Poll: For Instructors

[John Bishop]

With discussions on subjects like honesty, intregrity, rank, and such, the discussions have addressed the effect monetary gain has on these things. I was wondering the business status of some of the instructors here. And how they feel about martial arts instruction as a business or vocation.

[A.R.K.]

Good thread!

I am fortunate to be employed full time with my agency and part time Instructing at the local college. I don't have a commercial school, we teach in a vacant bldg that one of my assistants kindly offered for our use. That is mainly for the off-duty folks. We charge very, very little but have managed to accumulate some nice mats, bags and assorted training weapons. I have my assistants to thank for that in a very big way. :)

In addition DAC and I will be teaching in our church starting this Saturday and as of right now will do so two days a week to start. That will be at no charge.

I see no problem with an Instructor having this as primary or only means of income. As long as he/she is providing a genuine service and is concerned with the well being of the student[s]. It is the 'laugh all the way to the bank' that I [and most of us] have a problem with.

I personally teach because I love it and wish to not only pass on what I've been fortunate enough to learn but also my experiences. And I find that the more I teach, the more I learn. In fact I've learned more teaching than by learning if that makes any sense. It's just not in me to make a business out of it.

:asian:

[DAC..florida]

I have a full time job and teach two classes a week for A.R.K. at our 1st location and as mentioned above I also teach at our church, I also take two classes a week!

John,

this is a great idea for a thread, cant wait to see how it turns out!

:asian:

[Damian Mavis]

hmm I don't see an option for my situation... I rent out space at 3 locations (community centres and gyms) and teach martial arts full time. I don't actually have a commercial site.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[jukado1]

I currently work full time as a security officer at a casino and only occessionaly get to teach at all, but see nothing wrong with a martial arts instructor making a decent wage at teaching. and if they are a good business person there is nothing wrong with making an obsene amount of money, AS long as the indivduel student is recieving their moneys worth, for point of refrence when i started training in 1959, my instrucors price's were, 12 one hour classes for =$29.50 or 30 one hour classes for =$59.50 or if you wanted to join the club, with unlimited classes it was $100.00 per year. so i do have a problum with schools that charge $100.00 or more per month only to run the student through like cattle, ( ie. your hour is over, see you next week ) sorry for rambaling on.

[James Kovacich]

I have something similar to share. Back in the ‘70’s my primary instructor only charged $5 a month (for 5 days a week) and the going rate was around $10 a month for 1 day a week, $20 a month for 2 days a week, $30 a month for 3 days a week… He always believed that anyone should be allowed to train that wanted to train. That mentality hit home for me considering that neither my parents nor I ever had much money and many a day I had to walk several miles to and from class.

Well I have in the works, with the help of my current students to start teaching in Fresno, Ca. and the Sacramento area too with San Jose as my base. This will build a strong foundation for my training association that is in its infancy. I have family members around the Bay Area and Gilroy and Watsonville and San Diego that hopefully will prove to productive assets.

So YES, I want to make a decent living from the arts but NO, I will not ever be expensive. My money will be earned without bastardizing myself or the arts!


:asian:

[Shinzu]

i teach once a week on saturdays at my schools. i would like to do more, but at this point i am enjoying it:D

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by akja
Back in the ‘70’s my primary instructor only charged $5 a month (for 5 days a week) and the going rate was around $10 a month for 1 day a week, $20 a month for 2 days a week, $30 a month for 3 days a week…


I just ran these numbers through an inflation calculator. $30 back in 1970 translates to $141.59 in 2002! So really, charging for $100 a month now is a discount to what you paid!

WhiteBirch

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by jukado1
for point of refrence when i started training in 1959, my instrucors price's were, 12 one hour classes for =$29.50 or 30 one hour classes for =$59.50

For the cost before inflation, the 12 one-hour classes were $2.46 per class. After inflation, that's now $14.72 per class. At 12 classes, that's $176.64 today! $100 per month doesn't seem to bad.

You can't figure what you paid to today's prices directly. You *have* to account for inflation. You also have to account for what the public believes is the best price for what you're offering. If you think that what you teach is only worth $30 a month, the public will as well, whether or not it actually is... You have the right to charge a "fair and reasonable" rate for your services.

