One Steps & Realism

[dancingalone]

Do you believe one steps should be usable self-defense in of themselves? Or it is merely to teach technique and physical mechanics?

As a further question, do you believe the one steps you use right now align themselves 100% to the goals you have for them?

[Tez3]

Are your one and three steps set out for them to learn or can your students do whatever SD movements they want?

Your answer depends on mine :)

[bluewaveschool]

The one steps we teach would work in a SD situation. The white/yellow/1st green work off of punches, but I do teach SD of grabs to those students as well. Over about 40% of my students are females under 16. Boys get in fist fights, but a predator would try and grab one of my girls instead of punch. They need to know how to get someone bigger off of them, and they do.

[granfire]

they can most certainly be composed so that they are a complete SD manouver.

Naturally, the lower belt ones are a but more static...couple of girls I trained with had their own made up including a few throws they had learned from their previous instructor who was also ranked in hapkido. Fun to watch them.

[ATC]

Well we just changed our 1 steps. The old ones and the new ones seem as if they would work in an SD situation. Remember SD is not fighting. SD in most cases are one or two moves to surprise you attacker, and stun them long enough for you to get away or make them run away.

With that said I have never use any of our one steps in an SD situation but on of our girl students have. She use it at school to put a bully down. The particular one step used was one that I would never attempt to use as it called for falling to the ground and kicking out the knee. I am to old to just fall (it hurts), but for some reason many of the kids love that particular one step. To make a long story shorter, she did the one step on him and he laid crying on the ground holding his knee. She ran to the school office and told on herself right afterwards and the boy got into trouble. So he got taken out by a girl and got into trouble as well.

Our one steps are also not taught as SD but I think they could work in an SD situation.

[StudentCarl]

I think they are useable but require a higher level of training than many students commit to make them automatic and thus locked and loaded.

When I started TKD in the late 70s, we had ten one steps at each of white, yellow and green belts. I took what felt best from them and practiced daily at home on a heavy bag. When I had someone actually take a right hand swing at my head, I don't remember any thought but the execution was exactly what I had practiced daily. He ended up with a ridge hand just below his ear and unconscious. I was in a leg cast at the time and had practiced with how the cast changed my defensive options.

I'm saying they're as real as you make them, but the key is the committed practice to ingrain them.

[puunui]

I haven't done Taekwondo one step sparring in decades. However, in keeping with the original purpose of five, three and one step sparring, we have replaced those with hogu drills. The instructors I know who still keep one step sparring in their curriculum do so for belt testing and curriculum filler purposes.

However in Hapkido, one step sparring of sorts is the main way the techniques are transmitted and practiced. So there is that.

[ETinCYQX]

Specifically for the grab SD ones, definitely.

For the ones that are almost like sparring drills, i.e kicking and countering, we do those at as high a speed as we're comfortable with, and full contact. Half the time, no sparring gear either. So perhaps more applicable than some drills.

[Manny]

Do you believe one steps should be usable self-defense in of themselves? Or it is merely to teach technique and physical mechanics?

As a further question, do you believe the one steps you use right now align themselves 100% to the goals you have for them?

I see the one steps as a learning tool, one stepes teach the student to develop timing to defend him/her self and counter or finish the bad guy. Can be one steps be used to defend ourselves? well it depends. In my short MA life I've seen a lot of techs including one steps that are arcaic and not practical from the real self defense we need these days and I want to give you an example.

Some time back in my kenpo class I saw how a brown belt perfomed some disarming (handgun) techs very flashy but some how this guy always got rid of the hangun!!!! I mean he threw it away!!!! OMG I looked this and just ask him.. Hey, can I ask you why you threw away the gun and don't use it to keep the bad guy at bay? This brow belt saw at me in a particular way and answer me:... well.... that's because that's the way we practice here the tech.... Oh boy!!! I just shaked my head and ask him to show my tech.

