Where Do You Draw the Line at Profanity?

[dancingalone]

Would you use or allow the use of these words in your dojang?

ass
piss
*****
sucks
gay (in the pejorative sense rather than just a description of sexuality)

I hear these words daily on the tv now in normal mainstream network programming and was wondering if they have entered polite society as acceptable words in our vocabulary.

[dancingalone]

*****


How funny. The five letter word for 'female dog' made the profanity filter, but the others did not. I guess that's one vote for nixing that word.

[Tez3]

Would you use or allow the use of these words in your dojang?

ass
piss
*****
sucks
gay (in the pejorative sense rather than just a description of sexuality)

I hear these words daily on the tv now in normal mainstream network programming and was wondering if they have entered polite society as acceptable words in our vocabulary.

We don't use ass, we use arse, though we will say someone is making an ass of himself but that refers to the animal.
Piss in usually used with 'poor' as in piss poor performance, a common army expression is poor preparation and planning makes piss poor performance.... 'the 6 Ps'

Female dog, not used often, usually cow is used if calling names.

'Sucks' has a sexual connotation here, doesn't mean what you mean it as.

Our TV and films have far worse words, the F and C word along with others is used on television a fair bit without anyone taking a lot of notice as long as it isn't on early so it tends to mean the words on OP don;t mean an awful as profanities.

[granfire]

Would you use or allow the use of these words in your dojang?

ass
piss
*****
sucks
gay (in the pejorative sense rather than just a description of sexuality)

I hear these words daily on the tv now in normal mainstream network programming and was wondering if they have entered polite society as acceptable words in our vocabulary.


In the US context they are a no-go.
And I am no prude, I know pretty much all the words not in the dictionary...but it is just not necessary, no matter what TV says (I am not watching a lot of TV anymore either...)

[jthomas1600]

I guess different schools foster different environments. I've been doing a little training while I'm at work (I work a long way from home) and the classes are 100% adult blue color men. The conversation can be pretty rough. When I'm home the tkd school I train at has such an environment that I don't believe I've ever let slip with a four letter word nor have I heard anyone else. It's all about context.

[Sukerkin]

For me personally, profanity is still used so very sparsely that if I swear then the words actually have the 'shock' value they are meant to have.

In the dojo tho', swearing is largely unthinkable. It is not an evironment where the profane word is to be encouraged.

About the only time I will use some of the weaker words is when 'role playing' a reaction whilst demonstrating some point of a kata.

[Tez3]

There is a fair bit of swearing goes on in our training, the lads are mostly soldiers so it's a bit like trying to damn a flood telling them not to swear and they are very inventive with it. Having said that though, when talking to me or in front of the children they do make efforts to moderate their speech but on the whole I just ignore it but I do appreicate it when they try not to swear. that goes for work too, if I'm in a gaurdroom I don't worry about it but I won't tolerate been sworn at.

[granfire]

It seems to be the macho language... :lol:

[Stac3y]

I don't use any of them, but I've been known to cut loose with a four letter word or two when a bone gets broken.

[granfire]

I don't use any of them, but I've been known to cut loose with a four letter word or two when a bone gets broken.

nah, really? :lfao:

I think they lose their impact when used to often.

(hey preacher, how the fu are you doing this d*** Sunday...)

[terryl965]

I have no tolerant for any curse words, in my world proper words are the norm. I know now a days certain words are acceptable to alot of people but inside my school it is like my little world we will have the respect and common curtesy that has been for century. Being able to control yourself in any circunstance is the Martial way, not being able to is a thug way.

[StudentCarl]

None is allowed.
We have students from 6-60 years old, and there is no situation that such language improves. It lacks courtesy and self-control, though I agree that a single word, maybe two will be ignored when bones are broken. We don't see testosterone as an excuse.

[Tez3]

Just because people swear doesn't actually mean they lack respect funnily enough. In certain professions language that is not acceptable anywhere else is the norm, it's not testosterone, it's a matter of everyday usage of words. It's nothing special, soldiers language has been the same for many centuries, I don't think anyone actually cares unless you are very prudish or it's directed at you personally. Civilians always tend to be shocked at their military though lol.

[granfire]

Just because people swear doesn't actually mean they lack respect funnily enough. In certain professions language that is not acceptable anywhere else is the norm, it's not testosterone, it's a matter of everyday usage of words. It's nothing special, soldiers language has been the same for many centuries, I don't think anyone actually cares unless you are very prudish or it's directed at you personally. Civilians always tend to be shocked at their military though lol.

LOL, professional language! :lfao:

It is true I suppose. I mean 'swearing like a sailor' is the often used phrase.
Kind of reminds me of when my mom used to work on the Urology ward in the hospital. The 'professional language' was a bit more crude I suppose...then one day she told the Jehova's witness or a Mormon, or who ever was peddling the little booklets and faith to 'shove it under the foreskin', a poor pale religious person stumbled backwards into the elevator, never to be seen again...poor mom did not realize what she had told the guy until it was out tho. But years later it's still good for a laugh.


But it is a good reminder of how versatile language is.

A friend of mine was raised Mennonite. If she had used gosh darn, she would have gotten her hide tanned just as bad as if she had said the real thing. On the other hand '*****' was even used by the preacher. I mean, small wonder, with most of them being farm people, it happens, you shovel it, no big deal.

The she moved down south, you can't say God, but gosh is ok, you say '*****' people faint...


***** means the 's' word for poop...

[StudentCarl]

Just because people swear doesn't actually mean they lack respect funnily enough. In certain professions language that is not acceptable anywhere else is the norm, it's not testosterone, it's a matter of everyday usage of words. It's nothing special, soldiers language has been the same for many centuries, I don't think anyone actually cares unless you are very prudish or it's directed at you personally. Civilians always tend to be shocked at their military though lol.

That 'everyday usage' is that culture. It's okay in some settings but not in others. I'm a veteran of the infantry, and have talked that language. It's fine 'with the guys', but not around the families and some other settings. Part of self-control is acting appropriately within the setting you're in at the moment. Part of courtesy is being respectful of others' norms of behavior when you're a guest. Just because you cuss like a sailor doesn't make that acceptable when you visit your mother for holiday dinner. I'll agree that civilians tend not to understand the military life, but sometimes soldiers need to change their talk when they change their clothes.

[Manny]

Would you use or allow the use of these words in your dojang?

ass
piss
*****
sucks
gay (in the pejorative sense rather than just a description of sexuality)

I hear these words daily on the tv now in normal mainstream network programming and was wondering if they have entered polite society as acceptable words in our vocabulary.

NEVER.

Manny

[Stac3y]

I have no tolerant for any curse words, in my world proper words are the norm. I know now a days certain words are acceptable to alot of people but inside my school it is like my little world we will have the respect and common curtesy that has been for century. Being able to control yourself in any circunstance is the Martial way, not being able to is a thug way.

Yes, but "even the sage screams when he is devoured by the tiger." :wink2: When my rib was broken during the first hour of three (yes, we sparred for 3 hours, with a 5 minute break at the top of each hour) at my black belt test, I hollered, "****!" and hit the ground. Then I got back up and fought the rest of the time. I didn't cry, or puke, or quit, so I feel my control was more than adequate.

[StudentCarl]

Yes, but "even the sage screams when he is devoured by the tiger." :wink2: When my rib was broken during the first hour of three (yes, we sparred for 3 hours, with a 5 minute break at the top of each hour) at my black belt test, I hollered, "****!" and hit the ground. Then I got back up and fought the rest of the time. I didn't cry, or puke, or quit, so I feel my control was more than adequate.

And I'll bet nobody said 'boo' either. Your self-control was clear, and a fine contrast to someone with a needless case of potty mouth. Nowadays I teach high school, and the common message to kids is to think about where you are when you choose your words.

[Tez3]

That 'everyday usage' is that culture. It's okay in some settings but not in others. I'm a veteran of the infantry, and have talked that language. It's fine 'with the guys', but not around the families and some other settings. Part of self-control is acting appropriately within the setting you're in at the moment. Part of courtesy is being respectful of others' norms of behavior when you're a guest. Just because you cuss like a sailor doesn't make that acceptable when you visit your mother for holiday dinner. I'll agree that civilians tend not to understand the military life, but sometimes soldiers need to change their talk when they change their clothes.


However my club is a military environment, we aren't 'outside'.

[Ken Morgan]

Someone already mentioned context. That really is it.
It all depends on who I am with at the time. I find when I’m around certain rougher friends, the colourful language comes out. Around children, strangers and those who I know never use such language, it stays away. In the dojo it never comes out.

[StudentCarl]

However my club is a military environment, we aren't 'outside'.

Yep, you've mentioned that before. I wouldn't expect any different. When you're 'inside', that kind of language is normal. It would actually be more uncomfortable for them if they couldn't talk that way.

But the distinction is worth making. I'm in a suburban community with lots of kids attending. Most of the adults are parents of the kids.

[granfire]

However my club is a military environment, we aren't 'outside'.


I am actually kind of jealous.

hubby works as lead man in a government installation, he has to bite his tongue every turn so the union won't have his hide, for cussing at the workers or say anything that might hurt their wittle feelings...

