unless proper protocol is used, even in the administration of CPI, will lead to immediate termination and referral to law enforcement.


So (example from a dojo member who works in the emergency admittance ward of a psychiatric ward) a teen has a psychotic episode, grabs you by the throat and starts squeezing.

At that moment, you take out your checklist, triple check that you are acting according to policy, ask a colleague to doublecheck, and upon confirmation you administer the approved counter technique for that situation, provided you are still concious at the time?

[WC_lun]

Martial arts training should include more than what hapens after the point of contact. Generally speaking, if contact has happened then there have been some failures already. Of course, every situation is different, but an altercation starts before physical contact is made.

The "fence" reference is to getting your hands up and between you and your target. It helps you keep your space, which in turn gives you more time to do whatever you need to do.

[stevedav]

I think You can't accidentally injure children, women, or the men. This needs a enthusiasm to get strike without requiring to retaliate, a little attaching hands (chi sau), and some grappling. In short, the more command you have the better.

[granfire]

I know this thread is a wee bit old (and I did not read all the responses)

But I think it's unlikely that you are in dabger of hurting anybody on the job.

I am guessing here (projecting from me, of course) you would be in a company mindset, not in your private 'walking down the road' one.

plus working with a person, you read them and know what to expect. Which is different than not paying attention to the other person in a casual meeting.

[Lee Mainprize]

enjoy visiting GT stuff again - did something with Jamie Clubb recently who's a GT and Mo Teague Instructor.

[Monroe]

Well, I have been in the arts for over twenty years. One rule that has been imposed on me, for good reason, is that I am not allowed to hurt the students. You can't accidently hurt kids, women, or the men. This requires a willingness to get hit without needing to retaliate, a little sticking hands (chi sau), and some grappling. In short, the more control you have the better.
Sean

I hope you aren't assuming that the mentally ill woman isn't going to do too much harm if she hits him. Domestic violence and mental illness runs in my Dad's family. I'd hate to see the original poster get hurt allowing this woman to hit him. She could knock him out cold. I don't have advice other than: "Don't let mentally ill people hit you." I've seen exactly what kind of damage can happen.

[Cyriacus]

I hope you aren't assuming that the mentally ill woman isn't going to do too much harm if she hits him. Domestic violence and mental illness runs in my Dad's family. I'd hate to see the original poster get hurt allowing this woman to hit him. She could knock him out cold. I don't have advice other than: "Don't let mentally ill people hit you." I've seen exactly what kind of damage can happen.
Yes.
Im inclined to Agree.
The Chemical and Physical Reactions a Psychiatric Outburst can cause are not very nice.
And the Issue isnt even that She could Knock him out. Its that under the Circumstances, Shed probably beat his Unconscious Body.

I used to know a Manic Individual. Completely Swell, until he was Upset with something.
It is actually rather Remarkable.