I performed a tech I learned from some kind of krav maga and afther the disarming I took the handung and performed a tap and rack drill (I hope you know what this is, I performed this drills tons of times when I was a practical pistol shooter) at the same I time I yelled very clear and loud to the other guy GET TO THE FLOOR M....FU.....R!!! while I was aiming him. The class just get scary about my yelling. Then I returned the gun to the brown belt and told him: THIS IS THE WAY TO DISARM A BAD GUY. Why not use his weapon to subdue the m..... f.....r??? The one who has the weapon is the one who has the power.

Well this brown belt didn't get it, he returned to his old fashion way to disarme the guy, I just hope he will never have to disarm a tough guy on the streets.

Sorry for the story, let's get inside your questions back dancingalone.

My own one steps (not necesarily the ones my sambunim teaches) and self defense techs are not 100% realibles, I mean they are 90-95% realibles inside de dojang that is a controled enviroment but in the streets, high in adrenaline and fear the human body can respond in very weird form, nothing is 100% for sure, however even with this one steps and self defense techs can be very handy and useful if need it and can make the diference beetwen death or life.

Manny

[dancingalone]

I'm saying they're as real as you make them, but the key is the committed practice to ingrain them.

My opinion is that most sets used out there are indeed just filler material as puunui alludes to. I myself think they are an invaluable teaching tool, but they must be designed and then drilled comprehensively.

These are a few of my thoughts about one steps:

They should build on one another. I would prefer to cluster together 3 belt levels such as white, yellow, orange and design one steps for them such as they repeat the same movements to instill them in the student. Thus, if we believe that a sequence of avoid blow, wrap/control arm, counter has merit, then the one steps should all run on the same theme. I find that there is too much variety typically in the organization of one steps, so the student is exposed to too much all at once.

One steps should be designed and taught in such a way that their application is as universal as possible. Does the same one step work off a straight punch, a hook punch, a wrist grab, or even a push? If it doesn't, perhaps the design should be reconsidered.

One steps should reflect a base level of flexibility and physical attainment if they are meant to teach self-defense. Save the jump spinning wheel kicks for other parts of your class time/curriculum. Stick to the core idea that SD counters need to be quick, simple, and realizable for even the smallest and weakest among us.

[Manny]

Stick to the core idea that SD counters need to be quick, simple, and realizable for even the smallest and weakest among us.

That's the key to teach/learn SD techs, nothing more, nothing less.

Manny

[dancingalone]

That's the key to teach/learn SD techs, nothing more, nothing less.

Manny

I've seen some rather bizarre one steps. Like blocking a straight punch with an inside to outside block, reverse punch to the face, and then a jump spinning wheel kick to finish. Never mind the fact that if the reverse punch worked even partially, the opportunity for the wheel kick wouldn't even be available.

These kind of one steps make me think they aren't designed to teach usable SD combinations, but instead to train the body and techniques instead.

[Manny]

I've seen some rather bizarre one steps. Like blocking a straight punch with an inside to outside block, reverse punch to the face, and then a jump spinning wheel kick to finish. Never mind the fact that if the reverse punch worked even partially, the opportunity for the wheel kick wouldn't even be available.

These kind of one steps make me think they aren't designed to teach usable SD combinations, but instead to train the body and techniques instead.

Yeah, I have seen so bizarre self defense techs too. For me a self defense tech must be easy to perform, quick and strong. I really don't like complicated self defense techs they are worthless, simple and direct sd techs are the better ones.

Manny

[ATC]

I've seen some rather bizarre one steps. Like blocking a straight punch with an inside to outside block, reverse punch to the face, and then a jump spinning wheel kick to finish. Never mind the fact that if the reverse punch worked even partially, the opportunity for the wheel kick wouldn't even be available.

These kind of one steps make me think they aren't designed to teach usable SD combinations, but instead to train the body and techniques instead.One steps should be basic and practical. I have seen moves where they expect the attacker to still be infront of them after a series of moves. One steps should be one block one hit, maybe two if done in rapid sucsession, then get the hell out of there is you can.

You are correct, I have seen some movie type stuff as well and that should not be the case.

[bluewaveschool]

Look at the SD section of Choi's encyclopedia sometime. Block then jumping away flying knifehand attack?

[xfighter88]

I think we like to pretend that one steps are great self defense tools. I feel that they are great for kids to learn body mechanics but worthless for real life self defense. The biggest thing in self defense is stress/fear management so that you can even attempt your techniques. Oddly enough this is also th part of self defense that is neglected the most. Instead we learn to cross our arms and then block a punch that wasn't really intended to hit us, and follow up with a specific technique requiring small joint control and manipulation while the opponent cooperates. Seems kind of pointless to me.

Real life defense situations require indignation over fear and reaction with gross motor movments.

Just my 2 cents. Feel free to hate on me. :soapbox:

[dancingalone]

I think we like to pretend that one steps are great self defense tools. I feel that they are great for kids to learn body mechanics but worthless for real life self defense. The biggest thing in self defense is stress/fear management so that you can even attempt your techniques. Oddly enough this is also th part of self defense that is neglected the most. Instead we learn to cross our arms and then block a punch that wasn't really intended to hit us, and follow up with a specific technique requiring small joint control and manipulation while the opponent cooperates. Seems kind of pointless to me.

Real life defense situations require indignation over fear and reaction with gross motor movments.



Your prior experience in one step training is a prime example of not drilling them comprehensively. At some point after the one step has been learned and ingrained into muscle memory, the formality of using the announced step through punch should be ended, and the partner should attack in a free form fashion with high intensity. The defender should indeed be struck if he does not avoid correctly.

This is only common sense. If we want this to work for real, then we must train like it. Of course, the vast majority of dojo and dojang out there cater to children and to hobbyist students, so there you go.

[ralphmcpherson]

Your prior experience in one step training is a prime example of not drilling them comprehensively. At some point after the one step has been learned and ingrained into muscle memory, the formality of using the announced step through punch should be ended, and the partner should attack in a free form fashion with high intensity. The defender should indeed be struck if he does not avoid correctly.

This is only common sense. If we want this to work for real, then we must train like it. Of course, the vast majority of dojo and dojang out there cater to children and to hobbyist students, so there you go.You are spot on. During one steps the attacker should be throwing kicks and punches that if not defended WILL smash the defender. The attacker should not announce when he will throw the punch/kick. Commiting things to muscle memory is a must. As a youngster I played a couple of sports at a high level and nerves would eat me up before a big game and at times my arms and legs felt like jelly but when it was time for me to do something it just happened because it was just instinctual, I didnt even have to think, it just happened. One steps have to be done so many times over that if it ever has to be used muscle memory will just take over from the nerves, addrenalin etc.

[Manny]

Something I want to ad. There are many-many one steps and self defense techs out there to practice however, some of these techs are: a)poor, b)to clumsy and complicated, c)out of contest.... etc,etc,.

When I started in kenpo sensei told me the programs involves some 120-130 self defense techs, I would rather learn 30 of these self defense techs and do muscle memory than forget or be desoriented trying to recall 75 or 100 techs.

In my arsenal I have maybe 20-30 self defense techs/one steps that I recall and maybe 10 or 15 that I do very impecable, I am against to teach ALOT OF self defense techs, I'd rather teach some clever,sound and easy self defense techs that can suit a lot of people in a simple way.

Manny

[dancingalone]

When I started in kenpo sensei told me the programs involves some 120-130 self defense techs, I would rather learn 30 of these self defense techs and do muscle memory than forget or be desoriented trying to recall 75 or 100 techs.

In my arsenal I have maybe 20-30 self defense techs/one steps that I recall and maybe 10 or 15 that I do very impecable, I am against to teach ALOT OF self defense techs, I'd rather teach some clever,sound and easy self defense techs that can suit a lot of people in a simple way.