So I am stuck with his penned up frustrations.
If I had a penny for every 'bad word' he uttered today (only afternoon, mind you) I had the money for the meet-up...

I wish he could leave it at work....

[Cirdan]

Well agressive and arrogant behavior is not tolerated, nor is calling people names. When the younger kids are not around however the language can get a bit rough and we tell a lot jokes some people might consider "inappropriate". It is perfectly normal for our sensai to tell the class something like "Your kiai sounds like moaning from a bad german porn movie!". (She is a woman by the way) Considering that we are spending long hours studying the finer mechanics of inflicting harm on other living beings, I think a bit of rough humor serves an important function in letting out some stress. Wrapping a martial art in political corectness just can`t be done IMHO. Doesn`t mean we aren`t nice and decent people ;)



Civilians always tend to be shocked at their military though lol.

Indeed. We had a huge media frenzy here when one boy returning from Afghanistan told the press that he thought klling was better than sex.

[granfire]

killing is better than sex? now that is disturbing...
(or he just needed a more exiting GF)

[Cirdan]

killing is better than sex? now that is disturbing...
(or he just needed a more exiting GF)

Perhaps she can dress up in a tow.. I mean turban and with an AK-47 in the bedroom now that he is home.

"Allahu akbarr, die you infidel! BLAM BLAM!"

[granfire]

"this is my Rifle, this is my gun...."

[StudentCarl]

...he thought killing was better than sex...

Sounds like too much experience with one and not enough with the other.

[Tez3]

Well agressive and arrogant behavior is not tolerated, nor is calling people names. When the younger kids are not around however the language can get a bit rough and we tell a lot jokes some people might consider "inappropriate". It is perfectly normal for our sensai to tell the class something like "Your kiai sounds like moaning from a bad german porn movie!". (She is a woman by the way) Considering that we are spending long hours studying the finer mechanics of inflicting harm on other living beings, I think a bit of rough humor serves an important function in letting out some stress. Wrapping a martial art in political corectness just can`t be done IMHO. Doesn`t mean we aren`t nice and decent people ;)




Indeed. We had a huge media frenzy here when one boy returning from Afghanistan told the press that he thought klling was better than sex.

Well that's not I had in mind, that is disturbing. Our soldiers don't talk like that I must admit, with them it's more the sense of humour they develop which enables them to cope with the horrors of war.

I think you are correct about the point of martial arts is to inflict harm albeit in self defence, we can't pretend that by being overly polite and politically correct to each other that's not what it's for. I think again this is a western thing dressing it up to be an eastern thing which I doubt it is.

When we train it isn't bad langauge and coarseness, they aren't like that, it just as I said the sense of humour and the odd swear word when someone is hurt. they aren't rough and ready, they are soldiers who at the moment are still recovering from being in Afghan. I've never heard any of them say anything about killing.
There's different words here in the UK that are considered swear words in some parts of the country but not in others, some words Americans use are considered rude which they don't. I would tell a child off and glare at an adult if they used the word 'fanny' which is inappropriate here. some words which we use I think Americans find rude. It's all in the ear of the person hearing it!

[granfire]

LOL, fanny...

so I guess 'fanny pack' get's that part of the body into trouble?

yes, language is flexible.

Around here, you say the 's' word for poop, people get the vapors while accepting goll darn, a friend of mine raise Mennonite was flabbergasted 'even the preacher said s****, if I had said goll darn they would have beaten be with in an inch of my life, just as if I had said the real thing'

[Tez3]

LOL, fanny...

so I guess 'fanny pack' get's that part of the body into trouble?

yes, language is flexible.

Around here, you say the 's' word for poop, people get the vapors while accepting goll darn, a friend of mine raise Mennonite was flabbergasted 'even the preacher said s****, if I had said goll darn they would have beaten be with in an inch of my life, just as if I had said the real thing'


Well put it this way, it applies to girls only and if they wore a fanny pack it would only be at the front!

The s word isn't rude at all and it surprises me that it's censored on here, the female dog word isn't rude either. I think there's only two words that are considered swearing here and thats the two four lettered ones beiginning with F and C. The C word and 'fanny' are the same here, only men tend to use the c word and hardly ever in front of decent women and of course children. I can't think of any words other than those two that are considered bad. could be I don;t hear that many lol.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Would you use or allow the use of these words in your dojang?

ass
piss
*****
sucks
gay (in the pejorative sense rather than just a description of sexuality)

All are off limits with the exception of sucks, which I discourage but will not scold for.

Regarding gay, there is no discussion of sexuality in my classes, period. So in fairness, I have never 'banned' it because it has never come up. I have no clue of the gender preferrences of my students and frankly do not care to know, so pejorative terms in that regard will be greeted with a healty serving of knuckle pushups if it ever comes up.

If a technique is being done incorrectly or poorly, there is proper terminology to describe the errancy of the technique and I expect those in class to use it.

If they want to talk like middle schoolers, they may do so on their own time. There is really no good reason for any of the quoted terminology to be used in a martial arts setting.


I hear these words daily on the tv now in normal mainstream network programming and was wondering if they have entered polite society as acceptable words in our vocabulary.
I consider mainstream television programming to be neither polite nor acceptable for the most part and certainly not a barometer of what is polite or acceptable. Mainstream television airs mostly "reality" programs that highlight bad behavior and insipid talk shows that display the absolute worst aspects of human behavior in the guise of dialogue.

Turning off the television would vastly improve our nation in and of itself.

Daniel

[Tez3]

The word piss here I don't think is seen as a rude or profane word, it's just a word for urinating or being drunk. It's a very old word.
'Sucks' doesn't get used the way American use it.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A753527

"This is a subject which fills books, and has a word all of its own: what you have been reading is a brief outline of English scatolinguistics. One of the things which becomes clear is that usage varies widely from country to country, and within countries. In one place a word may be a term of affection, in another a clear and direct term of abuse. And these words provide a potted social history of the speakers of the English Language. However, used appropriately and with panache, many people feel that these words actually add depth, colour and a sense of regional variation to the English language."

[ETinCYQX]

My Judo sensei and the guys who train there are lifelong friends of mine and my parents, and they swear like pirates. We have a big crowd from MMA and the guys seem to cater to that a bit; they let the formality go in favor of instruction. It's an enjoyable class and it makes getting beat for the hundredth time by a guy I've known for years a bit easier. I'm also one of the youngest at 18 years old.

My TKD instructor is different. He's never said anything, but I get the "vibe" off him that he should be taken seriously and he likes to have a formal setting to learn. However, he treats me like an equal, and on the occasion he has me instruct another student (I'm senior belt right now) he refers to me as "Mr. Mylastname." I really appreciate this treatment and it means more to me when it's coupled with such respect and formality, almost like that reverence, if you will, is extended back to me. He is Korean by descent so that may have something to do with it.

I do have to say that we are friends now, we run together and we do some things socially. One thing I enjoy is his "Korean movie nights", he orders Korean movies on DVD and we watch them with English subtitles. It's improved my conversational Korean a lot and given me insight on Korean culture that I'd never seen before.

Neither is wrong, and it's hard to say which I like better. I like each for different reasons.

[Touch Of Death]

Teens in Washington like to call everything they don't like, Jew. I would flip if I heared that in the studio.
Sean

[granfire]

Teens in Washington like to call everything they don't like, Jew. I would flip if I heared that in the studio.
Sean

add a gay and we got a winner... :uhohh::uhohh:

[Touch Of Death]

All are off limits with the exception of sucks, which I discourage but will not scold for.

Regarding gay, there is no discussion of sexuality in my classes, period. So in fairness, I have never 'banned' it because it has never come up. I have no clue of the gender preferrences of my students and frankly do not care to know, so pejorative terms in that regard will be greeted with a healty serving of knuckle pushups if it ever comes up.

If a technique is being done incorrectly or poorly, there is proper terminology to describe the errancy of the technique and I expect those in class to use it.

If they want to talk like middle schoolers, they may do so on their own time. There is really no good reason for any of the quoted terminology to be used in a martial arts setting.


I consider mainstream television programming to be neither polite nor acceptable for the most part and certainly not a barometer of what is polite or acceptable. Mainstream television airs mostly "reality" programs that highlight bad behavior and insipid talk shows that display the absolute worst aspects of human behavior in the guise of dialogue.

Turning off the television would vastly improve our nation in and of itself.

DanielThe youth of today have turned off the TV; they just watch stuff, without those pesky FCC regulations, on the computer.
Sean

[granfire]

The youth of today have turned off the TV; they just watch stuff, without those pesky FCC regulations, on the computer.
Sean

rofl, ain't that the truth...then again, can't blame them TV sux...

;)

[gobbly]

Just watch the instructors and other students. If you hear them say something and no one raises an eyebrow, figure it's ok for you in similar situations. This is just natural social behavior. When you get in a new group, be on your best behavior. How you behave as you become more comfortable can easily be influenced by how you observe the group acting.

