Drawing the bow: Pull vs. Push

[Flying Crane]

I've been interested in archery since I was a kid, shooting my dad's fiberglass bow in the back yard. I never had any formal instruction to speak of, I just picked up the bow and figured it out and went from there.

As an adult I developed an interest in different types of bows, and managed to acquire a few of different poundages. Now I have four bows:

My dad's old fiberglass straight bow, pulls around 55-60 at 28 inches
a short little Hungarian recurve horse bow, pulls around 65-70 at 28 inches
a longer wood recurve, pulls around 75-80 at 28 inches.
a longer Hungarian recurve, pulls at 110, at 30 inches.

My draw technique, without getting into the minor details, was essentially this: I hold the bow in the left hand with the left arm extended to the side, reach across with the right hand to grasp the string, and pull to full draw. The work is being done primarily with the right arm and shoulder and upper back, in the pulling effort, with some turning of the torso.

As I acquired the stronger bows, especially the top two, I began to notice problems. My old draw technique seemed to work pretty well with the two lighter bows, but I would get problems in my right shoulder when I would try to shoot the two heavier bows. I have an old shoulder injury in the right shoulder, and it seems that these two bows were too strong and would often re-aggravate the injury.

I remember hearing about the Asian methods of drawing the heavy bows, seeing descriptions of pushing the bow out instead of pulling the string back. I could never quite figure out what they meant, and in the past, with the lighter bows, it didn't seem to matter.

I think I finally figured it out, as I was contemplating whether or not I might not be able to use the stronger bows. I've been experimenting with a different technique, working on the lighter bows to develop the method before I try it on the heavier bows. Here's what I do:

I take the bow in left hand, and string in right, and basically raise it up to touch my chin with my right thumb knuckle. From there I push the bow out, which accomplishes most of the draw. I do pull with the right as well, but most of the pull is done by turning the torso away from the bow. There is a small amount of pulling with the right arm, but it is drastically reduced from my old method. The biggest improvement seems to be that I no longer make that long reach across with the right hand and the majority of the work is no longer being done with the right arm and shoulder. That seems to reduce the stress on the right shoulder tremendously, and I believe will enable me to pursue the heavier bows more effectively, with a drastic reduction in the potential for injury to my shoulder.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear some feedback, comments, tips, etc.

[Touch Of Death]

Someone just flat out told me, once, that that is how it is supposed to be done. I don't claim any other knowledge.:ultracool
Sean

[Flying Crane]

Someone just flat out told me, once, that that is how it is supposed to be done. I don't claim any other knowledge.:ultracool
Sean

Yeah, I think it's crucial when dealing with heavy bows. My local bowshop guy had expressed his concern when I purchased the heavy bows, that he felt I was taking a real risk of shoulder injury. I've only seen mention of the push technique, but never had anyone give me a proper demonstration so I just couldn't get my head wrapped around it. I guess the necessity grown out of injury makes one take a second look at things and the pieces can fall into place.

[Sukerkin]

From your description, FC, that sounds like a classic English longbow draw - push the bow away and 'stand' within the arc of the bow as the release executes.

With the 'big boy' bows, you don't draw and aim, you aim and draw :D. It's one reason why training a longbowman takes so long - he has to be able to judge where his arrow will fall before that fraction of a second occurs between extension and release.

Of course, I cannot speak from personal experience of bow use {swords and rifles, aye, bows, no (other than when about five years old)} but this is what I have read, heard and watched.

[Sukerkin]

This chap is using a rather weak draw-weight bow but it's a nice illustration of how you shoot a bow that is under your 'league':

YtTyOf8OCKg

By the way, I disagree with his asserton that it is a 'simple' weapon - it is a classic sophisticated use of available materials to obtain a goal.

[Sukerkin]

Another interesting one but, again, people are using bows too light in draw-weight for them. The limit was always supposed to be that you could not hold the bow in extension - push and release ... and hit the Frenchie :lol:

z_rPxV5Jivg

[Sukerkin]

And a typically enthusiatic offering from one of my favourite TV military historians:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3941855816597088208#

[Flying Crane]

Good comments, Suk, I'm at work and the videos are blocked but I'll check them out when I get home.

Interesting comment: the strength of the bow should be such that you can draw but not hold it. If you can hold it then it's not strong enough for you, as a military weapon.

[Flying Crane]

This chap is using a rather weak draw-weight bow but it's a nice illustration of how you shoot a bow that is under your 'league':

YtTyOf8OCKg

By the way, I disagree with his asserton that it is a 'simple' weapon - it is a classic sophisticated use of available materials to obtain a goal.

In this clip, most of his draws were obscured by the wrong camera angle. There were one or two draws that I saw, and they looked to me like there was more pulling that pushing going on. Weaker bow, easier to "pull" the draw.

[Flying Crane]

Another interesting one but, again, people are using bows too light in draw-weight for them. The limit was always supposed to be that you could not hold the bow in extension - push and release ... and hit the Frenchie :lol:

z_rPxV5Jivg

Here too. Maybe it's just because it's a new technique to me and my eye isn't trained to recognize it, but from what I can see in this clip it looks like more pulling than pushing again.

From what I can tell, it looks like the left arm raises with the bow in hand, almost fully extended already. The right hand pulls back and looks to me like it is doing most of the work. This looks most similar to my original technique, what has contributed to my shoulder problem.

[Sukerkin]

Aye, as noted, they are using bows with too light a draw-weight for them, so they are tending to pull on the string rather than push on the bow. It should be a bit like an isometric excercise, pushing with one hand and pulling with the other - but the power should come from the muscles across the back rather than the arms.

[Bruno@MT]

Good comments, Suk, I'm at work and the videos are blocked but I'll check them out when I get home.

Interesting comment: the strength of the bow should be such that you can draw but not hold it. If you can hold it then it's not strong enough for you, as a military weapon.

I've done wooden barebow archery for a couple of years, and was interested in English longbow. I' didn't shoot one, but did some research. A couple of things about English longbow.

It was typically use in warfare in large groups, as a weapon of mass destruction. If you're standing shouler to shoulder with 100 archers, it doesn't really matter if you can pinpoint an individual target long distance or not. As long as all of you can more or less hit near the target (another group of people), it means that a hail of hundreds of arrows is descending on said target. This is still practiced in 'clout shooting' in todays competition. A good archer could fire 12 arrows in a minute. With a 100 archers, you could make a literal cloud of arrows descend on your enemy. Imagine that coming at you. I guess it does lower the morale somewhat :)

Because of that, range was much more important than accuracy. And you'll never be able to hold steady a bow that is at the limit of what you can draw. Fruthermore, it would make the muscles start to cramp and produce lactic acid, which is not good.

Daily training started at a young age, with progressively stronger bows at you got older. The bows that were used by an adult archer are something that I wouldn't be able to draw even remotely to full draw. My bow drew at 50 pounds full draw. That is something an English child would have used. IIRC At one point it was even the law that young adults had to practice daily.

A second and more pragmatic reason for not aiming at full draw is that the wood can't handle that. English bows were traditionally made from yew, which has the natural property to have different composition from bark to core. One part os very resistant to compression, and the other is very elastic. The resistant side is turned to the inside of the bow which gets compressed. The elastic side is the outside (the side that points towards the target). Thus you get a maximum amount of power generation.

There is a catch though. Yew, when used like this, has a tendency to form permanent compression zones on the inside (like foam that doesn't come all the way back ofter compression) if static pressure is applied. the only way to keep this from happening is to increased the draw gradually and realease immediately at full draw so that the wood doesn't have the time to settle.

EDIT:
as for drawing: you start with the bow high, the right arm with the arrow, bent, and the left arm straight. To draw you bring the right hand to the corner of your mouth or a different anchor point, and the left arm moves down. Important is NOT to pull with the arms, because your arms will sour quickly. By drawing like I described, you draw using the delta muscles, which are much stronger.
I admit that my description is not very good. Drawing is a process with many details to get right, but an imporant aspect is that power is generated from the shoulders and upper back. NOT the arms.

[Flying Crane]

Thanks Bruno, I was familiar with a lot of this but the issue of the yew taking a set in compression was new to me. Interesting thoughts.

Given the fact that I do not have a need to take part in issuance of an arrow storm, I would hope that I can ultimately draw my bows and hold long enough to take aim. Somewhere around 1-2 seconds I think ought to be enough, so if I can hold it that long I think I'd be satisfied. A marked headshot to a zombie when we are on the run is going to be more useful than a one-man arrow-storm that doesn't hit anything...:rofl: If that means my bow at 110# is 15# lighter than it could be, so be it...

[Flying Crane]

Aye, as noted, they are using bows with too light a draw-weight for them, so they are tending to pull on the string rather than push on the bow. It should be a bit like an isometric excercise, pushing with one hand and pulling with the other - but the power should come from the muscles across the back rather than the arms.


yeah, and the other critical factor is reducing the amount or reach-across with the right arm. That tight angle in the shoulder caused by the reach across really wreaks havoc in the shoulder joint, as has become all too clear to me.

[Bruno@MT]

If that means my bow at 110# is 15# lighter than it could be, so be it...

15 lbs? :D
Full draw could be as high as 180 pounds for professional adults.

[Flying Crane]

15 lbs? :D
Full draw could be as high as 180 pounds for professional adults.

Oh I know, I'm a slacker. But hey, just getting over that 100# mark is a real feat by today's standards. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Bruno@MT]

True enough. I found 60 to be a lot already.

[Flying Crane]

What I've really found to be interesting is just how taxing archery can be. It seems like, hey, ya just stand around and shoot arrows, not much athleticism going on there. But the truth is, it's a workout.

I actually use my bows as part of my strength training. I routinely pull out my bows and draw them, even when I can't make it to the range to shoot (of course I do not draw and release empty, I just draw and then ease off).

I draw both right and left handed to develop the strength equally. Doing this is critical when you are working with heavier bows. If you don't use it, you will lose it. I work thru several rounds of drawing, starting with the lighter bows and working up to the heavier ones. And when I'm done, I gotta say, I'm TIRED. If it's in the evening, I'll start falling asleep in front of the TV. Archery can be exhausting.