This touches on the kata/hyung idea that we've discussed many times on MT. Most schools simply practice far too many patterns to get any real benefit from them. It might be better to 'go retro' and learn only 1 or 2 and thus be able to deconstruct the pattern from all sides both solo and with partners.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Do you believe one steps should be usable self-defense in of themselves? Or it is merely to teach technique and physical mechanics?
Yes.

Unless your one steps are based on completely unrealistic attacks (chi ball deflection, for example), they will have some degree of SD value and will, of course, teach mechanics.


As a further question, do you believe the one steps you use right now align themselves 100% to the goals you have for them?
They seem to. My students practice one steps to learn the technique and then are made to apply the techniques in a more free form setting.

Daniel

[ralphmcpherson]

I think its also important to teach one steps with a view to the attackers whole body and not just the hand/foot they are attacking with. Often I see a wrist grab, for instance, being taught and while the defender clumsily paces through a series of overly complicated moves the attackers other hand is just dangling by their side. In a real life encounter that hand wouldnt be dangling it would be punching the defender square in the face while all their focus is on the hand that grabbed them. When we teach anything like this we are always conscience to keep the student aware of staying in a position to avoid attacks from their other limbs.

[bluewaveschool]

I will admit that while my white/yellow belt one steps work as SD, they are almost all working off a straight punch, with 1 tech being vs a kick and 1 vs an overhead strike. Green gets into one steps off grabs and such, taking the simple escapes we teach to beginners and adding the follow up that puts the attacker down.

As far as too many patterns... once you pass green in my school, ALL of your one steps are taken directly from the movements within the form. Taking the 'fight against an invisible attack' and breaking it down move by move. Decoding forms is fun.

[Devlin76]

I think one-steps fall into the same category as almost all MA techniques. They are effective if trained to be effective. One-steps that have solid body mechanics and tactics that are trained consistently and against resisting opponents are going to be useable for self-defense. One-steps that are perfectly sound are not going to work for the student if they do not train them consistently or realistically.

[puunui]

Here is what JKA Chief Instructor NAKAYAMA Masatoshi says about one step sparring:

*

The people of my generation were required to study martial arts beginning in grammar school, and continuing all the way through graduation from high school. Karate was not taught in the schools at that time, so all of us had studied judo or kendo. I began kendo training in grammar school, for example, and my friends had also practiced for a long time. But judo and kendo were centered around combat -- throwing an opponent or actually striking an opponent with a sword. So the idea of combat was deeply ingrained in us, and we really needed the combative aspect which karate lacked.

Master Funakoshi understood this, and he began to change his teaching methods to meet the needs of our younger generation. We needed more than just kata all the time, and he realized that things would have to if he was going to attract young people and see his art grow.

So, he picked techniques from the kata and began teaching gohon kumite (5-step sparring) based on individual techniques. We would step in 5 times with the same attack while the defender blocked. Then the defender would counter-attack. But we had high spirits, and if the defender did not counter-attack immediately, we would attack him again, and he would be forced to improvise a defense and try to counter again. These actions became the basis for free-sparring. It was just a natural outgrowth of spirited young people practicing with one another.

Shortly thereafter, we began kihon-ippon kumite, or 1 step sparring. In this method, the attacker would announce the target area to be attacked, face or stomach, and would then execute his strongest, most powerful technique. The defender had only one chance to make a powerful, correct block and counter-attack. This was very much in keeping with the basic philosophy of martial art which revolves around the concept that there is no second chance. Everything must be done correctly the first time, or the person dies. We weren't trying to kill each other, of course, but we were trying to execute that one, perfect technique which would stop the opponent in a real fighting situation.