I am in a class with nothing but adults, mostly 18 to mid 30's. Sometimes when I fall or miss something I will say damn, I doubt anyone but my drill partner hears, and no one has ever seemed to care. I was told by a senior student after she observed a form I was working on that my 'stances sucked', so I worked on it. I could see how some people might be offended, but she knew me well enough to know that I appreciate blunt feedback and chose words that would get the proper focus out of me (and she was probably smiling while she said it :D).

[jda]

There is no swearing, cursing, or name calling of any kind allowed in our dojang. We have a wide range of ages and that language is never appropriate. When the black belts are together for our private workouts we speak like normal people, though.
Jim

[seasoned]

At my mouth. Slang/profanity has no place in the dojo where you are trying to teach tools that will help one to achieve the best life has to offer. Total waste of words, only enhanced to the negative, by some of the trash on TV.

[sfs982000]

Someone already mentioned context. That really is it.
It all depends on who I am with at the time. I find when I’m around certain rougher friends, the colourful language comes out. Around children, strangers and those who I know never use such language, it stays away. In the dojo it never comes out.

I couldn't agree more. I'm far from a prude and when I'm at work the "sentence enhancers" flow freely, but at home around my kids and in the dojang/dojo I clean my language up. I like to tell folks that I get all my swearing out at work so I'm nice and docile when I get home.

[Namii]

no swearing allowed in our dojang either. I may have let out "sucks" a time or two. The classes are all ages. We all behave and have never had a problem with foul mouths. Outside of the dojang I have heard Sabumnim curse but there were only adults present at the time.
I myself swear very little even after being in the military.

[ATC]

No swearing is permitted at all. No one should be calling anyone any derogatory names whatsoever. However kids of today have there own way of talking and will call a situation or something gay or even say that a situation may suck. For example, one might say "I got a C on my test at school today", and someone else may respond by saying "Sorry to hear that, that must suck" or simply "that sucks".

We don't use ass at all. We will say cungdingy (spelling sorry) as the Korean term for butt. "Ow!!! he hit me in my cungdingy!!!"

[msmitht]

The use of profanity or inapropriate, degrading language is prohibited in the dojang. The same goes for talking down to anyone. The only thing that separates everyone at the dojang is time. Time alive and time in training.
There is only taekwondo training and discussion of it!

[Balrog]

I swear like a drunken sailor on my own time. But profanity is not allowed in my school, even from me. I screwed up and said "****!" in class last week and then stopped and said, "Oops - that was a bozo no-no", dropped and did 20 pushups (the entire class dropped and did them with me, even though I did not ask them to). When I finished, I stood up and said, "The rules apply to everyone, even me."

Good learning experience for all.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I swear like a drunken sailor on my own time. But profanity is not allowed in my school, even from me. I screwed up and said "****!" in class last week and then stopped and said, "Oops - that was a bozo no-no", dropped and did 20 pushups (the entire class dropped and did them with me, even though I did not ask them to). When I finished, I stood up and said, "The rules apply to everyone, even me."

Good learning experience for all.
Now that, Sir, is leading by example!

Daniel

[MA-Caver]

Where I draw the line personally at profanity is something along the lines of Scarface or Good Fellas usage. Where it's in every other word in a sentence. I mean c'mon. To me profanity is to empathize something... albeit it's vulgar but it does put a sense of THIS is what I MEANT. Or use to convey total disdain at an idea or concept, i.e. someone suggesting that I'm trying to rip them off and my response is aww f-you (for being so ridiculous). In my former job I had to of course watch my language with prudence. In dealing with several hundred people daily on my tours I had to ensure that I would not let slip any words that may be deemed offensive, including racial, religious, ethnic or just downright vulgarity. The use of such language is always, ALWAYS a choice. None of this "heck man that's just the way I talk." B.S. I don't condone anyone under the age of 18 to use the language. I don't like it. It's literally to me an adult language and thereby should only be used by adults. Watching a movie where a kid spouts off expletives is a turn off for me. The shock value isn't there for me. It all depends upon who I'm with. If the person isn't offended then I'll still be selective on it's usage because as George Carlin once said: Language gives you away, how you use it and what you use helps determines your level of civility towards another person. Ironic words from one of America's most vulgar comics. Keeping a civil tongue to me is the hallmark of good upbringing, personality, civility. Changing one's language to where they do not speak vulgar words to me is somewhat hypocritical, my older brother who taught me a lot of my vulgar vocabulary now speaks in a non-vulgar language. "Oh my gosh!" "What the heck!" "I think that's just flipping stupid" and so forth. Replacing a vulgar word with a non-vulgar one is still to me being vulgar. The intent and connotation is just the same, just not as grating to one's ears no matter how sensitive or insensitive they may be.