I know I pay about $150 a month for car insurance. That's throw away unless I get into an accident. Is $150 a month worth it to perhaps save my life, whether through self-defense or priceless exercise worth it?

WhiteBirch

[lvwhitebir]

I own a commercial school and currently have an outside job. I can't wait to have the school be my only employment. I've been working 75 hours a week for the past 3 years to keep it running and pay all my bills. I get up at 5 am and get home at 9:30 pm. I spend an hour of quality time with the wife before I have to hit the sack again.

Believe me, while I love teaching, it's incredibly difficult to do it with an outside job. Teaching full time would be my life's goal.

I have about 70 wonderful students and charge what I consider a reasonable rate for my services (averaging about $70). To pay all my bills and go full time without raising my rates, I would have to have 3x the number of students, which would also give me 3x the headaches I face today... I'd rather have fewer students with a higher rate than the other way around.

WhiteBirch

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
I just ran these numbers through an inflation calculator. $30 back in 1970 translates to $141.59 in 2002! So really, charging for $100 a month now is a discount to what you paid!

WhiteBirch

I paid $5 a month for 5 days a week with my primary instructor Greg Lagera of Fremont, Ca. The numbers you ran were with my Hapkido Instructor O Nam Ku of Fremont, Ca. where I trained because of the location while I was in between Kajukenbo schools.

My basis for showing those numbers was to emphasize the deal it was to only have to pay $5 a month.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
I own a commercial school and currently have an outside job. I can't wait to have the school be my only employment. I've been working 75 hours a week for the past 3 years to keep it running and pay all my bills. I get up at 5 am and get home at 9:30 pm. I spend an hour of quality time with the wife before I have to hit the sack again.

Believe me, while I love teaching, it's incredibly difficult to do it with an outside job. Teaching full time would be my life's goal.

I have about 70 wonderful students and charge what I consider a reasonable rate for my services (averaging about $70). To pay all my bills and go full time without raising my rates, I would have to have 3x the number of students, which would also give me 3x the headaches I face today... I'd rather have fewer students with a higher rate than the other way around.

WhiteBirch

Or maybe less overhead although easier said than done.

:asian:

[Seig]

I have a small school, that some day I would like to see become my primary if not sole source of income. Unfortunately, because I am in a rural area that is somewhat of a D.C. suburb, we have felt the economy hit, badly. I work a full time job, midnights, as well as teach part-time at a local college. If I could get my enrollment to a steady 75 students per month, I could make a living. It seems to me that every time one of my short term goals is in sight, something happens that takes me back to square 2 or 3. On the up side, in the area I am in, in the past 6 or 7 years, 5 schools have come and gone in under a year, and I am now in the third month of my third year. We shall see.....

[RCastillo]

I live in a city of almost 300,000

The last time I had a group to really work with was back last summer. I had 8 people, and through numerous issues, they all faded out.(That was the high point) I taught at the YWCA for almost 3 years. It was a great location, but couldn't draw people in. Plus, the administration rarely supported me, and went through 4 Program Coordinators.(They're still hunting for one since May) I've also heard it many times before, "I don't teach children, and that is my downfall."(What I'm repeatedly told)

I continue to upgrade my equipment so as to make it inviting, like I invested 600 dollars for "Fist Gear." Since I do Kenpo, I consider it an important resource, so I have all the gear I need necessary to have a great program.

I've spent hundreds recently for advertising, plus I also get it free in the paper as well, one bite is all I got.

I'm a high school teacher, former coach. Got 2, they quit after Yellow.

I see other commercial schools around me, mainly TKD, they manage to do well. Why? because in one, you can get 1st Black in less than 2 years. Works well for kids, but I refuse to lower myself to that stuff.

I now rent space at a gym, where I don't expect to draw weightlifters.(I do lift myself) I pay 15 an hr, for twice a week.

I want the outsiders, but they don't come, not even for a free lesson. I have no test fees, don't nickel, and dime them to death, no associations fees, and still, zero.


I've also contemplated teaching TKD, since I'm proficient with that(3rd Dan, ITF) Maybe that'll work, but I'm running out of ideas.

I also did "Personal Trainning" for 3 yrs at home, it was air conditioned, matted, but not many pepple, and had a YP add for 3 yrs, that did not pay for itself.

My next step probably, will drop the idea of having my own club, and donate time to help another gentleman with his club. At least, I can help somebody.

In essence, I congratulate ALL of you Instructors out there that have been successful in your situations. I wish I had your luck, and blessed good fortune. I don't know how you do it to stay alive.

My apologies for frustrated ramblings, so thanks for hearing me out!
:asian:

[A.R.K.]

RCastillo,

Don't feel bad partner, many of us are in/or have been in the same boat. I've never had more than 15 or so students at one time. They fade away due to lack of discipline mainly. But I've always said I'd rather have half a dozen serious students who show up and train hard than 50 that are half arsed. As I mentioned before, I teach for the enjoyment not the money...cause there isn't any :D

To see the light go on for someone or to have them tell you they successfully defended themselves in a real world altercation is in my opinion more rewarding that a monthly tuition check. And I find I learn more by teaching as well. There are other rewards then $.

Take care.

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
RCastillo,

Don't feel bad partner, many of us are in/or have been in the same boat. I've never had more than 15 or so students at one time. They fade away due to lack of discipline mainly. But I've always said I'd rather have half a dozen serious students who show up and train hard than 50 that are half arsed. As I mentioned before, I teach for the enjoyment not the money...cause there isn't any :D

To see the light go on for someone or to have them tell you they successfully defended themselves in a real world altercation is in my opinion more rewarding that a monthly tuition check. And I find I learn more by teaching as well. There are other rewards then $.

Take care.

:asian:

Thanks, I can really go with what you said on that last paragraph. I'll keep beating the brushes for students!:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RCastillo
I live in a city of almost 300,000

The last time I had a group to really work with was back last summer. I had 8 people, and through numerous issues, they all faded out.(That was the high point) I taught at the YWCA for almost 3 years. It was a great location, but couldn't draw people in. Plus, the administration rarely supported me, and went through 4 Program Coordinators.(They're still hunting for one since May) I've also heard it many times before, "I don't teach children, and that is my downfall."(What I'm repeatedly told)

I continue to upgrade my equipment so as to make it inviting, like I invested 600 dollars for "Fist Gear." Since I do Kenpo, I consider it an important resource, so I have all the gear I need necessary to have a great program.

I've spent hundreds recently for advertising, plus I also get it free in the paper as well, one bite is all I got.

I'm a high school teacher, former coach. Got 2, they quit after Yellow.

I see other commercial schools around me, mainly TKD, they manage to do well. Why? because in one, you can get 1st Black in less than 2 years. Works well for kids, but I refuse to lower myself to that stuff.

I now rent space at a gym, where I don't expect to draw weightlifters.(I do lift myself) I pay 15 an hr, for twice a week.

I want the outsiders, but they don't come, not even for a free lesson. I have no test fees, don't nickel, and dime them to death, no associations fees, and still, zero.


I've also contemplated teaching TKD, since I'm proficient with that(3rd Dan, ITF) Maybe that'll work, but I'm running out of ideas.

I also did "Personal Trainning" for 3 yrs at home, it was air conditioned, matted, but not many pepple, and had a YP add for 3 yrs, that did not pay for itself.

My next step probably, will drop the idea of having my own club, and donate time to help another gentleman with his club. At least, I can help somebody.

In essence, I congratulate ALL of you Instructors out there that have been successful in your situations. I wish I had your luck, and blessed good fortune. I don't know how you do it to stay alive.

My apologies for frustrated ramblings, so thanks for hearing me out!
:asian:

An issue that I've experienced is to find a "balance" between what and who you teach and minimizing your overhead expenses.

Like my Sifu I teach privately. That does well for minimizing the overhead and it allows me "control" who I teach as well as who I personally train with. I too, do not teach kids, nor do I have any desire to unless they are family or friends, other wise its not worth the trade off.

I can't give specifics because I have to much unfinished buisness but I have in the works a buiness plan to allow me to keep my overhead down. I see that you're already there and are looking for more students.

Well I guess thats where the "balancing" your overhead and your "ethics" comes in.