A natural outgrowth of this kind of training was jyu-ippon kumite (one step sparring) in which the defender knew the area to be attacked, but in which the attacker could maneuver freely for position and distancing. The significant thing about this is that this was the first time karate had been taught in any way except for application of kata movements to self defense, and the entire system of kumite (sparring) developed in a single, 5 year period. When Master Funakoshi published Karate Kyohan (The Master Text of Karate) in 1936, he included basic sparring methods in the book, and this was the first time this brand new idea was introduced to the public at large.

.

I began training in 1932, and basic kumite was introduced in 1933. In 1934, jyu-ippon kumite was introduced, and jyu kumite (free sparring) began in 1935. In November of 1936, we formed the All Japan Collegiate Karate Union and gave a demonstration at the Tokyo Civic Center. For the first time in history, we showed the public the new training methods of kumite, and demonstrated how the student progresses from 5 step sparring to 1 step, then to semi-free and finally free sparring.

*

In other words, one step sparring was an intermediate step to teaching free sparring, or karate style sport sparring; it was not a vehicle to teach self defense.

[dancingalone]

In other words, one step sparring was an intermediate step to teaching free sparring, or karate style sport sparring; it was not a vehicle to teach self defense.

OK. Kata wasn't meant to be a competition activity either, but here we are.

Ultimately, a one step is just a practiced combination between two people with an attacker and defender role defined, whatever we want to call it. Such training has existed in one form or another well before Nakayama, in all sorts of martial arts and fighting systems, both Asian and Western. Okinawan karate has two man sets which share a lot of the same back and forth dynamics as one steps, yet their purpose is most definitely to teach skills and tactics useful in fighting (er, self-defense).

It is what we choose to make of it.

[puunui]

Ultimately, a one step is just a practiced combination between two people with an attacker and defender role defined, whatever we want to call it. Such training has existed in one form or another well before Nakayama, in all sorts of martial arts and fighting systems, both Asian and Western. Okinawan karate has two man sets which share a lot of the same back and forth dynamics as one steps, yet their purpose is most definitely to teach skills and tactics useful in fighting (er, self-defense).



That might be true, but from a Taekwondo perspective, which so many people want to say is "merely" a watered down version of shotokan, one step sparring was conceived for sport sparring, not self defense, which means that there is no tradition of self defense for one step sparring. One step sparring for self defense is not "traditional", anymore than belt ranks or standardized uniforms are. That's the point I'm trying to make, not that you cannot use one step sparring for self defense.

[dancingalone]

That might be true, but from a Taekwondo perspective, which so many people want to say is "merely" a watered down version of shotokan, one step sparring was conceived for sport sparring, not self defense, which means that there is no tradition of self defense for one step sparring. One step sparring for self defense is not "traditional", anymore than belt ranks or standardized uniforms are. That's the point I'm trying to make, not that you cannot use one step sparring for self defense.

I've heard people say tae kwon do is 'conflicted Shotokan' which is equally insulting, but somewhat more amusing. In any case, I would think that the current KKW expression of TKD has evolved so much that the Shotokan connection definitely is not prominent any longer. And given that there has been so much change both technically and culturally since the sixties, perhaps 'traditional' should not be an adjective used in connection with KKW TKD either.

[leadleg]

when you listen to kkw instructors you don't hear much talk about tradition but you do hear about the scientific aproach to developing tkd. I understand that the kkw looks at the development of tkd as ongoing, not something static as "tradition' denotes.

[terryl965]

when you listen to kkw instructors you don't hear much talk about tradition but you do hear about the scientific aproach to developing tkd. I understand that the kkw looks at the development of tkd as ongoing, not something static as "tradition' denotes.

Now this ineresting that KKW instructor do not talk about tradition, well I know alot of GM that talks about the traditional ways they was tought and how they have changed and sometime they wish certain tradirion was still around. But then again maybe there view of what they consider tradition and your kkw people are different.

