JKD instructors

[white dragon]

In another post I read that Bruce only certified 3 people in JKD, was this so they could teach it? If so then only the people certified by them could teach it, right?
In which case is there anyway to trace back all the people qualified to teach JKD?

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by white dragon
In another post I read that Bruce only certified 3 people in JKD, was this so they could teach it? If so then only the people certified by them could teach it, right?
In which case is there anyway to trace back all the people qualified to teach JKD?

In his lifetime, Bruce Lee only certified three people to teach for him: Taky Kimura, James Lee (deceased - no relation), and Dan Inosanto. Theoretically, anyone claiming to teach JKD has to be able to trace their lineage back to one of these three men. From what I recall, James Lee never certified anyone to teach before his death. Having said that, then any one claiming to be a certified JKD instructor should be able to trace their lineage to Dan Inosanto or Taky Kimura. Example (and I hope he doesn't mind): IFAJKD (a MartialTalk board member) is a certified JKD instructor under Paul Vunak, who in turn is certified under Dan Inosanto.

If someone is claiming JKD certification, they should have no qualms about you asking for proof. If someone claims certification under Inosanto, I think it's a simple matter of calling up the Inosanto Academy to verify this.

One thing you'd need to watch for are 'seminar instructors'...people who attended one JKD seminar or another and have magically become certified to teach JKD. It isn't so bad if they say up front that they're just sharing what they learned at a JKD seminar, just so long as they aren't claiming to be certified instructors.

But, we've covered this a few times already.

Cthulhu

[IFAJKD]

It's rare that I have time to post these days. Busy opening a new school yada yada yada. Cthulhu is right on. He has a great understanding of JKD history. Please inquire about any Instructor that claims JKD. There is also the entire issue of concepts vs original jkd crap. (issue is crap not the OJKD) Bruce had seen the future in many ways as to what would happen over JKD. It is so much a way of looking at martial arts as well as a way of training in them. You cannot have one without the other. JKD Instructors personal understanding of these concepts and how to train them varries tremendously. Attributes vs technique....FMA for sensitivity and combative training, OJKD for concepts as well as technique, Identification of additional attributes that make a well rounded fighter. All of these things are training enhancers if the Instructor understands them. I am in such a hurry that I have not done this justice, sorry. but safe to say when in doubt. Ask Cthuy

[white dragon]

Thanks for the words of advice and enducated insight! As for Cthulhu I think he has an great understanding of more than just JKD, by reading the board! :)

Is there a website of something that exisits that can show all those who were certified under Bruce Lee and who those students then trained to instructor level? Could help stop those claiming to be instructors damaging the reputation of JKD... as seems to happen in TKD (reading the boards). Maybe setting one up now before it becomes too hard to trace back would be a good idea....?

[KumaSan]

Inosanto.com (http://www.inosanto.com) is planning on having a page for this, but it's not up yet. If you have any questions about instructors, try the forums over there, they are also extremely friendly and willing to help.

[white dragon]

now you see, that's why I like this place so much, you ask a question, and you get a good answer. :) thanks!

[KumaSan]

Glad to help. Helpful is my middle name.

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by white dragon

Thanks for the words of advice and enducated insight! As for Cthulhu I think he has an great understanding of more than just JKD, by reading the board! :)

Is there a website of something that exisits that can show all those who were certified under Bruce Lee and who those students then trained to instructor level? Could help stop those claiming to be instructors damaging the reputation of JKD... as seems to happen in TKD (reading the boards). Maybe setting one up now before it becomes too hard to trace back would be a good idea....?

I'm just a hack :)

As for those who got certified in JKD directly by Bruce Lee, there are only three:

1) Taky Kimura
2) James Lee (no relation; deceased)
3) Dan Inosanto

As I've said many times before, anyone claiming certification in JKD has to be able to trace their lineage to one of these three men. Actually, probably two, since I'm pretty sure James Lee never promoted anyone to instructor level before he passed away in the early 70's. Taky Kimura typically only has a few students. Dan Inosanto has certified quite a few people. However, you have to watch it with people claiming certification under Inosanto. There are many many people who attend one or two Inosanto seminars and use the seminar certificates to promote themselves as JKD instructors. However, it's really easy to verify their claims. Just get in touch with the Inosanto Academy. They'll be more than glad to tell you if someone is a legitimate instructor under Inosanto or not.

Paul Vunak, an instructor certified by Dan Inosanto, has what looks like a fairly comprehensive list of people he's certified at http://fighting.net/instructors.html. Our very own IFAJKD is one of them!

Hopefully, the Inosanto Academy Website will be even more comprehensive with its instructor 'family tree'.

Good luck!

Cthulhu

[donald]

IFAJKD,

Is there a primary governing body overseeing JKD instructors in the USA ? Have you ever heard of a gentleman named Fred Thompson? He would hail from the greater Cleveland area of Ohio. He is a former kenpo practioner. From the Tracy branch of the tree. Just curious, no beef or anything.


Salute in Christ,
Donald:asian:

[IFAJKD]

Donald:
Actually there isn't right now. Guru Dan Inosanto had begun an orginazation but it didn't really take off or he thought better of it. Linda Lee had begun the JFGFN which is basically for all the OJKD people and refers to JKD as JunFan Jeet Kune Do. Again. Not too successful at this point. I have not heard of Fred Thompson but that doesn't mean anything.
J

[jmdrake]

Hello all,

This thread is full of potential political landmines so I'll try to step carefully. :asian: First let me say that I agree with the assertion that the "original concepts" issue is crap. I will not say that someone isn't doing "real" JKD just because they are doing JKD concepts. However I also respectfully, but adamantly disagree with the assertion that if an instructor can "trace his roots" to Dan Inosanto via certification that he is not a "true" JKD teacher. I disagree with that assertion for several reasons. For one Bruce Lee himself was never certified in anything. What made him great was what he could do, not because someone gave him a piece of paper. Also just because James Lee never bothered certifying anyone doesn't mean that the guys under him weren't any good. I also think that one of the reasons Bruce closed his school what to try to avoid all of the political infighting. Bruce wasn't about "senority" as much as he was about "ability". It's interesting to note that in a phone conversation with Daniel Lee he told him he should help Dan Inosanto in selecting students, even though Dan Inosanto was certified by Bruce and Dan Lee wasn't.

Something else that I agree with is that you should beware of someone that's just had one seminar and is now all of a sudden a teacher. But this type of problem doesn't just come from the seminar attendees, sometimes it originates fromt he seminar facilitators. An example, I currently have one student (whom I teach for free) who had attended a seminar by someone who is "able to trace his lineage" to Dan Inosanto. At the end of the seminar my friend was told "Now go out and teach". My friend replied "Go out at teach what?" To this faciltators credit he did offer to refund my friend's money. But he still has him listed as an assistant instructor under him. Using the "trace your lineage" criteria he should be teaching me since I'm not certified under someone certified under Taky Kimura, James Lee or Dan Inosanto. But by his own admission I'm better at JKD than he is.

Someone raised a question on another forum "JKD - can do you as the name implies." In other words, can you intercept someone's attack and shut him down as quickly as possible? If you can do that and teach others to do the same, then in my book you are doing JKD whether or not you incoporate FMA, Silat or grappling, whether or not you "trace your lineage" back to this person or that person ect. I'm sure some will disagree with me on that, but that's my point of view.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[white dragon]

By that thought then, if you do learn techniques that allow you to "intercept someone's attack and shut him down as quickly as possible" then you are studying JKD? In this case then a large part of my training in TKD is actually JKD. Now that sounds a little stupid and like I'm trying to pick a fight, but I'm really not! It's just that if you're going to stream in people to teach JKD that haven't studied under someone that has spent a long time in it then surely it's going to discredit the art? Look at how TKD has had its reputation damaged by allowing that to happen. I think by even giving JKD a name then it's forcing it to be something that it wasn't intended to be, a system with limits on what you can and can't do. If you don't have a qualification to teach in JKD then you could introduce what ever you wanted into it that other instructors would completely disagree with. For example, the use of high kicks.

Arrrgh, I hate having to type my thoughts out because I start off wanting to make a really good point, and by the time I get to it I tend to have forgotten what the exact point was. But basically I think that if you don't have instructors that have achieved a certain level and can back it up with a certificate then you'll eventually end up with people who don't have a clue what they're doing starting up thir own clubs teaching people worthless techniques. A standard should be there. And if people are claiming to teach Bruce Lee's JKD then they should be able to trace their knowledge back to him. The same way if I was going to advertise that I taught Master Cho TKd, I should be able to show that there's a clear link between him and myself.

[jmdrake]

Hello White Dragon,

I think you've missed the point on a couple of counts. While I'm not out to knock TKD, the last time I looked at it, it had little, if any, interception techniques. It's more "block and counter" than "bridge hit" or "stop hit". Also I'm not saying that its not important to study with someone who's trained in JKD. I'm saying Inosanto lineage is not important. If you take the twin arguments of "instructor must have Inosanto lineage" and "instructor can teach anything from any art as long as he can say he's applying JKD 'concepts'" then you are at PRECISELY the situation that you claim to be arguing against. I'm personally more interested in what someone teaches than what their "pedigree" is. If I'm concerned about someone tracing their "lineage" back then can they trace it back to Bruce Lee? I would rather study under Bob Bremer or Jesse Glover (both who studied under Bruce but were never certified) than studying under someone who has a certificate from someone who has a certificate from Dan Inosanto but freely admits that he doesn't know what he is doing. But hey, you've got to do what's good for you.

Regards,

John M. Drake


Originally posted by white dragon

By that thought then, if you do learn techniques that allow you to "intercept someone's attack and shut him down as quickly as possible" then you are studying JKD? In this case then a large part of my training in TKD is actually JKD. Now that sounds a little stupid and like I'm trying to pick a fight, but I'm really not! It's just that if you're going to stream in people to teach JKD that haven't studied under someone that has spent a long time in it then surely it's going to discredit the art? Look at how TKD has had its reputation damaged by allowing that to happen. I think by even giving JKD a name then it's forcing it to be something that it wasn't intended to be, a system with limits on what you can and can't do. If you don't have a qualification to teach in JKD then you could introduce what ever you wanted into it that other instructors would completely disagree with. For example, the use of high kicks.

Arrrgh, I hate having to type my thoughts out because I start off wanting to make a really good point, and by the time I get to it I tend to have forgotten what the exact point was. But basically I think that if you don't have instructors that have achieved a certain level and can back it up with a certificate then you'll eventually end up with people who don't have a clue what they're doing starting up thir own clubs teaching people worthless techniques. A standard should be there. And if people are claiming to teach Bruce Lee's JKD then they should be able to trace their knowledge back to him. The same way if I was going to advertise that I taught Master Cho TKd, I should be able to show that there's a clear link between him and myself.

[white dragon]

OK before we all get our wires crossed, the reason I asked my original question was because I trained in JKD for about 6 months at a particular. The instructor holds no qualification, but still teaches and charges his students. During my time there I was taught nothing that would really be any use to me. The class included sessions of full contact fighting, which was a big draw for me. However I found after only starting martial arts for just over a year I could easily beat students of his that had trained under him for almost 4 years. This isn't me just blowing my own trumpet, this really worried me as there are guys in my TKD class that could kill me before I could get my hands up, (not that they would ever be down you understand! :) I'm in no way saying this is true of every JKD school and I have no idea if it is, although I assume and want to believe it's a rare exception. However it worries me that people can claim to know JKD and teach people techniques that either aren't practicle or they don't know how to apply the techniques they know. I was also shocked to hear when I did a jump spin side kick that I shouldn't do that as "it wasn't JKD", despite sending my opponent sprawling across the class. This is why I'd like to know if there's a way of checking instructors backgrounds in clubs, to insure they know what they're teaching.

I'm in NO WAY saying that just because someone didn't train under Bruce Lee or one of his direct pupils that what they're doing is in anyway wrong, but I can't help but feel that if JKD keeps letting people with no proof of qualification teach, hold seminars etc then the art is going to get a very bad reputation in the near future, and that would indeed be a very sad thing.

[jmdrake]

Hello White Dragon,

First let me say that I understand your frustration. I trained for about 6 months under a fraud also and all I learned were some warm up excercises and a few punches and kicks. :mad: I guess my main two points are this. 1) There are other students of Bruce Lee's besides the 3 you named that have a lot to offer and 2) even with a certificate that can be traced back to one of the 3 you named there is no guarantee that the instructor actually knows anything. The problem is that there is no real overarching quality control in the JKD world. Other arts have tournaments, review boards, ect. It's probably fair to say that someone who is fully certified under Dan Inosanto knows his stuff. But some of Dan's students have started their own organizations. Are the people who get full instructorship under them reviewed by Sifu Inosanto? If one of these instructors starts his own organization are the instructors he certifies reviewed? Probably the only way to know for sure if someone knows there stuff is to observe a class. Unfortunately sometimes it takes longer to figure out that the instructor has little to offer.

Regards,

John M. Drake


Originally posted by white dragon

OK before we all get our wires crossed, the reason I asked my original question was because I trained in JKD for about 6 months at a particular. The instructor holds no qualification, but still teaches and charges his students. During my time there I was taught nothing that would really be any use to me. The class included sessions of full contact fighting, which was a big draw for me. However I found after only starting martial arts for just over a year I could easily beat students of his that had trained under him for almost 4 years. This isn't me just blowing my own trumpet, this really worried me as there are guys in my TKD class that could kill me before I could get my hands up, (not that they would ever be down you understand! :) I'm in no way saying this is true of every JKD school and I have no idea if it is, although I assume and want to believe it's a rare exception. However it worries me that people can claim to know JKD and teach people techniques that either aren't practicle or they don't know how to apply the techniques they know. I was also shocked to hear when I did a jump spin side kick that I shouldn't do that as "it wasn't JKD", despite sending my opponent sprawling across the class. This is why I'd like to know if there's a way of checking instructors backgrounds in clubs, to insure they know what they're teaching.

I'm in NO WAY saying that just because someone didn't train under Bruce Lee or one of his direct pupils that what they're doing is in anyway wrong, but I can't help but feel that if JKD keeps letting people with no proof of qualification teach, hold seminars etc then the art is going to get a very bad reputation in the near future, and that would indeed be a very sad thing.

[IFAJKD]

Always land mines to steer clear of huh.
The point of Bruce not paying much attention to seinority isn't quite true. First Bruce valued tradition very much and even told Dan that regardles of his level of skill he needed to remember that Taky was still his seinor. This being the case Taky still holds a higher rank than Dan not because of skill, but seinority. Next: Bruce closed his school, not because of any politics regarding infighting but because of people coming in mistaking his methods as the way. He never believed in large classes and in truth believed martial arts could really only be taught privately or semi privately. Most small classes.


For one Bruce Lee himself was never certified in anything. What made him great was what he could do, not because someone gave him a piece of paper. Also just because James Lee never bothered certifying anyone doesn't mean that the guys under him weren't any good. I also think that one of the reasons Bruce closed his school what to try to avoid all of the political infighting. Bruce wasn't about "senority" as much as he was about "ability".

JKD is much more than intercepts as well. I know of only one Instructor certifying others after one seminar and this should be put into perspective. He does not certify them to teach anything but what they got in the seminar and they have no right to pass themselves off as an Instructor. Just the ability to teach that which they were given. This because as a seminar Instructor he knows that in teaching it forces the student to understand what they are doing in more depth. In short they get better faster. The problem is that their certificate does say "Apprentice Instructor" It admittingly is misleading. I do believe that seminars are not a way to teach but to expose someone to an art.

JUST MY OPINION>>>>>:soapbox: I don't believe anyone not certified by someone legitimately...ie. (Bruce himself, Dan, James, or Taky) can say they are able to teach JKD. Sorry but this attitude is part of the problem. There are more than enough JKD people out there to accomplish this through. Yes some are not as good as others but this is the real world in every system or style. If you don't have this certification, STOP stating that you are teaching JKD. What you are teaching is martial arts and maybe even your own style but NOT JKD. Bruce never said he taught anything that he wasn't certified in because he DID respect and believe in tradition. He also said that
"people believe more in what they copy or duplicate than that which they create"
Dan is still the ONLY person certified to teach in all three arts Bruce taught in his lifetime. All his own creation. None stating something that wasn't.
As far as Dan's students starting theirwon orginizations, yeah they still trace back to Dan and Bruce.
You have to keep in mind that most people refer to Dan because of obvious reasons. He has been the most productive, active and credible. His skill speaks for itself and yes so do his Full Instructors. Name one Full Instructor that can't.
I agree that it is about doing and not about saying or paper. To that end this whole idea of "apprentice Instructors after one seminar is a joke and I have said as much to him as well. There, to his credit is more to it but it does mislead the general public. I do think that is a lapse in appropriateness but it doen't give someone the right to say because of that persons inability I can say I teach JKD and it's legitimate.
I have to walk careful here because there are people out there who have been very public who should not be teaching and do not have the right to say they are teaching JKD. They may teach MA and "want" to teach JKD but they can't. At least they can't legitimately. These people are part of the problem and not the solutioin. Because of their dedication, effort and time they may feel as if they are justified and/or can't turn back now. This just clouds truth.
The reality is that we train more hours and years in the study of how to harm someone, beat someone and defend our selves and our families than most surgeons, and lawyers do. You would rarely find someoen claiming to be a lawyer or doctor even though they may have studied hard and for years, if they did get to the bottom line. That "legitimate" credential from the right authority. Why do we treat our profession with less diginity then they do. We work harder and if we are smart we do this with the right people.

