Eye Poke In Captured Twigs??

[Kirk]

In my school, the way we're taught Captured Twigs, the first
strike is a right back hammer fist to your opponent's groin. But
we chamber it big time, which is used as a block (not a stiking
block though) to prevent the attacker from applying the bear hug.

I was telling a brown belt in class last night that the "block" ...
where you throw your arm out straight ... could also be an eye
poke, in a multiple attacker scenario, if you're attacked from
behind and directly in front of you. The brown belt laughed
hysterically :shrug:

[Michael Billings]

OK, I don't train it as an "Attempted" Bear Hug, but as a fiat accompli, so pinning the opponent's arms to ensure they don't raise them up for the inadvertant choke, as you step, sink, and execute the back hammerfist is what I teach.

Of course you can poke anyone you want to in the eyes in the scenario you give Kirk - it is an awefully drastic move when you remove their sight, but you could just as easily utilize a graduated response and do a heel palm or punch if you do not need to maim immediately?

I would argue that Captured Twigs works great against a Bear Hug, arms pinned - and since Kenpo in general has only a few single opponent rear bear hug, arms pinned attacks (Crushing Hammer, Squeezing the Peaches e.g., and Spreading Branch for some schools), it may be worthwhile to explore how to make this work both ways since it is a common attack. We do explore it more at higher levels against 2-man attacks.

Oss

[kenpofist2]

Hey Kirk,

Well in Captured Twigs, as the name implies, your arms are pinned at the beginning. Therefore no forward arm movement could be done until the attackes grip is broken. Perhaps you could do a eye gouge but it would have to be performed on a pissed off midget from 12 o'clock. LOL

Maybe that was the visual the Brown Belt had when he laughed.


:asian:

[KenpoTess]

In our curriculum.. captured twigs is a defense against a rear bear hug.. arms pinned up high...

Left foot to 9:00.. left hand pins attackers hands.. right hammer fist to the groin/bladder.. pivot body quickly (which should break their grip) to 3:00 Right foot into cat stance ..Right stomp to their instep.. left hand checking high.. right hand low.. as you raise right obscure elbow slamming them in the jaw.. return to checking positions.. cross over.. cover out..


I guess if you took your left check away.. you could poke em in the eyes.. but why bother... do it fast and get outta there :)

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by KenpoTess
In our curriculum.. captured twigs is a defense against a rear bear hug.. arms pinned up high...

Left foot to 9:00.. left hand pins attackers hands.. right hammer fist to the groin/bladder.. pivot body quickly (which should break their grip) to 3:00 Right foot into cat stance... with the left hand checking the opponents left (high) and your right hand clearing the opponents right arm (low) this opens up the eyes for a possible eye shot, then ..Right stomp to their instep.... step in with your right foot and delliver a right obscure elbow slamming them in the jaw.. cross over.. cover out..


:asian:

[Kirk]

I find it more and more funny, how people acknowledge that the
"my lineage is better than your lineage" statement is crap, and
doesn't promote "brotherhood" in kenpo. Yet they can't stick to
a topic thread about a technique. Why don't you guys just come
out and say "You're doing it wrong" and "My instructor is the best
in the whole wide wonderful world". I grow tired of those trying
to promote a sense of community in kenpo in one breath, and
then in another say "your lineage sucks" .. IN SO MANY WORDS.

If you're gonna tell me how YOU do a techinique .. and least have
the gawd darn decency to discuss the freaking topic. What I'm
personally finding out is that the ones most disliked in the kenpo
online world are the ones willing to share any tiny bit of
information with you about kenpo. The ones that come across as humble, and have a desire to learn from anyone
and teach anyone are the ones that have an agenda.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
I find it more and more funny, how people acknowledge that the
"my lineage is better than your lineage" statement is crap, and
doesn't promote "brotherhood" in kenpo. Yet they can't stick to
a topic thread about a technique. Why don't you guys just come
out and say "You're doing it wrong" and "My instructor is the best
in the whole wide wonderful world". I grow tired of those trying
to promote a sense of community in kenpo in one breath, and
then in another say "your lineage sucks" .. IN SO MANY WORDS.

If you're gonna tell me how YOU do a techinique .. and least have
the gawd darn decency to discuss the freaking topic. What I'm
personally finding out is that the ones most disliked in the kenpo
online world are the ones willing to share any tiny bit of
information with you about kenpo. The ones that come across as humble, and have a desire to learn from anyone
and teach anyone are the ones that have an agenda.

Where did that come from........ I don't recall anyone talking about lineage or the likes.......? please explain your point a little clearer for me.

:asian:

[Kirk]

Compare Mr Billing's Post with Tess' and kenpofist's.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
Compare Mr Billing's Post with Tess' and kenpofist's.


Ok, but I still don't see what you are talking about.