I personally think its better to work on the "overhead." Also since you are qualified. Why don't you teach 2 classes, 1 Kenpo and 1 TKD. You'll double the possibilitie of new students. Your rent is $15 an hour. Thats not bad at all. I know people who have paid $30 an hour. Maybe you can do 2 hours in a row, teach 2 separate classes and offer you current students a great deal to train in both classes.

That would leave you with 2 classes up and running to recruit new students into. Maybe offer a discount to any student who takes both classes. Trial and error. Its the same with your advertising. Some forms of advertisement just don't work. Your money goes much farther putting it on something more solid like yourself!

:asian:

[A.R.K.]

A bit off topic perhaps, but AKJA mentioned private instruction. For those that do private instruction, how do you like it as opposed to the larger class? What do you charge? How did you get started? How many private lessons do you do? Is it the same curriculem as a larger class?

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
A bit off topic perhaps, but AKJA mentioned private instruction. For those that do private instruction, how do you like it as opposed to the larger class? What do you charge? How did you get started? How many private lessons do you do? Is it the same curriculem as a larger class?

:asian:

I'm heading that way now. For Kenpo, I really prefer it because I can pay attention to a certain group rather than several levels at the same time. I intend to do semi private as well, for groups of at least 3, provided they are on the same page.

I 'll charge 35 an hr, half of that goes to room rental, if it wasn't for that, it'd be 20 an hr.

I'm basing it on the Tracy System, and it would be a mininum at of least once a week.

The curriculum will be the same, unless they don't want to go for rank.
:asian:

[Marcus Buonfiglio]

I own my own buisness. Teach out of my garage two nights a week removing the contents of the garage out to the driveway ie: bikes, motorcycle, ping pong table, air compressor, chairs, work out equipment, etc, etc. Vaccuum the carpet and clean the mirror (a huge sucker) if necessary. For this I charge my students nothing. However the agreement is that when I have my instructor out for seminars they help pay the upfront money. I also have some students in the Eureka area (7 hr drive) that I have started teaching once every two months for 5 hrs on a Saturday. For that I charge $100.00 each. I pay my own gas (aprox. $80.00) and we get in some good shooting. I charge them to help offset the $500-750.00 I loose in earnings by taking the day off to drive. Never got payed for the 13 years that I taught at my previous instructors commercial dojo. I got a reduced rate on my lessons. Although he was definitely getting the better part of the bargain as I was teaching 4-5 days a week I didn't care because I was and still am passionate about Kenpo and get tremendous enjoyment from passing on what I have learned.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
A bit off topic perhaps, but AKJA mentioned private instruction. For those that do private instruction, how do you like it as opposed to the larger class? What do you charge? How did you get started? How many private lessons do you do? Is it the same curriculem as a larger class?


Private is better because its more detail oriented. My private classes are not like the privates you would take from someone by the hour. I wish I was worth that much!:D

I teach my students according to where their at and what I expect them to learn. Class is as long as it takes, between 1.5 to 2.5 hours on a good day. I was taught in the same fashion by my Sifu and it works well.

I don't currently charge anyone. But thats a temporary thing! :D

The curriculum is the same as if I ran a large class but like fasttrack training. I don't hold back, they get what they can handle. My current students are in my plans for my "growth" as a martial artist and for my buisness.

:asian:

[Flatlander]

Old thread, new perspectives.... Chime in, folks!

[Rich Parsons]

With discussions on subjects like honesty, intregrity, rank, and such, the discussions have addressed the effect monetary gain has on these things. I was wondering the business status of some of the instructors here. And how they feel about martial arts instruction as a business or vocation.

The club I belong too, is run by me senior in the art.

I teach most of the classes unless I am away or unless he wishes to take over. Then no questions asked by me. :)

I also teach privates out of my home.

I also teach seminars and as guest instructor at a camp or two.

I also have a full time career outside of Martial Arts that I also enjoy.

I wish your poll was multiple choice. :D

[Kacey]

I started teaching TKD at a YMCA, when the class I was in branched out to have a children's class; both the adults' and childrens' classes were forced out because other, larger classes needed our space (we were in a racquetball class at the back of the building, so the class didn't grow... go figure...), and I ended up renting for a while.

That ended when the owner of the dance studio sold the business to someone who didn't want any non-dance classes in the studio, and I had to move. I had been having problems with one family paying their dues - the mother didn't think she should have to pay for days her kids couldn't come due to religious holidays (Orthodox Jewish) and never seemed to understand (or care) that I had to pay rent whether her kids showed up or not, so I went looking for a location that would cover the overhead and collect the dues for me.

I found a location at a different YMCA. I was kind of leery about that, given my prior experience, but the Y I'm at now is wonderful, and slowly but steadily, my class is growing. I have 11 students (from a low of 3) and have picked up one or two new students every couple of sessions for the last year (sessions are 7 weeks long), including 3 black belts, 2 of whom started with me as white belts. The cost of the class is $65/session for Y members, and $110 for non-Y members; when I started at the previous Y in 1987, the class was $30/month, so that's a really good rate, especially for members. We are in a room that is on the new-member tour, which helps get new members (in addition to being in the course schedule), and several of my students have brought friends to class, which also helps.

[TigerWoman]

None of those options apply. I teach TKD for free, and kickboxing for a nominal charge until I can make up some of the advertising costs. I don't have another job, as I have retired from illustration/graphic arts. My last art job was for free, the logo design the instructor uses for the school. And I don't think martial arts is something you can get rich on, on even plan to retire on, just not a money-maker. TW

[Grenadier]

I have a full time job, and teach at my chief instructor's (CI) school. I actually teach most of the classes at one particular school (has multiple schools, and goes back and forth between all of them), but when it comes to business matters, I'm certainly grateful that the CI takes care of them.

If the CI needs to go out of town, I can certainly run the school, and even handle the more mundane business activities, but in terms of business strategies, advertising choices, tax matters, insurance, etc., I won't handle them, since I don't have the business experience (yet).

The thought of opening up my own dojo, or even working at the CI's dojo full time, has crossed my mind several times in the past, but I often times wonder if it's one of those "the grass is greener on the other side" type of thoughts. While it would certainly be more fulfilling, it's simply a risk I cannot take, since my regular job comes with superb benefits, and that I already have too much invested in it to simply leave.

I have the utmost of respect for those who do open up their own schools, or for those who have made the martial arts their full time careers. Even if I may not like their style, or even the individuals themselves, I must still respect their dedication to the martial arts, regardless of who they are. Of course, that doesn't mean I have to like them...

[terryl965]

My school is my passion not a job, I'm fortunite that I own some pretty good businesses that I really do not have to work, retired teacher too. My wife who is 13 years younger is still a teacher so that is another source or us. I would like to build one of the biggest school ever in the history of MA, some thing a Sam club warehouse with 10-12 different style under one roof and all the head instructor where humble enough to work together for the benefits of all. Well we all have dreams I guess, maybe one day mine will come true everything else in my life has so why not this.
Terry

[bushidomartialarts]

About once a month I'll make a decision that feels like I'm weighing teaching & art vs. business & income. I believe I make the decision on the side of teaching most of the time.

I do believe I'm fortunate on that score, however. Due to a couple of fortunate business partnerships, my school does pretty well. We throw enough income that I can fire a student or make an unpopular decision and not risk closing my doors.

A lot of martial arts schools are operating pretty close to the line. A teaching>business decision for them could mean closing forever.

Interesting question: what harms the art more, promoting a student who's not ready, or losing a quality school and instructor?

[Fluffy]

I'm a part time club with a full time job, but hope to be a full time school with no other source of income within a year or so.

[IcemanSK]

I teach at my city's Community Center when I also work. I was volunteering to help teach the Karate class on my days off. My boss decided I need to be paid to do that. Then when she heard that Taekwondo was the art I have rank in, they asked if I'd teach my own program. I started early last month with 10 students. We have 11 week sessions 2 hours per week. They're having fun & I'm having a blast! I help the kids with their homework, then we go into the Dance/MA room & have TKD class. Its neat to really be able to make a difference in these kid's lives in this unique way.

[Matt]

I have a full (plus) time job running a group home for teens who have autism or other severe behavior disorders, but I teach (part time) for my friend's school. I used to teach adult education and afterschool programs as well, but my current schedule combined with graduate school (Physical Education) rules it out.


Matt

[Fluffy]

I teach at my city's Community Center when I also work. I was volunteering to help teach the Karate class on my days off. My boss decided I need to be paid to do that. Then when she heard that Taekwondo was the art I have rank in, they asked if I'd teach my own program. I started early last month with 10 students. We have 11 week sessions 2 hours per week. They're having fun & I'm having a blast! I help the kids with their homework, then we go into the Dance/MA room & have TKD class. Its neat to really be able to make a difference in these kid's lives in this unique way.

Sounds like you are having a very positive impact! Keep it up!

[IcemanSK]

Sounds like you are having a very positive impact! Keep it up!

Thank you, sir. Its the best job I've ever had:)

[tshadowchaser]

I have a full time ( and then some) job and teach at a private club.
If this area was big enough to go full time teaching I would love to try doing so

[Gemini]

I work full time and help instruct at a school. I intend to one day open a school of my own, but as a side venture, not as a primary source of income. I'll keep working, and possibly employ a qualified instructor to run the classes. The intend is to focus on quality, not profit. I don't want to be put into a position where I may need to make compromises to keep the doors open as many commercial schools are forced to do. If it can't at least pay for itself over a reasonable amount of time, I'll close it before I go that route.

[stone_dragone]

Currently I am teaching four 90 min classes a week to Soldiers, Airmen, civilians (and anyone else that shows up) in Balad, Iraq. I don't charge anything for the classes, per se. I do have a few recommended costs (uniform, gear, etc) but nothing mandatory. I make it clear the the cost for the gear and uniform (I try to sell a package deal and have it shipped here from the states) is higher than if they were to buy it themselves online and that the extra $$ goes to buying kicking shields, ocus pads, etc.

I've been teaching here since November 2, 2005 and have about 8 steady folks that come. Unfortunately, the population is transient and inconsistent due to operational tempo. Our little group is fairly tightknit, though and I'm conident that they will continue even without me when we all leave this cursed place.

Cheers!

[LawDog]

I instruct / train at my school five days a week. Monday - Thursday I am activley training or instructing from 4pm untill 9pm. Either on Friday or Saturday I work out "with" my instructors anywhere from three to four hours.
Next year I will be retiring from my regular full time employment, I will then begin running my schools on a full time 10am - 9pm basis.

[stabpunch]

I am a qualified instructor for Hakarac. However i am not yet ready to open a school. Perhaps i am too comfortable as an assistant. I have no problem in charging for instruction, people should realise they are customers to a school in most cases.

Say the school was a burger joint. Would you continue to puchase burgers from a place that had roaches in their burger? The same can be said about schools, people spend too much time ragging on about 'they charge too much', 'rip off', 'sells snake oil'.

At the end of the day if you don't like a product don't buy it. Instead of saying 'your mcdojo sells crap bugers' perhaps people could say "gee that sounds like a great burger, here try mine it tastes really good'
:)

[jks9199]

With discussions on subjects like honesty, intregrity, rank, and such, the discussions have addressed the effect monetary gain has on these things. I was wondering the business status of some of the instructors here. And how they feel about martial arts instruction as a business or vocation.

I don't have a problem with people making their living teaching martial arts. It's just not something that my system permits.

There is a catch, though. When your living depends on your teaching, you need those students coming in. You're selling something, and you have to sell what people will buy. That doesn't mean you can't be successful and keep traditional -- but that you're going to have to recognize that while you've got some traditional students, you're also going to have to have the kickboxing aerobic classes or kiddie classes, and so on. You also have to avoid the temptation to have all sorts of extra fees to meet the bottom line (like having lots of belt testing fees, etc.)

I think that an honest person will be honest in what they do; they'll be fair to their clients/students. And I think that the less honest will be less honest; they'll be the ones running belt mills and hoping to have students sign that 10 year contract with no outs and then drop out so that they collect the fee and don't have to do anything for it!

[Haze]

We, the people I train with, have 3 locations right now. 2 community centers and a church. I train/teach at 2 of them, one on Monday and one on Thursday. Students can train at any of the locations and it cost $35 per month ( we have no overhead, space is donated) and that goes toward buying needed equiptment.

I have a few students that are interested in training with me at my house. They want to get more into grappling and submission stuff so I might be adding that into the mix also.