[jmdrake]

Hello IFAJKD,

I think we will have to agree to disagree. With regards to Bruce and seniority, one of the things that got him into trouble with some of his WC brothers back in Hong Kong was that he only respected the seniority of those that were actually better than him. Also while he might have certified Sifu Inosanto, at some point he simply quit giving certificates period. That doesn't mean that he didn't feel that there were others who weren't worthy. He felt that in some ways Daniel Lee to help Daniel Inosanto.

http://www.geocities.com/Dragon_lair2000/danbruce.html

He also closed all of his schools to avoid much of the lineage nonsense that we see in other arts. Now as for the person that certifies people to teach after one seminar, and they are certified to "teach what they've learned" we may be talking about the same guy. But when he lists them as "assistant instructors" on his website he doesn't say "assistant instructors to teach stuff taught at the seminar in Kalamazoo on July 8th 1999". So if you'd rather learn JKD from such and assistant instructor than you would learn from Bob Bremer or Howard Williams or Pete Jacobs or Jerry Poteet then that's your business. It doesn't make sense to me, but it doesn't have to in order to be right for you.

I also agree that there are more principles to JKD than just interception, but that is the key principle. However I've seen some well known JKD people abandon many of these principles in order to add stuff that doesn't fit the JKD core IMHO. I mentioned interception because I was trying to be generous. :) I think that's one part of JKD that we all agree on. Other things like power side forward, simultaneous attack and defense, immovable elbow ect may be negotiable though they are a part of my JKD. But I don't want to come out and say "You're not doing JKD if you don't do all of that." I used to, but I'm trying hard to mellow out in my old age.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[IFAJKD]

John I hear the mellow part but it seems as I age more and more I get worse at it. Please keep in mind I am trying to be careful with what I say but still address what I believe to be key things.

With regards to Bruce and seniority, one of the things that got him into trouble with some of his WC brothers back in Hong Kong was that he only respected the seniority of those that were actually better than him. Also while he might have certified Sifu Inosanto, at some point he simply quit giving certificates period.

Actually I have to go with the fact that Dan was there and the level of friendship they had, in my opinion makes him quite the authority. ...Yes, He was traditional in many ways one of which was the issue of senority. Dan has spoken at length about this and much has been written.
You also say "While he might have certified Dan Inosanto" He DID certify him and he did so like he had with with no other person. While he did close his schools down he did for everyone but Dan. Dan Inosanto was allowed to continue teaching. What is not read at that site is what Dan and Bruce later would talk about. As for Dan Lee helping Dan Inosanto, I am not sure that is a fact or someone trying to pull wool over your eyes to support their claims. In looking at those transcripts, It's impossible to isolate that conversation and draw those conclusions. I wouldn't read it and assume that he was saying Dan needed any help or that Dan Lee was better in any sense. I did notice that Joe Lewis was featured in that site and This is where I get irate. Joe had maybe a handful of lessons and yes it is verified. I spoke with John Little who confirmed it from Bruce's own notes. Things that have not even been printed. Joe was nothing to Bruce and didn't train &^*%. with him. Now he is ceritifying people in JKD. There is a joke.

Bob Bremer or Howard Williams or Pete Jacobs or Jerry Poteet then that's your business. It doesn't make sense to me, but it doesn't have to in order to be right for you.
Bob, Jerry and Howard are people who could teach a wonderful experience in what it was like with Bruce at that time. to a point. But to have them teach JKD. No chance. Jerry got locked out of the school half the time because he was late. The others, well they really accomplished nothing even close to Instructorship with Bruce.
That being said, No I wouldn't train with an Apprentice Instructor either. Some may however and gain some rewards from it.
So many people cry they want some order to JKD and some recognition to it but the reality is that if that could happen (and I think it would be impossible) there would be many left behind as "not certified" LD may be one. I am not sure of his training. Howard, Bob and Jerry would certainly be others unless Taky certifed them already.
This is a heated issue isn't it. John I really do look forward to your answers. They are thought provoking

[jmdrake]

Hello IFAJKD,

First let me address the statement about "pulling wool over my eyes." That's simply nonsense! I read the conversation myself and drew my own conclusions. If you draw different conclusions that's fine. The part where Bruce was asking Daniel Lee to help Dan Inosanto was in being more selective with students. Bruce also discussed with Daniel Lee problems with Dan Inosanto's side kick. Also your assertion that Dan was the only one allowed to continue teaching in private is not true. And while Bruce did certify Dan (I no way implied that this was up for debate and wonder why you seem to think that) I think Bruce may have regretted doing this. Not so much regretting certifying Dan as regretting certifying anyone. After all at one point he said that he wished he hadn't named JKD, although that was unavoidable. Another important thing to remember is that Bruce Lee said "if people say that JKD is this or that then let the name go away." Concepts people are always berating original JKD people for insisting that JKD is defined by what Bruce taught when he was alive. Fine. We (or at least I) will try to be less dogmatic. But I think an even worse definition of JKD is the certification/lineage one. To say that someone who went to one JKD seminar and got an "assistant instructor's" certificate is more qualified to teach JKD than someone who actually spent years training with Bruce Lee is insane. Like it or not, such people get listed as "assistant instructors" in certain JKD organizations.

In truth, this whole thread boils down to one question. How can someone like "White Dragon" know that he's actually getting his money's worth when going to a JKD school? His own criteria for saying the last school he tried wasn't simply "Sifu so-and-so didn't have a certificate that could be traced back to Dan Inosanto" but rather "Sifu so-and-so didn't know what he was doing and neither did his students." The people that I mentioned that you discount can give someone their money's worth in JKD, whether you wish to acknowlege that or not. Some (though not all) of the instructors that fit your criteria of "tracing lineage back to Dan" clearly cannot give someone their money's worth in JKD instruction if their lives depended on it.

Regards,

John M. Drake


Originally posted by IFAJKD

John I hear the mellow part but it seems as I age more and more I get worse at it. Please keep in mind I am trying to be careful with what I say but still address what I believe to be key things.

Bob, Jerry and Howard are people who could teach a wonderful experience in what it was like with Bruce at that time. to a point. But to have them teach JKD. No chance. Jerry got locked out of the school half the time because he was late. The others, well they really accomplished nothing even close to Instructorship with Bruce.
That being said, No I wouldn't train with an Apprentice Instructor either. Some may however and gain some rewards from it.
So many people cry they want some order to JKD and some recognition to it but the reality is that if that could happen (and I think it would be impossible) there would be many left behind as "not certified" LD may be one. I am not sure of his training. Howard, Bob and Jerry would certainly be others unless Taky certifed them already.
This is a heated issue isn't it. John I really do look forward to your answers. They are thought provoking

[arnisador]

Originally posted by jmdrake

immovable elbow

What's this?

[IFAJKD]

Mr. Drake: First I have to say that it's too bad that this is so one demensional. No facial expression or voice influx. Much communication is gone. I don't mean in any sense that you haven't thought for yourself.
You need to know that I really do enjoy this. I don't mean to hammer your skills. That being said, I have to coninue. I thought I was clear in your quote that by saying "might have" in regards to certifying Dan makes me question things from you a bit. Sorry to say but it is true that Dan was THE ONLY one allowed to teach after Bruce decided to close his schools. Linda will confirm this as will John Little, Dan Inosanto and Taky Kimura. The others you mention, to me have no weight but simply stories to tell in a seminar. Do they have anything to teach ? Stories.
On the issue of lineage, I agree that it is frightening to see some people out there teaching JKD after a seminar. Dan's students however that are listed as Full Instructors are not in this class. Again name one that cannot teach. Just one.
You also mention that these other yahoos spent years training with Bruce. Again, you have to put that into perspective. Bruce taught very few of those classes. Very few. People like Beasly, Lewis, and others in that camp are dangerous people when it comes to teaching others. They are imposters in the JKD world and an insult to those who have sought out cerdible instruction and labored to learn.
In truth, I could care less about OJKD vs JKDC battle. My loyality is to Dan Inosanto and his life's work and what he has done for all of us to be able to have these disscussions. Bruce was clear why he picked Dan to still teach, clear why Dan helped in the development of JKD, clear why he certified Dan in all three arts and No I don't think your assumption that he regretted it is accurate at all. If so he regretted it three seperate times. Brandon was clear with why he supported Dan in taking the mantel of JKD and at one time so was Linda.
I don't know how White Dragon can be sure of what he's getting. Doof us when we train with anyone in anything ? I do know that all the bitching over a governing body is one thing but the main problem is clean up. Cleaning up all those certified by ANYONE not certified by Dan, Taky or Bruce himself. Today that leaves Dan and Taky. From there you clear up all those seminar babies who have gotten paper from the seminars stating they can teach.
I am sorry if this insults you. I really mean no disrespect. You may be great at what you do but if not from these few sources( Dan or Taky) at some point, it is not JKD (certified) or authentic. It is your style that you and who ever taught you are proclaiming to teach and you drew from your exposure to JKD to create it. You become like a John Little maybe, and authority of sorts but that is different. I don't understand how this can even be argued. If someone teaching wasn't certified by someone given permission to do so then they are NOT CERTIFIED TO TEACH. This remains true even if it means you have to reframe how you look at the training you just spent years doing.
People operate to maintain homeostasis and it is rare to find those willing to see the truth if it may mean something for them has to change. What is the problem with finding someone certified to teach and credential you. Get that which you don't have. Bruce didn't understand that today if you want to teach, you need credentials. If not then have the courage to take what you have and teach "martial arts" without shame and with pride at your creation.

[jmdrake]

To IFAJKD,

Frankly I could care less if you think I teach JKD, I do. JKD isn't based on who Bruce certified. It's based on what Bruce did. You're whole argument is based on politics and frankly I could care less for any of it. I don't think you realize just how much I don't give a rats tail. This is the type of BS that Bruce was trying to avoid when he closed his schools. Obviously he failed. Also I don't know why you bring up Jerry Beasley. Beasley doesn't know what he's talking about. But then neither do some of the people certified by Dan. Remember when in a previous thread how I said some concepts people said goofy things like "Bruce didn't know about Thai Boxing"? Well I got that from a Burton Richardson article! So who is the "yahoo"? And if Linda Lee says that Dan was the only one who was allowed to teach privately then she is wrong. There were others such as Jesse Glover who got permission from Bruce to teach the things they learned from Bruce. Jesse called what him did "non classical Gung Fu" (similair to Dan calling the JKD core "Jun Fan Gung Fu" these days.) But for you to call him, Howard Williams and others "yahoos" shows that you are the one with the wool pulled over your eyes. Bruce Lee said "if people say that JKD is this or that then let the name itself go away." The name is just so that people can have a common language to share ideas about Bruce Lee's art. Instead the current sham is to move as far away from his art as possible while "preserving" a certificate. Whatever.

Regards,

John M. Drake

P.S. I could attend a seminar, get my "automatic apprentice instructorship" certificate and be listed at a certain website as an instructor. Would that make me ANY better? I doubt it!


Originally posted by IFAJKD

Mr. Drake: First I have to say that it's too bad that this is so one demensional. No facial expression or voice influx. Much communication is gone. I don't mean in any sense that you haven't thought for yourself.
You need to know that I really do enjoy this. I don't mean to hammer your skills. That being said, I have to coninue. I thought I was clear in your quote that by saying "might have" in regards to certifying Dan makes me question things from you a bit. Sorry to say but it is true that Dan was THE ONLY one allowed to teach after Bruce decided to close his schools. Linda will confirm this as will John Little, Dan Inosanto and Taky Kimura. The others you mention, to me have no weight but simply stories to tell in a seminar. Do they have anything to teach ? Stories.
On the issue of lineage, I agree that it is frightening to see some people out there teaching JKD after a seminar. Dan's students however that are listed as Full Instructors are not in this class. Again name one that cannot teach. Just one.
You also mention that these other yahoos spent years training with Bruce. Again, you have to put that into perspective. Bruce taught very few of those classes. Very few. People like Beasly, Lewis, and others in that camp are dangerous people when it comes to teaching others. They are imposters in the JKD world and an insult to those who have sought out cerdible instruction and labored to learn.
In truth, I could care less about OJKD vs JKDC battle. My loyality is to Dan Inosanto and his life's work and what he has done for all of us to be able to have these disscussions. Bruce was clear why he picked Dan to still teach, clear why Dan helped in the development of JKD, clear why he certified Dan in all three arts and No I don't think your assumption that he regretted it is accurate at all. If so he regretted it three seperate times. Brandon was clear with why he supported Dan in taking the mantel of JKD and at one time so was Linda.
I don't know how White Dragon can be sure of what he's getting. Doof us when we train with anyone in anything ? I do know that all the bitching over a governing body is one thing but the main problem is clean up. Cleaning up all those certified by ANYONE not certified by Dan, Taky or Bruce himself. Today that leaves Dan and Taky. From there you clear up all those seminar babies who have gotten paper from the seminars stating they can teach.
I am sorry if this insults you. I really mean no disrespect. You may be great at what you do but if not from these few sources( Dan or Taky) at some point, it is not JKD (certified) or authentic. It is your style that you and who ever taught you are proclaiming to teach and you drew from your exposure to JKD to create it. You become like a John Little maybe, and authority of sorts but that is different. I don't understand how this can even be argued. If someone teaching wasn't certified by someone given permission to do so then they are NOT CERTIFIED TO TEACH. This remains true even if it means you have to reframe how you look at the training you just spent years doing.
People operate to maintain homeostasis and it is rare to find those willing to see the truth if it may mean something for them has to change. What is the problem with finding someone certified to teach and credential you. Get that which you don't have. Bruce didn't understand that today if you want to teach, you need credentials. If not then have the courage to take what you have and teach "martial arts" without shame and with pride at your creation.

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by arnisador



What's this?

This is a principle that Bruce Lee got from Wing Chun. A WC could probably explain it better. The basic idea is that in the bai jong the elbow leads the body by about a fists distance. If an opponent can push your elbow in further than that then he can disrupt your structure. To prevent that one might use footwork to maintain structure or "running had" to flow around an opponents defense.

[Ron Prather]

"P.S. I could attend a seminar, get my "automatic apprentice instructorship" certificate and be listed at a certain website as an instructor. Would that make me ANY better? I doubt it!"

==I'm confused John. Are you dissing your own friend and instructor, Lamar Davis????

[arnisador]

Originally posted by jmdrake

The basic idea is that in the bai jong the elbow leads the body by about a fists distance. If an opponent can push your elbow in further than that then he can disrupt your structure.

By coincidence, we did something very similar to this in class today out of hubbud but a name wasn't put to this particular idea. Thanks!

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by Ron Prather

"P.S. I could attend a seminar, get my "automatic apprentice instructorship" certificate and be listed at a certain website as an instructor. Would that make me ANY better? I doubt it!"

==I'm confused John. Are you dissing your own friend and instructor, Lamar Davis????

No Ron. Not even close!

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by arnisador



By coincidence, we did something very similar to this in class today out of hubbud but a name wasn't put to this particular idea. Thanks!

Hello arnisador,

Cool insight! One of the things I like about JKD is the ability to look at martial arts ideas from different perspectives. For example you can look at the "stop hit" from the Wing Chun or the fencing angle.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[IFAJKD]

John: A few things and I will let it go. First Arnisador I am not being disrespectful but I do want this post to stand. This is the JKD area of this site and as such some things have to be addressed. Back to JOhn:

John it's people like you atat are the problem in JKD. You read something and can't see past a line. You assume conclusions drom statements and always in a way to support the fact that you are a fraud. Burton is incredibly qualified and although I am not sure why he said what he said, I can't say I trust your interpretation. Funny how you have attacked the following people, (I am sure you will contest this in your response)
Linda Lee
John Little
Paul Vunak
Burton Richardson
Dan Inosanto

Obviously these people don't know what they are talking about.
You attack Dan in a very subtle way but you attack him just the same.

Fact: Dan and Taky alone has the right to certify people in JKD. There is even some discussion that Taky was actually certified in Jun Fan and never in JKD. Not sure on that one as Dan is too humble to make it an issue.

Fact: As much as you may take issue, Dan was the ONLY ONE allowed to teach after Bruce closed his schools. They closed in Dec of 69 and in Jan of 70 Dan opened his backyard up to those few students training at the time. Do you know who his students were. Dan Lee was one of Dan Inosanto's students ande had been since 1965. Dan as in L.A. Chinatown school taught 95 % of the classes and Bruce taught the rest.

Fact when Bruce changed to JKD from Jun Fan in 1966 more than the name changed.

Fact: Bruce honored titles of respect and told many of it. It was classical training that he despised not formality. He also vauled credentials.

Fact: Larmar Davis is certified by no one authorized to do so and as such neither are you. Lamar is a joke. You are simply "trying" to find facts to support your position of having no legitimate qualifications to teach anything related to JKD.

Don't confuse the issue by hiding behind paper credentials or Bruce hated this or thaause fankly you are so messed up about all that and you will also teach BS stories and lame opinions to people coming to this site for factual info.
Also don't muddy the water with OJKD vs JKDC crap. The OJKD people are legit as anyone JKDC. Providing they come from Taky or Dan. If they come from Dan they are JKD and JKD alone. There is no line between.

Now I know you don't care what I think but this is exactly the problem with people like you. You don't care. You just go out and teach and certify when you have no right to do so. Why don't you pursue a job as a surgeon. I'm sure you've watched enough of the Learning Channel.
Give me a break. You and Lamar and the rest of your BS group are frauds and jokes who have been brained washed to the point that you can justify anything.

Arnisador: Again I ask that you leave this post hereas this guy is a joke and people coming here to see and learn will be infected with some serious garbage. Sorry. I have tried to be respectful but this has got to stop. We need legitmate people not this.

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by IFAJKD

[B]John: A few things and I will let it go. First Arnisador I am not being disrespectful but I do want this post to stand. This is the JKD area of this site and as such some things have to be addressed. Back to JOhn:

John it's people like you atat are the problem in JKD.

Hello IFAJKD,

First of all I stopped reading your silly post at this point. You need to step back and look at yourself in the mirror bro. All I've done is expressed my opinion (backed up with fact) and you've done nothing but attack me for doing that! Like I said in a seperate thread, it is YOUR type of attitude that causes ALL of the problems in JKD! The problem isn't Dan Inosanto. The problem isn't people who train DIRECTLY under Dan. The problem is from SOME people like yourself who train under people who trained under people who trained under Dan. You may have good intentions, but this whole "undying loyalty" thing is a bit cultish.

You seem to be incapable of even "agreeing to disagree". I'm happy to allow JKDC people to call what they do "JKD" even if it doesn't fit my own definition. I expect the same level of respect from the other side. Now let's talk about what we AGREE on! You think my certificate is not "authentic". I think yours is not worth the paper it's printed on. You think some of the people that I respect are "Yahoos" because they aren't certified by Dan or Bruce. I think some of the people you respect are "Yahoos" because they write things that don't make sense. We both have distain for Jerry Beasley, though I have respect for Joe Lewis. When Bruce Lee was alive he was VERY PROUD to have Joe Lewis as a student! As for the rumours of who claimed to spar/not spar with who, I don't care. People get quoted out of context. (Naw). Once Taky Kimura and another Bruce Lee student approached a well know Judoka and asked "There is a rumour going around that you beat our Sifu. Is this true?" The Judoka replied "this is the first I've heard of it."

Now that we've established that our mutual disrespect for each other as martial artists, is there any chance to getting back to discussing JKD? Or do you have to have a certificate that can be traced back to Dan Inosanto in order to do that here?

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Bob Hubbard]

Guys, I realize that this discussion has a lot of personal meaning to you both, but the heat factors getting a bit high.

Can you please agree to disagree, and take the areas you have issues with to PM?

I've been asked to step in here -before- things get so hot we have to play heavy, ya know?

Tis greatly appreciated.


Kaith
-MT Admin-

[IFAJKD]

Kaith:
I have always respected your requests in MT. com . I ask that you let this ride for several reasons. First:

1) people turn to many of us for direction to what is authentic and worth training in and what's not. In fact it was the nature of this thread was it not. To give these people a chance to train in the best systems they can they should know some of the crap that is being passed off as "real JKD"

2) If you look at my profile you will see that living in Minnesota it was no easy task to train with legitimate people. I struggled with this for over 20 years. I trained and studied my $%^ off and all to get as good as I could and have legitimate Instruction. In this sense it took me 28 years of martial arts training to get to this level of Instructorship. I am not a seminar student. I have and do train directly with Dan and Paul and have worked hard to give them the respect they deserve as pioneers by being as good as I could at doing and teaching.

3) I don't agree with seminar Instructors and caution everyone against them. I differentiate between those people and the Instructors like myself who have worked hard to get there.

4) Drake is attempting to muddy the waters by claiming this as an OJKD vs JKDC debate. It isn't. I respect and encourage OJKD and train it myself as well as JKDC (as if there is a difference) Drake is NOT OJKD. He is simply another problem. One that serves to mislead many others. I believe it's our responsibility to expose this kind of thing whenever we can. This reminds me of the Chung Mu Kwon scam. We exposed it and many people who read it left the post with a better understanding. Maybe even avoided a scam themselves.

5) My Instructorship and lineage couldn't get anymore legit. My skill has always spoke for itself and Drakes certificate is as legit as Beasly's. He's a "wanna be" and he will influence others because he has the *&^^% to go out there and claim to legitimately teach JKD.
Chtu, who to the best of my knowledge has never trained in JKD but has studied it extensively does not claim to be an Instructor of JKD yet he understands it better than John ever will. Better than many actually ever will. I have said my piece and will let it rest but...yes, I do take it seriously and I guess I fight for what I think. Maybe too much huh. I also don't want to see others mislead by people like this.

[Bob Hubbard]

To everyone : Polite debate, and factual info are welcome. Personal attacks, and character assassination are not. I'll let this one stay open for now, but keep it civil, please.


:asian:



(edited to clarify) - Kaith

[jmdrake]

Everything that I've said
has been backed up by verifiable facts. Especially
what I said about Jesse Glover. He went to Bruce
and asked for permission to teach. Bruce told him
he could teach what he learned but he couldn't
call it JKD because JKD represented changes Bruce
made after Seattle. I don't know why you find that
fact so threatening, but its a fact. Also Dan
was not given permission to keep open a public
school, only a private "backyard" school. You
seem to think that's the same think. I don't.
But you are entititled to your opinion.

Now let me tell you something else. You think you
know me, but you don't know JACK about me! I'm
not even TRYING to make money off of JKD so your
assinine comment about "brain surgery" or whatever
is really stupid. And for me it's not just about
Lamar. You called many other people that I have
a lot of respect for and YOU SHOULD have a lot of
respect for "Yahoos". People like Jesse Glover,
Howard Williams, Bob Bremer ect. That has NOTHING
to do with Lamar Davis because he isn't certified
under any of them. But they are good martial
artists and good people. You think Chtu knows
more about JKD then me? Based off of what?
Because he agrees with your version of the
straight blast (that to my knowlege Bruce never
used)? He does seem more knowlegeable than you
though, since you claim to have never even HEARD
of the "handball court" fight and he HAD. You
claimed that was another "BS" story. Chtu may
know more than me, I don't know. I'm here to
exchange ideas, not get caught up in political
foolishness.

Now, while you might not agree with "seminar
instructors" you belong to an organization that
encourages them. And that was my only point.
It's not an attempt to "muddy the waters" as
you falsely claim. It's simply a point that a
cert is no guarantee of knowlege or ability.
There are people who aren't certed such as
Jesse that know much more about Bruce's
art than some who are. They aren't "Yahoos".

Regards,

John M. Drake

P.S. To the moderator, I don't see how this can be anything
but personal attacks since that's all that Jim is interested in.
From the start I've been happy to say "I agree to disagree".
But I don't appreciate being essentially called a liar especially
when all I'm doing is giving my opinion based on verifiable
facts.


Originally posted by IFAJKD

Kaith:
I have always respected your requests in MT. com . I ask that you let this ride for several reasons. First:

1) people turn to many of us for direction to what is authentic and worth training in and what's not. In fact it was the nature of this thread was it not. To give these people a chance to train in the best systems they can they should know some of the crap that is being passed off as "real JKD"

2) If you look at my profile you will see that living in Minnesota it was no easy task to train with legitimate people. I struggled with this for over 20 years. I trained and studied my $%^ off and all to get as good as I could and have legitimate Instruction. In this sense it took me 28 years of martial arts training to get to this level of Instructorship. I am not a seminar student. I have and do train directly with Dan and Paul and have worked hard to give them the respect they deserve as pioneers by being as good as I could at doing and teaching.

3) I don't agree with seminar Instructors and caution everyone against them. I differentiate between those people and the Instructors like myself who have worked hard to get there.

4) Drake is attempting to muddy the waters by claiming this as an OJKD vs JKDC debate. It isn't. I respect and encourage OJKD and train it myself as well as JKDC (as if there is a difference) Drake is NOT OJKD. He is simply another problem. One that serves to mislead many others. I believe it's our responsibility to expose this kind of thing whenever we can. This reminds me of the Chung Mu Kwon scam. We exposed it and many people who read it left the post with a better understanding. Maybe even avoided a scam themselves.

5) My Instructorship and lineage couldn't get anymore legit. My skill has always spoke for itself and Drakes certificate is as legit as Beasly's. He's a "wanna be" and he will influence others because he has the *&^^% to go out there and claim to legitimately teach JKD.
Chtu, who to the best of my knowledge has never trained in JKD but has studied it extensively does not claim to be an Instructor of JKD yet he understands it better than John ever will. Better than many actually ever will. I have said my piece and will let it rest but...yes, I do take it seriously and I guess I fight for what I think. Maybe too much huh. I also don't want to see others mislead by people like this.

[IFAJKD]

1) You have no idea about my version of the blast

2) Bruce Lee used the blast constantly

3) most of your "facts" are not verifiable

4) I don't give people respect because the trained with Bruce Lee. It would be for many other reasons. I don't disrespect these people nor do I mean any disrespect for you as a martial artist

5) Never stated you are trying to make $ off JKD. If I did I
apologize. Just stop teaching something you were not certified to teach. It's misrepresentation.

6) For the record John, I don't believe you are a liar. I think you have been left with an opinion and impression based strongly on those trying to reinforce their own lack of qualified credentials. To do so they have to attack those who are legit.

In the end there is no argument. It is too simple and too clear to anyone who may be reading as to who is really qualified. and where to look for qualified Instructors. The original reason for this thread.
Thanks Kaith and the rest for patiently waiting this one out.

[arnisador]

This thread is now locked.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-