:confused:

[Kirk]

I didn't ask who does what, or if you feel that the way I was
taught a tech is inferior (which was implied imo) ... otherwise
why did I post the way WE do it???? :confused:

I posted for an exchange of information in a specific regard, I
didn't ask for "how do you do the tech". A reply like that tells me
you're not interested in a free exchange among your brethren.
You're interested in telling me how much better you are, or how
much better your training is, or how much better your knowledge
is. And hey .. that kind of attitude is just fine .. but put that out
there, don't try to come across as a humble person that's open
minded. :soapbox:

[jeffkyle]

I am not sure it would be totally a poke...as more of a eye rake, for distraction purposes mainly. At least that is how I see it.
:shrug: :asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
OK, I don't train it as an "Attempted" Bear Hug, but as a fiat accompli, so pinning the opponent's arms to ensure they don't raise them up for the inadvertant choke, as you step, sink, and execute the back hammerfist is what I teach.

Of course you can poke anyone you want to in the eyes in the scenario you give Kirk - it is an awefully drastic move when you remove their sight, but you could just as easily utilize a graduated response and do a heel palm or punch if you do not need to maim immediately?

I would argue that Captured Twigs works great against a Bear Hug, arms pinned - and since Kenpo in general has only a few single opponent rear bear hug, arms pinned attacks (Crushing Hammer, Squeezing the Peaches e.g., and Spreading Branch for some schools), it may be worthwhile to explore how to make this work both ways since it is a common attack. We do explore it more at higher levels against 2-man attacks.

Oss
I don't know if this will cause anyone a problem, but I agree with you completely.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Kirk
I was telling a brown belt in class last night that the "block" ...
where you throw your arm out straight ... could also be an eye
poke, in a multiple attacker scenario, if you're attacked from
behind and directly in front of you.

Are you talking about just before you cover out?:asian:

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Kirk
In my school, the way we're taught Captured Twigs, the first
strike is a right back hammer fist to your opponent's groin. But
we chamber it big time, which is used as a block (not a stiking
block though) to prevent the attacker from applying the bear hug.

I was telling a brown belt in class last night that the "block" ...
where you throw your arm out straight ... could also be an eye
poke, in a multiple attacker scenario, if you're attacked from
behind and directly in front of you. The brown belt laughed
hysterically :shrug:

Kirk...

Reading your post over.. I am not really seeing a question.. only a comment.. your comment to a brown belt.. About a scenario of what-if's... and how to treat the what-if.. There is no Tug of war here from my view point.. You can voice your opinion.. and so can I.. I have learned the tec the way it was taught.. as a Yellow belt technique.. 'The Ideal Stage'
I'm not dissing the way you were taught.. Why should I? Why should I say our way is the only right way..I'm not inferring such a thing.. sure a multiple scenario.. you can eyepoke.. Once you have your arms free (in the IKKO curriculum) there's so many what'ifs and insertions here that it's boundless.. we don't know what we are defending against.. (In a multiple attacker scenario)perhaps a kick... don't think an eyepoke is relevant in that situation.. or a punch.. what's it's target? I hope you see where I'm going with this..
There's so many tecs I wouldn't use.. but the Yellow and Orange belt techniques are the entire Base of EPAK. Learn those inside and out and then we can start - with the Formulation theory..

Tess

[Kirk]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Are you talking about just before you cover out?:asian:

No. I understand that a lot of people do techs differently. The
way we do this tech is against an attempted bear hug. When
the attacker's arms start to come around you, you extend your
right arm straight out, and your left arm comes across and does
pretty much an inward block (but with palm out), to prevent the
arms from wrapping around you. The right arm is now chambered
for a hammer fist to the groin (stepping off to 9 happens when
you to the first move). Then you:



bring your right foot towards your left foot as you rotate
clockwise into a Right 90 Degree Cat Stance, execute a Right
Back Elbow Strike (toward 9 o'clock) to your opponent's left bicep
or forearm in order to check the left arm of your opponent.

Reverse your body rotation (Counter-Clockwise) as you drop
toward 3 o'clock with your right foot back into a Horse Stance
while simultaneously executing a Right Inward Downward
Diagonal Elbow Strike to opponent's left floating rib cage area.

Immediately execute a Right Upward Obscure Elbow Strike to the
underside of your opponent's chin.

No cover out is required.


What I'm asking is ... is there something so ridiculous about an
eye poke there? (It is NOT part of the written technique) Or is it
so far down the list of logical things to do in this two attacker
scenario that it would make an upper rank laugh? The brown belt
that did it normally comes across as a very nice guy, so I don't
think his laugh was ill spirited, which is why I ask.

[jfarnsworth]

I think I see what you're talking about now. After reading carefully you (at least my take) were referring to the right hand coming straight out as the attempted bear hug came in. When the right hand shoots directly out of course there's a possible thrusting eye poke to a second attacker at 12 o'clock.;) After that the right arm can retract into a right backward elbow or outward elbow depending upon the attacker from behind. I hope this will help you out.:asian:

[KatGurl]

I don't want to sound dumb, but I don't see where an eye poke could be inserted. The closest attack to the head is the upward elbow, I believe. I may need to think harder, but I just can't see (at the moment) how an eye poke could be inserted.