[leadleg]

I certainly don't speak for the kkw just what I understand,always from a learning position.Tradition can mean many things but should not be used as an excuse not to try or learn new things. I have never heard kkw say anything about other styles of tkd as being bad or wrong. Although if you are kkw tkd there are definately ways of doing things that would not be say,traditional moo duk kwan.

[terryl965]

I certainly don't speak for the kkw just what I understand,always from a learning position.Tradition can mean many things but should not be used as an excuse not to try or learn new things. I have never heard kkw say anything about other styles of tkd as being bad or wrong. Although if you are kkw tkd there are definately ways of doing things that would not be say,traditional moo duk kwan.

That is correct the KKW does not ever interfer with ones training add or take away and they are fine with it.

[KarateMomUSA]

1 steps for green belts in the ITF, are the continuation of 3 step & step sparring, making up pre-arranged sparring, which is 1 of the 6 types of ITF sparring, not including tournament sports sparring. When trained as designed, with the approriate purposes, they are all valuable tools for TKD fighting.
Also Hoosinsul or self defense, which comes in at 2nd Kup red belt level, is not included in the above 6 types of sparring either.
TKD training, especially the 6 types of sparring & self defense, must be trained with realisim, if we are to derive a protection benefit

[searcher]

For me, it depends on whether the "follow up" is single technique or multiple. It is to rare to get someone stopped with a single technique.

[KarateMomUSA]

For me, it depends on whether the "follow up" is single technique or multiple. It is to rare to get someone stopped with a single technique.Yes but in the ITF the requirement is for only 1 counter. That is not only for the 1 blow to finish a fight type of thing, but also to reflect what would happen in the street, as the attacker will not stand still & present a target for you to hit. So 1 step is literally the 1st step of the actual combat encounter. There are other ITF drills & other types of sparring that work on building combos etc

[searcher]

Yes but in the ITF the requirement is for only 1 counter. That is not only for the 1 blow to finish a fight type of thing, but also to reflect what would happen in the street, as the attacker will not stand still & present a target for you to hit. So 1 step is literally the 1st step of the actual combat encounter. There are other ITF drills & other types of sparring that work on building combos etc


I very much understand the ITF's requirements and their use of 1 step sparring.

But thanks.

[leadleg]

The best thing about one steps would be learning to move off line before countering,no matter the technique,this is always a constant.

[Tez3]

We teach one and three step but the attacks and defences aren't pre-set. You have to make your defence then and there, not rely on something that's already been made up for you. After all you don't have rehearsed attacks outside training so why have them in training? The defences may not look pretty and standardised but they work, any defence can be used including throws, locks, anything. You aren't expected to keep repeating the moves either, you have to make them all different.
If you don't defend, the punch gets through and you get hurt so it's a big incentitive to defend.

[KarateMomUSA]

Yes but in the ITF the requirement is for only 1 counter. That is not only for the 1 blow to finish a fight type of thing, but also to reflect what would happen in the street, as the attacker will not stand still & present a target for you to hit. So 1 step is literally the 1st step of the actual combat encounter. There are other ITF drills & other types of sparring that work on building combos etc
I think it is also important to understand that 3 step sparring in the ITF is for white belts, while 2 step sparring is for yellow belts & 1 step sparring is for green belts. Taken together they are the 3 parts of pre-arranged sparring, which is only 1 type of the 6 types of sparring that the ITF does. This does not include their tournament sports sparring, which would be 7, but sport is not fighting.
This step sparring is a prelude to actual free sparring, which in the ITF is like (almost) everything goes fighting. It is the way that Gen Choi put into motion how to teach fighting & the concepts that a fighter needs to know. So once a student is a blue belt, there is little reason to do step sparring, as they are supposed to concentrate on real fighting, using skills & concepts learned in step sparring (or sparring in steps).

Now is the ITF the only ones that do 2 step sparring?

From what I have seen, the WTF or maybe I should say the non-ITF TKD students do 3 & 1 steps just like karate does. Am I mistaken or missing something?