You don't have to listen to me, because you probably could, I guess. :idunno:

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kirk
No. I understand that a lot of people do techs differently. The
way we do this tech is against an attempted bear hug. When
the attacker's arms start to come around you, you extend your
right arm straight out, and your left arm comes across and does
pretty much an inward block (but with palm out), to prevent the
arms from wrapping around you. The right arm is now chambered
for a hammer fist to the groin (stepping off to 9 happens when
you to the first move). Then you:



What I'm asking is ... is there something so ridiculous about an
eye poke there? (It is NOT part of the written technique) Or is it
so far down the list of logical things to do in this two attacker
scenario that it would make an upper rank laugh? The brown belt
that did it normally comes across as a very nice guy, so I don't
think his laugh was ill spirited, which is why I ask.
Kirk,
The eye poke is lower on the list of priorities when dealing with a bear hug to the rear. It is more important to counter grab, stabilize your base, work his weakest base of support, become neutral. Minor moves are very effective; so, don't get me wrong. It would be nice if you could blind a second attacker before you took the time to deal with the guy who just grabbed you but as far as priorities go, your attack on a second opponent is not exactly the highest priority at that moment. Alas, eye pokes are not exactly unusefull either; however, they are not priorities in contact manipulation situations. :rolleyes:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
What I'm asking is ... is there something so ridiculous about an
eye poke there?


As we discussed early this morning ....... there could be a huge amount of "inserts" that you could use ....... (an eyepoke is only one) and all could be possible depending upon range, and a number of other factors that we out here do not see in computerland. All is possible.


Originally posted by Kirk
(It is NOT part of the written technique)


There are many, many of these. Kenpo is so versatile that we will never be bored with material options.


Originally posted by Kirk
Or is it so far down the list of logical things to do in this two attacker scenario that it would make an upper rank laugh?


That, as we discussed early this morning, IMHO it is not our of the question or funny (from what I understand about the issue) so the ONLY person you can ask is that brown belt..... as to why it tickled him.


Originally posted by Kirk
The brown belt that did it normally comes across as a very nice guy, so I don't think his laugh was ill spirited, which is why I ask.


Well, don't guess, imagine, or assume....... JUST ask him ~ HE is the ONLY one that can answer your question correctly...... the rest of us can only guess. [now I want to know what HE says....... lol]

:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Well, don't guess, imagine, or assume....... JUST ask him ~ HE is the ONLY one that can answer your question correctly...... the rest of us can only guess. [now I want to know what HE says....... lol]

As do I:asian:

[Doc]

I think the larger question here in my opinion is, "If you teach this technique for an ATTEMPTED bear-hug, what do you do for an actual bear-hug?"

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Doc
I think the larger question here in my opinion is, "If you teach this technique for an ATTEMPTED bear-hug, what do you do for an actual bear-hug?"

We learn it both ways, but no one needs to tell you the numerous
techniques for bear hugs, do they? :p

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kirk
We learn it both ways, but no one needs to tell you the numerous
techniques for bear hugs, do they? :p
Aye Captain Kirk! We do the same with a weee bit of sweetnin' for the Klingons.

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Doc
Aye Captain Kirk! We do the same with a weee bit of sweetnin' for the Klingons.

Other than the fact that Conatser looks mean... What's wrong with Klingons?

And I am curious now that the question has been raised ... Sort of... What do you do to a fully applied bearhug with arms pinned?

Points awarded for reaaaalllly courteous responses. :p :rofl: :p

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Sigung86
And I am curious now that the question has been raised ... Sort of... What do you do to a fully applied bearhug with arms pinned?

Counter grab the grabber, check the height zone, beat the tar
out of them :D

[Michael Billings]

... ya just have to hold your tongue just right. Actually there are several ways of making this specific technique work. I actually like the ideal phase and have had great success with it .... of course, that is after I hated it for a decade or so.:rofl:

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
of course, that is after I hated it for a decade or so.:rofl:

I feel your pain! :(

[Doc]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Other than the fact that Conatser looks mean... What's wrong with Klingons?

And I am curious now that the question has been raised ... Sort of... What do you do to a fully applied bearhug with arms pinned?

Points awarded for reaaaalllly courteous responses. :p :rofl: :p
THere are certain anatomical physical things a person must do to apply a "bear-hug" from the rear, and therefore there are specific mechanisms that can and do counter, trap, and control such actions. In SL-4 Kenpo they come under the heading of "Survive The Initial Assault Mechanisms™" and are activity dedicated specific, and are taught in the classroom because of their significant physicallity. We rountinely work on these with students as they are taught the technique from the beginning. However, attempting to explain it on the net would be like trying to teach a defensive lineman how to disengage an offensive lineman in a red dog blitz out of a cover two defensive set. The mechanisms when taught are not that complicated, but they must be taught with your body a part of the process to comprehend. Simply you must:

1. Counter the Body Momentum
2. Regain/retain your balance
3. Control his hands and arms
4. Misalign his body to Negative Posture
5. Control his height, width, & depth
6. Begin the counter process.

Sorry about the football analogy but it's almost that time and I'm getting antsy. Go Rams & Raiders!

[Sigung86]

I feel your pain Doc, and have almost every reason to believe that I understand what you listed. At least for this particular situation. :lol: :asian: :asian: